getting into S&T
COMPARATIVELY, is sales and trading harder to get into than other parts of investmant banking? what part of banking is the hardest/easiest to get into?
COMPARATIVELY, is sales and trading harder to get into than other parts of investmant banking? what part of banking is the hardest/easiest to get into?
+21 | Should make a move in the early stage?(TLDR) | 1 | 2d | |
+18 | How to become a Real Time Power Trader? | 5 | 7h | |
+12 | Base salaries for BB S&T? | 0 | 1h | |
+12 | dwindling hopes of Commodity Trading | 3 | 1d | |
+9 | How long does it take to be an independent structurer | 1 | 3d | |
+6 | Wells Fargo Fixed Income vs TD Securities Fixed Income | 7 | 3h | |
+5 | LNG Trade Shops | 3 | 1d | |
+3 | Summer Intern Projects | 0 | 47m | |
+3 | MS Fixed Income Superday? | 2 | 4h | |
+2 | Trading: JP NYC vs Wells Charlotte | 4 | 2d |
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Not at all. All FO positions I'd say are equally challenging to break into. They're just different.
It's a difficult comparison, apples to oranges, in the sense that more kids apply to IB than to S&T. But on a "total number of positions available" for first year analysts, IB has far more openings. In many cases, you wont even have a chance to get onto your preferred desk in S&T regardless of whether you're the best recruit in the class, simply because we dont have room to take you. (IB groups take new kids every year for essentially every group due to the 2 year nature of the role)
For example, this year's rookie class had about 200 kids in IB. And over 25% were in the Industrials group. Wanna take a guess as to how many kids we hired to FX?
How many? Either 0 or 1 I'd guess? Not to mention that's for the bank with likely the biggest FX desk on the street.
The recruiting for both about equally difficult imo, but like FX said its often very difficult to get the exact desk you want, mostly because the need is a lot more difficult to predict.
Why is FX recruiting so low?
The simple answer is because turnover is relatively low. FX desks (especially on the trading/structuring side) are typically very, very lean. Also, in market turmoil, they tend to bring in the most revenue for firms so they never really suffer from the massive layoffs that affect other areas of S&T.
Revsly, yeah we hired 2 kids: 1 to trading, 1 to structuring.
OP, you changed your question but the answer is still the same. Comparatively it's the same level of difficulty for getting into S&T and IB, but if you ask group/desk specific questions like: "what's more difficult, getting onto the FX S&T desk or getting into Industrials in IB?" the answer is hands-down FX S&T (since in this case, 2 kids out of the entire S&T applicant pool got an offer)
That makes sense, thanks for the info! I was aspiring to pursue a career in FX-Options Trading at DB or CS, but I guess I'd have to reconsider.
Since you've added some valuable insight I have three more questions:
1) What are some of the easiest and most difficult trading desks to set foot into? (Please list in order of easiness to arduousness)
2) Are trading desks dominated by nerdy types (the ones who have a favorite excel function), or the frat guy types?
3) If I had to double-major, which combination of degrees would be ideal for breaking into and thriving at trading (at a commendable target school, of course): Economics, Mathematics, Statistics, Finance.
Thanks for the replies guys. As for DB & CS, I heard DB is the market leader when it comes to FX markets, hence I thought it would have been a rational extension to assume that they'd be stellar when it comes to FX Options.
Commodities trading seems to be quite interesting as well. Is Commod trading automated?
Breaking Into S&T? (Originally Posted: 09/12/2013)
Advice.
The UGA Honors program places very well in the Southeast. You shouldn't have a problem getting an interview with Wells, BAML, STRH, etc... You probably have a decent shot at landing something in NYC as well. Your language skills could defiitnely help you land something in LatAM if that's something you're interested in doing.
I second kingtut. You really won't have a problem. Reach out to high level UGA alumni in the industry. You def have the right background.
How are your quant skills (stats/econ/math)? These are pretty important/valued if you want to trade/research EM FX, rates, sov credit ($ and local). I think fundamental research focused on EM might be a good fit for you if you're not a quant jock- look at asset managers as well as banks for EM/Latam equities and corporate credit roles (get the technicals balance sheet/income statement junky etc- down for this as well- not hard given your background).
At the end of the day it is all about networking! If you can find Georgia Alums at some BB in NYC I bet they would love to have another Bulldog around and would put you in touch with the right people, pass along your resume, etc.
I third kingtut. Consider coming to NYC & reaching out to the LATAM shops as well as the BB's.
Getting into S&T with unsuccessful prop trading experience. (Originally Posted: 01/23/2016)
After graduating from university I joined a prop trading firm where I was trading equity and bond futures. I was doing really well in the first 4-5 months, but then I started losing money and eventually quit the firm. I currently work in a different field, however I missed working in the markets. I will be applying for masters in Quantitative Finance/Financial Engineering next year (2017). After graduation I want to go into FX/Derivatives/Structured products S&T or maybe become a quant. Will my unsuccessful trading experience at prop trading firm impact my ability to get a S&T job at BB after graduation?
I want to add that I successfully traded FOREX for almost 4 years, generating more than 80% annual return for 3 consecutive years.
Also, I will be applying in Europe: London, Geneva, Frankfurt etc
Thanks in advance.
Quantnet.com will be able to help you.
ugh
what's wrong with that? I will be honest, I risked more capital (not the usual 3%) on unexpected rate cuts. So 80% is an underestimation.
Advice: getting into first-year S&T now? (Originally Posted: 06/10/2010)
Hey guys,
I just graduated from undergrad from an Ivy school. I majored in psychology (yeah I know right?) and minored in Finance, my major choice is because I liked the subject matter and I listened to the stupid brochures the registrar sends that said "study what you're interested in, don't just do it for the job." Then go figure I start my minor, I get interested in finance, and now I'm that "soft science" guy who has to compete with the 3.8 econs for positions.
Anyway during OCR, I applied mostly to BB IDBs and some AM firms, didn't really network much (OCR sort of takes the pressure off kids to network I think), and had some interviews and superdays, but nothing panned out. Fast-forward to now, summer is starting and I'm jobless.
So my question is, what are the chances for getting into a trading desk now? I've done the research and I think I would prefer trading to AM or IB, but I'm under the impression that trading is a lot harder to get into than those other two industries if you didn't get on a BB desk in October.
I finished with a 3.3 GPA and no finance work experience whatsoever, but had a pretty solid academic background (derivatives, long/short, valuation, DCF, black-scholes, did some behavioral finance modeling). Do I have any shot of landing a trading desk now, or should I plan more long-term and start looking at B-school or some other industry first?
Even if there is an opening now you probably won't get an interview. You got to be on someone's radar when it opportunities come up. Since you don't really have an network...it would be difficult.
Step 1- Find a prop shop. Even if you make pennies from commissions. Learn Learn Learn the market. Step 2- Build your network. You should meet w/ an alum once a week for a beer. Keep pushing to get in front of people.
Step 3- You have some trading experience. Now call on your network.
You from Princeton?
Advice Needed - Getting into S&T (Originally Posted: 05/31/2010)
I start business school at Notre Dame in August (graduating 2012). I graduated from Rice University in 2008 (econ major) and, since then, have been working for a large corporation that really is not related to finance or banking in any way. I want to switch careers to get into S&T (in NYC specifically) and decided that getting my MBA was really my only shot at doing that. My undergrad GPA was pretty strong (3.7) and GMAT 740, although only a Q- 47.
Will banks hire an MBA without prior banking/finance experience? What S&T positions are available for someone of my profile? Any specific advice with regards to applying? I assume I will have a better shot at the boutique banks rather than BBs...
I know this is a very ambiguous, open-ended quesiton, but I will take ANY helpful advice I can get.
Thanks a lot.
I have a question. I suppose this is going out to everyone in the field or interested in the field. Whenever I see S&T mentioned I get the feeling that it is trading rather than sales which interests people. Right or wrong?
I think you should be fine. Some desks might want someone with more quant skills, whatever. There will be plenty of S&T opportunities for someone from a top MBA. I would start networking now with people in the industry.
i would actually like to get on the sales side of a energy trading firm
You and me both Monty.
Shaker,
I think you will have a good opportunity of landing a summer associate role within the BB's. Notre Dame has good street cred and I have met many alumni (undergrad mostly) that work within S&T at my bank (one of the top BB's). Typically firms do not care what industry you were in before your MBA program, they care more about the impact you made and your leadership potential.
Start networking with sales/traders at the various banks in NYC as soon as you start school in August (via email/phone) and then be sure to make a trip to NYC before recruiting begins. To answer the other part of your question, you will have a shot at any of the desks other than the quant areas.
Getting into S&T with non-S&T work experience (Originally Posted: 07/09/2012)
I've spent about 5 years working at a hedge fund since graduating college. My role has been a variation of Ops. I'm at the point where I'm looking to do something different, and have been back and forth between IBD and S&T. I know the obvious IBD path - bschool, internship, associate FT position. S&T I know is a bit different. Some people obviously go the bschool route for it, but I've heard more times than not that the skills learned from an MBA really aren't necessary for S&T.
My question is what are some ways to get into S&T from my position? I'm not coming directly out of school (ugrad or grad) with recruiting. My background is highly quantitative (math/chem degree, good gpa, great math gpa). Since it isn't as set in stone at IBD recruiting, what sort of positions would be available? Similarly, I have a good friend whose father is head of a BB trading group. This is a networking opportunity I'd love to take advantage of, but I haven't acted yet because I'm not sure what they might be able to do or specifically what sort of position to ask for. Any advice?
Networking, you should most certainly reach out to your friends father. How about at your hedge fund, can you network with traders and PM's there? Make the internal move to a junior trader
I do speak with a few of the traders and should probably take better advantage of trying to network. My biggest question is what position(s) should I ultimately be trying for? Would I be fighting for a spot in the associate level recruiting, despite not having a graduate degree, or do banks hire random one-off people throughout the year?
Grind hard and work on those soft skills you develop from talking with your traders/pms (Not pestering them but deal with their ish). Prob the pinnacle of skills you get in the BO (atleast what i've noticed).
Any thought on the type of position or title I'd be looking for? Would I drop all the way back to an analyst roll, on par with all the kids right out of college, or will they train for more associate level so I'd be on par with my age group and (overall) experience?
i've seen guys with your background move into s&t roles but not glamor seats. i.e. repo sales, bills trader, dealer sales. they aren't prestigious and you won't become a PM (at least not directly) but it is a front office S&T role.
buddy up to your traders (particularly execution guys), grab beers, explain it to them. the execution guys are more likely to be former-BO guys who made the jump but anyone who's sympathetic can help. one call from the right guy can get you an interview. ask your friend to grab coffee or a drink with his dad. tell him how well you did in school blah blah, but more importantly how hard you've worked and what you've done on the side to learn about markets (reading, talking to guys, building sheets - you can't fake this btw.) tell him you're desperate to move and will take anything. he'll usually either shop your resume around or level with you that no one's hiring (which no one is).
the best time of year to do this is feb/march when people need to fill seats and new analysts haven't started yet.
also - make sure you're perceived as the BEST BO guy in your group/firm. there's honestly nothing worse than hearing some mediocre kid moan about wanting a better seat when he can barely fill the one he's in.
I've been trying to get into S&T as well, basically as a Junior Trader or would take a TA position at a smaller firm. When talking to people they always stressed that I should have a focus. Know what product I want to trade (or sell) and make sure I thoroughly know it.
Bear - Thanks for the great post. I'll do my best to network. The desk at my firm is about 4 guys and they're primarily execution. I'm not sure any of them really have previous BB trading experience, and the one or two that might I don't know well. In terms of my work, I say it's similar to Ops because it's the closest blanket group I can think of, but I don't do traditional Ops at all. It's tough to give much detail without being overly specific and I'd rather not post that online. It's a mix of Ops/Accounting/Other, heavily in the Other. What I work on no one else in the company touches. My manager is basically a CFO.
Bobb - That's what I'm trying to figure out. I'm unfortunately having a difficult time finding a good breakdown of different roles w/in trading and some details on them. For IB, on the other hand, I found it very easy to find breakdowns to levels like M&A, Lev Fin, ECM, etc. Any advice on a source of info for trading?
My gut says I don't want sales. I don't see myself as a sales guy. So I'm leaning toward the trading end, which I know is still very broad. I'm personally a fan of options, but I'm not familiar with the more specialized roles banks will have.
Switching into S&T (Originally Posted: 05/16/2007)
What is the best way to swtich within a BB from wealth management to trading?
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How do i get into S&T (Originally Posted: 10/17/2012)
So ive just completed my bachelor degree and working at a wirehouse (think baby commercial) anyway... I have no clue as to what my next step is. Im in the inter mountain west area (USA think Romney ) and have no networks outside to get into S&T. what is my best course of action? where do I begin should I go for MBA (which i was going to do anyway) to get into S&T.. what are chances .. Thoughts?
,
You're in a rough position. Networking would likely not be enough, even if you had a large network. S&T is shrinking at the moment. Offer rates are low for SAs, and FT hiring is almost non-existent, from what I have seen.
You could do a MBA, but I think you might be well served by a MSF or MFE. A lot of the more quantitative programs place well into S&T. TNA's website (msfhq.com) is a great resource.
Career switch into S&T (College Junior) (Originally Posted: 02/12/2013)
I'm a college junior from a top 10 school with an offer from Goldman in Tech. Lately I've been reading a lot about S&T, and it seems like something i'd be interested in. What are my chances of landing a job in S&T after graduation next year? I understand that it's near impossible to move from the back office to the front office, but I'm willing to put in the work. Would applying to business school be a better option for me?
S&T = Sales and trading? When you refer to 'Tech', do you mean Tech IBD or Internal Technology?
Yes I mean Sales & Trading. When I say Tech I mean the Technology Division, not IBD.
Gotcha. As an intern this summer, if you network like crazy and just reach out to some folks in IBD (maybe TMT?) you might be able to line yourself up to get a gig there.
I know less about S&T, only that 'sales' is very different now, much smaller, and lots of sales traders / research sales folks are looking for other jobs. IBD does offer great exit opps, esp from GS or MS.
In regards to business school, you will need to work a couple of years first before you can go do a MBA. It's extremely rare to go straight from undergrad to business school as practically all of the top schools require work experience. You could do a MFE which can open doors to S&T as well and it's more feasible to go direct from undergrad there than it is for a MBA degree.
The difficulty associated with moving from back-office to front-office is more applicable for people who are working full-time for a few years. Here you're talking about a summer internship so it's still very early in the game for you. At the end of the day, a Tech internship at GS is by no-means the kiss of death for your front-office aspirations. With that said, I do think it will inherently be more difficult with a Tech internship because the people with a S&T internship have an advantage. But I don't think it's anything that can't be overcome if you go about it the right way. You will probably need to do some strategic networking to make sure you're pre-selected in the resume screen and then during the interview, you would need to convince me why you you want to do S&T and not Tech.
If you haven't even graduated, then you are not switching careers. I say this simply to help you maintain perspective.
Network. Read everything there is to know about S&T. Blow away your interviewers and the people you talk to during recruitment. Even three years after college you're not a "career switcher," you're a twenty-something looking to change it up. Don't feel shackled. (Chances are you'll be doing something other than S&T in five years anyway!).
As the poster above said, you havent even graduated yet, so career switching os really the wrong phrase. If you are doing a sunmer in tech justake sure to reach out to people in s and t during the sumer, and also fellow interns in s and t who moght let you come sot with them in the trading floor, this is the main way kids from other depts got into s and t, they came and asked one of their intern froends if they couldt sit wth them for a bit, and throgh that met sole teams etc
The othef path is an mfe etc, but really just a wasteof money if u can do the above. This route is general chosen by the less social kidsm
Getting into S&T (Originally Posted: 02/13/2007)
I'm a senior engineering major at a target with a low gpa (3.1). I really want to get into sales and trading so I'm applying to a few grad programs in financial engineering (e.g., Cornell) and finance (e.g., Wash U). I'm hoping to rock shit at whatever program I go to. I have 2 questions I could use some help answering:
I have the option of interning at a HF (over 4 bil, but not all that well known), or a prop trading firm (DRW). Which of these would look better on a resume if I want to get into S&T?
Would there be any point for me to apply to jobs next fall since I'm graduating with a low GPA? Everything else on my resume is ok - 1570 SAT, did some cool research that got me published, etc. Should I hold off on applying to banks until I've got a masters from a decent school with (hopefully) a strong gpa?
Thanks - James
Is it that easy to pick the HF over a prop trading group? DRW seems to have talented traders and, from what I hear, first year traders average better than 150k. Do they not get respect on the street?
I'd go to DRW unless it's a top HF that hires a substantial analyst class. It's a risk if you're 1 of a small number of analysts at a HF..you could end up being an administrative assistant for 2 years. Go for a place with a structured training and analyst program (like DRW or an ibank).
I hear that DRW is quite good (although they're less well-known than say Citadel or the ibanks). They are more of a quant shop than a traditional ibank's trading operations - that's probably why you had an easier time getting a job there versus an ibank. Ibanks tend to look less for quant stars and more for people with good GPA regardless of major - a 3.5 Econ major probably would get most jobs over you at ibanks s&t programs, despite the fact that a 3.1 in engineering is in my opinion better than a 3.5 in a liberal arts subject like econ. Your SAT score probably helped enormously with DRW versus the ibanks - HFs & prop shop are more interested in hiring just really smart people versus people who spend their weekends studying and will work late hours. I'll bet DRW asked for your SAT score and required you to take a written mathematical test during the interview, but the ibanks's s&t interviews were almost all fit questions?
I'd go to DRW. I know one guy who's going there and he's really bright and could've gone to a few ibanks but preferred the prop side (you can make much more money early on). DRW type firms prefer people like you (really smart as indicated by test scores) versus a high GPA in political science or econ (which indicates hard work but not necessarily base quantitative intelligence). As an engineer, I think you'd enjoy more quantatitive work at a place like DRW versus an ibank.
By the way, I don't think getting a masters would be that useful. A MFE is only 1 year, and if you're shooting for an ibank, they're only going to care about your undergrad GPA as they'll be interviewing you with only 1 semester at the masters program under your belt. Also, it creates problems in terms of what status you enter as (you can't enter as an associate since you have no work experience, but the analyst role is traditionally for people straight out of college).
DRW is a very good firm and I certainly think you should go there.
a 3.1 from a target, I'd say try anyway. It definitely does happen, esp. in s&t for ppl to get jobs with lower gpas. if you happen to be very charismatic, etc. getting into sales is easy. it doesn't require any real brains. and if you're mathematically apt, a quick thinker ,etc. you could be a good trader.
Thanks for the advice jgism. I am leading towards DRW since one can make some serious cash there by the timee they are 25-26.
Anybody else have opinions on whether I should intern with a prop shop or HF? I am currently interviewing with one small HF (200mil), one medium but quite well known (1.5 bil) and one big one (ovr 8 bil).
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Breaking into S&T (Originally Posted: 05/10/2010)
This is a forum about the possibilities in which someone is to get into S&T whether fresh out of college or post grad school, preferably the sales side or prime brokerage, but trading advice welcome.
- what is the likelihood of this occurrence (and I'm not just talking about top tier GS, JP, MS, UBS; etc. Including boutiques and medium size) - Any one experienced getting in the door as a secretary or petty assistant, and working like hell to get the promotion? - If you don't have any luck right out of school, what's the best work experience to get you there? (financial services, banking, lesser brokerage position (scottrade etc.), getting in with a prop firm although it is doubtful one will be successful in the first yr. or 2, or getting a job in something like commoditees(Cargill)
- If one decided to go out and get work exp., what's the best grad degree? I know they all have pros and cons, and the company department matters as well, but lets just say its anything but equities.Choices: MS Finance, MS econ., MBA, some hybrid banking and finance or financial economics, MFE not optional BB (UBS), but was a miserable job in which he/she learned nothing, but their boss loved him, although he has nor the desire or networking contacts to get him any kind of decent entry level position in the company. RUN WITH IT..........................................................
Pick up the phones and start calling people. This is a Sales (or Trading) position, act as if.
Ryan Leaf was a bigger bust than even Jamarcus Russel is.
I didnt read all of it, but I will say try avoiding option 3 if you can. People in S&T dont really care about your education much really, and thats a huge investment in an education you will likely not use.
What's option 2?
OP, do yourself a favor and just edit your post, or most comments will focus on the mistakes you made in writing it up - you will not get too much good advice...
......
I never understand the whole "how do I get into sales/trading" question. It is pretty obvious. What do they do all day? Call people and get rejected or build relationships. If you can't figure out that you have to do the same thing to break in then you need to reevaluate why you want to be in S&T.
"What if he wants to be a trader? I don't think traders cold-call / build relationships"
AthonyD - I'm guessing you don't work in the field b/c although you think its obvious how to get in, its much more complex. There's a ton of competition, therefore they pick the best. You do have to know a ton about trading to be in sales and your note simply cold calling the whole day, although in the beginning, its important. You have to be extremely quick with numbers and very understanding of the markets. By the way, cold calling large BB and asking for a job would obviously not work. I guarantee they wouldn't even give you an hr person. They'd just say go to our website. I posted this to look for best ways to get an edge. I like the quips about my typo, maybe I should stick to the awful financial services side.
I know commodity markets very well (for a twenty year old at least). I had an interview with a tier 1 BB and the interviewer asked me why I was interested in trading and I said "I want to follow commodity markets blah blah". Then she starts asking all these questions about commodities, even though she didn't know anything about them (like what a contango is). I came off as arrogant and rude trying to explain the basics of commodity trading. Sometimes knowing too much can hurt (lets just say I didn't get this job)
Either way, I got my interview from cold calls/emails. Just find alumni or something
1) You say you prefer the sales side so I omitted the trading aspect
2) Obviously there is more to the job, but at the end of the day it is sale. I was being simplistic.
3) I have spoken to about 30 inst sales people in the past 3 weeks. All have told me the only way into this business is to get in front of people, be persistent, pick up the phone.
If you think posting on WSO and having a bunch of college kids give you advice on how to get a sales job then so be it. I was simply relaying information that I have been told directly from institutional sales professionals.
Additionally, cold calling anyone and asking for a job is foolish. Look people up on linkedin and bloomberg or go to the website and find some names. Many people on this forum have had success simply by cold calling people. Furthermore, how about you call these people, email them, whatever and ask for their advice, how they broke in, can they suggest anyone else to talk with. This is how sales is, how relationships get built and how people get jobs.
If you do not want to call people or be aggressive I would suggest you get an top MBA and put you're resume in through OCR. Other than that you are going to have to make yourself stand out.
When emailing - what pitch/script would you guys say works best in getting a response? Is there something that you shouldn't/definitely do when emailing? Ask about the firm/career or maybe about their experiences and the industry in general? Basically, what will get the highest success rate?
Short and sweet email
Hello, My name is XYZ, I got to ABC for DEF and I am interested in whatever. If you have a second can I ask you a couple quesitons. Really appreciate it. Thanks
XYZ
You want to get these people on the phone. Ask them about their companies core focus, how long they have been in the business, whatever. You have a couple goals.
1) Get them to push you're resume 2) Get information so you can do better when you interview 3) get another contact in their firm
How difficult is it to get into S&T at BB? (Originally Posted: 03/07/2009)
Hey guys,
Just wondering what kind of experience does one need to get an interview with S&T at a BB for a full-time position. I'm will be recruiting for full-time in the Fall and will be doing a strategy consulting internship this summer. I've always been interested in S&T, but don't have any relevant BB S&T experience. Given that I'm still an undergrad, will interviewers see my consulting experience as relevant or respectably "acceptable" given that it's just an internship? Or is there no chance of breaking in? I'm a bus/econ major from a target and have very good grades.
Thanks!
Some previous internships can definitely help you, but no prior experience in S&T is not a game ender. That said, you definitely need to be able explain "Why S&T" for sure, particularly because you don't have prior experience.
From what I heard, traders r very quantitative...something very different from SC.. that being said if u have excellent quantitative skill with a machine gun speed calculation mind..S&T could be the career for u... an example of common S&T interview question would be that to add your phone number together then square them without any calculator do it under 30 sec..dont know much about sales other then being an excellent communicator
opinion: pretty difficult, esp. in a market like this. not much hiring. strategy consulting isn't looked that great upon, you'll be interviewing against people with other s&t experience, hf experience, etc.
do quant work, excel modeling, or market work (asset allocation recommendations) at your firm this summer.
i think a lot of firms want to take low risk hires, ie people who want to do the job and would be worth investing in. so if you're totally empty in 'prior demonstrated interest,' you need to get some.
first, you're going to need a high gpa and clear explanation for why s&t (because you've got to convince them to take that risk in the first place), it might help to know about the specifics of the work (what you'd be doing as an analyst) & what product area you would want to be in--"I want to be in rates trading. I want to be in credit sales." make sure you know the difference between market making and prop.
industry contacts would be a big help, especially if jr people (alums) could pull your resume from your school's pile
a lot of the flak you'll get is some kind of cross between quantitative work and a mythical trader's ethos - can you hack it, followed by some test ... or, if you wanted to be here, you wouldn't do anything else, you would have overcome the obstacles to find the needed experience because you wouldn't have done anything else ... blah blah. stay firm.
it will be to your benefit to learn & talk about the market intelligently, to know how you'd express a view on the yield curve or all the info about how options work and are hedged that you could stomach learning ... why you? just 'cause you want the seat? so many other kids do, you have to show that you wanted the seat enough to do X (where X requires getting off your butt and taking some initiative)
also, you absolutely need to manage a personal portfolio. a plus is that doing so 1) will teach you about risk-management, since it's your money, 2) keep you updated on news, 3) show you if actually want to do this kind of work (especially if you lose $).
Thanks for your opinion 546. Hrmm.. I suspected I would be pigeon holed if I went with consulting. I will definitely try and get as much quant work as possible and possibly some risk mitigation or management projects?
I am definitely looking to devote the time and energy into this prospect, but I think taking the first step is probably the hardest part. Where can I really learn about what it takes to be a trader, are there any specific resources you can recommend? Obviously I will try and follow the appropriate news sources everyday, but is there any resource that traders use like a trading bible or specific textbook? Would I have to learn technical analysis, etc.?
Also, I will be making some income over the summer so how do you suggest I get started and how much money should I start playing around with. I'm not that seasoned with stocks so I might lose quite a bit. Again, any resources in how to first approach managing my portfolio? I'm looking for advice on how to get off the ground in the right direction.
When it comes to managing your portfolio, I always suggest a trial for 30 days with some online virtual portfolio game. Once you've tested the waters, try opening an account with scottrade or e-trade or one of the online brokerages. As someone who interned on a trading desk, I will tell you that they are looking for people who really like the job. Also most traders love doing their job. Most of the senior employees would actually look forward to getting to their six screen desks at 7 am in the morning. What you need to show is a passion for the job. That is the first and foremast factor even during interviews. I know plenty of incredibly smart people from target schools getting rejected because they didn't know if they wanted to be traders. I know average people who got the job because they knew they wanted to be a trader more than anything else. It would also help if you did learn some technical analysis which is not hard at all. Trading is far too diverse by the way. Try and find your niche; fixed income, fx, commodities, equities or derivatives. Whichever field you dedicate yourself too, make sure you learn as much as possible about it. It may be a little difficult with strategy consulting as an internship but it's all about networking with the recruiters that come to your school and conveying your interest. Once you get your foot into the door, the ball is in your court and that's where you bring to action the stuff I articulated above. Some books I recommend for reading if you're willing to take time off for it (some are lengthy reads); trading for a living, options, futures and other derivatives (tough read, very technical and do it if you like derivatives)and you can find some other decent books in your library or Amazon.com. Also look through the investopedia glossary from time to time. good luck.
i need to know from u guys ( myself a nerd) that what does it takes academically to get an associate level position in a bb or a gud shop S&T.
if an MBA is needed do u need a quantative background or business degree or equavalent bfr an MBA is enuf so far as the educational requirements are concerned.
Also what is the difference bw a trading and sales exactly and what are the exits for both and which is a better career compensation wise. ( i told y bfr i am a nerd and plz ignore my spelling)
I wouldn't worry about getting "quantitative" or "modeling" experience at the consulting firm this summer. People in S&T aren't going to give those much credit. If you can't make a legit monte carlo simulation now, you won't be able to after your internship. On the flip side, juniors don't learn much as a summer analyst in a S&T rotation, I wouldn't worry about being behind.
You do need to figure out what sales&trading is actually about.
Do you want to do flow or prop?
What interests you: FX, commodities, equities, FI... ?
Do you want to vanillas or exotics / cash or derivatives?
The skills you'd need being FX sales are very different than what you'd need on a rates prop desk.
I generally agree with 546mpster though...
Start following the markets
I'm not sure about your math background, but read Hull's Options, Futures, and other Derivatives
It's not for everyone, be honest with yourself if you'd enjoy it.
As much as I have read up on both, I am unsure if I want IBD or S&T. I like math but trading is also very risky. However, it does seem like something I could really enjoy (more prop trading than flow). I think I would need to experience both of them but if I try to do an S&T internship one year and IBD the next (or vice versa), I wouldn't have "time" in one of the areas. Is there one type of internship in one of the areas in a specific division/desk that can somehow incorporate both? Also, is there something less technical than Options, Futures, and Derivatives because I'm having a hard time understanding it? Besides the Vault to IBanking and S&T, I haven't found any intermediary materials.
hi millhouse, Hull's book isn't "technical" by any means..do try to take your time and work through it. If you really think Hull's book is too much for you then you might want to brush up on your math; or look into something more flow oriented e.g. cash equity
ok but how does someone really decide between IBD and S&T? is there any way to experience a little bit of both... an internship in a certain area?
Do you like thinking about how money flows through companies and picking apart financial statements or do you like something faster paced, following each policy announcement/economic number?
Do you like taking time to model stuff out or are you ok acting on limited information? Do you like long projects or lots of small tasks?
You don't think Hull's book is technical?
It's not rigorous enough to turn you into the desk quant, but not many undergrads have done work with stochastic calculus.
Here is how you learn about trading:
1) Have at least 5k. If you dont have that then get it somehow. Sell drugs, suck dick, etc. 2) Set up an account on Interactive Brokers that allows your to trade futures. 3) Pick one product that has a small sized contract...when i did this I could only trade at night so I picked Hang Seng Index Futures. 4) Read up on the leverage inherent in futures and create a risk management plan...ie how you are going to size trades, use stops, add to positions, etc. notice you do this before you know anything about the market because it is by far the most important part of being a good trader. Discipline is what is going to make you a good trader not brilliant ideas. On 5k you will probably be trading 1 lots...ie 1 contract. That is fine. 5) Learn how to account for your performance. Every day you should know how much you made or lost and have a good log of it. Not what the broker sends you...you should do it yourself and use them as a check. You are your own back-office and middle-office. 5) Learn the interactive brokers execution platform inside and out. The IB platform is not much different then one I use at a large hedge fund so when your done with this you should be able to execute in a professional manner. 6) Learn everything about the market you trade. For the case of hong Kong if thats what you picked you should know how the central bank works in that country, the politics, the composition of the stock index, valuations, etc. This will take awhile. Start by finding a local newspaper to read every day. Then go to the central bank website. Find yourself an economic calendar that shows what data is coming out in your market (they are not hard to find for free). Start very basic. Notice that you do this only after you are ready to handle all the real business of trading. Also, you should do this even if you intend on trading using mostly technical analysis...it will help.
7) Start trading. Be careful. Your goal #1, #2, and #3 is preservation of capital. This is a learning experience you arent going to get rich trading 1 lots. Trade defensively at first. If you turn out to be a good trader what you think is defensive now you will probably realize later was insane so heir on the side of caution. 8) If you actually do all these steps you will be a better trader and know more about markets then most kids do AFTER they complete an analyst or associate stint on a sales and trading desk...i gaurantee it.
9) Remember what you are doing is learning a trade...you arent learning how to sell bonds to dumb central banks or how to kiss some bankers ass you are learning a skill that few have and makes you very valuable if you become good at it. Treat your work with due seriousness and you will be paid back many-fold.
^^ great advice and should apply to all people starting out with trading from their PAs. Almost how I started off in addition to having done the virtual thing for a while just to understand the most efficient way of researching for info.
damn that's good bondarb.
might also recommend the beginning trader keep a journal. http://www.investopedia.com/articles/trading/06/tradersdiary.asp
the journal should be easy to add to (e.g. text file, excel sheet) so you'll do it, and have
1)What did you trade and why? 2)Where is your stop and limit and why? 3)Did the trade work out as planned?
Sales and Trading breaking in (Originally Posted: 07/09/2015)
Is it possible to work on a desk without a bachelors degree ?
As an intern maybe. This isn't 1980 anymore. Even the receptionists have degrees now.
film_trader, it will definitely be challenging without a bachelor's degree; that being said, a Series 7 is not like a CFA charter where you require a 4 year degree to acquire it - there are some 'off the beaten path' shops that let you trade their firm's capital and from what I've seen their requirements are less stringent than larger firms. I can't speak to how reputable these shops are and I'm sure there are some 'chop shops' but if I was in your position and really wanted to be able to trade in a professional setting without a 4 year degree (and was not considering getting my 4 year degree) - I would research these prop shops and see what they require... Hope this helps
Thanks man I will definitely look further into the shops. I think for now I should look into finishing my degree I only have 30 credits left. Thanks for comments
2012 S&T Recruitment Process help (Originally Posted: 08/29/2011)
I am a current senior double majoring in economics and engineering with a 3.4 overall and a 3.8 in my major. This past summer I worked at a large Asset Management firm and the previous summer I worked at a fund of hedge funds (and have offers). I think my technical background, personality and interests leaves me best-suited for a sales and trading job, but it seems like it may be difficult to get on a desk in this environment. I am afraid my resume will get overlooked if I simply drop it online - my school's career site has some S&T jobs but mostly IBD. Just looking for any advice with regards to the S&T job search: openings at banks, other paths, other types of firms to look at, etc. Feel free to message me as well
network network network and network
Networking is going to be your biggest help here. You have multiple offers, you're a competitive candidate, decent grades given your majors, probably at a semi-target at worst given that you have jobs posted on-campus ... so if you can reach out to alumni, former members of extracurricular organizations, people related to the firms you worked at already, etc., I imagine you wouldn't have too much trouble snagging a few interviews at worst.
It's a rough time to try to get into trading though, keep that in mind.
Thanks. Does anyone have any information on which banks are looking to fill out with more S&T analysts for 2012?
Network Network Network
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