T14 Law School chick to IBD? Help a sista out! What are my chances? Possibilities?
So the 411 on my situation is basically: I'm a 25yro girl who just graduated from Cornell Law and landed a gig at a DC law firm doing finance/securities law making $140k.
Despite having a job, the employment situation for us is HORRIBLE. I might have a nice salary now, I doubt I'll have my job next year. I have about $120,000 loans to pay off.
I'd love to start applying for investment banking jobs either in DC or NYC. I know it's SUPER hard if not impossible to make such a career change if I didn't get in back in college. But is there ANY help for me, given my stats? Basically what I'm saying is, would ANY investment bank out there that pays around the BB's do buy my shit?
Here are my stats. Would any of these help me stand out?
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Cornell Law School - specializing in financial law, summa cum laude
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Columbia U undergrad - majored in economics (3.69 GPA), LSAT-173 (irrelevant?)
*UBS S/T internship sophomore year (5 years ago - ouch)
*I co-own one patent I did back in college, relating to an online payment system that was integrated into my senior economics thesis.
*While at Columbia, I did some part time modeling for TeenVogue (don't ask for pics lol. just believe me on this one) and performed in many dance shows throughout NYC (interesting enough of a hook?)
do i have ANY chance at all if i were to forward my resume to any BB banks in NYC? or should i do law for a year and try to transfer? i didn't realize how horrible job prospects were until 80% of the law grads I know are UNEMPLOYED and my friends who graduated law a year before me who landed biglaw jobs were mostly laid off after one year. ugh.
please advise!!! :)
Even if you did get hired in, you may not get in as an associate. Maybe lateral analyst, and either way you won't be making 140K base. All-in you could make that or more depending on title and firm.
I've seen a linkedin profile of a guy at GS who was previously at law school before becoming an associate. But I think he was also top of his class and interned in finance during one or two of his summers while in law.
Keep your job as long as you can but start networking so that you can find out about openings in the hidden job market over time.
haha i was only hoping to get in as a first or second year analyst really. which honestly would be good enough for me since the all-in comp is similar to a biglaw salary. it would be good enough for me -- the day i got hired at my law firm i already started hearing about base salary cuts across the board.
When they're asking technical questions and ask you about your modeling skills, show them pics from TeenVogue.
Just kidding.
But yeah I don't see why you wouldn't be able to land an IBD Associate gig except your lack of work experience (you might be able to come in as a 3rd year analyst or something) - use your Columbia network. Make sure you have your story down cold (why you did an S&T internship but decide law school and then decided finance again).
LOL. if i get asked that "tell me a joke" interview surprise question, i will pull the modeling card :D
It's going to come down to your social skills, i.e. aggression/persuasion. I knew a guy with a not too dissimilar resume who essentially called around and said "look blah+blah=blah" most of the banks ignored him, one gave him an interview, he killed it, the rest is history.
im guessing my social skills are fine -- i was told im a pretty good conversationalist and making nice sharp points. so just randomly call around? do people still get stuff out of that in this economy?
also, would it be silly for me to just drop my resume with the columbia undergrad recruiting events? lol
You think the job prospects for Big Law are bad? They are worse for finance.
Just stick with Big Law. Job prospects for legal workers aren't as bad as finance and trying to lateral won't be worth the effort.
Seriously, is $140K/Yr that bad? Job prospects for T-14 aren't that bad, I dated a T-14 lawyer. You'll be fine.
wait is the employment situation in high finance really that bad right now? all i've been hearing are fellow law graduates' sob stories (and these people were all from top 14 law schools) and that law is the absolute worst industry to be in right now. i think there was some article the other day about how UVA (ranked higher than my law school) had about 27% unemployment after a year or something.
Yes, it's quite bad. See link:
http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/investment-banks-face-bleak-futur…
Also, search for "hiring freeze" on this website.
If you're actually a 'sista' then I'm sure you'll find someone to hire you...
sir last time i checked, the DaBa Girls website is no more. end of an era. time for strong willed women to find their own treasure chests....you know...working for it? haha
Maybe look at some of the more legal related groups, like restructuring?
Banking doesn't like untraditional applicants. It's all fixed and proper cookie-cutter time-line shit. In the past they let in JD's as associates but I think that's very rare now.
They'd definitely take you in compliance at a bank. E-A-S-Y. Good job security. But I suspect the pay isn't too good.
If you want an actual finance job in a finance firm and you can't get past IBD, then look into capital markets. I've heard of 3 separate ocassions of JD's who specialized in securities law breaking into ECM and DCM and they were both from worse schools than cornell/columbia.
I don't agree with you that financial industry job market is better than the law market. Having 1,000:1 applicant to intake ratio for top FO positions is very common. And those that fail just disappear into other industries. But for people with JDs- they stand around and bitch/moan about not being at a law firm and refuse to "disappear".
Start networking now
Do a year in law (so you don't seem indecisive/flighty) and you can lateral in as a 1st / 2nd year associate. Just study your shit. You seem like a smart gal so it shouldn't be a problem, especially with your educational pedigree
DaBa = dating a banker anonymous
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/nyregion/28daba.html
[quote=Erebus]DaBa = dating a banker anonymous
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/nyregion/28daba.html[/quote] Good, I'm glad I didn't know what that was
You want to switch to working at a bulge bracket because you aren't sure that you will have your law job in a year? Well, not only are most bulge brackets not hiring right now, but most are having huge layoffs. Investment Banking is NOT where you go for job security so I think you are somewhat disillusioned.
Life will be easier if you do what you have a passion for, which would presumably be law if you want to law school.
You're better off doing consulting at MBB.
I'm curious as to why you chose Cornell. With a 3.65 from Columbia and a 173 there's no way you wouldn't have gotten into at least one of Chicago, Columbia, NYU, or Harvard.
Guy 1: 3.95 GPA Ivy, 174 LSAT rejected from HLS and YLS Guy 2: 3.77 GPA SEC School 170 LSAT Admitted HLS waitlisted YLS
Both white, both with white collar work experience.
No way guy 1 applied to cls, nyu, and UC and got rejected at all 3 and had to go to cornell.....
You could aim for a job in restructuring, they like lawyers, but I think they usually like applicants with actual experience in law.
Another possible option is management consulting at Bain, McKinsey, BCG. I think they take lawyers, probably not as many as MBAs, but undoubtedly they take some. You'll have to know the shit out of case studies, but you should be used to studying your ass off from law school. They also pay higher than law, assuming you come in at the post-MBA level (which I believe you would), probably in the 160k-200k range.
I don't know this information firsthand, I've either seen it on here or a number of other sites related to consulting.
This one's going to be epic. Anyone found pics yet? Look, all these jabroni's are retarded. If you're hot with those stat's and network/flirt you way into an interview, should be good. Just don't fuck up the technical questions...take that back just get to the interview and smile, flick your hair back a lot, and nod frequently. Should be good to go.
I don't believe Guy 1 got straight up rejected from HLS and YLS... I call troll!!!!!!!!!!!
pics or it didn't happen
Probably never happened. Really, who gives a shit?
I have to be honest, the OP irritates me.
First, there are people who literally chop off a limb to attend a T-14 law school because they are passionate about law and want to make a meaningful contribution to the world with their law degree. OP seems to be ungrateful for the good karma life has so generously bestowed upon her and obviously has no genuine interest in law.
Second, there are guys who would literally suck a dick to make half of $140/K so they can feed their children in this economy. Yet OP seems ungrateful for this and wants more job security and money in a field with less job security and will probably be less lucrative going forward.
Third, OP doesnt seem to be motivated by any type of interest except for what field may have more security than law at the moment. If prostitution had more secuirty than law she would probably consider it. Indecivenes is a turn-off, OP. Even if you modeled for TeenVogue, I would probably ignore you in real life.
Fourth, OP needs to learn how to research (this is an important skill for a an aspiring lawyer). How could you not realize that financial services have been doing worse than law? Do you not read the news? Let me give you a cheat-sheet, hot-shot: pre-2008, there were 5 bulge bracket investment banks. Today, there are two and those bulge bracket banks are not even i-banks, they are banks holding companies. They need to be bank holding companies because they are so unstable that they need access to the Fed's cheap and easy money. How many AM100 law firms went belly-up after 2008? Probably none. Obviously, law is more secure and even an idiot can see that.
Finally, I hope you take this criticism positivley as a means of motivation rather than have some blindly emotional negative reaction, OP. Finance is a tough business. If this response shocked you, I recommend you stick to a softer industry like law, even though you dont seem to care much for legal services.
Prepare for many disapointments in life, OP.
Relax, I think this thread is a dishonest troll thread.
SB, would not hire or help her. Info session groupie. Possibly successful only because she is a woman, and she knows it. Ms. Goodwin Proctor should be grateful. You can flame me, but your writing is very, very transparent.
lol wasn't it marx that said "...to each according to his need"? I share similar sentiments but you have to give it up. The cost of capitalism is social injustice.
Haha, good move. I know law is a respectable profession and all but god damn, any time I'm on a call with our lawyers their job sounds painfully boring. Like... insanely fucking boring.
This thread made me giggle. Thanks for that, WSO, this is basically all I get out of this site any more.
Before I address what the OP said, I do want to make it clear that Law is a very jealous and fickle mistress. Schools are just as harsh when it comes to admitting people. I know people who were 172+ LSAT scores that were dinged from HLS and YLS as well. Law School is like that. I know people who got into to schools that shouldn't have gotten in, and others who got into top schools that were at the bottom of the their class and would have done better at other schools.
As to the OP, the answer is no. Stay with your law job until you actually get laid off. If you want to go into banking, you need significantly more experience because a first year lawyer is just as expendable as a first year analyst or associate. Without real experience (think 4-7 years) under your belt, you won't be able to transfer into a reasonably similar position. That said, do you really want to be a banker or do you want to do Law at a Bank? That's even harder to get without the experience. If you want to be a banker, are you going to focus in on the highly legal areas of banking (M&A, Restructuring, Bankruptcy, et al)? If you are, then you need experience! Key words here are having experience. Jumping into a brand new career in another high stress industry after a year in law will look bad. If you were to be laid off, it would be different. So, my advice, stick with your job or find another law firm to work for.
If you guys were smart you wouldn't have responded intelligently until pics were posted, real or not.
a) law is struggling harder than banking. Banking is very bad, by the way. (but law is worse, especially when you think about promotion)
b) law to ibd is a very difficult transition. Do you even know what the CAPM or WACC are? Can you tell me what Operating Income is and how to do a DCF? I'd make sure to bone up on the particulars. I honestly can't see where they would put you. Most of the bankers that used to be lawyers are higher end guys who got to work on live deals with the bankers, learning their lingo and what has to be done. I guess you would have to enter at the Analyst level, but without any internship under your belt it would probably be easier for the bank to just hire an undergrad.
Just curious, what makes you say that law is struggling more than finance? The evidence to the contrary is overwhelmingly one-sided.
I can't say for certain if law's problems are greater than banking's problems (although I strongly believe so), I can definitively state that law school students face far, far higher hurdles than business school students.
Due to the 1) slowed economy, 2) massive oversupply of lawyers, in addition to the 3) outsourcing of lower tier legal work to countries like India, combined with 4) corporations demanding flat fees instead of hourly fees have resulted in profound challenges to biglaw. The move to flat rates has absolutely decimated the Associate ranks, has driven down profits, and may have broken biglaw's business model forever.
The partners are not stepping aside to allow new talent to rise, and that has jammed up the system for perhaps a decade or more. New entrants into big law face nearly impossible odds, and most of them are lucky to even land much, much lower paying corporate law gigs, where they are unable to pay their student loan obligations (law school is 3 yrs, which is more $$$ than b-school).
Check out this bi-modal starting salary distribution for law school students. Horrifying.
http://www.adamsmithesq.com/archives/2008/07/the-bimodal-starting-sala…
Looking at banking, the business model is still fully intact, and the recent layoffs are due to cyclical slowdown. Remember, Lehman did not fall because of a lack of demand for its services. I strongly believe banking's problems are merely cyclical in nature, while big law's problems appear to be secular, and perhaps irreversible.
Anyway, just my $0.02.
maybe if you help a brotha out first
if you know what I mean
Oh and just to clarify: what I mean is that law is less volatile than law. In 2005, I might of encouraged the OP to pursue IB, but it's obviously not 2005. 2005 was like a different dimension.
law is definitely more secure than banking, and doing better too. how many top tier IBD firms are there? roughly 10-20. in any of those, in a particular group, you're looking at maybe 3-10 MDs? so at any given time, there are maybe a couple thousand top tier MDs in banking max, with comp ranging from say 1-5MM on avg.
By contrast, there are 432 partners at Skadden Arps alone, and profits per partner of 2-4MM. And Skadden is only one firm out of literally hundreds of top tier American law firms. Bankers offer a pretty specialized product (capital raising and M&A)...by contrast, lawyers not only do capital raising and M&A, they also do corporate governance, employee matters, environmental crap, litigation, etc
Law is a much broader field, and corporations HAVE to use them for just about everything. Which doesn't mean that obviously there aren't enough lawyers in supply that it's not a shitty field to be in too, but seriously, there are a lot fewer seats to go around in banking, and people are just as smart and cutthroat
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