T6 Law School -> Vault 20 Law Firm -> IB
Sage Simians,
A few weeks back I posted the below in a comment buried in a necro thread to avoid redundancy, but received no takers. Figured I might have more luck and visibility by starting a new thread. Any constructive thoughts are much appreciated.
Background: I'm currently a mid-level Corporate/M&A associate that graduated from a T6, initially worked for a V20 in NYC with a strong M&A presence, and now work at a V25 in California (though the firm's Vault reputation is far stronger in California). I've done a range of deals, from multi-billion dollar public-public mergers, to mid-market private equity deals to distressed debt/equity deals for hedge funds. I've worked with the top of the top in terms of IB's providing M&A advisement on deals, as well as more directly with top private equity and hedge funds. I'm certainly not trying to "show off" my experience here, I simply want to provide ample background so I receive more nuanced advice. Note that outside of my corporate law experience that brings me into contact with financials often, I do not have a strong background in economics (aside from an International Relations degree as an undergrad with a focus on Global Markets and the Global Economy) or finance aside from keeping up with the WSJ and Deal Book, and devouring books like King of Capital, Hedgehogging, Liar's Poker, When Genius Failed - just to name a few as examples.
I've been debating the move to an IB for the past couple years, and am now certain the time is right. I don't know that becoming an MD is an ultimate goal, or if a jump to PE or a Hedge Fund after 3-4 years in IB will ultimately be my preference. As of now, my plan is to begin studying for the Level 1 CFA exam (or a similar course), as well as use WSO materials to prep for interviews that incorporate modeling and technical questions in particular. Meanwhile, I'm tapping every contact at IB's that I've met or worked with on deals over the past few years - even if it's just for a quick email, chat or coffee.
Why Post Now?: OK, but why post, you may be asking, if I seem to have digested at least some of the excellent advice offered in similar threads on WSO? I think that in addition to my lack of a finance/economics background, my concerns are two-fold: 1) While the firm I'm at has a very strong California reputation, in New York and more globally it is not a powerhouse in the M&A game; and 2) I'm in Los Angeles and have a slight preference to stay here (though I love NYC and am willing to move back as necessary), but am concerned that while there are excellent shops out here (e.g. Moelis, a smaller Goldman TMT team, etc...), this move is likely much "easier" in New York, as there are many more opportunities and openings. For example, I know at least two juniors/mid-levels that made this move from my former v20 in New York - one to JPM and one to an M&A group at, I believe, Lazard.
Addressing Concerns: Given the concerns noted above (no doubt there are others), I'm trying to formulate a course of action in addition to beginning my CFA studies and more general interview prep I noted above. So, in addition to any general advice you might have, it would also be helpful to get reactions on the below:
-Should I lateral to a firm with a stronger M&A reputation in New York? The lateral market is very hot, but this would be my second lateral move, and I would only be sticking around at a new firm until I landed an IB gig.
-Should I internally relocate to my firm's NYC office and launch my search from there? My firm would very likely let me do this, and my reputation is pretty strong within the M&A group, but again, in New York this firm is only marginally on the radar for M&A, whereas it's an elite TMT-focused M&A shop in LA.
-Should I stay put in LA and simply use every resource I can muster, and try to land a gig within the more limited LA IB-landscape, while also applying to NYC IB offices as a backup?
Lengthy post, I realize, but I would appreciate any insight people are willing to share. Also happy to PM anyone who thinks they are able to provide insight. Thank you.
Sorry i may be ignorant but wtf is a vault 20/25?
I guess OP is using this? http://www.vault.com/company-rankings/banking/most-prestigious-banking-…
What a weird way to classify firms though.
So are you a corporate banker or an investment banker? From the title Corporate/M&A associate it sounds like you're already in investment banking but then why would you say "debating a move into an IB"? I think people are having trouble understanding your background.
Apologies for any confusion - I'm currently an M&A attorney. Vault (and Chambers) is a standard reference point in the legal world and on legal discussion boards and a byword for classifying firms, i.e. Vault 10, Vault 20, Vault 50, etc... while still maintaining some anonymity, but I should have been more clear. Similarly, by t6 I meant a t6 law school. Hope that clears up my background and current situation a bit. Thanks.
He is obviously an attorney.
T6 = Top 6 Law School
V20 = Vault 20 Law Firm
He is asking how to make it into IB as a Corporate/M&A Associate.
Yes, thanks. Your summary is a solid tl;dr of my post.
INTERESTING POST I WAS THINKING ABOUT A SIMILAR THING TO GET INTO IB
HAVE U CONSIDERED A 1 YEAR ACCELERATED MBA?????? CONSIDERING YOU HAVE GOOD EXPERIENCE FORM A DECENT FIRM, IT MIGHT BE GOOD IDEA EVEN IF NOT FROM TOP MBA SCHOOL
I have considered this, but the general consensus from my IB contacts seems to be that at this point an MBA would not add much value to my 3-4 years of M&A and deal experience, so long as I can speak intelligently about financials - e.g. the interplay of a company's balance sheet, income statement and cash flows, as well as generally explain a deal's cycle and rationale in detail. A couple people have said the exception to this might be HBS or SBS full time, but even then it would be an opportunity cost calculus.
Are you on crack?
The hell? Somebody forgot to take their meds this morning.
Out of curiosity, would that lead to a salary increase? I know young lawyers are not making bank like they used to but aren't you still making more than you would as an associate?
I think it depends on what year I would come in as an IB associate. The top law firms are all basically lockstep in terms of base salary and bonus - e.g. a 4th year attorney makes $235k base + $65k bonus, a fifth year makes $260k base + $80k bonus, and so on. I'm willing to take a short term hit as it will likely balance out within a couple years.
In speaking with attorneys who have made the jump and other contacts in IB, it seems that mid-levels generally come in as 2nd or 3rd year associates. In one instance, I know a former 4th year attorney (nearing his 5th year) who even made the jump straight to VP (and not in a legal capacity).
Why do you want to make the switch to IB?
In general, I actually enjoy doing deals, even on the legal side, and want to position myself to be more directly involved in the gestation of deals. Sidenote: let's have me never repeat the phrase "gestation of deals" again. From a legal standpoint, for many clients the majority of the true "deal-making" has already occurred by the time we start drafting/negotiating an LOI, term sheet or definitive documentation. For other clients, I've been part of teams that act much more in an M&A advisory role in addition to negotiating the deal, which I prefer. I also enjoy and think I am/would be good at pitching for work and bringing in deals. I've been part of law firm pitch teams in the past, and while the process of endlessly editing pitch books and tweaking pitches can be tedious, I actually get fired up by the pitches themselves. Let's hope that doesn't mean I'm insufferable. I also enjoy being able to learn as much as possible about a certain company, then move on to the next company and learn about it, and so on...
I've thought a lot about this question, as in addition to those who have jumped from law to IB, I've also worked with people who have gone from IB analyst to law school to law firms as a way of getting OUT of IB, and it seems like (anecdotally) while the hours are certainly grinding, what many of these people ultimately did not like about IB was the "salesman" aspect of it that was necessary to move up in the ranks. No doubt there were many other factors too, but this always seemed to come up.
Ultimately, I don't know if I would gun to be an MD or try to move over to PE after a few years - which is also fascinating because you get to live with, improve and monetize the deals/businesses you've entered into for a few years - but I'm fairly certain that my personality and career interests in deal-making seem to align better with IB than law.
Grab a couple of the bankers you've either worked with on deals in the past for coffee, or reach out to contacts (cold or warm, doesn't matter) at the firms you want to work for.
Tell them exactly this. You actually like doing deals and have been through the ringer enough to prove it. You're basically a golden boy.
Ka-ching, interview.
Shit, this is pitch perfect! But leave out that last bit about how PE is exciting and shit.
Agreed.
I certainly appreciate the sentiment and the governing spirit behind it, but 100% autonomy also means 100% overhead and 100% risk. While I don't have an interest in being a solo attorney or starting my own firm, on a long enough timeline, I could see myself becoming a founding partner in a small PE shop or HF or even trying to spin off my own small fund - but that is likely many years off. In the meantime, here's hoping you find your own path to success and autonomy.
Any thoughts on this from others? Received a few questions above, but no real strategy advice. Thanks.
I met one guy who was a Citi Associate that started out as a lawyer doing M&A, but he got an MBA before making the switch.
Thanks - yeah I've debated an MBA, but the general consensus from my IB contacts seems to be that at this point an MBA would not add much value to my 3-4 years of M&A and deal experience, even if it will be more difficult to initially get my foot in the door.
Also, I've scoured the recruiter threads on WSO, but if anyone knows a specific recruiter that specializes in/has experience with the Attorney-IB Analyst transition, please let me know. I'm actively reaching out to my small network of IB Associates/Analysts/VPs, but a third party who specializes in this would be helpful.
First, there are a lot of people who want to make the switch, so it's not easy. Lazard is the only bank that I'm aware if that ACTIVELY recruits lawyers. Other banks do hire them, but it's less of a specific want. So I'd reach out to contacts there if you worked with them. They have a ton of ex Latham guys, which it sounds like is not the firm you're at.
Secondly, do you have any bankruptcy experience? Making a play for a restructuring role is an easier sell. You can talk about how you like M&A dealmaking but love bankruptcy and, in restructuring, your legal experience is actually a plus whereas in M&A it's neither here nor there.
You probably won't find a ton of help here. But good luck.
Thanks for the input. I'm definitely reaching out to contacts and have even started mass mailing recruiters in addition to targeting a few recruiters who I know have helped people make the jump from BigLaw in the past. I have no doubt this will take some significant hustle on my part given the competition.
An interesting thought on bankruptcy - I do have some experience doing deals with hedge funds that were basically distressed debt and/or bankruptcy restructuring deals, though most law firms have bankruptcy specialists that get into the weeds on these deals. Nevertheless, it's probably worth highlighting as an aspect of my M&A experience.
I would both highlight and reach out to restructuring contacts/groups at firms. It's definitely a much easier sell. HL restructuring is huge on the west coast. Evercore is expanding their practice. Guggenheim is, as well, and have a beautiful new west coast office. It's somewhat in decline now, but as with anything it's cyclical and hiring is still happening. And if you understand debt structures it can be an easier sell than coverage groups at banks.
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