Technical vs Fundamental trading

Mod Note: This is a syndication from Jared's Daily Dirtnap daily market newsletter. WSO readers qualify for a $100 discount...just email [email protected] and mention "WSO Monkey Discount" You can follow Jared on twitter at @dailydirtnap

Let’s discuss some basic trading concepts.

I started out as a “technical” trader and then became more of a fundamental trader, and now I am a hybrid of the two, with a healthy dose of sentiment trading. After 15 years of doing this, I think I’ve found the right mix. But I will tell you what doesn’t work: starting at charts in a vacuum. At least, it didn’t for me.

You can have a solid base of knowledge about technical analysis, and find yourself in situations where you observe a “breakdown,” so you sell into it and the stock rips in your face and you cover your short, skulking off in the corner to lick your wounds. What happened? If you were ignorant of the fundamentals, like, maybe the company was a takeout candidate, then shame on you. But people do this, they trade on charts in a vacuum. This is partly how I got myself into trouble with Time Warner Cable.

Correspondingly, you can’t trade on fundamentals alone, either. Fundamental analysts tend to have this very narrow view of the world where they can determine the “fair value” for a security and the market will converge to it over time. The first hard lesson to learn is that there is no such thing as fair value, and the second hard lesson to learn is that even if there was, the market is going to take its time getting there, and your risk tolerance is path-dependent. Cheap things can get cheaper and rich things can get richer. So what is the silver bullet, if there is one?

Before we address that, first of all, you have to understand that the goal isn’t to buy things on the lows and sell them on the highs. The goal is actually to own them over the period of time that they go up the fastest. For example: if I buy a stock at 20, and it goes up to 100, I am happy. But what if it takes 5 years to go from 20 to 30, then goes from 30 to 90 in a few months, then takes another 5 years to go from 90 to 100? You bought the lows and sold the highs. But the rate of return calculation is entirely different than if you bought it at 30 and sold it at 90 a few months later, and then did something else with your money.

Very few people understand this. It took me 15 years to figure it out. I am that dumb. But it’s worth thinking about when you’re dumpster-diving for out-of-favor stocks, and you do the math on this distressed equity that it’s worth a lot more than the market is giving it credit for, so you buy it, and...nothing happens. For a long time. It doesn’t go down, but you’re tying up precious capital. That’s not a good situation to be in.

I think the most contemporary example is AA, which I bought last week (not enough). The stock was scudding around in the single digits for months. You could have bought it for 8 or 8.5 or 9 and it would have used up capital, until it finally moved, then--kablammo. Arguably, I waited too long. But now the stock is on the move. It’s not the speed, but the acceleration. 10 percent in just a few days.

So one question that people ask, especially in the hedge fund business, is, what’s the catalyst? And that is a reasonable question to ask. Why buy AA at 8? What is the catalyst? Are aluminum prices suddenly going to go up? Is there going to be a sudden demand for aluminum? As it turns out, there was a catalyst--the F-150, the most popular car in America, is going to be made out of aluminum, but the stock moved before you found out what the catalyst was, which is usually what happens. So when is the right time to get involved? When the stock moves.

So is the name of the game really to sit around all day and look for stocks that move? Well, it would be a gross oversimplification to say yes, but, sort of, yes. But it is part of the overall mosaic. Like, I like commodities for x, y, and z reasons. Do I buy commodity stocks the moment I decide I like commodities? No, because to do so would be pretty arrogant, to believe that the market just conforms to your expectations. You buying it doesn’t make it go up. Everyone buying it makes it go up. Back to Keynes and the beauty pageant. You want to be there when everyone else comes to the same conclusion at the same time.

It is okay to have an opinion that is different than the market. Like, I liked miners long before I started buying them, when they were out of favor. But I didn’t buy them when they were out of favor. I waited for them to start to come back into favor. I don’t always get this right, I’m just saying. The stock market is a pretty sophisticated psychological game that is essentially un-masterable and non-stationary (just when you get the hang of it, the rules change). But if anything, I hope this illustrates more than anything the sheer futility of getting into a fight with the market. Losses are inevitable. I don’t mind losing money so much, I just really hate being in a position where I am fighting it. It is the worst feeling in the world. Give up and come over to the winning side.

 

" I don’t mind losing money so much, I just really hate being in a position where I am fighting it."

The first thing that came to my mind after reading that sentence was Bill Ackman x Herbalife

 

+1 This! lol.

On a serious note though. "Past performance does not reflect future performance"

I do agree with O.P. that technicals will be good to observe entry points of some sort.

Overall, its a great article. Thanks O.P.

 
Jared Dillian:
trading.jpg

Mod Note: This is a syndication from Jared's Daily Dirtnap daily market newsletter. WSO readers qualify for a $100 discount...just email [email protected] and mention "WSO Monkey Discount" You can follow Jared on twitter at @dailydirtnap

Let’s discuss some basic trading concepts.

I started out as a “technical” trader and then became more of a fundamental trader, and now I am a hybrid of the two, with a healthy dose of sentiment trading. After 15 years of doing this, I think I’ve found the right mix. But I will tell you what doesn’t work: starting at charts in a vacuum. At least, it didn’t for me.

You can have a solid base of knowledge about technical analysis, and find yourself in situations where you observe a “breakdown,” so you sell into it and the stock rips in your face and you cover your short, skulking off in the corner to lick your wounds. What happened? If you were ignorant of the fundamentals, like, maybe the company was a takeout candidate, then shame on you. But people do this, they trade on charts in a vacuum. This is partly how I got myself into trouble with Time Warner Cable.

Correspondingly, you can’t trade on fundamentals alone, either. Fundamental analysts tend to have this very narrow view of the world where they can determine the “fair value” for a security and the market will converge to it over time. The first hard lesson to learn is that there is no such thing as fair value, and the second hard lesson to learn is that even if there was, the market is going to take its time getting there, and your risk tolerance is path-dependent. Cheap things can get cheaper and rich things can get richer. So what is the silver bullet, if there is one?

My port ended 0.28% green today. I have 23 positions. Possibly I know something or I'm just lucky. But I do agree with you. You need to merge your technical trading with the fundamentals. Over 5000 tickers to choose from that one should (to quote the oracle) wait for the right pitch.
 
Best Response

Almost any stock price can be justified -- put another way, any stock price reflects a set of assumptions on the few underlying drivers. The job of an fundamental analyst is to narrow down the probability distribution of all sets of outcomes into a limited subset with relative accuracy with a degree of safety built in, then everyone places bets around it. Some drivers are easier to pin down, some requires a historical perspective, and some nearly impossible unless one has insider information or can see the future. Regardless, if there is (1) less variances around the potential state of the world or (2) more set of eyes on the situation, it is less likely that the security is significantly mispriced and stakeholder stand to earn the growth of book value / FCF or the swing of the underlying driver (should it be trading sardines). Waiting for value discovery by the masses can be hard -- that's why activists publish their research -- but getting into a stock with defined catalyst should prompt people to pay attention and, assuming they are not fearful and has some intelligence to agree, should drive the stock towards fair value. Long winded post, my point is, your argument of time-to-realize-value is an astute one, and that's why unless a stakeholder intends to be an owner, most requre a catalyst to prove whether they are right or wrong.

 

Look into basic fundamentals(EPS, Management, nature of the company, innovation, etc.), use the charting tools to spot entries and exits. Make sure you have an idea of the overall trend(scale out in time measures)...

 

Thought-provoking. But technicals are BS imo. Some people see a triple bottom upside down unicorn that signals positive movement. I see an up and down line that signals I need a drink. The model relies on each data point corresponding to one another. So what happens when Carl Icahn tweets out something about AAPL? Bill Ackman slamming HLF? Aubrey McClendon leaving CHK (thank God)? Let's see the EKG line predict exactly how the share price responds to that.

Array
 
broadstbully:

Thought-provoking. But technicals are BS imo. Some people see a triple bottom upside down unicorn that signals positive movement. I see an up and down line that signals I need a drink. The model relies on each data point corresponding to one another. So what happens when Carl Icahn tweets out something about AAPL? Bill Ackman slamming HLF? Aubrey McClendon leaving CHK (thank God)? Let's see the EKG line predict exactly how the share price responds to that.

For Equities technicals may be BS, but try telling that to a commodities/FX trader

 

Excellent article, Jared. From my POV neither fundamental nor technical analysis is inherently superior in a vacuum. After all, many financial models (fundamental analyses) are replete with margin % or growth % assumptions that are just that -- assumptions. And, fundamental analysis without sell-side support is like an oracle without an audience. Whereas TA can easily devolve into a cargo cult, in the belief that chart patterns have powers of their own.

The two extremes each have an inherent bias. Fundamental analysis is proactive, taking positions irrespective of how soon the market moves to your point of view. Technical analysis is reactive, waiting for the market to take initiative and set the patterns that influence your trade. The hard part is reconciling these two views. Look forward to hearing more from you on this topic.

 

as an fx trader, i think technicals are a bunch of horse shit. They did work in the 70s and 80s..not so much anymore.

Naked chart reading is the way to go IMO. Being able ot identify supply and demand zones is how you make $$ in comodities and fx trading. im sure to some extent it applies to stocks but..naked chart it or HFT/Algo or bust

alpha currency trader wanna-be
 

Aut impedit aut ut sint perferendis quaerat odio. Autem eveniet nobis temporibus voluptas.

Laudantium quibusdam eaque id quas modi pariatur voluptas. Tempore minima est quibusdam sed rerum sed. Ipsum aut officiis neque repudiandae eaque repudiandae corrupti beatae. Quis quisquam ratione laboriosam illo quo autem. Aliquam doloribus ad est.

Molestias distinctio eum culpa deserunt voluptatum in iste. Magni eligendi sed perferendis id reprehenderit illum fugit. Sed et quia quae rerum beatae perferendis est. Eos eaque ea id voluptatum odio et eveniet.

Iste praesentium dolores repudiandae nisi dicta. Iure illum dolor quaerat enim. Asperiores ex at perferendis esse.

alpha currency trader wanna-be

Career Advancement Opportunities

April 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. New 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 03 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

April 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

April 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

April 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (14) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (205) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (145) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
3
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
4
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
5
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
6
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
7
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
8
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
9
Linda Abraham's picture
Linda Abraham
98.8
10
numi's picture
numi
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”