The Ivy Lie?
Trending Content
| +95 | Are you “less ambitious” for having long term goals outside of NYC | 24 | 9h | |
| +37 | Interviews Are So Fake | 24 | 10h | |
| +33 | 2024 UK Election - Tories finished? | 20 | 22h | |
| +29 | Being Christian in investment banking | 14 | 17h | |
| +26 | Is my boss gaslighting me? | 3 | 6d | |
| +25 | Non-Competes Banned | 17 | 4h | |
| +22 | Ideas for things to do with a free semester before starting ft? | 9 | 1d | |
| +20 | Sabotaging Peers to Get Ahead? | 34 | 4d | |
| +18 | Best NYC neighborhood for single 30M | 12 | 2d | |
| How do I become Sigma | 12 | 5h |
Career Resources
Fewer and fewer employers sponsor work visas.
yep, all my international friends are getting deported when they lose the Visa lottery
even those in high finance
You can study accounting in the Ivy League.
State schools are pretty much the same price (excluding in-state kids) so I can't see how you are saving money by going to one of those.
That's not true at all. Most ivy-league schools (maybe w/ the exception of Penn/Wharton) are liberal arts schools first and only and only offer economics as the closest business degree you can get. Even UG Wharton I believe is a degree in economics w/ concentrations in stuff (finance, management, etc.)
Also, unless you're getting financial aid from an Ivy they are most definitely more expensive. Out of state all in annually w/ room and board is ~$40-$45k whereas private Ivy schools are between $60-$65k/year.
Sure, you can't major in accounting. But it's still possible to get a CPA license by taking the right courses (and taking the test afterwards and work experience, etc)
State schools could be maybe 10k cheaper per year (I guess it does vary by the school, I just looked up UVA and they are 60k.). But overall, considering all the other misc. costs (flights back home, food, drinks,) that figure is not that big of a difference. For a student from China/Korea/Japan, it isn't unreasonable to budget 100k/year
You can't get a CPA by taking the right courses unless you're talking about Wharton. Princeton Bendheim, maybe? But I'm sure most others render it impossible to pursue an accounting career without having a Master's in Accountancy or in my home country, where one-year private tutor courses exist so that you can get the requirements for the AICPA, except for the latter I assume there are less on-campus recruiting opportunities?
I(thread poster) am thinking about doing an MAcc instead of wasting a universe's amount of money again on some sh*t MBA. Even if it's from an M7 I think an MBA these days is in half the cases a complete waste of time, since they 1) don't guarantee employment in banking/consulting, and 2) if they do offer you the foot in the door, they don't do much to keep you there vis-a-vis your competitors in the same firm.
I guess the utility function is somewhat different for US citizens, esp for those who have the right family connections. In many other cases, I think the whole elite course thing in America is severely overrated. I think the Ivies are still just that; finishing schools for the upper-middle class and above. In rare cases when you can get funded for both your undergraduate and graduate education can it be said an Ivy is a distinct advantage compared to state school education. If your parents have to pay from pocket, it's less worth it. especially if you're not from a wealthy family background. Notwithstanding the untold pressure from your parents who are paying, it just doesn't guarantee anything anymore.
For instance, I majored in economics; my advantage exists only in a job where economics is heavily utilized, and I have a much easier time getting a job related to my major and thus my previous work experience. Anything else is really hard to get into not just for the competition but simply because I lack the concrete knowledge. I took a shedload of philosophy courses as well, and that helps in many, many intangible ways, one of which is to realize that I went to the wrong school to do the wrong major given my background(...)
I have a hard time understanding what exactly makes the ivy league a "lie"
Obviously, no education guarantees a job in anything., and definitely don't guarantee you a job for life. An ivy league degree never has, and never will guarantee anything. A CPA license doesn't guarantee a job either.
So if ivy league schools are only worth it for upper middle class and above US citizens with family connections, then what about the countless numbers of successful alumni who are not from this category? If you think the only thing they learnt were manners and etiquette (as taught in finishing schools), then you are clearly wrong.
Of course your education only counts where you were educated. Do you expect a degree in economics to help if you want to be a professional alpinist or a parachute rigger? I don't get at all what you mean when you say you lack concrete knowledge, as you earlier mentioned you have an advantage in jobs where economics is heavily utilised. Your profile states you are an economist, that means that you are indeed successful.
I am having a difficult time understanding how you managed to go through a Ivy League education without realizing all this at some point, given that I have yet to start mine and I still understand these simple concepts.
When did attending an ivy or a top non-ivy (or really any school for that matter) guarantee anything? That was never, and is not, the purpose. No school you should attend will 'guarantee' you anything. The closest they will come to guaranteeing you an outcome is that if you graduate, you may have a certain reputation attached to you. What the schools do is provide you with an education and OPPORTUNITY, with some providing more of one or both. The concept of a school guaranteeing you a job/lifestyle/social circle is blatantly wrong.
And that 100k sticker is currently true but I entered school some 11 years ago and I think my family spent 200k max in all housing/meal plan/travel expenses/books, all costs combined for my degree.
Many people here(I am from one of those three countries you mentioned) spend ~100k for their college degree nowadays so up until 10 years ago or so studying abroad was a viable thing for upper middle class here but now...it's insanity. Better to just buy a house with that kind of money.
Or, if you want to be a CPA just go to UIUC, BYU, or UT Austin and save a boatload of time and money.
Yea, but you do realize tons of people get money at ivys?
Dear elitenotelitist,
I'm sorry but I don't get how you don't understand the simple, straightforward point I'm making -- that there is a widespread belief that "target schools" get you a job automatically by your just being there, but in reality, they don't. There is also the widespread belief that if you attend lower ranked schools you are cardinally worse off, which isn't true.
If parents and students would understand this simple point, there would be a hell lot less waste of money in college prep, which is to the benefit of everybody.
By the way, the title isn't even original; someone out of Duke who had to make ends meet by taking on vocational education has an entire blog about his rants against elite schools in general(its title is "The Ivy Lie"). I asked him "but cetaris paribus the same major, isn't an elite school always better?". He said "my point is not that elite education is bad per se, but that it doesn't automatically guarantee you a well paying job, which many, many families and students believe to be the case."
I still think there is a point to going to better ranked schools, but given the anti-vocationalism in the ivy league and top private schools, I think people should think carefully about whether to choose Harvard versus, say, UC Berkeley Haas or NYU Stern or Boston College, especially if you just want a steady job instead of specifically wahting high finance or consulting.
As for the point of the ivies being finishing schools, the very fact that the school hierarchy and the skewed curriculum renders vocational pursuits less meaningful and GPA and pedigree all there is to it, it effectively has the same impact on jobseekers and employers that the elite schools function as some sort of finishing school. And no, they don't learn etiquette and table manners, but they do learn how to think like American(and Western) establishment. If you don't agree with me, then ask William Deresewicz.
Well I don't think that there is a widespread misconception that just attending a ivy league school gets you a job automatically. I think it is limited to a small number of very poorly educated people.
You mentioned Berkeley, NYU and Boston College which are all pretty good places and require at least some degree of college prep to attend. These places aren't exactly "vocational" anyways. For example, the difference between Harvard and Boston College (apart from the prestige and OCR and all that) would mostly be that BC would have that Catholic ethos and Harvard would be Protestant. Boston College isn't a trade school.
College prep isn't about a "hell lot" money anyways, it is mostly hard work and long hours. In any case, you still need to do "college prep" to get into Berkeley or BC or NYU (or that caliber of university).
By the way, NYU is probably the most expensive school in the USA if not the world, and famous for being stingy on aid to both Americans and non-Americans alike.
As a graduate of two Ivy league schools, I can confidently say that if you believe that any school "guarantees" you anything, the problem is not the school, it's your own idiocy.
If you want to get into a whole ROI/is an Ivy League school x% better than y school that's an entirely different kettle of fish.
That's a terrible idea. Since you're looking at Big 4 most likely. I'd go to a no name (maybe not no name, but like UTDallas or UNT) and get my BS in ACCT, kick ass and get into a great school's MS in ACCT (SMU, UT, TCU).
That seems like the best way if you wanna go accounting.
Interestingly enough, I work at a place full of US PhDs, and I've had offers from JPM and MS front office, which I rejected since I thought I needed more education
and I make some good points on WSO, and some kid just bashes you? Am I supposed to feel okay?
I apologise for hurting your feelings.
Dude you just sound crazy right now, if you've really had offers from JPM and MS why would you be crying about how bad is your ivy experience? do you even know how hard is it to get an interview at these places if you didnt go to an ivy school ? or HEC/INSEAD/LSE?
Your whole post and comments dont make sense. There is no Ivy lie if that's what you came to prove. These schools are indeed some of the most prestigious in the world. and no free jobs just like no free lunch in the real world, I hope you understand this and stop arguing.
You create the kind of negativity that people actively avoid. You should be aware of that and adjust accordingly.
DickFuld apparently he didn't have enough education. Somewhat ironic considering he claims he has a top economics degree from a ivy league school
You can make more than 40k selling cars.
Similar situation of some people I know. Good school, major doesn't pay a ton.
This. Sales is king. If you have a degree and a pulse, they'll give you a job. Then its up to you.
That's exactly why I'm in sales.
Except I'm slinging to F100 instead of cars to grandma and grandpa.
Excellent troll post
I sense some mental health issues at play here …
I'm pretty sure my mental health suffered after this series of discussions!
Yeah this was hard to follow.
Havent read a nice troll post in a while, thanks for that!
But srsly, yeah with the way the H1B Visa lottery is going, fewer and fewer employers are sponsoring visas for longer-term positions. Know somebody who went to HYP, worked at a BB and had to leave the US coz his Visa didn't get picked.
Life can suck sometimes but meh, despite being in a shitty position right now you never know how things turn out in a few years right?
You obviously didn't do well in school or have absolutely 0 people skills if you can't find a decent job in the US after getting an economics degree from an Ivy league school. Nothing to be ashamed of, but you're not gonna find sympathy here
givenchy_lion he did get jobs though, he turned them down due to lack of education
"grass is always greener" or "glass is half empty" will be the quotes on his tombstone. absolutely ridiculous thread.
Go to Big 4 @ transfer to the US in 2-3 years @ no dealing with lottery
Great post. Air conditioning is also a lie, just use a fan
Don't want to risk Fan Death
No pain no gain
In this economy an electric fan is the best cooling solution for internationals. Even some Americans that have their air fully conditioned are still warm. I say you should ditch the AC's unless you want to use a setting they offer and your cooling goals are aligned with that setting
For some reason this thread restores my faith in the recruiting process at banks. Hopefully normal well-adjusted kids from IU or UW Madison or UIUC took the spots this guy turned down.
"Thoughts?"
Fuck you.
Sounds like a you problem.
Nothing like some great entertainment for my slow Tuesday morning this August. Sounds like the OP is just a miserable guy cause he thought he would be swimming in money just for attending an Ivy League... sorry bro but hard work gets you there, not your school.
Should have tried a 'prestigious' European university. Much much cheaper and viewed as equal to harvard etc if you wish to work anywhere but the US.
Cambridge, Oxford, and INSEAD are not "much much cheaper" than the ivies. lol...
Cambridge and Oxford are approx 14k pounds (for non EU/UK) and 7k pounds for UK and EU students. Heck of a lot cheaper than 60k USD tuition at an ivy league school.
Tuition costs £9,000 ($12,000) per year for UK and EU students at Oxford or Cambridge. £22,500 ($30,000) for international students.
Tuition costs around $45,000 at Princeton for both US and International students and goes to $60,000 when including room and board.
Quite a big difference. 'Lol'
What exactly did you recruit for? I'm an Ivy grad and yes, some internationals did not get sponsored / win the Visa lottery, but most did manage to secure roles in London, Singapore, or HK if they were not able to in the US... None of these places pays THAT poorly (yes there is some fluctuation, but not as severe as your initial post indicated). Even two who ended up at MBB in Africa are still living fairly well and have the option to transfer offices in a couple years.
As the saying goes, Happiness = Reality - Expectations. Since your reality doesn't sound that bad (ivy education, turned down multiple good job offers, etc.), your expectations must have been absurd.
Or, troll game strong.
Eventhough this is likely a troll post, I will post my own experience as an international. Though I didn't go to an ivy, my school was what many would consider a 'target' (or semi-target at worst).
Without divulging too much detail, I ended up doing a BB S&T program my junior summer - my focus was on fixed income (particularly on structured credit). Long-story short, the BB I interned at was notorious for summer analyst retention and even after pretty good reviews (decent at worst), I was one of the ~60% who did not get offers that year - mostly due to the bank overhiring interns that year and the fact that fixed income at that firm had taken a massive hit (and has been shrinking considerably till date like at most banks). Might have also been just bad luck/timing/not the right group - but only so much you can control and blame yourself for.
This was a few years ago so I am guessing people are used to this now, but back then it was a sin not getting a return offer (particularly from an S&T program) and americans and internationals alike struggled to get jobs - it took me a while to get a job (at a tiny firm) and I was doing something really different that I had set out to do and at a much lower comp level.
Ive changed jobs ever since, but im finding it increasingly hard to get another job (partly coz of Visa, partly coz I didn't do something super transferable like IBD and most importantly for not having a brand name company on my resume) - in addition getting increasingly frustrated and not being 'comped' properly for what I do compared to others who went the BB route and are now in buyside roles simply because I was an 'unlucky' one. But w/o divulging too much detail, there's always a silver lining to things. There are definitely a couple of things (work-related) that are going right for me at this point and its important not to lose track of that and how everything plays into the bigger picture.
Again, this was likely a troll post so not sure how much its going to help the OP (LOL!) but hopefully anyone else who is in the same situation as I was can benefit from this. And if anything, im really thankful for the education, and more importantly the experience I had at my (also expensive) school.
I find that international students, particularly Asians and Africans, have a romanticized view about the way employers perceive these schools and what attending actually affords you. Their advantages were more pronounced in the past century w/ the class divisions (connected students = terrific outcomes), but aside from a better opportunity at recruiting and building a strong network, expecting guaranteed placement into the most competitive fields and an automatic Visa is beyond absurd.
The "Ivy Lie" is the one these over-expectant students continue to tell themselves.
.
Guys, just a word of advice from a fellow international:
The Visa situation is overblown. Most banks will move you to Canada or the UK for a year and bring you back once your Visa is approved. As long as you're working for a bulge bracket in a front office role, you'll be fine. You may have to leave the US for a year, that's it.
Untrue - know plenty of folks who were given the boot altogether or were sent abroad and unable to come back (depends on the bank though).
Also - not everyone works at a FO BB role so not everyone has that choice.
"As long as you're working for a bulge bracket in a front office role, you'll be fine. "
Just go marry a US citizen. What's the problem?
All ivies should be need blind for both international and domestic students, sadly this is not the case
OP, you do know that you have the ability to network and look around for other jobs in your current home country now that perhaps pay better. If you are in the EU there is a good chance you can travel to other countries without a work Visa. If you are in Asia, finding another job shouldn't be hard at all. They love name brand Ivy degrees out there. Keep looking for work is my suggestion. When all else fails, go get a job in software sales and make some money.
From the perspective of a non-citizen living in the US, part of the problem may be that many people in the US believe strongly in a naive, formulaic approach to life.
eg "If I work hard, I can boot-strap myself to success" "All I need to do is be true to myself" "If I stalk this girl hard enough like in every romantic comedy movie Hollywood produces, I will get the girl" "If I work hard and get a good education, I'll get a good job, a nice car and a hot wife" "If I work hard, go to a target school and get a >3.5 GPA, I'll get a job on Wall Street" "If I network hard and follow all the other guides on WSO, I'll get a job on Wall Street"
I have pet theories that this outlook has a symbiotic relationship with American consumerism, but I'll leave that to the side.
The US national mythology and education systems strongly encourage this type of thinking.
When people follow the formula and it fails to deliver, they feel cheated. The system must be broken, because they followed the system and didn't get the rewards they were promised.
When the resentment hits a certain point, you get a load of people voting for Trump and his ilk, who draw support by claiming the myths should be true, therefore it must be that the system is broken and people are being cheated of their just rewards.
Before Trump, it was the Tea Party insisting on a return to the founding fathers' system (ie return to the original system of rules that people believe will give them the rewards they were promised).
This sort of view seems quite common among white middle class Americans and others who have historically benefited from the entrenched systems of unfairness in the US. For African Americans and Hispanics - less so, because the old (and most of the new) systems never worked for them, mainly worked against them.
It makes me suspect that the myths of certain steps to success that white America clings so hard to today were only ever true when it came at the expense of gross unfairness to a whole load to underclasses. White America's myths of fairness were underwritten by the blood, sweat and tears of people excluded from fairness.
In short, if you feel cheated or lied to that doing A, B & C didn't deliver rewards X, Y & Z, it's likely that it's your fault for being stupidly naive and believed outdated myths.
Wait? So Lloyd Dobler is a myth and holding a Ghetto Blaster above your head blasting In Your Eyes at dawn won't get you the validictorian of your class? What a rip off. Thanks for nothing Cameron Crowe!
Maybe not valedictorian. But I'm sure you could try that technique at the security turnstiles of GS to get an internship.
The simple fact is that the Value of tertiary education has peaked- and is on the decline. There are too many graduates, and for fewer job opportunities. It doesn't help with the declining economy. In twenty years time, I'd say that the ivy leagues will have less merit than they do today. Anyone can read a book today and route learn. Computers are the future, and robots are replacing jobs everywhere, which isn't helping the value for Ivy League schools.
That being said, if you have Ivy League school, the brand is still valuable today - although it has peaked. If you hungry and determined enough, and network hard, like the success stories on WSO, your ivy degree will come in handy - especially in Asia. It's not easy, but you prob not trying hard enough.
I personally - being of the younger generation - (ie. Late 20s) - don't think Ivy League is worth it anymore, but the old school mentally still has some associated value towards it. That will change in time, as society adopts and changes with the generation trend and moves further into the Information Age.
Ça y est les gars, on peut se calmer un petit peu non? @zidane Je comprends bien tes émotions mec. mais si tu as eu les offres du JPM et les autres il faillait les prendre. En tout cas, aller à une grande école facilite les choses sans question. Il n'y a jamais eu et il n'y aura jamais des garanties au niveau du travail après. Ils vont te donner la meilleure voiture, c'est à toi de la conduire! =)
Est cum qui repellat. Nihil iure voluptatem fugiat nobis quae. Vel qui tenetur expedita. Voluptatem qui est minus animi pariatur.
A cupiditate quia quis possimus veritatis. Et odit quis iusto nisi quis incidunt eos. Qui cum et quia doloremque eos quibusdam eum. Qui dolorem quos quia et ducimus. Sint sed est ex est ad modi. Sit sapiente facere pariatur est dolor nemo praesentium.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Maiores vero libero quis at inventore maxime. Sit officia velit tempora delectus laborum maiores repudiandae qui. Et repellat aperiam ut dolorem. Totam illo architecto nostrum corrupti eaque libero et. Sint deleniti cum praesentium nulla. Laudantium quos eum et.
Veritatis est atque iste eligendi labore facere reprehenderit. Officiis voluptatem eum tenetur voluptas voluptatum repudiandae. Delectus ipsum accusamus maxime sunt quia itaque dolorum. Enim sint qui quis facilis commodi eaque rerum. Molestias voluptates consequuntur nobis quibusdam error assumenda. Sit maxime officia consequatur vitae suscipit deleniti sit.
Sit vero fugiat sequi est ab quia. Reiciendis eos et minima. Ab natus sed quae ipsam.
Ullam perspiciatis nihil ea ipsum voluptatem nostrum culpa. At quod pariatur accusantium ea earum porro rem voluptatem. Magnam voluptatibus sed et. Quia error aut adipisci id eveniet rem autem.
Deserunt accusamus similique aliquid et commodi cumque et. Occaecati eum est nisi a nesciunt laborum saepe. In alias dolores minima nam molestiae vitae ea. Et et aut nostrum tempora fugiat. Aspernatur necessitatibus soluta in aut hic. Labore quia beatae et culpa ratione ut. Aut reiciendis qui explicabo est illo molestias.
Accusamus labore occaecati quidem earum consectetur quidem dolorem quam. Nihil sunt in consectetur et enim aliquam. Ut aut alias autem vel. Suscipit rerum soluta non laudantium facere. Et aliquid molestias sed qui voluptas.
Et distinctio placeat laudantium voluptas recusandae maiores. Natus autem rerum sunt voluptas animi. Sit expedita sunt delectus quo nesciunt provident.
Aut aspernatur omnis qui. Ullam et vel sapiente voluptatem. Vero quasi velit mollitia accusantium sed et sit necessitatibus. Quam totam in ex error saepe dolorem laboriosam et. Voluptas minus quod officiis quaerat consequatur voluptas dignissimos.