The Myth of the "Target School"

Don't know if I agree with you entirely. Yes, there are a lot of schools represented - but there seem to be 8-10 schools that dominate and the rest are just one- or two-offs (as you said). The most common schools (in no particular order) at my summer: Wharton, Princeton, Yale, Cornell, Harvard, Dartmouth, Columbia, Ross, Stern, Georgetown, Stanford. Schools that tend to be represented repeatedly (but only have a few kids in each class) - Williams, LACs, Amherst, Morehouse, Texas, Indiana, Penn State, Tufts, Baruch, Notre Dame. Granted, this is for NYC, so I'm sure this general trend doesn't necessarily apply elsewhere.

All that being said, I still think target schools are overrepresented (but perhaps not vastly so), especially in top groups. I was at one of the groups that most monkeys here masturbate to (think GS TMT/FIG, MS M&A, BX R&R), and only two kids were not from the first group of schools listed above.

Purely anecdotal, I know, but thought I'd throw in my two cents.

What bank did you summer at boobielover? Was it Credit Suisse by any chance? I have a hard time believing you didn't meet any summer analysts from Northwestern, Duke, or UVA McIntire.

BX is well known to be very, very heavy on Ivies. That remained true for PE/R&R/M&A this year. Just look on Linkedin....

EDIT: For what it's worth, my BB was also heavy on Ivies, but Michigan, Notre Dame, and Georgetown all had great representation as well.

U Chicago?

What about Devry?

eldiablo4857:

What bank did you summer at boobielover? Was it Credit Suisse by any chance? I have a hard time believing you didn't meet any summer analysts from Northwestern, Duke, or UVA McIntire.

Rather not say, but I actually didn't meet any kids from the schools you mentioned. Obviously this is attributable to sample bias, since I'm sure there were kids from all three schools. I think Duke is the only one with a stronger presence, though - Northwestern and McIntire (from hearsay) weren't nearly as well represented (probably more in line with a Williams/LAC).

Every school i read in this thread besides devry and UGA has a fairly strong line of students who end up in banking. They don't get target benefits, but they typically place a couple of kids into banking overall.

when you get into literally no name schools like american, umass, uc davis and god knows where else... there is basically no representation at all from year to year.

SureThing:

What about Devry?

Deepest alumni base on the street.

When I was a f/t analyst at a top BB ( GS, MS, JPM) the top three feeder schools in my analyst class were Georgetown, Wharton & Duke.

I always thought "target schools" were schools that the BB banks targeted, i.e. held on campus recruitment on.

Sure you can be the best, most well connected, kid at Penn State one year and get in to Goldman, but for a random highschool kid to think "oh wow, this one guy got in from PSU, so can I!" it is ridiculous because they are outliers and the PSU grad might have been his fraternity president, student government president, finance club president, and have a 3.95 GPA while his dad is the executive vice president of a F500 company.

'Targets' and their students dominate the 'Street, the system is alive and well... not sure why you think some 'one-off' cases indicate a shift away

Though I always admire the non-target hustle game, I really don't think any of this is groundbreaking news. There are rockstars at every big ass state school and if they're good enough to be one of the most competitive candidate out of 50-fucking-thousand students, then yes, they're typically competitive enough to get one of 80+ spots in a BB's summer class. I feel like these sort of class demographics are posted every year as some sort of original insight, but the mix hasn't significantly shifted for a few years now.

I don't understand all the hype UVA gets. Sure, in terms of raw placement, the school might put out decent numbers, but people forget that the school is twice the size as the true targets (Duke, Georgetown, ...)

It's also still a state school, so you still get a lot of people who could have gotten into a better school, but went to UVA because of the lower tuition.

.

oneupsmanship:

I've got a friend at Baruch and she told me they had pretty good placement for Summer 2013.

UBS Industrials
UBS C&R
Moelis
DB TMT
GS TMT
JPM M&A
JPM FIG
Citi LevFin
SG LevFin

What are you even saying? A semi-target w/ a great location placed like a dozen kids? That's not an earth shattering move away from the traditional Ivy recruiting

I'm saying that placement at semi-target schools have been doing better year after year. They placed a lot better than my top liberal arts college...

duplicate

reformed:

I don't understand all the hype UVA gets.
Sure, in terms of raw placement, the school might put out decent numbers, but people forget that the school is twice the size as the true targets (Duke, Georgetown, ...)

It's also still a state school, so you still get a lot of people who could have gotten into a better school, but went to UVA because of the lower tuition.

But at the same time, UVA outpaces many of the state schools that are twice the size of them (for quick reference, UVA is at 14.6K, Penn is at 10.3K, Michigan is at 28K, IU is at 32K). So sure, some of it is just more numbers but some of it is also the fact they are doing something right. So you might not label them a true target but they aren't a state school in the sense that you aren't competing with 30K other students and OCR is very strong.

As far as your last point, I'm not exactly sure what your point is. I'm assuming it is that you'll be competing with smart individuals which is true of any target. But it is still easier to get into UVA out of state than most if not all targets, granted you still have to get into their undergraduate business school once there. I wish I knew more about UVA for undergrad b/c if you can't get into a true target, it does seem to place disproportionately for a school with twice the acceptance rate of many other targets.

Joshua93:

I don't know why people are surprised by Big 10 representation. They are mostly state flagships, so you always have a few in-state rockstars that turned down HYS for a full ride. The smartest guy I know did that. And don't forget, they are HUGE schools, so they have pure volume on their side. In IB, you typically have:

- Michigan at the top, which is obviously a school of extremely high quality that speaks for itself.

- Indiana, which has made waves recently, and most people who have worked an SA gig know has a hardcore workshop program designed around IB (look at your Rosenbaum and Pearl "about the authors")

- Wisconsin, which is well-known around the country, a great value school, and always has a few kids place into high-end careers whether it be in Medicine, Law, Business, etc. Wisconsin has always been highly regarded, so I don't get the shock and awe here either.

I generally agree with this. The Big 10 doesn't have much "prestige," but most of its schools are excellent. That said, target schools usually get the best recruiting/representation.

What I was told was that this was more due to the fact that at these Targets (or 8-10 schools), Elite Boutiques are more focused on experience and being able to hit the ground running rather than the "name" of these schools. These 8-10 schools, even though not all undergrad business, do have an established enough knowledge base of finance/banking.

Arizona State is an outlier, they've always had weirdly high placement. I've worked in both banking and AM and in both cases there was the one-off ASU kid or two every summer class. I think it's because of a couple finance professors there that are aggressive about using their connections to help out their smarter students. So if you're considering ASU that's good news, but don't use it as a proxy for any random state school being a good option.

In my honest opinion target schools exists and they are not a myth. They are target because banks aim to recruit people from there, which does not mean that they feed an entire IB group with kids that go to target schools. Basically, no investment bank did OCR at my university because it is a non-targets but many people from non-targets get into top IBs

What I think is that a target makes it much more easier for a student to break into IB but I personally think that non-target students put more effort in breaking into IB when they realise how unfair their situation is compared to target school student

Not a myth.

As a person who spent a year at a decent UC (not UCLA or UCB) and transferred to a target school, I think I can offer a credible perspective.

Target schools benefit over non-targets from the following: Network, a proven playbook, and like-minded peers.

Network: A simple fact in life is that people like to help and work with others who are similar. The lack of a network in non-targets is IMO one of the biggest drawbacks, especially if you're like me and knew no one in finance. Yes, the few non-target alums will tend to be very supportive and understand the struggle but as a student, networking is more a numbers game than "real" adult networking and this limits the amount and range of people you can draw from the well.

Proven playbook: In target schools, there are processes you can follow that significantly increase your odds in landing a finance role. Keep up the grades, contact alums, take part in clubs, do OCR, etc. Both the school and the companies basically tell you the steps you need to take to land something. It's not guaranteed but its straightforward enough. Non-targets have no playbook and you need to figure out everything on your own. Forums like WSO help but every school's situation is a little different. I was able to land a finance internship while at the UC but I was so confused while job searching for 1/2 a year and required me to do 200+ cold calls.

Like-minded peers: Ever tried doing something that your friends have no interest in helping you figure out? That shit is frustrating and lonely. Even though having peers interested in finance ups the competition, it helps a TON to have people you can talk with about how recruiting works, prep interviews, etc.

Can you make it from a non-target? Absolutely. 5-6 kids who were 1-2 years older than me made it to BB IBD from the UC. The thing is that they figured it out together and formed an inner circle that I wasn't able to be a part of. I knew pretty early on the odds were against me trying to compete on my own against UCLA, Stanford, etc which is why I made the switch.

William & Mary?

The "target" school is most definitely not a myth. Personally, I think there's a huge difference in being a non-target in the sense that at least a couple MM banks come on campus vs a "non-existent", in which recruiters for FO jobs like banking(including CB) and management consulting won't even visit your campus, not even for the very top student. At a non-target where MM banks come, you can still get into the industry. Going to a non-existant is a completely different ball game, it's basically a death sentence(in recruiting) if you're a straight white male.

So, all of the schools you mentioned have specialized clubs that place ~20 people onto Wall Street a year, with the exception of Indiana which is probably more on par with Michigan/UVA in terms of placement. Boutiques recruit from these clubs just like BBs do, with examples such as UGA and Moelis, ASU and Perella, Wisconsin and Rothschild, BYU and Lazard, and more.

From what I understand, it really doesn't have anything to do with family connections or x student was accepted to ivy but chose in-state (especially when ivies will let you go for free if you can't afford it). Frankly, I personally would be pretty offended if people automatically assumed I got into x bank because of connections due to the school I went to. Rather, these clubs usually end up acting as very strong mentorship programs, where juniors and seniors pass on information on how to network and approach recruiting to the underclassmen.

That doesn't mean target schools are a myth or anything. The schools you mentioned will place 3-4 kids at 3-4 banks, where the alumni networks are concentrated at. Ohio State for example places with GS and Barclays regularly, while Rutgers is a huge target for Citi. Beyond that, recruiting will start becoming very one-off. A target school on the other hand will place 3-4 kids at 15+ banks. Whereas the kid from a non-target still has to network his/her butt off at banks with alumni, the kid from a target can just relax and resume drop during OCR. At the end of the day, there is still a huge difference in terms of opportunity set coming from a target versus non-target, though that gap has shrunk tremendously in recent years and continues to do so.

Hope that clears up some of the misconceptions being posted in this thread. The lack of placement from these schools really has less to do with people not being "rockstars" or whatever, but more to do with lack of interest and information. Most people in these schools don't come from the top 1% backgrounds you see in the Harvard social clubs. As such, they don't understand the benefits of going into investment banking/the career paths that open up as a result. Doesn't mean they work any less hard - they just never possessed the same information set, and as such don't feel the same pressure as students from targets.

Perhaps a subset of the topic, recruiting at "semi targets". I think this applies to several industries, not just banking (banking, consulting, tech, even FLDPs). Use banking as an example. A semi target may get a visit from GS, JPM, MS but:

1. This tends to be singular per yr vs. heavy OCR at targets. They may be looking for that diamond in the rough or just trying out a new pool. The kids think "wow, GS recruits at my school" because they do one info session but then GS goes to targets and does the whole deal (coffee hours, network sessions, info sessions, investment club presentations, etc.) Can't really compare the two.

2. They may visit a semi target, but they're not actually recruiting for the same jobs. In IB it may be limited to certain verticals or a specific product (DCM as an example) while the M&A guys /gals are coming from the pure targets. They may need to fill a role in a regional office near by vs. NYC.

It's better than no recruiting but it's not the same as being a target. Someone made the comment of "following the playbook". That is so on point. Get good grades, join and be active in the right clubs, attend the OCR and the target kids certainly have an advantage.

Doable form anywhere, just takes far more work.

most of the kids from ASU or other non-targets that make it into IB are trust-fund babies. Penn State, Indiana, UWisconsin all have IB clubs which place well, but are extremely hard to get into. thats probably where those kids are coming from.

Target schools arent a myth, but you arent fucked if u dont go to one. As long as ur at a T40 and u network u should be good.

This post is from 2013 though so i doubt any of the guys that ocmmented before me are gonna see this lol

It matters more for consulting.

There's always been a lot of representation outside of the Ivy's - it's just a tougher climb

So no Baruch?

OP was from a regional office so not surprising. Especially if in a "unappealing geographic area". Not sure which region he's at now but could help explain it.

https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/hfs-from-a-bb-regional-office

Hey all,

I was hoping to get some advice on how the recruiting game works for HF's for analysts at regional offices of BB's? I'm a first year in a top group at GS/MS/JPM, but am in a somewhat unappealing geographic area in terms of finance (albeit a great place for just about everything else).

I'm from a big 10 school (UMD, Ohio State, Penn State) and broke in. It definitely isn't easy. But the alumni rep super hard and are willing to do anything to get more kids in from the school.

For example, there is a huge base of kids from UF at Evercore. If there is one MD at the firm, they'll typically run a recruiting process each year and bring in 1-2 kids.

I agree, I think it's definitely becoming more diverse.

I feel like larger banks have broader alumni networks that can open up doors for kids from a wider range of schools. I feel like this is less true at elite boutiques and certain up and coming banks.

Wharton? WASP? You're thinking of Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. In that order.

To be honest, I think that the industry as a whole is beginning to shift away from the notion of the Target School.

In all fairness, you have to realize that an alumnus who is a director at a Bank/AM/Fund/Etc. is more inclined to hire from his/her Alma Mater simply because it is something each have in common, most people take pride in where they went to school, and hiring managers/directors are looking for something distinguishable in candidates; where most of the time technical skills (and even soft skills these days) are not a differentiator. Also, you've got to take into account the rigor of the programs. If an individual who's deciding the hiring thinks that "X" school has "the best" program, when they see an applicant who went through that particular program their human bias will kick in and favor that candidate based upon an assumption that the hiring manager developed in their head without true insight (because they didn't attend "X" school). These top business school lists catalyze this way of thinking and, in my opinion, the due diligence behind the lists typically aren't thorough.

Recently, as we've begun to see a generational shift to the Gen Z's and the baby boomer generation has begun to age/retire/what have you, heightened social awareness, diversity, worry of hurting others' feelings, and similar ideas have begun to shift the American culture in a way that forces business, politics, and laws to change (ie: Gay Marriage; Loosened regulation of Marijuana on the state level; #MeToo Movement; Acceptance of a non-binary gender spectrum on a macro level in America and throughout many developed countries; Generational music preferences shifting towards EDM & creating a mainstream drug/rave culture). Therefore, in order to stay relevant in the public's eye and seem as if we all care about society's feelings over our bottom lines/profits, our financial services industry must also follow suit. If we don't, the F500's of tomorrow, run by today's Gen Z's who hold these progressive viewpoints and generations that follow in their footsteps (who seemingly become more progressive), will not give our industry trust; ultimately leading to no business, clients, deals to do, and depressing profits.

Due to this paradigm shift, the inclusive "Target School" mentality is fading... and very quickly. For example, GS & MS have been attempting to recruit heavily from non-target school across the country (I personally see it on the west coast) and their HR depts. have each put out progressive articles about their shift in recruiting practices (not to mention I've conversed with some ex-recruiters at GS about the shift). I also believe recruiters are realizing that a driven, ambitious individual exists outside of target schools. I'd go as far to say that non-targets are MORE driven and willing to take lower pay, work their asses off around the clock, and go to other extremities just to get in at the entry-level.

At my EB the target school plays a big role. 1) Our HR recruiting department is like 4 people and 2) we only need a class of ~30 for NY rather than 100+ like the BBs. It makes no sense from a time perspective for us to go to a whole bunch of schools outside the USNEWS top 15. I counted and of the ~30 in our class maybe like 8 were outside the top 15-20. And even then they went to like BU/Emory/the Canadian schools, etc. not like Ball State.

Even within those top 15 schools it is concentrated on ~5-6 which are the ones we host actual OCR interviews at and have MDs/bankers that went there and push hard. Not to say it's impossible for a non-target but the 8 non-targets are either 1) rockstars at their schools (class president, head of finance club, great internships, etc.) or 2) have a very good connection (this is often the case for the majority of the target kids as well FYI)

UGA Dawgs representing! Terry ,their business school, is really expanding. Goldman Sachs recently starting doing recruiting there. McKinney also just hired a UGA bro I know.

I can only speak anecdotally but the advantages of "targets" really do seem to be over blown. They will help you get an internship but not much more than that. Employers care about the person and not the CV at the end of the day. If you are going to be successful at Wharton or HBS, you will be successful at the local state school. Also, half of the Harvard (business) grads I know are either miserable, alcoholics, or just mean cold people.

I'm an ASU grad who went into banking and private equity. Worked full-time at a hedge fund while in college and had a very strong resume when I graduated. Had to do 30+ interviews, but ended up with 3 banking offers, all from top-tier banks. While ASU won't produce 100 top candidates, there are always 4-5 in each class who can compete with any Ivy League grad.

I went to one of the nontargets you listed in the second paragraph so I can share a little insight on what goes on at my school.

We have an extremely exclusive club that relentlessly pushes its members into IB and ONLY IB (boasting a 100% placement rate). Think - memorizing M&I guide nonstop, tons of trips to IB cities, teaching kids how to game their underclassman GPA, test banks, exclusive networking with club alumni, secretive OCR not announced and obviously not open to non-club members, etc. The club also recruits straight out of target high schools and some well connected freshmen - so if haven't decided you want to do IB by the age of 17 or 18, you're fucked.

Just a little friendly FYI on the background of those nontargets you met, at least at my school. Out of all the nontargets in IB, I'm confident 99.9% belong to a specialized "target" club. Target schools are still very much a thing. Man, wouldn't I love to inflate my GPA with a Kinesiology major from a target, then just memorize M&I for 2 weeks...