I know a bunch of PhDs fairly well, and their overwhelming advice is don't do it unless you plan to be in academia. The number of years away from the workforce really isn't worth it. There are essentially no logical arguments in favor of the PhD in industry except for in some very weird niche cases, and even those are arguable.

Be excellent to each other, and party on, dudes.
 

Later on it is, but starting out as a TA and working up from there probably takes a longer time than we imagine and pay isn't great until you're a lot higher up. This is also really dependent on what you have a PhD in. If you go to a public school in certain states, you can look up what your professors make and see that business/engineering professors naturally make a lot more than, say, liberal arts professors.

That isn't to say it wouldn't be interesting and the benefits (work-life balance, opportunity to perform research, etc.) are certainly something to consider.

Quant (ˈkwänt) n: An expert, someone who knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing.
 

I would not do a Ph.D unless it was in Machine Learning, Math, Physics, or similar. Unless you happen to live in a major city, there aren't that many options. Usually mundane research work, with pay that almost identical to what you'd get with a Masters.

From what I've heard, a Ph.D can be tough. One of my classmates from Uni switched to chem, and got his Ph.D - apparently the workload was brutal.

On the other side, my other friends pursued Ph.D in Machine Learning, and they're all enjoying themselves - probably due to the intense interest in the topic.

What's your motivation?

 
Most Helpful

I started a PhD in financial economics at one of the world's top universities and left with just a master's degree. I am obviously biased since I already made my decision to leave, but it's generally not worth it. It's significantly harder to make it to the top of academia than it is to make MD/Partner in a bank or fund. A PhD is first and foremost a research degree. It is meant to prepare the next generation of researchers in a field. If you're not intending to conduct research for a career, getting a PhD isn't worth it in almost all cases.

What's more, a PhD will probably make you overqualified for a lot of analyst and associate roles, so it actually closes more doors than it opens to research or academic positions. You are also quite isolated in your studies and write for an audience of maybe a few dozen or few hundred people. And as a rule, you can generally only move down the prestige ladder as an academic. While it's not impossible to get a PhD from, say, University of Minnesota (which has a decent program actually) and get a tenure-track role at MIT, it's exceedingly rare. As a result, you're likely to be teaching students and conducting research at a lesser institution than you attended.

And in a field like economics or finance, the tenure-track positions are so insanely competitive that any academic placement is seen as an achievement (even if you're coming from a top-10 PhD program). Moreover, your PhD years in a b-school or economics department aren't as laid back as MBA programs. I know some of you seem to think MBAs are a lot of work, but if we're honest here, the VAST majority of Harvard/Wharton/Stanford MBAs would not pass the first year or second year exams (prelims and qualifiers) that PhD students take. In truth, they wouldn't get into the PhD programs at those same schools in the first place.

With all that said, if you're coming from a developing country or from Nowheresville, USA, going to a PhD program on a stipend might make sense for you. It gets you out of your country or small town, and gives you a chance to prove yourself relying on nothing but your mind. It comes with a lot of drawbacks, and the risks/opportunity costs are relatively high, but it still makes sense for some people.

 

Terrible idea. If you want to get your PhD because you love the topic you plan on studying, then go get a PhD. In no way way should a 5-year detour be a reasonable "gateway" to consulting.

If you want to get into consulting, go find a more direct way of getting into consulting. Ross has a decent track record for MBB and is not a bad option.

I recently read resumes for PhD candidates for MBB, and trust me, your odds of getting an interview are slim to begin with. As far as professorships, those might be harder to obtain than getting into MBB, and the pay sucks.

 

master's at an ivy costs $60.000 per year. part of the point of getting into a ph.d. program is to get funding--could leave after passing exams for master's though, cutting down time to degree.

 
nerdspeak:
master's at an ivy costs $60.000 per year. part of the point of getting into a ph.d. program is to get funding--could leave after passing exams for master's though, cutting down time to degree.

sounds like a plan there.

 

I wouldn't get into a Ph.D. program in strategy or finance. And yes, I'm okay with that possibility--or at least far more okay with that possibility than I am with going into debt for NYU Stern and then not being able to pay back my loans.

As a complete aside, I actually am really interested in political economy and in an ideal world would be a professional scholar, but I realize that, even coming out of Harvard, the chances of my getting a tenure-track job are less than 50-50.

 

Engineering PhD student here and applying for consulting firms this fall. You should really weigh your options before pursuing a PhD for these reasons:

(1) from my experience networking with MBB, 2nd tier, and boutique firms, the vast majority of hires are undergrads and MBA's. In one anecdote, a first-year consultant with an undergrad degree in liberal arts told me he's never used excel before - this was from a 2nd-tier firm. Therefore, I think with some practice, such as mental math and estimation math exercises, you can perhaps better demonstrate your quantitative abilities at the interview.

(2) A PhD is a long term commitment, perhaps more so for science and engineering, which is my field and generally takes >5 years. As mentioned by others, don't pursue a PhD on a topic you don't enjoy - you will live and breathe your research! Getting out early with a master's is not uncommon and might be a good choice if you plan ahead of time.

(3) I assure you that at the present pace, the growth of academia will remain stagnant and it's highly unlikely you can secure a professor position (science or liberal arts) after graduation. Generally you will need an addition 2-4 years of post-doc experience.

The recruiting season is far from over - there's still time to get a few more interviews and see you can break through. Good luck!

 

I have a PhD in particle physics and I'm now a consultant at an MBB firm. Two thoughts:

1) Your chances of getting a tenure-track job in political science are a LOT less than 50%. 5% is probably an aggressive number.

2) If it was genuinely your arithmetic skills that were holding you back, I don't know that 2-3 years of practice are going to sharpen your skills enough. The skills that they look for are pretty basic ones; either you're a numerate guy or you're not.

 

I appreciate the input. But comment #1, while probably true for Ph.D. graduates overall, is hyperbole for graduates of top 10 programs--look at Stanford's placement record: http://politicalscience.stanford.edu/graduate-program/prospective-stude….

I also don't necessarily agree with comment #2. I got a 700 on the math portion of the SAT, which isn't amazing but made me competitive for any college in the country when combined with the rest of my app, and which would seem to imply that what's holding me back isn't an inherent lack of ability to calculate percentages but instead the fact that I haven't taken a math class since freshman year of college.

 

Nerdspeak...

A few more points to consider. There is lots of attrition in humanities phd programs. Even if you get a professorship, Do you really want to go work at university' of iowa law school? It's still not as easy as you think. My labmate in grad school had the cover of science (the top journal of science journals) and could not get a professorship. 700 on SAT math is a joke. Thats like sixth grade math. You're not competing with the same pool as college entrants. Youll now be competing with a far more selective pool. When I read a resume with less than a 760 GRE, I don't even bat an eye. When I read phd resumes, and I see political science, I don't know how to evaluate them so generally, i don't give them as a good marks as engineers.

You're idea of phd as a gateway would be a bad decision. If you want be a professorship, just go for that.

 

Just get into a masters program and hold out for a fellowship. Same thing as going into a PhD program and bailing once you get your masters. Oh, yeah, without burning bridges or pissing people off.

 

The peer review process sucks major balls. That is the major reason why I dropped out of mine. There are like 20 people in each field that determine whether your research is any good and if its worth being published.

Also, the opportunity cost is way too high. 4-6 years out the job force, making 20k, typically living in bumfuck no where, and then there is no guarantee of where you will be living afterwards...no thanks.

The teaching portion was fun though...but if you get a MS/MBA you can do adjunct classes after work or on weekends if it floats your boat.

 

Strange as it sounds, asst econ profs can make $100k. Depends on the school of course, but even a mid-level research u. starts around $90k+. Good point about the growth, though...there's relatively little upside potential in academia. Which is part of why I'm trying to get a handle on what the situation is for people who go the banking/finance route.

 

Surprisingly a PhD in most areas of business has an incredible starting salary (i'm not as familiar with econ PhDs though). I have a cousin that is looking at several PhD programs right now so I am somewhat familiar with placement and comp (and I have a couple family members that are profs). For example, at my SEC school, which doesn't boast any great accounting PhD program (i would put it at average) the 5 students who completed the program in the fall all were offered starting salaries of 175k or higher. For the finance program, all offers were 130k or higher. It didn't use to be this way, but the increase in business students combined with a decrease in business PhD apps has resulted in salaries double to triple of all other PhDs in academia (exception being law professors). But comp is limited unless you decide to write a textbook or do some consulting on the side.

I commonly think about a PhD in finance or B-strat because of the high starting salary and leisure lifestyle. But ultimately I don't know if I would want to be in school that much longer and I really would hate 80% of my time being dedicated to publishing bullshit research in order to "advance" in the profession. One of the traders at the HF i'm interning at started a PhD program in Econ but quit because he couldn't stand the hours of pointless research.

Quarter, this post isn't directed toward you, since I'm guessing none of this was news to you (i didn't want you to think I knew more about a career in academia than you). I just wanted to give a little more info on the academic side of finance for people that never thought about it.

 

I remember one of my accounting professors being mad at himself for not researching the topic "Do Numbers Influence People" first. He wanted to publish something so he wouldn't have to work too hard the rest of the year.

 

riemann, i agree not all research is bullshit. But the problem is that opposed to doing research on something you truly want to find the answer to, you're forced to just try to publish as much/often as possible. The pressure to publish in order to advance or get tenure corrupts a lot of the good intentions of research.

fp175, maybe an assistant prof is labeled differently at your school, but at mine an assistant prof is someone who has completed their PhD (whereas a PhD student teaching is just a GA). Anyone who has completed their PhD is pulling 100k at any business school (undergrad included). Econ can be a different story though because it's in the liberal arts college opposed to the business college at a lot of universities.

 

thanks, oldhat and fp, for the info. of course, anyone who knows more on this, i'd be happy to hear about it.

as for all the stuff on academic salaries...like I said, it varies by school. If you get stuck at some liberal arts teaching college, you'd make like 60 (econ). But if you're at a decent research school, salaries improve a lot. For econ specifically, if the department is attached to a b-school, you're likely to do much better pay-wise than if it's in the liberal arts college. But most economists have some sort of complex about teaching MBAs, and they hate it passionately. I guess they can't handle the stress. MBAs tend to demand actual value-added teaching, much more so than undergrads.

 

fp175, I still unclear as to whether you mean econ PhD students or people who have completed their PhD?

Also, when I say business school I don't just mean MBA. I'm talking undergrad business as well. Anyone who completes a PhD in a business concentration (accounting, finance, b-stat, etc) can go to a state school with an undergrad business program and make over 125k straight out.

 
Sucker_for_Seers:
fp175, I still unclear as to whether you mean econ PhD students or people who have completed their PhD?

Also, when I say business school I don't just mean MBA. I'm talking undergrad business as well. Anyone who completes a PhD in a business concentration (accounting, finance, b-stat, etc) can go to a state school with an undergrad business program and make over 125k straight out.

Well obviously a professor is someone who has completed their PhD already. I went to a university that doesn't have undergrad business school so no one teaching anything econ related at the assistant prof level was making that kind of money.

If you have a PhD and want to teach at some state business school, I'm sure a few years working in a bank would look good on the CV anyway.

 

Yea, teaching econ for no money would suck. I think if I decided to teach I would want real world experience first. Mainly because I can't stand having business professors who try teaching me how business works, but they have never worked outside of academia.

 

If you are a quant and have PHD then trade. Don't get pigeoned holed into model vetting for some desk where the traders still control you. That is if you want to make some dough.

 

Given the flat nature of ER you could really apply whenever. But there are some good shops that probably have openings right now so if you're really gungho about ER, you might want to apply now. PM me if you want the specific roles.

 

With a PhD in bio-chemistry you would start up most likely as an associate and not an analyst. I dunno exactly what the path is in your case, but my two cents is that you would have a chance of breaking in anywhere with a phd in a relevant field.


Remember, you will always be a salesman, no matter how fancy your title is. - My ex girlfriend

 

I would apply for healthcare groups, especially the ones in SF. A lot of biotech, emerging bio stuff.

With your background, plus some basic finance knowledge and a good personality, you should have no problem breaking in.

 

What does "PhD forum" even mean? I'm going to try to guess what you might be looking for and say this:

If you're looking for admissions, go to collegeconfidential. If you're looking to speak with a PhD in a field you wish to pursue, honestly just search for a forum of said field and there are probably PhDs there (I know this is true for natural sciences and computing, not sure about anything else). If you're thinking about a finance or finance-related PhD, quantnet or wilmott are good sources.

 

No offense, but why are you asking this here? At 42 you have much more in the way of life and work experience than 99.99% of the monkeys on this website. If anything, sit down over coffee with your friends in ER, asset management, and such. They will probably be able to give you much better advice for your next step.

The last act is tragic, however happy all the rest of the play is; at the last a little earth is thrown upon our head, and that is the end for ever.
 

What are your experiences in research? Why haven't you worked before, and why have you decided to do it now?

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
 

Thanks for the reply. Experience in research is various RA jobs with various professors (applied econ/econ theory etc.) I haven't worked before as I used my summers to gain RA experience as well as take extra courses in order to strengthen my phd application (seems to have worked out for that purpose).

This is my first year doing research on theoretical topics since my program is heavily oriented towards theory. I ultimately chose this program because I really enjoyed my classes in theory as an undergrad, though I had not yet been introduced to research in theory (my undergrad didn't really have any theory people in the econ dept.) I've found the research to not only be boring, but virtually inconsequential as well (no one reads these papers...). I was pretty turned off by the notion that people are OK with putting effort into things that no one reads. When I was an undergrad, I enjoyed working with people and in teams (excelled in a leadership role for a fairly relevant extracurricular focusing on these things), which ultimately, isn't really a possibility with a career in theoretical research.

 

You can get away with leaving your GPA off your resume, but you will have to type it in directly on the online application. At least, I had to for every job I applied to. You're not going to be able to hide it.

My overall grad school GPA was 3.0 and I got interviews at all 3 MBB firms. There's more to the application than just GPA. Having said that, with a master's degree only you'll be competing against undergrads, not MBA/PhD/MD/JD candidates, and GPA is very important to stand out among that crowd.

 

I'd add MIT and LSE on that list... even if I don't know how difficult is to get in, I doubt it will be more difficult than getting into Harvard.

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 

Why would anyone get a phD in finance? 155 is a little low, and 164, while good, is nothing special for asians (asian myself) think you have a good shot at the bottom 4, small chance at the next 2, and no chance at harvard do you go to swarthmore? cause that could be a game changer. maybe haverford? but i don't think either of those schools have finance tracks

seriously, why a phD in finance?

I'm not concerned with the very poor -Mitt Romney
 

Think about adding Columbia University, University of Oxford, and UPen.

"It's very easy to have too many goals and be overwhelmed by them... The trick is to find the one thing you can focus on that represents every other single thing you want in life." -- @"Edmundo Braverman"
 
Mitt Romney:

Why would anyone get a phD in finance?
155 is a little low, and 164, while good, is nothing special for asians (asian myself)
think you have a good shot at the bottom 4, small chance at the next 2, and no chance at harvard
do you go to swarthmore? cause that could be a game changer. maybe haverford?
but i don't think either of those schools have finance tracks

seriously, why a phD in finance?

Maybe he just wants to teach?

I'm grateful that I have two middle fingers, I only wish I had more.
 

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f....fuck,man...

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