Thunderbird MBA (International Business)

Thunderbird is ranked number one in the world for their MBA in International Business.

I want to get into banking, but I don't want New York. I'd rather go to Tokyo or London, maybe Hong Kong or Moscow.

Thunderbird seems to be the right choice, yeah?

 

Sure, Thunderbird is #1 for international business, but my perception is that Thunderbird distinguishes itself most for its marketing program. I've had two friends do their MBAs at Thunderbird. One placed into a product management role at L'Oreal in NY, the other headed into management consulting.

I'm not familiar with how folks place with regard to banking specifically. However, all schools publish placement stats. You should look into Thunderbird's stats over the last 2-3 years to see if international IB recruiting is solid there and if so which firms do the most recruiting etc.

 

don't do it.

These specialty rankings are garbage.

Overall Business School reputation and recruiters are the most important things for MBA programs...particularly when it comes to Investment Banking.

Even if you didn't want to do banking, I wouldn't go to Thunderbird. Their admission standards are well below top programs.

Don't be suckered into "specialty rankings" unless they are matched by recruiters in that area.

Secondly, in terms of international business, there are so many great programs outside of the US that give you an actual international experience (and a better MBA overall) than simply reading about it in Arizona.

 

I dont agree with your comment.

1) With your 730 GMAT and without having any PROOF of your international interest, try applying to Thunderbird. I gurantee you that you will not get through. However, if you are from Afghanistan or from Morocco, where your first language is not even English and where structural reforms are yet to take, and if you score 630-650, Thunderbird will take you with "Welcome" as you bring in International experience. The school wants you to get connected with other classmate, who can know which deals are good in those untapped markets.

2) Thunderbird has 3 campuses - 1. AZ, USA 2. Mexico 3. Czech Republic - They moved from Geneva. So, its not only AZ. Plus it has 12 big Business Research center in almost 12 different coutries.

Find more details about a small research center of Thuderbird in Russia --> http://www.cbsd.ru

They have many more, even bigger than this, in many other countries. Hope you can visualize the scale or scope of the reach.

3) Your name sounds Russian. I know every year, only 2-3 students comes to Thunderbird from Russia - They are professionals, who have got FULL Scholarship from Russian Government, after passing and topping some competitive exams.

4) Go UBS (Investment Bank's) Career Website --> They have/had summer program for ONLY FEW B-SCHOOLs and their Career website will show the name of the school for a particular b-school. You will find about 12 b-school's name. Thunderbird is one of them.

5) http://www.kc-a.com/clients/tpec/index.html Please use the above link to see, how active the school is in Private Equity industry.

6) Find this top business school social group -- http://www.nybsc.org/members.htm http://www.dallasbusinessclub.org/

6) List can go on ....

One thing --> if you are not comfertable working internationally (even in Investment Banking - like having deal in Mexico or in Ghana or in India or in China), if you are not fond of international culture, you may want to look around !!

Also, be sure to know the things in details, before forwarding your conclusion!

  • Jennifer Morgan
 

No doubt, the ranking was taken back, as it didnt rank Boston and other b-school, however, they will be back, soon.

Just FYI - the old list -->

http://www.apostille.us/news/50_best_bschools_for_getting_hired_2007.sh…

02.25.2007 News / 50 BEST B-SCHOOLS FOR GETTING HIRED 2007 50 BEST B-SCHOOLS FOR GETTING HIRED 2007

Top MBA programs with the strongest career placement and reputation with recruiters.

Rank School Avg. post-MBA salary* ($) Avg. job offers/MBA grad

1 The Wharton School, University of Pennsylvania 100,000 3

2 Harvard Business School 97,000 N.A.

3 Sloan School of Management, Massachusetts Institute of Technology 97,500 3

4 Stanford University Graduate School of Business 104,917 N.A.

5 The Kellogg School of Management, Northwestern University 94,000 N.A.

6 Columbia Business School 96,372 N.A.

7 The University of Chicago Graduate School of Business 95,000 2

8 The Fuqua School of Business, Duke University 90,000 N.A.

9 Tuck School of Business, Dartmouth 100,000 3

10 Leonard N. Stern School of Business, New York University 90,707 2

11 Stephen M. Ross School of Business, University of Michigan 85,734 2

12 Haas School of Business, UC Berkeley 97,000 2

12 S.C. Johnson Graduate School of Management, Cornell University 89,290 3

12 Darden School of Business, University of Virginia 95,706 N.A.

12 Yale School of Management, Yale University 89,527 2

16 McDonough School of Business, Georgetown University 87,816 2

17 Anderson School of Management, UCLA 89,545 2

17 Thunderbird School of Global Management 73,841 2

19 McCombs School of Business, Univ. of Texas at Austin 90,000 1

20 Tepper School of Business, Carnegie Mellon University 87,455 1


Global Recruiters who welcomed and Ranked Thunderbird in Wall Steet Journal -->

http://www.careerjournal.com/reports/bschool/20050921-table-internation…

This ranking includes European, North American and Central American schools that have a global pool of recruiters. It is based on how recruiters rated each school on 20 different attributes, their future plans to recruit students from the school, and the number of countries from which it draws recruiters. To be eligible for this ranking, a school needed respondents from at least four countries. 2005 Rank 2004 Rank University (Business School) 1 1 IMD 2 3 ESADE Business School 3 -- Carnegie Mellon University 4 -- Instituto Panamericano de Alta Direccion de Empresa 5 2 University of London (London Business School) 6 -- University of Western Ontario (Ivey) 7 8 Thunderbird 8 5 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan) 9 12 INSEAD 10 -- INCAE 11 4 HEC School of Management, Paris 12 20 Instituto de Empresa 13 13 Columbia University 14 15 Erasmus University (Rotterdam) 15 14 York University (Schulich) 16 11 University of Chicago 17 16 Harvard University 18 10 Stanford University 19 18 University of Navarra (IESE) 20 -- Bocconi University

Source: "The Wall Street Journal Guide to The Top Business Schools 2006" (2005, Random House Reference).


  • Jennifer Morgan
 

Thunderbird is also hosting a Global Private Equity conference at the end of this month. Obviously the school is involved with PE, and obviously the networking at these kinds of things, at the MBA level, would be pretty tight.

 
Best Response

A) but it is NOT a mainstay banking school. It's not impossible to get into banking from there, but if banking is what you want to do, then T-bird is not your best option. PERIOD.

I have no idea about PE, so maybe they are good at that.

B) These recruiter rankings are even more garbage than some of these specialty rankings:

  1. The WSJ recruiter rankings are so volatile from year to year, it's ridiculous. They don't mean anything. Half of the real top schools don't even participate. You really believe that ESADE, Western Ontario, and some Mexican school are better than Harvard and Columbia? Get off the crack.

  2. I've never even heard of that "Best schools for getting hired ranking." But to take something from that list, look at Thunderbird's average salary compared to all the others. It is 12K less than the NEXT lowest school and 30K than the highest school. That alone would make me change my mind.

  3. The point I was trying to make about doing your research about recruiting is exactly this. Looking at some BS rankings is EXACTLY WHAT NOT TO DO. It's too subjective. You need to find out, not only who "recruits" at the school, but how many people they hire every year. So if you see Goldman Sachs, UBS, Morgan Stanley, etc. each hiring 2-5 people a year, then it's a great school for banking. But if you just see some finance names on a bigger list, be VERY cautious. Many schools say certain companies "recruit" there, but that doesn't tell you how many there hire, or for what types of positions.

The takeaway from this is GET DETAILS. The schools themselves will try to make themselves look better than they really are.

C) This campuses thing you bring up is a bunch of garbage. What do you spend one month at each campus? No way. Just by having some research outpost doesn't mean you have "global reach" Every school has exchange opportunities now, it's not a competitive advantage at all.

If you're an American and want an International MBA, go to a top foreign school (INSEAD, LBS, IESE, CEIBS, IMD, whatever).

If you are not American and want to come to the US, go to the best US school you can get into.

"International" is not something you really gain from classes. A degree, a piece of paper, doesn't make you "international." It's IMMERSION in a different culture. So go do it, don't read about it.

D) MBA programs that have to give away a lot of scholarships usually do so because it's the only way they can get students. The top schools don't have to give away scholarships, because people realize they are getting what they pay for. (Before you say it, I know that there are different scholarship programs at even HBS for people from poor countries, but much fewer and less money than the 2nd and 3rd tier schools, like Thuderbird).

E) Jennifer, do you work for the Thunderbird admissions department by chance? Because all of the garbage you are posting up here is exactly the kind of fluff that 2nd and 3rd tier MBA programs use to to try and make themselves look good to top students.

You quote random rankings, one-off examples (UBS), irrelevant info about campuses & business social groups (really, WTF?), and ignore the reality of the existing MBA hierarchy and what it means for students' career prospects. You completely neglected to highlight the SUPER LOW salary at Thunderbird. An unsuspecting MBA applicant might actually hear this and believe this is the best school for them.

F) I'm not saying it's fair, but the MBA hierarchy is what it is.

I don't really think that Harvard kids are necessarily smarter or more competent than Thunderbird kids, but guess what most companies do. End of discussion. Getting that degree from Harvard or Wharton is something that will help you your entire career.

There are many great schools out there. For some people, T-bird may be the best school they can get into and that's GREAT! Enjoy it and make the most out of it.

There are probably some types of jobs where T-bird is particularly good at placing people. For those types of jobs, great! Go to T-bird.

But do not turn down a better school without knowing the FULL TRUTH and FACTS about how the game is played. Don't turn down a better school because of the random BS Jennifer Morgan posts.

Get DATA and talk to unbiased people in the industry you want to work in.

P.S. I did not go to an Ivy or comparable school. Everything I am posting is a warning of what I have seen with my own experience.

 

Here is the link to Thunderbird's Employment Report last year.

http://www.thunderbird.edu/wwwfiles/pdf/2006EmpReport.pdf

Ignore all the fluff about Ethics and Rankings and Diversity and LOOK at the NUMBERS!

Look at the companies where Thunderbird students got hired.

The top employers are all corporate/manufacturing type companies. They do list Citi, Lehman, UBS, Merrill, HSBC, and BofA, but who knows whether those are investment banking jobs or some bullshit operations jobs or how many jobs people got.

Critically go through this report. And you will know all you need to know. If you really want to see a difference, go download Wharton, LBS, Columbia's report and compare them to this.

Don't take my long winded response above, see for yourself.

 

Ohh. So, now you changed your response from NOT A GOOD SCHOOL to NOT FOR BANKING. Also, now you changed gears for the school comparision. Thanks for the clarification. Keep going!

I really liked your comment when you shared that -- for PE T-bird might be doing good, but its not for banking!! :)).

Also, thanks for the clarification that you didnt go to any Ivy and its just from your personal experience.

Also, liked when you said these B-school social groups are WTF. Did even you finish your MBA? Grow up brother, if Thunderbird would have some mediocare B-school, it will not be allowed to be in those social groups. At MBA level and even after MBA, this kind of B-school social gathering is good - both for, business and personal networking.

I personally work for Maxim (IBD) and a T-bird, so you can assume more than what you will get from an admission officer.

About LOW SALARY --> It seems that you dont have idea about salary standards in other countries. I dont know if there is any published statastics about how many people go international to work in other country from Thunderbird, but I know the number is high. Look at this --> In Eastern Europe, in China, In Singapore and In India, the salary standards are lower (if you compare $ to $) but at par, when you compare the standard of living of the country. I know few Indian people going back to home country to work for Morgan Stanley (India) at about $45000 per year in India and THAT is top tier salary, back in India. Same with one of my classmate, who got with Lehman in Japan. But, your "personal economics" says Ignore rest, look at the NUMBERs.:)) Cannt help here.

In an analogy to your SUPER LOW SALARY comment --> In some news, reportedly, BlackStone in India had paid $136K (all inclusive) to one of its executive they hired from India and for India, only, so now will you tell me that BlackStone is paying SUPER LOW compared to KKR in US, who pays in range of $250K-$350K to its executive? Come on, give me a break !

About Scholarship --> I dont have the numbers, but I know that the school was quite behind in terms of offering scholarships, compared to other top-schools so they were in fact, trying hard to arrange more funds for the scholarships. I dont know, where you got the notion that top school dont have more scholarships. Its in fact, other way round.

About International Campuses --> Its not 1 month issue --- You can finish your MBA there if you want. Go to all Top School website, again, most of them do have campuses abroad. Go to other mediocare school, you will find few with that kind of span and scope. Global reach does matter for top b-school.

I-Banking jobs and the numbers -- School aims to place all where they want to go and in whatever field they choose. People, some of them, who worked in I-banking back in their country, wanted to opt for to Green Energy companies, as they foresee good growth and less hectic work-style. Well, that was their cultural perspective. They did accept low salary to work for those companies. We couldnt force them.

Still, there are people who are focused and want to go for I-Bank, they are getting it from Thunderbird, at par with their counter-parts from other b-schools. AIG Global Investment Division, Lehman, Morgan Stanley, UBS, Barclays, Duff & Phelps, ML, and many more biggies do come for IBD position. To support your comments, I think, the no. of position each companies offers, might be lower compared to other top school such as Wharton, so it might become competitive to opt when there are only 2 position from a bank versus about 5 candidates, but they are there.

About Ranking --> Well, I know few rankings like Business Week, WSJ, US NEWS, Fortune, Forbes etc. Well, I wonder if your comment had good weight why every ranking put the school at better place. Please dont "SHOW" that all rankings are not real. My purpose to show the ranking was not to say that Harvard or Columbia is at 17 in that list and that Western Ontario (Ivey) is at upper rank. Well, my point was all 20 schools are good at their recruiting efforts. We all know Harvard tops with its legacy. However, that was the view from Global Recruiter pool, and they do like those 20 schools, regardless of their ranking in that 20 list.

Where you could be right --> I do agree to some extent that having Harvard, Wharton, LBS on ur resume will help as they do carry comparatively better brand equity. In that case, I would like to put few things --> Thunderbird is founded in 1946, its just 60 years old school, compared to other Top and Old b-school. Plus, it ONLY has Business Education and ONLY Graudate Level, unlike, other Top School, which are more like Big Universities with all the different courses and at all level, that expands their branding portfolio and helps to some extent. Every spring trimester, we have about 20 students coming from HEC PARIS on exchange program. They were sharing that they got placed in this exchange program on highly selective basis. I wonder, why HEC (old and branded b-school in Europe) would do that for a school with just 60 years of history.

Again, if you dont have the international interest, please dont try for T-bird.

 

I recently graduated and had no direct work experience in Private Equity, but, I graduated with the job with AIG-Global Investment Group, majorally because of my international (emerging market) work-experience and the school name.

I am an Associate with AIG. I like the company and there are lot of opportunities to grow. Thunderbird diverse network is the most valuable asset, and proves the best in the industry.

Jennifer - calm down !

 

Lot more to know about Thunderbird !

It is a good school for sure and dont need such a big explaination !!

However, I think, for banking the best bet is University Chicago. They have good research on some of the best financial instruments and plus, no. of jobs per company, as Jennifer said, will be more so your chances becomes bright.

At Thunderbird, I think, you really need to struggle or work hard towards your grade and towards your interview to get the banking jobs.

 

Guys,

You all are making hell out of it. Do you think, even top MBA school will ensure you "THE JOB" if you dont have "related" work-experience?

At Wharton, with no previous work-experience, people had to struggle to get into Private Equity or investment banking jobs !

Jennifer - your comments makes sense, though it was too much detailed !! But, if more no. of I-Banking jobs comes to particular campus then it increases the hiring chances in manifolds. If some international who dont know about US Equity Market, well enough or never had that kind of work-experience before, its kind of tough for him to to get, even from Wharton, so if the no. of positions are less, do you think, that person can get the job, easily. I seriously doubt !!

No doubt, we all know that Thunderbird is a reputed B-school Brand and has a good founding history. But, in US, majority of I-banking jobs goes to Chicago, Wharton, Columbia and that too for the person with good work-experience only.

Alexey -- You said, IGNORE ETHICS and look at the NUMBERs ?? Beware guys, this kind of person could be next Enron Gigg !! Also, I dont think, you have proper sense about many of the MBA networking events. Do you also mean that all the school listed in those social events (first of all, its not social group - its business networking group) did just for fun? Now, dont even dare to say that Wharton is there just for Fun. From which college you did your MBA or still applying?? You said, there is no value of international experience ???

Well, then you are far behind than where the world is going !! FYI, most of the major Investment Bank are / had moved their Equity Research work to low-cost countries, and their next target is Deal Making. This was to maintain profitability while still expanding through financial leverage.

Its not that international jobs doesnt come to other top colleges, but top MBA pools consist mostly of US citizens and they are reluntant to move to abroad and even many of the international students who come to top MBA school wants to stay here in US, so they dont opt for those international jobs.

The post started with comment - if it is a good college for I-banking job abroad -- yes, in that case, Jennifer might be right, as companies do place greater importance on so called "regional experience". But, if you are planning for US, head for Chicago-GSB, Wharton or Columbia.

Cheers !! - Mike

 

I will address specific points below, but first an OVERVIEW of TRENDS in INTERNATIONAL MBAs (which is the main point I was trying to make from the beginning anyway):

There was time 20-30 years ago, when almost no MBA was focusing on international business. There were only a handful on MBA outside of the United States. However, there were 2 schools in the US that were very trailblazing and unique, and differentiated themselves by focusing on international business: Thunderbird and U. of South Carolina.

At that time 20-30 years, these were the only schools in the US where you could spend time abroad, foreign language was incorporated into the program, a lot of foreign students, etc. That legacy is why in the US News Rankings (more on them below) Thunderbird and South Carolina are always tops in International Business. They were truly ahead of their time BACK THEN.

But the rest of the domestic MBAs and the world have caught up. Thunderbird (and S. Carolina as well) are NO LONGER UNIQUE. So what do they do? They can’t compete overall with the top US schools. They can’t compete overall with the top European schools. And they are getting passed by Chinese schools. So Thunderbird tries to hang on to its legacy (which is less relevant every day in a globalized world) and say that they offer some competitive advantage. They don’t.

If you are American and want an international MBA, you can go overseas and get an actual international experience and build a network in the region you want to work in. Or if are totally set on a US program, go to top tier school and do an exchange, where you will get a globally known degree and some international exposure.

If you are not American, and interested in coming to the US or getting a US education and returning home, I can promise you that HBS, Wharton, Chicago, Stanford, and the like will serve you much better both in the US and abroad than Thunderbird.

And this what I mean when I call these international business rankings gimmicky. Overall MBA program reputation is what gets you paid and hired. And now because of the exchange opportunities, increased diversity at all schools, and the plethora of top MBAs outside the US, Thunderbird and South Carolina are becoming increasing irrelevant UNLESS they can raise their OVERALL standing as well, because recruiters can go to schools with higher GMATs and better work experience all over the world to get someone with an international profile.

SPECIFIC POINTS

A) This website is a banking website (ibankingoasis.com) so when characterizing schools on this board, how good of a banking school a school is, is the main thing that matters. Thunderbird is NOT A TARGET school. There are plenty of threads on this board that explain how much easier into banking from a target school.

B) Thunderbird is not a top tier school. It’s not horrible, but I wouldn’t go there. But there are probably some people who can’t get in anywhere better or who get hoodwinked by the “#1 in International Business” (which comes from the US News Rankings and they don’t even consider non-US programs.) It’s like saying Latoya Jackson is the most successful Jackson kid if we don’t include Michael and Janet.

C) I don’t care one bit about PE. Thunderbird might be the best school in the world for PE…I have no idea. I don’t want to have an idea. But again, it’s not a target for Bulge Brackets which is what most people are looking for here. Besides whenever the economy eventually crashes, the debt’s gonna dry up, all the super leveraged companies won’t be able to pay their loans back, and half these firms are gonna disappear.

D) Yeah. Those business school social groups are critical. Who cares? There may be some networking benefit to these things, but the point is that T-bird is not the only school in these groups. Thus, it is not a deciding factor for why T-bird over say Wharton. If you get into Wharton, you can still be in these social networks AND have a better MBA. Your logic is faulty.

E) Thunderbird’s salary. Again I refer you the Thunderbird’s Career Placement brochure. http://www.thunderbird.edu/wwwfiles/pdf/2006EmpReport.pdf The brochure lists salary for each region and the number of people in each region. The majority (78%) stay in the US. And the average salary IN THE US is a MERE $76K. Massively below any top school.

F) A couple of notes on rankings. While it is pointless to argue about who is number 1 vs. who is number 12, let’s consider the FT rankings and the Business Week rankings. FT ranks T-bird 57th in the world. But what is interesting is that looking at International Criteria there are 39 schools who have a higher percentage of international students!!!! T-bird does not even have the highest percentage of internationals among US schools!!! (How international is that?) T-bird is not even in the top 30 (of US schools only) in the Business Week rankings either.

G) Ms. Morgan confirms my own point in the overview by saying that all top schools have campuses abroad. If that’s the case, why do I need to go to Thunderbird?

H) Funny how she is talking about having an exchange with some French School HEC Paris. Her numbers are completely off and proves how far she will go to trick you. That school HEC has less than 200 full-time students, yet she claims 20 of them go to T-bird each semester. You really believe 10% of the whole school goes on exchange to one other school? Also HEC offers exchanges to other global MBA powerhouses such as the University of Witwatersrand, Hitotsubashi, IPADE, and UC Davis. Plus, HEC Paris itself is AT BEST a 2nd tier European school. Trying to associate her crap school with another crap school is just hilarious.

I) To address Mike_CFA_MBA’s assertion that I am the next Enron guy because I said ignore ethics and look at numbers. He missed my point. I have some experience in the Marketing of MBA programs The key difference between really good programs and marginal ones is how they market themselves. Good schools hit you with the statistics because THEIR STATS are IMPRESSIVE. Marginal Schools hit you with WORDS and FLUFF, for example “We teach ETHICS at Thunderbird.” No shit!!! Everybody does. Another example is “Ranked #1 in international business.” They have to tell you because nobody’s heard of it. My point is ignore the fluff, whether they are talking about ethics or rankings or diversity and INSTEAD see average salaries, number of hires at each firm etc.

J) Finally, I’m not in the habit of justifying myself on this message board, but I will tell you that I am American. I speak 3 languages (and actually learned them as an adult, not from parents or anything like that). I got an MBA in Europe (after looking at the likes of Thunderbird in the US). I work in London at BB. I’ve lived in 6 countries. You can believe my analysis above or not, but on this topic, I am well versed.

K) OH!! I can’t forget. Jennifer, I’m happy you got a job that you like. I bet it must be pretty cool to work at Maxim. I read Maxim every month. Do you model for them? If so, I would totally love to meet you. I mean, T-bird MBA and a Maxim model. Beauty and Brains.

 

I dont know why Alexey is getting so excited (or seems - rather getting frustrated). No doubt, Harvard, Wharton, Chicago will lead the banking jobs, however, Thunderbird is certainly a good school with the good reputation in the industry.

All the Banking companies, its CMC is listing have Banking jobs only, not operational one. I know one of my friend's friend (a T-bird) who is currenly working for Lehman in NYC at a senior position in M&A.

The UBS job, what Jenni was talking about, seems also true. I just checked the UBS career's website, there are very only few B-schools listed for those summer positions.


Title Investment Banking Summer Associate MBA (Thunderbird)

Functional Area Investment Banking Department Location United States - New York City New York (Home Office) Business Group Investment Bank About UBS UBS is the world's largest wealth manager, a top tier investment bank, a leading global asset manager and the market leader in Swiss retail and commercial banking.

Description Summer Associates who join UBS Investment Bank are provided with a broad based investment-banking experience. After a preparatory orientation program, Summer Associates are offered maximum exposure to and interaction with the complete range of the firm’s services, resources and personnel. Upon joining the firm, Summer Associates are asked to assume an integral role in the execution of transactions ranging from advisory work in mergers and acquisitions to debt and equity offerings, both domestically and Cross Border.

UBS Investment Bank offers the unique opportunity of working in a collegial and supportive environment. The Investment Banking Department’s culture encourages and offers early recognition for achievement. Your Training Program The Summer Associate Program lasts 10 weeks. The program is targeted to students in their 1st year of an advanced program. In addition to the experience and education acquired on the job, interns have the opportunity to participate in a weekly speaker’s series covering areas of the bank, educational seminars, and various social and networking events. Requirements UBS Investment Bank seeks candidates for the Summer Associate position who have demonstrated outstanding academic and extracurricular achievement, possess strong analytical, quantitative and interpersonal skills and are enthusiastic about and committed to the investment banking industry. Candidates must have a 4 year bachelor’s degree or an international equivalent. Candidates must be enrolled in a professional graduate degree program prior to the commencement of the summer associate training program. MBA students and 3+ years experience in a professional services firm is preferred. Next Steps Interested candidates should submit their resumes to career services. If your school does not collect resumes, please submit them as follows: www.ubs.com/graduates Application Deadline 31-Dec-2006 It starts with you If you would like to work for a global organization where individual contribution counts and where your ambitions and abilities can make a difference, please apply for this position. It starts with you. Disclaimer / Policy Statements UBS is an equal opportunity employer committed to diversity in the workplace.


I was googling about the school and found that the school recently received $60 million gift from one its 1982 alumni. Any person dont give such a huge amount for any " crap " school.

For sure, you will find more number of jobs per company in Top 10 schools, however, the later part are filled with schools such as Thunderbird, Boston Uni. etc. They surely come under Top 30 b-schools.

Alexey, your response, in your starting posts, was looking more reasonable and sensible, however, you are now taking it too long and too off-track. The point earlier was, if the person wants to work for an international I-bank, will Thunderbird be a good bet? Answer is Yes! Though people will have more no. of options if they will opt for Wharton, Harvard, but it certainly not a bad decision to put your second choice to Thunderbird, if you dont get into Harvard, Wharton, Columbia, Chicago or Ross.

This group is for information sharing, not for abusing someone - Alexey went real cheap at the end. You are loosing the respect on the thread!

Jeeni, you should have kept mum earlier. Your information was too detailed to excite the discussion threads here!

Chill down, as Mike said there is no substitute of work-experience! Work 3-4 years in any industry, you will get the proper answer.

  • PK
 

Please dont take your frustration by asking me about " modeling, beauty and etc. ". Its okay.

You really dont have idea about what international business course/school is all about. Well, though it is irrelevant to our topic of discussion, but for your better understanding, international business specialization is a lot more than just having no. of international students on campus. So, please dont get confused that these schools which are branding themselves as International Business specialized, dont offer anything unique. They surely have unique to offer. You can research when you get chance, because if I will explain, this blog will go on, and people doesn't seem to like that.

Trust me, the school has good placements and good things to offer. Here, Dan Quail, former Vice President of USA used to teach International Political Economy (your daily early morning Financial Times analysis) for many years. One of school's SCM professor used to recommend Greenspan on National Supply & Demand for his economic analysis.

FT itself had ranked the school at Top in International Business and in Executive education. Though in overall due to GMAT and due to salary, the school takes a little blow. How ever I did explain you the issues with GMAT and with Salary.

The HEC Paris example was just to mention that the school is surely regarded. HEC Paris is one of the renowned schools in Europe. You can confirm from many resources. Its surely not a CRAP school. And yes, it was 20 students every SPRING trimester.

You lived in many countries then you should better understand the importance of international business education. I hope you have lived in some emerging market, as well. There are lots of things which can help you if you have strong international business network. For sure, Top school such as Wharton, Harvard must be having good network abroad, however, the ground where, these international schools differ is the level of span and depth, they have in those issues. It was surely inspiring for me, to have some business-connections in a country, whose name I may not have heard. Well, though it doesnt relate to our topic of discussion, however, I was trying to say, that you need to like international business issues/opportunities to get more from these kind of schools.

Thunderbird has pretty strong and meaningful connections with many international organization such as World Bank, IMF etc. In my class, the school had invited Economic Advisor of India, whose last career stand on his job is Governor of India. I have heard that one senior Chinese government official had also took studies here.

In I-banking also, though it may not have more no. of jobs per company, as compared to Top 5 Target schools, however, Thunderbird has good standing in the industry, as well. Current Director of ABN AMRO I-Bank, Chief Investment Officer of AIG Russia, Director - Investor Relation-IBD, Lehman Brothers and many students at senior level of those banks. The UBS example, I gave you is just the one which was specifically published with individual school name, that is why I mentioned. Other companies dont mention by school name, but they do have I-banking jobs "targeted" for Thunderbird. Many of international students don't come with the mind for working for I-bank, and the school cann't force them, however, they do get what they wanted. Tell me, how it will be possible, that the school has bettered itself in PE and not in I-banking. These professions normally go together. I personally didn't hear about any school with that kind of contrast.

It does teach Ethics and it is not just teaching some "goody goody" lessons. It goes till corporate ethical behaviour, commonly accepted rules and regulations etc. I have heard that recent CFA course had added Ethics lessons as a compulsory one.

Anyways, I think, I was little agressive in tone in my earlier comments. Apologies! But, guys trust me, if you have international interest and want to open up your opportunity portfolio internationally (even in i-banking sector), this school can help you.

Good Luck Alexey !

  • Jennifer Morgan
 

Oh good god... is this STILL going on?!?

Jennifer Morgan... is that in truth your real name? Why on earth would you sign off with your real name? I hope it's not!

Why are folks writing litany's... I've got a minute tops at random parts of the day to get distracted and troll thru the forum. Who has time to read exhaustive paragraphs? It's futile.

 
aadpepsi:
Oh good god... is this STILL going on?!?

Jennifer Morgan... is that in truth your real name? Why on earth would you sign off with your real name? I hope it's not!

Why are folks writing litany's... I've got a minute tops at random parts of the day to get distracted and troll thru the forum. Who has time to read exhaustive paragraphs? It's futile.

Wait!

You're not supposed to use your real name? Shit.

 
This thread is amusing. No disrespect to anyone from T-bird, but it is simply not a top-tier school, and these international rankings USNews produces mean zero in the real world. The same schools that give you the best opportunity to land top jobs in any industry are also the same schools that give you the best opportunities to work overseas. If you go to Wharton or <abbr title="Harvard Business School&#10;"><abbr title="Harvard Business School">HBS</abbr></abbr>, in particular, you have the ability to work anywhere in the world you want. The networks of these schools, both in the US and abroad, is far deeper and larger than Thunderbird. Please do not make the mistake of thinking T-bird is a good choice if you want to work overseas, because while it offers great opportunities for those who cannot get into top schools, it simply cannot compare to Wharton or <abbr title="Harvard Business School&#10;"><abbr title="Harvard Business School">HBS</abbr></abbr> on any measure whatsoever.
 
skins1:
This thread is amusing. No disrespect to anyone from T-bird, but it is simply not a top-tier school, and these international rankings USNews produces mean zero in the real world. The same schools that give you the best opportunity to land top jobs in any industry are also the same schools that give you the best opportunities to work overseas. If you go to Wharton or HBS, in particular, you have the ability to work anywhere in the world you want. The networks of these schools, both in the US and abroad, is far deeper and larger than Thunderbird. Please do not make the mistake of thinking T-bird is a good choice if you want to work overseas, because while it offers great opportunities for those who cannot get into top schools, it simply cannot compare to Wharton or HBS on any measure whatsoever.

Thank you!

 

[quote=fp175]I generally agree with Alexey, but HEC Paris is not a tier 2 European school. It's one of the best MBA programs in Europe, after LBS and Insead. And it's ranked #1 b-school in Europe in FT. It has an exchange with Stern.

http://rankings.ft.com/rankings/ebs[/quote]

Euromonkey above is right (as he usually is on this topic).

HEC for UNDERGRAD is unquestionably one of (if not THE) best business school in Europe.

The MBA is just not. I know what those rankings say. Ignore them.

HEC is very good at Marketing their program, but your major Investment Banks DO NOT, absolutely, DO NOT recruit there. A few MBA's find their way in, but it is nothing like going to LBS, INSEAD, or even IESE for that matter.

Here's something you might want to consider. Compared to the States, the MBA in in Europe is a relatively new concept. So the programs are newer, less connected, etc. than their US counterparts.

Here's why this matters. It may actually be true that HEC is the 5th best MBA in Europe (behind LBS, INSEAD, IESE, and IMD). But what is different in Europe from the US is that there are NOT AS MANY Target schools. i.e. there are maybe 10 target schools in the US, but there are NOT 10 target schools in Europe, there are 2 or 3 true targets.

This means that going to the 5th best school in Europe is not the same as going to the 5th best business school in the US. It's apples and oranges.

If you go to any of the top 10 US schools, you should be fine. Outside of the top 3-4 in Europe, you are playing with fire.

Exchanges don't mean that much. It can be a personally rewarding experience, but it is not a substitute or proxy for the original school's level. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, UC Davis and some random school in South Africa (and Thunderbird...hehe) also have exchanges with HEC. just a thought

 

LOL - fantastic thread!

I'm all the way with Alexey and Skins1 on this one, and not speaking out of my arse since I have IB and international experience+eduction!

fp175, HEC is a really good school (mainly for the master in management). I think Alexey calls HEC tier 2 when referring to MBA recruiting from IB. People shouldn't pay attention to the ranking link you give though. It is the FT ranking that makes the least sense by far. The position of other programs in the rankings is quite subjective, with incomplete samples and really bad conclusions. - Insead 10th??? (cannot be compared with most of the schools, which focus on pre-experience education; insead has none) - Bradford is 8th???? More like 15th or 20th in the UK alone - St Gallen 33rd???? More like up there with HEC (actually I could lis the whole ranking with ??? next to most business schools)

 

Optio illo sint quia nobis culpa. Vel eveniet totam fugit quia dolorum. Consequatur quo rem et provident iusto eos.

Consequatur eligendi similique rerum tempora. Rerum sunt dolore deleniti sed a ducimus. Dolorem laborum alias ut incidunt sit. Dolor non velit nihil.

Odit asperiores sit ut porro est ducimus ipsum soluta. Cum totam distinctio hic aut aliquam. Sunt ea impedit laudantium suscipit itaque. Et eaque tempore quia est omnis. Repellat tenetur officiis laboriosam sit.

 

Totam amet autem vel. Aut omnis occaecati aliquid. Illo sed occaecati numquam non optio deleniti voluptas. Quidem occaecati molestias tenetur sed. Illo deserunt totam accusamus incidunt illo ducimus veniam. Hic molestiae corporis culpa aut unde. Est harum odit deserunt.

Career Advancement Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Jefferies & Company 02 99.4%
  • Goldman Sachs 19 98.8%
  • Harris Williams & Co. (++) 98.3%
  • Lazard Freres 02 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 03 97.1%

Overall Employee Satisfaction

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Harris Williams & Co. 18 99.4%
  • JPMorgan Chase 10 98.8%
  • Lazard Freres 05 98.3%
  • Morgan Stanley 07 97.7%
  • William Blair 03 97.1%

Professional Growth Opportunities

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Lazard Freres 01 99.4%
  • Jefferies & Company 02 98.8%
  • Goldman Sachs 17 98.3%
  • Moelis & Company 07 97.7%
  • JPMorgan Chase 05 97.1%

Total Avg Compensation

March 2024 Investment Banking

  • Director/MD (5) $648
  • Vice President (19) $385
  • Associates (86) $261
  • 3rd+ Year Analyst (13) $181
  • Intern/Summer Associate (33) $170
  • 2nd Year Analyst (66) $168
  • 1st Year Analyst (202) $159
  • Intern/Summer Analyst (144) $101
notes
16 IB Interviews Notes

“... there’s no excuse to not take advantage of the resources out there available to you. Best value for your $ are the...”

Leaderboard

1
redever's picture
redever
99.2
2
BankonBanking's picture
BankonBanking
99.0
3
Betsy Massar's picture
Betsy Massar
99.0
4
Secyh62's picture
Secyh62
99.0
5
GameTheory's picture
GameTheory
98.9
6
dosk17's picture
dosk17
98.9
7
DrApeman's picture
DrApeman
98.9
8
CompBanker's picture
CompBanker
98.9
9
kanon's picture
kanon
98.9
10
numi's picture
numi
98.8
success
From 10 rejections to 1 dream investment banking internship

“... I believe it was the single biggest reason why I ended up with an offer...”