Transfering to semi-target/ prestigeous school
Hello I am a 4th year 3.5 average GPA student in a four year university that is not a target school. In high school I cared more about swimming and tennis rather than my SATs therefore didn’t do so well and ended up in George Mason. I have gotten interested in investment banking six month ago and have since read a couple of books a recruitment guide and online comminutes. I am able to bring my GPA up above 3.6 by the time I graduate(with an extra year), but what is the use, if my school has zero contacts with investment banks. Quite frankly most finance students don’t even know what investment banking is.
I am considering transferring to a semi-target / more prestigious school like NYU, Georgetown or Michigan Ross. But the problem is that it is Summer now and I have to wait until the next spring (march) to apply. I will be able to fill up my schedule with calculus and statistics courses and repeat a course which will make my GPA better. But the costs of transferring are so high, because I will have to finish two extra years at the other school. My parents will cover my tuition at my school, but surely won’t be able to at the new school. My question is, considering the high costs: staying at my school for an extra year taking some extra math/stats and staying away from major finance classes and then applying in the spring for fall admission, is it all worth it. I mean this is no overnight spur emotion of mine. I have thought about this for a while, but I simply see it as very difficult, almost impossible to get in with zero alum networking and zero recruitment at my school. And if I graduate I will have to cold call which I would probably do for a while, but give up if I have no luck. Choosing to transfer will probably cost me two and a half extra years and a whole bunch of loans, but I feel that if I get in and get a good offer I will pay them all back. It’s a cost of time and money mostly, but I think it will be worth it. What do you guys think is my best option?
4 yr = you should be graduating this year or next. Not worth it, get some got damn work experience and quit worrying about your non target uni BOO freakin WHO
Yeah it is easy for you to say, if you have some friends in the industry. I practically know nobody that is in investment banking. I know time will come when I have to graduate and even with A- average I will struggle to get in a boutique not knowing anybody, when kids from brand name schools will simply drop their resume and voila.
This is not just about a good name school, my school has zero contacts and its preparation is arguably iffy. I have an internship at an investment advisory firm where I will be doing a sector analysis, but that won't be enough. I want to make it big and work in M&A one day, but that won’t come from starting out low. So if you have something constructive to say please go ahead, but understand my point.
I understand its a bad time and money investment, but hey I am not in a hurry like most people. I want to study for big party of my life and if that is what it takes I'll do it no problem.
Have you thought about getting your foot in the door with a BB Middle Office division like Credit Risk? It might be a better route then leveraging up additional cost and time at a semi target. It should also give you some valuable networking opportunities with some IBD groups.
That sounds like a good idea, I am not as familiar with middle office or back office positions. I just want to be able to increase my chances as much as possible though. Taking the time to transfer is costly and will take time, but really what is the difference if I graduate when I'm 23 or when I'm 25. The only thing that I am afraid of is that I might spend all this time taking on extra math and stats to be perfectly qualified, but not get accepted, because I am applying as a senior. That really bums me, hearing that colleges look down upon being a 4th year student trying to transfer. Is this really valid? Any people had some luck with this?
That sounds like Mason alright.
Your extra classes are useless. Trying to transfer is likely not worth the cost. A good master's degree would sligthly improve your chances.
If I were you, I'd get a "normal" job first. It is very unlikely that you land an IBD gig in the current environment.
Some schools won't accept you after you have a certain number of credits even if you are willing to give up some. I would check the schools websites or contact an admissions officer to see if this is even possible.
I know somebody that left as a senior from a non-target and transferred to a semi-target. Not sure if that was the best option. I can give you some more info on what he did if you want it, just PM me.
Graduate George Mason -> working in investment management (something finance related that will allow you to build a list of contacts) -> Top MBA or Top Master's Program in Finance
Graduate George Mason -> Top Master's Program in Finance
Instead of transferring why dont you apply to a MAC (Master of Accounting Program) at a better school? North Carolina has one. Also you could consider Master of Finance.
Also, many schools have a sort of one-year business program (Duke Fuqua has one) however usually you have to be a liberal arts undergrad.
Transferring in your fourth year to do 2 more years of undergrad not a good idea...plus what sort of insane school would accept a fourth year transfer as an undergrad???
Is the picture you uploaded and your little avatar picture the same person...looks the same to me without sleeves...
side note, deal_mkr has it about right with this.."Transferring in your fourth year to do 2 more years of undergrad not a good idea...plus what sort of insane school would accept a fourth year transfer as an undergrad???"
With a 3.5 at George Mason, you have literally almost a zero percent chance of getting into NYU Stern or Georgetown (I don't know a lot about Michigan but I would assume your odds are similar). Stern accepts only about 9% of transfer applicants and those kids are going to have better GPAs and/or come from more prestigious schools. And, yes, these schools do look down on you coming in and having to do an extra year. I know a little about the process because I thought about doing the exact same thing at one point to make up for the lack of recruiting at my own school.
Instead of completely wasting a few weeks on these applications, you can send out a few hundred networking emails/cold calls in that time and get much better bang for your buck. You say you don't know anyone in banking and that George Mason has very few people in front office positions. I don't doubt either of those things, but you have to understand that networking is about forging new connections, i.e., reaching out to people you don't already know. You send an email introducing yourself and saying you have some questions about the industry, what it takes to break in, etc. You won't get a response from everybody but, given how relatively few GMU alumni there are on the Street, I would think that most would at least be willing to talk to you.
You also have a major misconception that target school kids "drop their resume and voila". The kids that are getting offers at targets usually have much better than a 3.5 and they're at a more challenging school than you (finance majors at Wharton presumably know a little more than "what banking is"... jeez). Unless you're Kravis' son you have to work your ass off to get a job in banking. Targets have more doors open to them but you need to be a quality applicant no matter what school you're coming from. Kids with 2.8s at Princeton don't have banks knocking down their doors. Trust me.
Also consider who you would be up against if you do transfer. At NYU you'll have 400 kids gunning for what ultimately amounts to maybe 130 spots in banking (I'm just figuring that a third of them get it--not exact, but probably not very far off, give or take). You won't even have an NYU GPA because you just transferred and basically all those kids will have 3 or 4 internships with boutiques, PE firms, and/or HFs. How do you expect to stand out in that pool of applicants?!
Even though it may sound like I'm trying to be a dick, I'm really not. It's just that I know how hard it is to break in from a school with no recruiting (no recruiting for a whole different set of reasons but no recruiting nonetheless), and you need to lose some of these illusions you have about getting into target schools and getting into the industry very fast. You have one year left. After that, you're not getting in as an analyst. So use this summer for an all-out networking assault.
Of course, it's totally possible to break in at the MBA level if you do well in some other job for a few years and get into a top B-school.
I'm current a student at NYU Stern and let me tell you this:
About 550 Sternies per batch and among them, about 400 are deadset on IBD.
However just because they are deadset on IBD, it does not mean that all the Sternies hold the mentality of that in WSO or even that in M&I. Many kids barely have relevant experience, many think UBS PWM is the best internship in the world (since it's at a BB it has to be the best right???) and MANY of the kids do NOT have the drive and hunger as kids in non-targets and such - they think that by attending Stern they will be set for life (which many of them actually do since they have wealthy parents to afford NYU's 60k tuition).
So out of the 400 who want IBD, only about 150 actually have legit resumes with real relevant experience (boutique IBD, HF, PE part-time internships), entering junior spring for SA recruiting.
It's funny to see how much of WSO is overestimating the competition in NYU Stern. Yes, if all the Sternies held the mentality of that in WSO once they set foot on campus then all hell would break loose and we would be skinning each other for networking opportunities. But if you actually attend the school, you'll see that it is not the case. For those who actually know what they are doing starting Freshmen year, Sternies have great, (i'd even say easy access) to FO roles. But the truth is the majority don't and hence is the reason why a large portion of kids at Stern still do end up in MO or even BO positions - simply because they were ignorant to begin with, and once they realized this, it was already too late.
MSF
Thanks for the advice jimbo_slice I'll look into a master in finance, but networking will be way more important. There are some GMU grads on wall street that just left this year so I'll just keep in touch with them. I just didn't think it would have to get down to cold calling and emailing, but I guess it could be fun if I actually get to visit NYC. And in the mean time I'll try to finish as high as I can in my school.
Somebody mentioned that I won't be able to compete with students at semi target schools even if I transfer which is probably true, but that doesn't mean its doesn't look better when networking with bankers. I applied to Georgetown and did not get in, I will visit and speak with the admissions counselor to find out what the reasons were and possibly convince her with my new 3.8 semester GPA. It would be my last shot, because I know prestige matters so much in the world of wall street and I am willing to pay time and money for it. If I am to take that route I will pay all my loans back when I am making bank.
George_Mason -
first paragraph - good, keep networking and trying. Maybe your career center has an alumni database or something you can leverage.
second paragraph - totally delusional. Im pretty sure Van Wilder is the only person in the world who spent 6 years UG. I really dont think any decent school is going to accept you simply on the basis that you have already completed four years!!! Borrowing money to finance this based on the assumption you are going to get a killer IB job in two years is idiotic
Its time to move on and apply to a grad program, Master of Accounting or Master of Finance. If you get into a decent school this will be a much better strategy then this current "prestige" obsession.
Who wants to be a UG when they are 24!?!?!?
Check out MSF HQ, it's a site run by one of the guys that posts on here regularly. If you are serious about investment banking, and MSF might be a good way to prop yourself up without first getting work experience (which you absolutely want if you're going to do an MBA).
If you think you might want to do an MBA, then the MSF isn't really worth it, and you need to go find a decent job stat.
Like others have mentioned start networking this summer with alumni and non alumni(most wont respond but all you need is one). And if you build a good relationship during the summer they can pass on your resume and all you need if that first interview. Good luck, i go 2 a non-target as well and have been networking now and have some leads. Also maybe you should take a class on Breaking into wallstreet and put that on your resume so atleast ppl know you a thing a two about modeling and valuation.
Move on and try to get some work experience elsewhere. Maybe with some solid work experience elsewhere, you can get into a decent MBA program and then try for banking from there. I think youde be delusional to think you actually have a chance now. I think its pretty rare to see non targets breaking in without years of prep and past work experience.
The only upside that students in the Tri-state (specifically NYU students) have is their proximity to people. If you're not an approachable person, you won't get very far anyway - regardless of how extensive your alumni network may be. Why don't you come out to NYC after you graduate, hustle and network hard to get a IB job? That's time better spent than taking useless classes to boost your GPA...
Yeah you are right networking will be the best way to get in. I am planning on getting an MBA at a top school, therefore i don't think Masters in Finance will be time well spent. But I guess where I go for an MBA will all depend on the type of experience I get. I have about a year and a half at my school. I will try to ace the rest of my finance classes and network and meet people as much as I can. Hopefully I will end up in a boutique or a smaller bank. I have a friend from my school who got into Duff and Phelps through their forecasting competition. I already went up to NYC and meet with a GS equity analyst who was somewhat helpful, but he's been out of reach. I'm gonna have to start calling and hopefully visit again.
Thanks for the help guys. It cleared up some things.
This is retarded. You didnt work hard and now you want to reap the benefits. Then you decide you want to transfer, as a senior, to semi-targets/targets and waste another 100k. Then during the interview one of my co-workers will ask why you transferred and it will be ridiculously obvious and you will look like a massive tool.
The ship has sailed. Do something else and stop finding quick fixes for your problems.
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