Two year analyst vs three year analyst program

Hi, so I am aware that some banks promote you to associate after three years (call it bank A) and others after two years (call this bank B). I was wondering whether we should take this into consideration when accepting/rejecting offers?

How does it work with compensation, would the third year analyst at bank A receive the same base and bonus opportunities as the newly promoted first year associate at bank B? Considering they have both been working fo the same amount of years

 

Consultant,

I completely disagree with you, with the exception of Wharton, top B-schools are trending toward earlier admittance of students for various reasons. B-schools want to grab top young talent before they are sucked into law school, med school, etc. An applicant with a strong academic background, high GMAT scores, interesting EC's, and solid essays is extremely competitive with only 3 years of work experience.

 
junkbondswap:
Consultant,

I completely disagree with you, with the exception of Wharton, top B-schools are trending toward earlier admittance of students for various reasons. B-schools want to grab top young talent before they are sucked into law school, med school, etc. An applicant with a strong academic background, high GMAT scores, interesting EC's, and solid essays is extremely competitive with only 3 years of work experience.

Sure you can do it after 2-3 years. But not banking. Just look at resume books if you don't believe me. The evidence is clear.

Simply put, there are way too many banking analysts. B-schools don't care that much.

On the other hand, I know people from MBB who get into top schools after 2-3 years (mostly 3). Not always HSW, but definitely Chicago, Columbia and the like.

 
consultant16180:
Sure you can do it after 2-3 years. But not banking. Just look at resume books if you don't believe me. The evidence is clear.

Simply put, there are way too many banking analysts. B-schools don't care that much.

umm im no expert...but that doesnt sound right to me...

 
h4zin:
consultant16180:
Sure you can do it after 2-3 years. But not banking. Just look at resume books if you don't believe me. The evidence is clear.

Simply put, there are way too many banking analysts. B-schools don't care that much.

umm im no expert...but that doesnt sound right to me...

What doesn't? Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But, for the most part, 2-3 years in banking is not enough for the very top schools.

I have the Tuck resume book in front of me and there are literally 0 people with just 2-3 years of investment banking.

 
consultant16180:
h4zin:
consultant16180:
Sure you can do it after 2-3 years. But not banking. Just look at resume books if you don't believe me. The evidence is clear.

Simply put, there are way too many banking analysts. B-schools don't care that much.

umm im no expert...but that doesnt sound right to me...

What doesn't? Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But, for the most part, 2-3 years in banking is not enough for the very top schools.

I have the Tuck resume book in front of me and there are literally 0 people with just 2-3 years of investment banking.

I think that is mostly a product of desire though. Very few BB analysts apply for business school right after their program. Those that I have seen have done well, and HBS is definitely not out of the picture (esp. for women).

The thing about business school is that you only get to go once. It is just much more valuable to go after having more experience because MBA recruiting will go a lot better. Which is why most analysts do not apply.

 
altfp:
consultant16180:
h4zin:
consultant16180:
Sure you can do it after 2-3 years. But not banking. Just look at resume books if you don't believe me. The evidence is clear.

Simply put, there are way too many banking analysts. B-schools don't care that much.

umm im no expert...but that doesnt sound right to me...

What doesn't? Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But, for the most part, 2-3 years in banking is not enough for the very top schools.

I have the Tuck resume book in front of me and there are literally 0 people with just 2-3 years of investment banking.

I think that is mostly a product of desire though. Very few BB analysts apply for business school right after their program. Those that I have seen have done well, and HBS is definitely not out of the picture (esp. for women).

The thing about business school is that you only get to go once. It is just much more valuable to go after having more experience because MBA recruiting will go a lot better. Which is why most analysts do not apply.

I don't believe that. It's a combination of lack of desire and not being able to get in.

I've talked to quite a few people at the B-school at my Ivy (yeah, narrow it down) and admissions folks from Wharton and Chicago. It may be easier for women, but B-schools are not keen on taking kids with 2-3 years analyst experience. It's not distinctive, you add very little to the classroom experience, and there are just too many analysts out there.

Very few apply because they know they won't get into the top programs and would rather work for a couple more years, build a strong app and then apply. Sure, getting more experience for post-MBA recruiting is also a factor, but difficulty of admissions/weak application is the bigger problem.

Like I said, there are exceptions here and there. Plus, look at the resume books or compositions of the classes at top B-schools. Everyone saw that Wharton resume book. There were basically 0 people with 2-3 years I-banking experience only.

I am sure there are some who get in, but you guys are making it sound much too easy and much more common than it is. And yes, females and minorities not included in my statements. Most of you don't fall into those groups anyways.

 
consultant16180:
altfp:
consultant16180:
h4zin:
consultant16180:
Sure you can do it after 2-3 years. But not banking. Just look at resume books if you don't believe me. The evidence is clear.

Simply put, there are way too many banking analysts. B-schools don't care that much.

umm im no expert...but that doesnt sound right to me...

What doesn't? Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But, for the most part, 2-3 years in banking is not enough for the very top schools.

I have the Tuck resume book in front of me and there are literally 0 people with just 2-3 years of investment banking.

I think that is mostly a product of desire though. Very few BB analysts apply for business school right after their program. Those that I have seen have done well, and HBS is definitely not out of the picture (esp. for women).

The thing about business school is that you only get to go once. It is just much more valuable to go after having more experience because MBA recruiting will go a lot better. Which is why most analysts do not apply.

I don't believe that. It's a combination of lack of desire and not being able to get in.

I've talked to quite a few people at the B-school at my Ivy (yeah, narrow it down) and admissions folks from Wharton and Chicago. It may be easier for women, but B-schools are not keen on taking kids with 2-3 years analyst experience. It's not distinctive, you add very little to the classroom experience, and there are just too many analysts out there.

Very few apply because they know they won't get into the top programs and would rather work for a couple more years, build a strong app and then apply. Sure, getting more experience for post-MBA recruiting is also a factor, but difficulty of admissions/weak application is the bigger problem.

Like I said, there are exceptions here and there. Plus, look at the resume books or compositions of the classes at top B-schools. Everyone saw that Wharton resume book. There were basically 0 people with 2-3 years I-banking experience only.

I am sure there are some who get in, but you guys are making it sound much too easy and much more common than it is. And yes, females and minorities not included in my statements. Most of you don't fall into those groups anyways.

Wharton is known for liking more mature candidates. HBS, on the other hand, actively recruits undergrads, so why would they have a problem with an analyst?

One thing I will give you though, is that I am making the assumption of an impressive undergrad background and strong GMAT scores. The farther you are from undergrad, the less it matters, so people who have a weaker academic record will definitely need to work more.

 
altfp:
consultant16180:
altfp:
consultant16180:
h4zin:
consultant16180:
Sure you can do it after 2-3 years. But not banking. Just look at resume books if you don't believe me. The evidence is clear.

Simply put, there are way too many banking analysts. B-schools don't care that much.

umm im no expert...but that doesnt sound right to me...

What doesn't? Yes, there are exceptions here and there. But, for the most part, 2-3 years in banking is not enough for the very top schools.

I have the Tuck resume book in front of me and there are literally 0 people with just 2-3 years of investment banking.

I think that is mostly a product of desire though. Very few BB analysts apply for business school right after their program. Those that I have seen have done well, and HBS is definitely not out of the picture (esp. for women).

The thing about business school is that you only get to go once. It is just much more valuable to go after having more experience because MBA recruiting will go a lot better. Which is why most analysts do not apply.

I don't believe that. It's a combination of lack of desire and not being able to get in.

I've talked to quite a few people at the B-school at my Ivy (yeah, narrow it down) and admissions folks from Wharton and Chicago. It may be easier for women, but B-schools are not keen on taking kids with 2-3 years analyst experience. It's not distinctive, you add very little to the classroom experience, and there are just too many analysts out there.

Very few apply because they know they won't get into the top programs and would rather work for a couple more years, build a strong app and then apply. Sure, getting more experience for post-MBA recruiting is also a factor, but difficulty of admissions/weak application is the bigger problem.

Like I said, there are exceptions here and there. Plus, look at the resume books or compositions of the classes at top B-schools. Everyone saw that Wharton resume book. There were basically 0 people with 2-3 years I-banking experience only.

I am sure there are some who get in, but you guys are making it sound much too easy and much more common than it is. And yes, females and minorities not included in my statements. Most of you don't fall into those groups anyways.

Wharton is known for liking more mature candidates. HBS, on the other hand, actively recruits undergrads, so why would they have a problem with an analyst?

One thing I will give you though, is that I am making the assumption of an impressive undergrad background and strong GMAT scores. The farther you are from undergrad, the less it matters, so people who have a weaker academic record will definitely need to work more.

Actually, quite a few B-schools take undergrads. They want these kids to "round out" their class -- have the whole gamut of experience. That said, these kids are seen as a "quota". HBS is looking for leadership, experience, and international work (composite of ~15 HBS alums I talked to at my firm). They don't have problems with analysts, they're just too many analysts gunning for the same spots. In fact, why would HBS take an analyst when there are a ****-ton of people with analyst + PE or other experience?

Undergrads are recruited for their fresh perspectives. There is a weaker case for taking someone with just an analyst experience.

 
consultant16180:
Actually, quite a few B-schools take undergrads. They want these kids to "round out" their class -- have the whole gamut of experience. That said, these kids are seen as a "quota". HBS is looking for leadership, experience, and international work (composite of ~15 HBS alums I talked to at my firm). They don't have problems with analysts, they're just too many analysts gunning for the same spots. In fact, why would HBS take an analyst when there are a ****-ton of people with analyst + PE or other experience?

Undergrads are recruited for their fresh perspectives. There is a weaker case for taking someone with just an analyst experience.

http://www.hbs.edu/mba/profiles/classprofile.html

Notice 7% of the class is from investment banking, and PE, etc. is a separate category, so this does not include 2 years ib than 2 years PE. That’s a fairly good chunk, especially considering that the vast majority of analysts do not apply.

 
Best Response
altfp:
consultant16180:
Actually, quite a few B-schools take undergrads. They want these kids to "round out" their class -- have the whole gamut of experience. That said, these kids are seen as a "quota". HBS is looking for leadership, experience, and international work (composite of ~15 HBS alums I talked to at my firm). They don't have problems with analysts, they're just too many analysts gunning for the same spots. In fact, why would HBS take an analyst when there are a ****-ton of people with analyst + PE or other experience?

Undergrads are recruited for their fresh perspectives. There is a weaker case for taking someone with just an analyst experience.

http://www.hbs.edu/mba/profiles/classprofile.html

Notice 7% of the class is from investment banking, and PE, etc. is a separate category, so this does not include 2 years ib than 2 years PE. That’s a fairly good chunk, especially considering that the vast majority of analysts do not apply.

Once again, you need to look at profiles and resumes. The 7% means a lot of different things. It doesn't mean they are all 2-3 year experience analysts.

MOST of them (based on resumes and talking to people) worked at a bank for 2-3 years, then did banking elsewhere at a boutique or another kind of financial company. Investment Banking is a catch-all for a few different job functions.

 
consultant16180:
Not a chance after 2 or 3 years.

Very, very, very few are able to do it.

You generally need 1 or 2 jobs after that to be a competitive applicant.

this is interesting, i always thought people either go to work on the buy-side or straight to top business schools after 2 years at a BB and come back as an associate

 

A guy I worked with graduated from a target undergrad in 3 years, did IB for 3 years and is now at Tuck (Dartmouth). He said he is the youngest person in his entering class. Below are some links to top schools that list the average age and work experience for the entering class. From what I have heard, if you are offered a third year position, it is good to take because 1) you will do associate work that you'll do if you decide on IB full-time after grad school and 2) you will have a lot more real work experience to talk about in interviews.

http://www.tuck.dartmouth.edu/recruiting/ http://www.businessschooladmission.com/harvard-business-school/ http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/mbaexecutive/admissions/choosing/compare.c…

https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
 

From what I have seen, B-school is definitely possible after two years (as well as three). The problem is that just because you will get admitted does not mean the companies that recruit at a b-school will view you the same way. I would not recommend it.

A third-year does not necessarily mean you did not find anything better. I can think of a few people who are staying because they don't know what they want to do afterwards. Others switch groups, often times because they did not get the modeling, product exposure, or deals in the group they were in. Some people go to London, which is probably the only third year that really improves a b-school app (b-schools love people who work internationally).

Point is, there are a lot of people who stay three years for a lot of different reasons. Not everyone falls into the two years --> PE --> B-School track.

 

but I knew a couple of people who did 3 years at a BB who went HBS or Wharton, didn't know anyone who did that and went to Stanford recently, although it has def happened in the past. I think it's definitely possible, especially at Wharton or Chicago (finance heavy schools), harder at HBS and Stanford where you are competing with the PE/Consulting/Industry/Self-Business types). On the whole, if you want HBS/Stanford, very tough unless you have a unique story, worked internationally. If you want to go to a school outside of those, then it's definitely possible

 

it is tougher, and most people have 4-6 years of experience, no question. But there it is fairly known the B-schools have been tyring to get more kids with 2-3 years of experience. I would actually be interested to see if all the kids in my analyst class stayed for their third year and then applied to B-school, rather than leave to PE/HF's, what the acceptance rate would be. I think it would be higher than you and most people expect, just b/c the perception is out there that BB analysts can't and don't compete with PE and consultant coutnerparts for B-school and most don't even try, but agree it would be no where near the acceptance rate of the latter.

 

Nowhere have I said that there aren't analysts with 2-3 years experience at Harvard. There are, but they are the vast minority. They are the rare exception, both in terms of admissions and class composition.

I am simply saying that getting into a top B-school after 2-3 years of BB Ibanking isn't easy and B-schools aren't falling over themselves to admit those analysts.

It can be done, but it's quite hard, even with the recent push to skew younger.

I don't see what the misunderstanding is here.

 
consultant16180:
On the other hand, I know people from MBB who get into top schools after 2-3 years (mostly 3). Not always HSW, but definitely Chicago, Columbia and the like.

But they are falling over themselves to admit people with a few years of experience from MBB? this sounds extremely biased, especially with your screen name of "consultant16180" lol.

 
h4zin:
consultant16180:
On the other hand, I know people from MBB who get into top schools after 2-3 years (mostly 3). Not always HSW, but definitely Chicago, Columbia and the like.

But they are falling over themselves to admit people with a few years of experience from MBB? this sounds extremely biased, especially with your screen name of "consultant16180" lol.

Yeah, it is biased, but those are the facts. M/B/B are both the biggest recruiters and the biggest feeders to top B-schools. Close to 10% of the incoming class at HBS is from McKinsey. The consulting firms have special, in-house programs that help you prepare for B-school apps. You get a ton of advice from others at the firm from the schools. Ask others at M/B/B or parse through resume books.

It used to be true, but now even consultants need more than 2-3 years of experience. Most do a 2 year stint and 2 years somewhere else.

Look at the industries of incoming students, consulting remains the most represented in most B-schools.

You don't have to believe me though. It's fine.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree alftp. I am basing my conclusions on stats and resume books. I might have an inflated perspective of the difficulty. Cheers.

 

I just think a lot less try than you think. I mean, I have no harsh statistics, but the 3 to 5 people I know that have tried to go to b-school after being an analyst all went to top programs. (Think the top 5-7, Stanford, Wharton, HBS, Kellogg, etc.)

The point is I only know three to five. I don't think there is the plethora of analysts in two to three year programs that are making it really competitive. Now if the job market turns, perhaps things will change, but now, I don’t think it is hard at all.

 

right, M/B/B place well, esp Mck, into B-school. I heard Mck used to have a 50%+ acceptance rate to HBS, don't think this is the case anymore, but could be wrong. It is also known, an analyst in i-banking does not have the same acceptance rate as consultants/PE, at least historically. I think the one big difference now is due to this perception/historical reality, many banking analysts (especially good ones who have the srong academic background, GMAT, unique stories, recs, etc) don't even contemplate B-school after their analyst stint, especially in the recent market (I know that I didn't). The ones who did from top shops or boutiques, who I realize make up a very small % of B-school classes, actually did pretty well. In the end, B-schools don't want a plethora of bankers, this is obvious, but they do want a % of bankers, and given the fact that most good analysts don't apply (for reasons discussed), you actually have a better chance than historically perceived. Anyway, I think this topic is done...

 

The acceptance rates to b-schools from MBB has been discussed in another thread. I think a realistic assesment (assuming 700+ GMAT and undergrad/GPA consistent with MBB recruiting) would put an MBB analyst in HWS with 80-90% rate that consultant16180 is talking about. The ones who don't I would assume are the bottom 10-20% of any class who nonetheless would still go to Columbia/Chicago/Haas/Sloan etc.

No idea about IB but I really think it may be more of an uphill battle to market your soft-skills as an analyst at a BB.

The acceptance rates to b-schools from MBB has been discussed in another thread. I think a realistic assesment (assuming 700+ GMAT and undergrad/GPA consistent with MBB recruiting) would put an MBB analyst in HWS with 80-90% rate that consultant16180 is talking about. The ones who don't I would assume are the bottom 10-20% of any class who nonetheless would still go to Columbia/Chicago/Haas/Sloan etc.

No idea about IB but I really think it may be more of an uphill battle to market your soft-skills as an analyst at a BB. One book I was reading about MBA admissions gives advice on how to do the best your first year in the program, and the author suggests that you identify the ex-consultant in your study group and just follow his lead. He may be a little biased as he's a former Bainie but regardless, consultants are viewed as ready-made business school students.

 

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