(UBS london FICC summer quant) VS. (RBS HK summer volatility trading)
Hi guys,
Two internship offers. I wanna do trading for sure.
The RBS offer is in Hongkong and is on volatility trading desk. UBS desk quant offer in London.
UBS allows immediate start after internship. So I could apply for 2012 FT trading analyst roles while remain employed. RBS case would have 1 year gap. That is the biggest upside of UBS London offer; since I can't start in trading until sep, 2012 anyway.
Can you please shed some light? So much appreciated.
let me get this straight, you would plan to do the UBS internship, take the grad offer and then recruit for other grad positions while on a grad position and then jump ship?
Sorry if I misunderstood but if this is the case then it is ridiculous borderline retarded.
hi derivastrading - i like your answer. most people talk like recruiters on campus: depends what you like, what's important to you in life... WTF...
i am leaning towards to the RBS offer... also thinking the UBS intern >> UBS full time & looking for a 2012 Full time trading.
The final question comes down to - which would add more value to my CV when applying foe 2012 full time trading positions?
Also how easy is it to network into trading during a quant internship? I know this is an impossible to answer question.
i dont have sufficient information to make the decision. pls pls advise.
Are you graduating this year or the next? If you are anyway graduating this year doesn't it make sense to take the UBS offer and continue working with them assuming they extend you an offer and are willing to let you start immediately. Apologies, I don't quite understand why you're trying to target 2012 FT unless if you are a penultimate year student right now or want to take a gap year.
graduating this year with a plan to do a MSc.
from derivstrading's comment: "let me get this straight, you would plan to do the UBS internship, take the grad offer and then recruit for other grad positions while on a grad position and then jump ship?
Sorry if I misunderstood but if this is the case then it is ridiculous borderline retarded."
what's your view?
thanks
x
in london, most banks take final year students for summer interns pool, i.e. Citi, JPM,etc. i know people spent 2 years in technology grad joining Citi global markets grad program.
i thought derivstrading was implying that "why take a quant offer when having a trading offer!!!"
pls advise...
london doesn't have Associate hiring in trading.. in general, exception being DB!!! MBA can do whatever they like on DB markets associate program coz it is rotational. most banks claim Associate program but only take Sales..i.e. Barcap and Citi.
anyway, the point is... to break into trading... "summer analyst >> full time analyst" is the normal entry route in london.
guys.. pls advise.
I would take the UBS offer. It makes a lot of sense. Surely, once you're in UBS, you can network your way into trading, no?
thanks Walkio - don't know exactly how the "quant >> trading" would work out. it may work out very quick...it may take several years or never... that's why i don't even mind having a gap year/doing a MSc to start a full time trading analyst as opposed to quant... pls correct me if i am deadly wrong
also someone pls interpret derivatrading's comment... i don't understand in the context of london..
?
How on earth were you hired onto a quant internship programme with an undergraduate degree? Something here does not add up.
i had a CS MSc and 1 year w/e at a top 3 software companies. with a plan to do a Masters in Finance/MFE... i applied for the UBS FICC quant summer associate program. true that all interviewers are PhD,etc... there were also cambridge math MSc on the same assessment day.
the reason why i am applying for 2011 summer analyst cause my original intention was to do a M.Fin.... seems quant internship like taking final year guys...then make them start immediately...unlike S&T internships...
anyway, i applied for UBS 2011 S&T summer analyst...but all positions were filled in last Nov...switched my application into quant summer internship... then went for AC, etc.... then got this desk quant offer. mostly pricing and coding work! have been coding for 6 years...really f...king fed up...unhumanistic work... getting insane now...
back to the original question...guys pls advise
^^ I know a math (undergrad) guy from imperial who was hired onto a quant desk at Citi
There is a difference between a quant trading desk and being an actual quant. The former is normally algo stuff for cash equities used for execution and prop trading, the latter is a full on modeling/coding monkey. The latter normally requires a PhD, I have never heard of a graduate becoming a quant, I just don't think it happens unless this guy is a complete mathematical genius and codes for fun.
hmmm RBS Hong Kong volatility trading? I wonder what they trade...The market is incomplete. Many underlying doesn't have options, you can't really replicate them neither. If you are making markets, then I would think you will have a hard time lay off those gamma.
If I were you, I go with London. You will have a bigger exposure to more products & different emerging markets. Just my two cents... But if you decide to roll with RBS HK volatility trading, please come back here and shed some light on what you guys exactly trade...
Exactly one of my concerns. However as I said, if I go for the hoongkong job, I would do a M.Fin at LSe, oxbrige, LBS anyway. So it is more about which internship adds more value when applying for 2012 full time grad role.
Thanks. More discussion pls
Have you already got offers from LSE, Oxbridge and LBS? As far as I know LBS needs minimum 2 years post-undergrad experience for its MFin program. I wouldn't recommend LSE MFin unless you want a class full of dunces who're desperate to get into finance.
I'm still a Masters student and yet to start FT (not until July this year) so take this for what its worth. Getting a S&T/IB FT in London is becoming increasingly tough as major banks have stopped recruiting/recruit very little outside their SA class (JPM, CS, MS). With the UBS internship if you're lucky enough to get an offer I'd say take it and stick with it for a bit and try to move within UBS a few months down the line. I have a friend who works with RBS and she told me people are very demoralized and the quality of people they're bringing in is going downhill simply because people don't want to work there anymore. This is for IB, don't know about S&T. Why do you want to do a masters unnecessarily? Its another £30k down the drain and I doubt it would add any value. Heck I wish I hadn't done the master's I'm currently doing! If you have ever interned anywhere in London you'd notice that virtually no one has a Master's degree, the banks don't care so why would you want to spend anpther year outside the workforce when you could start working this year (assuming you get UBS). Who knows things could get worse during recruitment time later this year and banks may not recruit at all for next year.
Pls advise Gekkos.
k, I am in no position to advise you. I just graduated last year. Now first year in Master in Mathematics... doing stupid shit like the guy described upstairs "derive black scholes from first principles using stochastic calculus", thats actually the easy part... wait until they ask you to prove Martingale representation theory, doing stochastic control... That being said, for me, I won't like to do any job coding etc. same reason I don't want to do financial modeling like pure jump models or risk management. It's not my personality to sit there and do research. I like to take risks as long as I know what I am doing. I would enjoy the competition.
Anyway, in your situation, if FICC quant internship is truly about coding, then I probably won't do it. On the other hand, there are questions around RBS HK volatility trading, as I mentioned before. I surmise you will trade index options... but you need to ask the recruiter those questions, bud. Do you due diligence. Ask them if there are cases in the past the quant interns switched to front office? What do they trade in HK? Is it market making or proprietary (probably market making)? how much volume do they trade? What responsibility would the interns assume?
I can't answer those questions... you need to find out. My gut feeling is that you will be better off with RBS HK. Reason: relatively smaller office, so you assume more responsibility and better networking result, most importantly you are trading or doing market analysis rather than coding. But you need to ask those questions above to better examine the situation.
Coding is pain in the a**. Keep doing it for several years any ordinary person would loss basic communication skill and will to communicate. Anyway, that is another debate.
No one wants to do MSc if everything worked out during undergraduate. Some Losers like myself missed out the morning for whatever reason have to be student again to be eligible.
Just a clarification that taking RBS internship doesn't mean I would be working there for full time after a year. It is all about landing a full time offer in 2012; ofc sooner the better.
My gut feeling is having RBS trading internship on my CV adds more value as opposed to UBS desk quant when applying for 2012 FT trading.
Quant to trading(bank's trading not high frequency/algo-trading) could take infinite time.
Tough decision.
Thanks guys.
missed out the morning train*
Same here, bro... But that doesn't mean we are losers... :) Keep learning and hustling. No God can stop a hungry man...
Choose wisely what you want to trade in the future. Always keep an eye on the big picture. Good luck to ya. Gekko: "Stay positive pal, most people they lose, they whine they quit. But ya gotta be there for the turns. Everybody’s got good luck, everybody’s got bad luck. Don’t run when you lose, don’t whine when it hurts."
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