freshstrokes:
Anthony,

Cornell does have a UG business school FYI

What is it's name? I just went to the Johnson School's website and it wasn't listed. I also do not see an UG business or finance major.

 

The posted above does make a good point. Everyone is looking at the list strictly as an investment banking rank whereas Business Week is ranking these schools for overall business. I do think the listing is crap, BUT a lot of those schools on the list have very large and well know alumni presence all throughout the business world. I am sure there are plenty of Notre Dame, USC, CMU, etc in all types of professional roles.

Like I said, not an accurate list of investment banking prominent schools, but not everyone wants to be an investment banker.

 
The posted above does make a good point. Everyone is looking at the list strictly as an investment banking rank whereas Business Week is ranking these schools for overall business. I do think the listing is crap, BUT a lot of those schools on the list have very large and well know alumni presence all throughout the business world. I am sure there are plenty of Notre Dame, USC, CMU, etc in all types of professional roles.

Like I said, not an accurate list of investment banking prominent schools, but not everyone wants to be an investment banker.

Agreed, if you look at the rankings for best jobs out of UG, the Big 4 usually occupies the top 4 spots

 

Notre Dame grad here-I agree with Anthony's point about banking versus business at large. A good number of ND grads go to Wall Street, but more go to Big 4, F500 management or finance rotational programs, etc. I don't know how valuable the rankings are without knowing more of the methodology, and I don't know how useful any ranking of school that excludes by default a lot of the top, top schools in the nation.

There have been many great comebacks throughout history. Jesus was dead but then came back as an all-powerful God-Zombie.
 

I would like to expand on one point. I personally think that the differences in classroom material at almost every school is marginal. Each school has a specialty, but lets face it, accounting 101 is the same no matter where you go. The thing that makes one school better than another is its reputation and alumni base. I really don't think 100-200 and even 300 level classes at Harvard are that much better than at Notre Dame or most anywhere else.

NOT saying that Harvard, etc are not amazing schools, but I really think the perception of a non ivy league/ top 10 education is incredibly distorted. You listen to some opinions on this board and you would think that kids that don't go to top schools are using coloring books and drooling on themselves in class.

 

Wharton without a doubt should be #1, but I wouldn't say that Notre Dame places kids as bank tellers. I am fairly sure anyone with a BS in Finance from ND can do well in anything they want.

Rankings are total crap.

 

I agree that these are just a ranking of very solid business programs for the purpose of a business education, not necessarily which ones are the most prestigious. Some are probably listed because they stand out with certain program features (e.g. Babson for entrepreneurship) even though their recruiting may not be the best, especially for Wall Street or MBB.

Also notice that the BW grades can change a lot from year to year, as if teaching quality, for example, can really change that much. This just leads me to believe that a huge part of BW rankings is their student survey, so it's all about whatever the students are feeling/reporting at the time. Rankings and "employer perception" are completely different things, which is one reason I don't like rankings. But for many students, rankings are a great resource to start out with. I remember the days when I religiously followed them during HS, and I can't say I won't look at them again if/when I apply for grad school.

 

Ok, I never understood why the Big 4 consistently get ranked top spot for "Best Places to Launch a Career". I used to read BW, Fortune, etc. and it always listed Big 4. When I was Soph. before I really started looking for internships. I was like, they must be good. Profile looks greats, over 100 world locations, project-based, based people in MBA, etc.

Now that I know better and have a few friends at some of the Big 4. Most either can't stand or have since quit. Though last 2 years they haven't had a raise might have skewed some of their opinions.

Why are they [Big 4] always ranked so highly for "Best Places to Launch a Career"? I've always wanted to know. Who keeps selling this to uninformed UG? Why are their criterion for ranking Best Places to Launch a Career? Don't get me wrong, they are good companies in their own right for certain people. But seriously, Best Places to Launch a Career?!

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Ari_Gold:
Ok, I never understood why the Big 4 consistently get ranked top spot for "Best Places to Launch a Career". I used to read BW, Fortune, etc. and it always listed Big 4. When I was Soph. before I really started looking for internships. I was like, they must be good. Profile looks greats, over 100 world locations, project-based, based people in MBA, etc.

Now that I know better and have a few friends at some of the Big 4. Most either can't stand or have since quit. Though last 2 years they haven't had a raise might have skewed some of their opinions.

Why are they [Big 4] always ranked so highly for "Best Places to Launch a Career"? I've always wanted to know. Who keeps selling this to uninformed UG? Why are their criterion for ranking Best Places to Launch a Career? Don't get me wrong, they are good companies in their own right for certain people. But seriously, Best Places to Launch a Career?!

Those magazines aren't exactly targeted at superstars.

 
Ari_Gold:
Ok, I never understood why the Big 4 consistently get ranked top spot for "Best Places to Launch a Career". I used to read BW, Fortune, etc. and it always listed Big 4. When I was Soph. before I really started looking for internships. I was like, they must be good. Profile looks greats, over 100 world locations, project-based, based people in MBA, etc.

Now that I know better and have a few friends at some of the Big 4. Most either can't stand or have since quit. Though last 2 years they haven't had a raise might have skewed some of their opinions.

Why are they [Big 4] always ranked so highly for "Best Places to Launch a Career"? I've always wanted to know. Who keeps selling this to uninformed UG? Why are their criterion for ranking Best Places to Launch a Career? Don't get me wrong, they are good companies in their own right for certain people. But seriously, Best Places to Launch a Career?!

I think it is because of reputation, training program, benefits, future opportunities. Accounting is a great field to start out in and if you do some time at a big 4 place and get your CPA you can do a lot of things if you decide to move on.

I think it was mentioned above and starting salary really is a big thing. For every finance grad who goes into IB you have one kid going to Edward Jones so the average salary is moderate at best. Also, I know Business Week rely's on student surveys. Notre Dame has insane student and alumni love. I bet you every single kid gives ND great marks. I think Ivy league students would be more critical, more judgmental when they fill in the reports. Lets face it, if you get a job making 50K from ND you are jumping up and down for joy, if you get a job making 50K from Wharton you will probably throw the survey out and be pissed. Perception is what matters.

 

Fine. But the fact remains that no one is going to choose a Big 4 accounting firms gig over Blackstone PE. If they want to say that a big 4 accounting firm is an attractive starting job, sure they can say that, but when they say it is the best they loose absolutely all credibility. As for their undergraduate business rankings, they make shit up about Wharton. Wharton does not release its SAT score, for instance, but Business week just palces it at 1450, which is OBVIOUSLY wrong - it's more like 1500. It is the same deal with the acceptance rate which is closer to 7-8% this year not 17% as businessweek suggests. Wharton does not release information to Businessweek, so businessweek is punishing Wharton for sticking its finger up to their shitty rankings.

Businessweek is tailored to idiots. It is a shit publication made by idiots for idiots. Their rankings and opionions have no credibility with anyone on anything.

 
empirestate:
Fine. But the fact remains that no one is going to choose a Big 4 accounting firms gig over Blackstone PE. If they want to say that a big 4 accounting firm is an attractive starting job, sure they can say that, but when they say it is the best they loose absolutely all credibility. As for their undergraduate business rankings, they make shit up about Wharton. Wharton does not release its SAT score, for instance, but Business week just palces it at 1450, which is OBVIOUSLY wrong - it's more like 1500. It is the same deal with the acceptance rate which is closer to 7-8% this year not 17% as businessweek suggests. Wharton does not release information to Businessweek, so businessweek is punishing Wharton for sticking its finger up to their shitty rankings.

Businessweek is tailored to idiots. It is a shit publication made by idiots for idiots. Their rankings and opionions have no credibility with anyone on anything.

Wharton doesn't give information so Business Week publishes their best estimates. Big 4 is the "best" for the largest amount of undergraduates. Blackstone PE does not take a significant amount of UG students for it to be factored. Very few kids ultimately go into IB, etc. These publications are for the MAJORITY of people. Furthermore, BW's rankings are based largely from student surveys.

I really don't see the issue. Wharton is #4 which is a great ranking. I personally think they are a better school than ND, but it isn't inconceivable that they shouldn't be ranked #1. They aren't the top MBA program either.

People need to relax, it is your GPA, networking and interviewing skills that will ultimately get you the job. Rankings are just there to aid and assist high school kids and their parents in their search for a school that fits well.

Please keep this in mind. I have heard from a bunch of sources including Wharton MBA's very recently that UG at Wharton is rather intense and cut throat. That is fine, but a lot of students might not be interested in that kind of environment. Some people learn better in a team orientated environment. Maybe some Wharton students are expressing this in the surveys they hand in. Just a thought.

 
empirestate:
Fine. But the fact remains that no one is going to choose a Big 4 accounting firms gig over Blackstone PE.
How many seniors does Blackstone PE hire every year?

Now, how many seniors does Big 4 hire every year and still pay relatively well?

No one from Wharton or Harvard would consider working at Big 4 Audit as success. Everyone from top targets wants to work at MS M&A or GS TMT, and then go to either KKR or TPG. So yea, you get the point.

Places like McIntire send student EVERYWHERE, Big 4, MBB, BB, MM, elite boutiques, small accounting/consulting firms, F500.

Also as AnthonyD1982 said below, Wharton is a cut-throat place. MD I worked with graduated from Wharton in 80s, he was 2nd in his class. Only once he received a grade lower than an A (his freshman year he received B) Whoever graduated 1st had all As, and that was back in 80s. Now competition is even tougher..

P.S.: I went to info session @ target school. About 60 kids showed up for BB presentations, only 7 for great MM boutique (a lot of WSO monkeys would love to work there).

 

I think we have a Wharton freshman haha.

Relax, Wharton is a fine school. Your not listening to what I am saying because you keep mentioning target this and target that. Business Week's list isn't perfectly accurate since most top schools don't have UG business programs anyway.

People can be stupid ( or more appropriately ignorant). Lists can only be imperfect.

 
Best Response

Wow, for every publication that does one ranking. 10,000 people hound for their heads. Yes, BW and all other rankings are flawed in one more or another. Yes, I don't follow rankings much anymore. But regardless what people argue. They publications do affect opinions [naive/ignorant] Freshies, HS, layman, etc.

I've known ND UG business kids. I interned with a few. They are decent and really, really love their school. This one thread on rankings has gotten so much attention. I guess that's why every publication under the sun wants to publish one of their own and sell papers to the masses.

Empirestate, relax. For a guy from Berkeley you sound like a NE Target school douche. Enjoy the Cali sun and the milk the broken state for as much it's worth before more shyt hits the fan. Isn't there like an 18% increase in tuition alone? I've been on this site now for a couple of months. It's become pretty easy and apparent to pick up on the posts from those in the industry, current and former (MBA, retired) VS. those still in college. I never realized, or might have forgot the amount of insecurity being thrown around. Every post or thread from UG is about why their school is actually AWESOME and why rankings don't mean shyt and why every one of us are misinformed and their school is a Target in disguise.

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If anything, large state schools are probably even better. I know UVA and Umich and Berkeley usually have a lot of kids at BB's,especially at the lower ones like db/wf/ubs.

I think the most overrated college is the science ones like JHU and MIT and caltech. I never see IBD pick kids from those schools. The same goes with Brown for some reason I never see them go into front office roles. I know 2 Brown girls who are in finance and audit at GS/MS and another guy who does marketing for a bank but they are rarely in IBD.

 
fritos:
If anything, large state schools are probably even better. I know UVA and Umich and Berkeley usually have a lot of kids at BB's,especially at the lower ones like db/wf/ubs.

I think the most overrated college is the science ones like JHU and MIT and caltech. I never see IBD pick kids from those schools. The same goes with Brown for some reason I never see them go into front office roles. I know 2 Brown girls who are in finance and audit at GS/MS and another guy who does marketing for a bank but they are rarely in IBD.

Could it be, just possibly, because MIT and Caltech kids don't want to do banking? Kids going into banking tends to also be self-perpetuating as recruiting at schools takes effort and alumni networks and if the yield is going to be terrible, why bother?

 
fritos:
I think the most overrated college is the science ones like JHU and MIT and caltech. I never see IBD pick kids from those schools.
Top science majors simply have better options than to work in finance, which they rightly believe is particularly boring.
 

No, I know I thought about responding to the comment in regards to MIT, CalTech, CMU, JHU. But this thread is getting on me.

I have a friend of a friend that went to MIT and he's at MS, and knowing him, he would only do FO. He did ChemE. Another friend from CMU is doing very well in trading, was EE/Physics. Not sure about Cal-Tech, but I'm sure they can do circles around trading if most chose to. JHU, most probably aspire to be doctors or go to SIAS and become diplomats.

They do, but most follow other aspirations like PhD programs in Astro Physics, Nano/Material Engineering, Consulting, etc. For those that want to and have decent like 3.3 in Engineering, they most likely can. But like previous poster stated. It becomes a matter of yield for the company.

They definitely want Analyst from these schools. But the effort to get them sometimes isn't worth it for companies as not enough join. Whereas if you recruit from Wharton, Sloan, etc. The banks know all the students want it. I'm pretty sure Sloan kids place well. Like I said before, not every one person at a Target wants to go into banking as hard as it is to believe. Some actually do want to do science and work at places like Jet Prop.Labs (JPL), NASA.

Whatever this thread has ran its course. I'm out.

----------------------------------------------------------------- Hug It Out
 

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