Underrepresented minorities

Recently there are plenty of posts where people are complaining diversity recruiting has gone too far. 

Thinking about the idea of diversity recruiting, of which the recruitment is not totally merit-based, I'm thinking using the same logic should be applied to sports. Asians are "URM in sports", as they're stereotypically considered unatheletic and have a hard time doing well in sports.

So shall we implement rules like these:

NCAAF teams must have at least 2 regular Asian players.

NBA teams must have at least one Asian players. 

And now after saying the above myself (being an Asian) I feel like it doesn't sound right… But if you're against these it makes you a racist and how is it different from diversity recruitment?

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Comments (87)

Sep 12, 2021 - 3:40am

Disclaimer: I know nothing about pro sports, how the industry works, or how athletes are signed.

If a pro athlete of Asian origin would try to qualify for the top teams, would he or she be discriminated against?
 

I don't think I ever had the chance to view a game of any sports so far, but I am assuming that each league has a dominant group in them?

Sep 12, 2021 - 3:44am

Asians have long been known for having a hard time in college sports recruiting (also big leagues like NBA). A good example will be Jeremy Lin, played decent basketball at high school, try to get offers from D1 college to play, no offers, try to go NBA draft, not drafted. All the coaches said he is Asian and he is not athletic so didn't actually bother looking at his profile and consider him. However, his stats are actually one of the best in that year lol. And we all know how the story went.

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Funniest
Sep 12, 2021 - 8:25am

I wish one sports reporter would ask Lebron James if he thinks there should be affirmative action for NBA rosters and equal pay between the NBA and WNBA players. That would expose him for the fraud that he is.

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Sep 12, 2021 - 9:33am

Or why there are no trans men trying to play in men's sports since there is no difference between men or women physically.

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Sep 12, 2021 - 8:31am

Yep I agree with you OTCChemist (I am Asian too). I feel like diversity recruiting and admissions have been literally the opposite of what it is intended to do. I now go around and feel like diversity inclusion activities are like "Cut a tongue and you will prove that you are afraid of him to talk" and it really makes people think that diversity recruits only got in because of their ethnicity. And Asians are now seem like a "tool" and not respected as this movement 1. Makes Asian seems like they can't stand up for themselves 2. It really creates ice walls and distance us from others as again (1. There is repercussion if they are aggressive/playfully aggressive against us 2. It makes us seem like we got in because of that recruitment protocol and other people will think that we aren't up to par). This goes with not only Asian ethnicities but Africans and Nordic/Slavic ethnicities as well. Categorising everyone as white/black or yellow and give most of the slots to us and the African community and we have imbalance against the "white" ethnicity. While the white ethnicity have people form other minority and underprivileged communities as well (Norwegians, Russians and Belarussians). I think it is better to have anonymous recruiting and drafting. Just by purely looking on player stats and personality description to avoid unconscious prejudgement.

With that being said I don't know why is racism a problem in most places. While it is no problem here in Asia and Northern Europe. Asians don't actually care if you call them chinks or farmers. And same for my black friends we just don't care about the N-word (if we ever say it our friends wouldn't care anyway). The way to eradicate this problem I believe is not make it a problem. People need to practice Zen. And patience as I believe we should use this to move on and not dwell on our past. Sure we Asians were Nazis. But it is time to move on and forgive. Chasing tails of revenge would only lead to infinite lifetimes of grudge and anger.

Sep 12, 2021 - 8:43am

Some very fair points mentioned. I totally agree with you there. The best thing to do is not to artificially "fixed" it (diversity recruitment/events). Instead, policies like regular reviews of the equality of the recruitment process would be better.

  • Associate 2 in RE - Res
Sep 12, 2021 - 8:43am

Some defenders of affirmative action will say that sports are meritocratic, and therefore they don't need preferences to counteract bias. Whereas gaps in education and business are the result of racism, and preferences produce a more meritocratic outcome by offsetting the racism and allowing the talented URMs to take their rightful places: places they would earn naturally if there were no racism. So preferences for URMs actually improve the talent pools in these settings.

However, this is NOT the official legal rationale for affirmative action. The modern rationale in the US dates back to the Bakke Supreme Court decision in 1978. It's now part of law and has extensively influenced academia and the corporate world. The Bakke rationale is that diversity is a compelling public good and can be pursued even at the expense of meritocracy. That means that institutions can, and should, implement affirmative action even when they know that this entails admitting people who are objectively less talented.

Under this rationale, it's totally legitimate to criticize college and professional sports teams for their non-representative rosters.

Sep 12, 2021 - 10:12am

It's not meritocratic. My parents made me learn to read and do multiplication tables instead of buying me Air Jordans and letting me whoop YT azz on the bball court, hoopin' it up during school hourz like a truant. How was I supposed to become a star?

Sep 12, 2021 - 11:02am

T30Graduate

It's not meritocratic. My parents made me learn to read and do multiplication tables instead of buying me Air Jordans and letting me whoop YT azz on the bball court, hoopin' it up during school hourz like a truant. How was I supposed to become a star?

I am confused by your statement here.  May be I am not understanding the term meritocratic.  You are saying sports recruiting is not based on merit but at the same time, you are saying that your lack of training in sports is the reason you did not excel in sports.  

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Sep 12, 2021 - 10:19am

Drumpfy

After the "men in college" thread I can't take you guys complaining about diversity seriously any more.  

This topic makes no sense.  Most Asian families in the US do not emphasize sports for kids when they are growing up. You might see a couple of Asians kids in little league or basketball leagues.  However, as they get older, classes get more difficult and time consuming.  I could say the same thing about Jewish kids.  For the most part Jews, Asians and Indians follow the same model, which is to spend a lot of time on education and not so much on sports.   Another issue holding back these groups back in sports is their physical size. The main reason there are not more Asians in major sports or in recruiting is mostly related to a lack of interest on their part.  You can't recruit, which for the most part, does not exist. 

There are very few Jews in the MLB and I can't even name one person of Indian decent.  There are far more successful Asians in the MLB, than Jews and Indians but these Asians are often from Japan.  Shohei Otani, from Japan is probably going to win the American league MVP this year. At least in baseball, your race, has very little to with interest in you as a player.  If you can excel at hitting or pitching, a team is going to want you to play for them.

There is definitely discrimination against Asians in Sports (when they get there) but this is mostly because, some athletes are kind of ignorant.  Yu Darvish, a Japanese pitcher, has faced discrimination on the field, which is very unfortunate.

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  • Associate 2 in RE - Res
Sep 12, 2021 - 11:16am

The main reason there are not more Asians in major sports or in recruiting is mostly related to a lack of interest on their part.  You can't recruit, which for the most part, does not exist. 

Do you seriously believe that there aren't tons of Asians who would love to become rich and famous as NBA players? Of course there are. Maybe they aren't quite as good as the current NBA players, but that just shows that they need a boost in the form of hiring preferences.

Read my comment above about Bakke. The fact that the NBA does actually hire the most talented basketball players is no defense of it. The league still has a moral obligation to promote the public good of diversity by making race a factor in player selection.

Do you think that logic is stupid? So do I! But it's the same logic that justifies affirmative action in corporate America and academia.

Sep 12, 2021 - 12:23pm

I agree with almost everything you said except saying there aren't a lot of Jewish MLB players relative to Asians. At pretty much every point in the past 25 years, there have been ~10-15 Jewish players on big league rosters (e.g., Alex Bregman, Max Fried, Joc Pedersen, Ryan Braun, Rowdy Tellez in recent years). That's around 1% of the MLB, and since Jews are only 1.5-2% of the US and a large % of players are from countries where around 0% of the population is Jewish, that's about proportionate actually. Asians are more prevalent in MLB but not by much, and most of these players are from Japan or Korea which each have 4-10x the Jewish population in the entire world. Not something to quibble over, but also inaccurate to say Asians are overrepresented in MLB relative to Jews.

Sep 12, 2021 - 1:55pm

Yeah, and that's exactly the point of this post. The reason why Asians are underrepresented in some sports is the same reason minorities are underrepresented in certain fields: lack of interest and effort. It's nonsensical to blame it mostly on discrimination and introduce programs that penalize groups for actually performing well.

  • Associate 1 in PE - LBOs
Sep 12, 2021 - 10:34am

Drumpfy

After the "men in college" thread I can't take you guys complaining about diversity seriously any more.  

Tell me you're a self-hating liberal soyboy without telling me you're a self-hating liberal soyboy . 

Most Helpful
Sep 12, 2021 - 10:29am

The entire basis of all of these idiotic diversity/URM arguments is that the simple presence of a "low representation" of a given demographic in the chosen subject = racism/sexism that can therefore only be fixed by setting quotas or lowering barriers to entry. This is post-modernism at it's finest because it is an oversimplified deconstructive argument that you can take to the ends of the earth in almost any field. No I am not saying that in the past there weren't barriers to entry in some fields, there ABSOLUTELY were. But that time has long since passed, so what is really the purpose of these advocacy groups anymore? The answer is quite simply that they are self-sustaining entities with no real end goal, because once the cause has been successful they must choose another one to champion and continue the outrage donation gravy train.

What are you setting the proportion to? The population demographics of the US? 

Race and ethnicity in the United States

White - 60.3%
Hispanic and Latino (of any race) - 18.5%
Black or African American - 13.4%
Asian - 5.9%
Two or more races - 2.8%
Native Americans and Alaska Natives - 1.3%
Native Hawaiians and Other Pacific Islanders - 0.2%

United States of America - Male to female ratio of the total population

In 2020, male to female ratio for United States of America was 97.95 males per 100 females.

So any profession that does not break down into these specific demographics percentagewise MUST be racist/sexist? Just off the top of my head that includes:

  • ALL professional sports
  • ALL of education
  • ALL of finance
  • Skilled trades (plumbing, HVAC, electrical, oilfield, roofing, contracting, etc.)
  • Doctors and nurses
  • Engineers (in the traditional sense, mechanical, civil, aerospace, electrical, etc.)
  • Computer Scientists / Software Engineers
  • Psychologists / Therapists  

 As you can probably gather, the list goes on to infinity. NO field has "perfect" representation. And given that we live in a free country (debatable with how things are going recently, but for now anyway) these "disparities" are inarguably a result of personal choice. There is no all-seeing gatekeeper standing at the doors of every NFL team coach's office keeping an eye out for Hispanics saying "no, not you amigo, only the homies" or at the sign up desk in a Head Nurse's office spiking away the legions of men looking to apply. There's no overseer in grade schools telling the masses of girls who are excelling in mathematics that they can't be an engineer or work in finance. People choose what they want to study and what career paths they want to traverse. I'm all for creating clubs and organizations to encourage different groups to try new things, but this idea of preferential hiring based on race/sex/sexual identification is utter lunacy. 

It's worth noting as well that this URM argument is ONLY being applied in the high paying white collar jobs in the first place. "We need more women engineers. We need more women bankers. We need more black investors. We need more Hispanic programmers." No one is saying "We need more gay HVAC professionals. We need more women oil rig workers. We need more black auto repairmen." When you boil it down to the incentive structures of the groups involved, of course these advocacy groups will only focus on the areas that will make their target audience/donors more wealthy and able to contribute to the cause.

The entire grievance industry is itself a racket that makes the people running the nonprofits millions. Just look at how BLM raised billions, yet where is that money being put into black communities? We're getting peeks Inside BLM co-founder Patrisse Khan-Cullors' million-dollar real estate buying binge but where is the BLM sports and community center or BLM engineering cohort programs? There aren't any. Because the goal has never been to help anyone. It's been to attract money to a cause by turning people against each other with the ever present human characteristic of envy by pointing out what one group has that another group doesn't. Enrage the group you claim to represent and channel that rage into demands for money from individuals, businesses and the government to enact changes that only you in your infinite wisdom know how to implement properly. But those changes never come. The money is pocketed. And all the people who lack either the critical thinking to see what's happening or simply don't care enough to resist it are played for fools. 

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  • Associate 2 in RE - Res
Sep 12, 2021 - 11:07am

I actually prefer that the corporate billions lavished on BLM go to lining the pockets of the organizers rather than to the leftist political agitation they were intended for.

Sep 12, 2021 - 12:56pm

Make no mistake, they can and are doing both at the same time. To continue to fund the organization is to continue the agitprop they're aggressively promoting to continue bringing in donations. It's an endless cycle which can only be resolved by total government control via the people pushing for it. Hence them being self-reported trained Marxists. 

Ignoring the actual channel, this was the first clip on YouTube I found from the interview where they literally state it. 

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Sep 12, 2021 - 11:40am

There are 10 people in a room, 9 of them are white/Asian males. The other is brown/black/woman.You don't get the job or admitted into the school.Since clearly those 9 white/asian got in based on merit, perhaps you should ask yourself why you're the dumbest white/asian in the room.

Sep 12, 2021 - 11:46am

Short people are underrepresented in the NBA. We need at least 25% of NBA players to be 5'7 or shorter.

Also trans-men are underepresented. We need at least 10% of the NBA to be transgender.

Time to fight fat phobia as well. 42% of Americans are obese. Where the fuck are they in the NBA? It's fucking urgent to correct this fatphobic industry. 40% of players must be obese.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

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Sep 12, 2021 - 12:55pm

If there are underrepresented minorities, there are overrepresented minorities as well.

And affirmative action doesn't feel right to you because your culture hasn't inculcated you into a victim mindset. Some cultures in America clearly do that.

IMO many high status Americans have a self-masturbatory fetish with minorities they feel are underrepresented. They need something to worship, so they worship themselves and their never ending wisdom to help those they think want their useless help. And then it becomes a worthless prestige & signaling game.

  • Associate 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 12, 2021 - 2:24pm

It's actually crazy how normal ass kids who might be Peruvian or some shit place that on their resume.

Deadass have seen someone's resume list skills, interests, and ethnicity.

Literally satirical. Someone needs to make a movie about this shit

Sep 12, 2021 - 4:21pm

Thanks for sharing, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Jeremy never got noticed, repeatedly not got picked up because he is an Asian. Going through a much harder path and finally got a chance to showcase his skills, everybody was suarprised by how good he is, and they're like,"why did he not get drafted?"

All the coaches internationally not drafting an asian because of their stereotypes are the reason. 

Sep 12, 2021 - 6:26pm

The reason Jeremy Lin did not get noticed probably has more than do with the division he played in and his height than him being Asian.  The ivy division is not known for turning out basketball stars.  The competition was probably weak.

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Sep 12, 2021 - 4:26pm

Let's not forget when Yao just joined the whole US is making fun of the signing. Everybody says he is just a tool to bring NBA into Chinese market. Saying that he is the typical unatheletic asian who cannot do sports. 

So given the Lin and Yao's case, in which they both went through a more difficult career path, NBA should force teams to sign asian players just to make their life easier?

Controversial
Sep 12, 2021 - 4:00pm

Comparing short NBA players (who cannot compete fundamentally) to black black people and other minorities in banking and other high paying jobs is an inherently racist argument and I am glad most of you spewing these sorts of statements have been gate kept out of this industry. 

I do not know what we did to garner so much hatred when at my bank there are about 3 black people out of a few hundred mostly white male bankers. Yet, when people are rejected they point to the 3ish black front office staff as being responsible on this forum. As a matter of fact I don't know any investment bank that is majority black yet people are saying AA has gone top far because they see one too many black and minority faces around.

The bitter truth is the people gate keeping you out of these institutions are usually ultra rich trust fund kids of all races and genders who have been in this business and others like it for generations, for example the former CEO of Credit Suisse is from Ivory Coast where the capital city is named after his fucking grandmother, he didn't get in via AA I can promise you that and there is no variant of a DCF you could have memorized that would have got you in instead of him, even if AA didn't exist. I do not know why this is so hard for most of you to accept. If you had gotten offers at these banks and had a chance to work there maybe you'll sing a different tune but affirmative action still helps and wanting to take it away because YOU specifically can't get a break is such an Incel type of mindset. 

Using the NBA example which is often repeated, a 5 foot tall NBA player simply will not be able to complete against the other 6 foot+ athletes. So saying black people and other minorities are similarly disadvantaged is really just being ignorant for no reason, work on yourself and network your way in.

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Sep 12, 2021 - 4:02pm

i.can.make.it

work on yourself and network your way in.

Say this part louder for the bozos in the back

Sep 12, 2021 - 5:34pm

Remember the men in college thread?

This forum thinks that when men get worse grades then women, it's a product of a conspiracy that starts with female teachers and ends with AOC and man hating feminists.  And it is so bad that western society should collapse.

Their goal is to be oppressed, simple as that

  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 12, 2021 - 7:13pm

This comparison is stupid. The work of an analyst is not hard. Almost anyone could do it. The bank teaches you everything you need to know and you're basically a glorified secretary. Aren't we all called monkeys because even a monkey could do the job. 

Some of my tasks include:

1. Finding logos online and putting them into a powerpoint

2. Converting powerpoints to PDFs so that my MD can read it on his phone.

3. Changing the date in excel and then refreshing charts 

4. Attend diligence calls and say "Centerview is on the line", take notes, and afterwards email the lawyer and say that you were on the call.

You can't teach someone to run a 4 minute mile. You can teach someone the keyboard shortcut to factset refresh. I recently was working on a deal for a cosmetic company and I would have loved to have a gal on the analyst on the deal team so I wouldn't have looked so stupid in front of my VP who is a woman.

Sep 12, 2021 - 8:03pm

This comparison is stupid. The work of an analyst is not hard. Almost anyone could do it. The bank teaches you everything you need to know and you're basically a glorified secretary. Aren't we all called monkeys because even a monkey could do the job. 

Some of my tasks include:

1. Finding logos online and putting them into a powerpoint

2. Converting powerpoints to PDFs so that my MD can read it on his phone.

3. Changing the date in excel and then refreshing charts 

4. Attend diligence calls and say "Centerview is on the line", take notes, and afterwards email the lawyer and say that you were on the call.

You can't teach someone to run a 4 minute mile. You can teach someone the keyboard shortcut to factset refresh. I recently was working on a deal for a cosmetic company and I would have loved to have a gal on the analyst on the deal team so I wouldn't have looked so stupid in front of my VP who is a woman.

Call NY Board of Ed, offer to teach, for ¡Free!, the abilities you mentioned at an assortment of randomly selected outer boroughs schools. It can be at any grade level. You will realize there's no teaching the children of imbeciles (who may or may not know their imbecile dad, I've got Mr. Springer on the line to schedule a lie detector test….) a lot of what you take for granted. 

Sep 12, 2021 - 8:57pm

Absurd. It's not hard for you because you're well educated and presumably highly intelligent. In my analyst class, a quarter of the people dropped out during our month long training. 

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  • Analyst 1 in IB - Gen
Sep 12, 2021 - 9:55pm

Can I ask why they quit? Were the hours too much or was the material too hard to grasp?

I'm flattered you think I'm highly intelligent but I was pretty bad when I started. Didn't intern anywhere freshman or sophomore summer. Failed all of my accounting and modeling exams during training (I was like 30% below average on every one). 

I've also seen a lot of people quit (leaving the industry entirely to 9-5s) who were much more technically proficient, smarter, better gpas etc then me but some how I've outlasted them and I think it's because I'm gritty enough to handle being berated at 2am over a footnote in the appendix and don't take it too personallyAnd this 100% comes from my freshman and sophomore seasons riding the bench and grinding in the gym until I eventually had a breakout season.

The other thing is you need to be savvy enough to find someone in the firm who will take you under their wing that you can ask lots of stupid questions. This is the hardest part because if you ask the wrong person you're fucked.

TLDR: you don't need to be a technical genius, you just need to be able to grind and grind and grind until it all clicks. 

  • Intern in IB-M&A
Sep 13, 2021 - 12:50am

Always amaze me how people in finance LOVE to comp themselves against professional athletes. You really think spreading comps and editing MD bio require any intellectual horsepower or strenuous practice??? 

Sep 13, 2021 - 8:15am

Always amaze me how people in finance LOVE to comp themselves against professional athletes. You really think spreading comps and editing MD bio require any intellectual horsepower or strenuous practice??? 

Yeah, finance is easy, which is why the CFA exam has a 35% pass rate. Anyone with a high school diploma should be able to crush finance. IB is super easy. Anyone could do it. All you have to do to make 7 figures is bring in multiple 8 figures of revenue. No problem. Anyone could convince major companies to do business with them in a highly competitive industry. All easy stuff.

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  • Intern in IB-M&A
Sep 13, 2021 - 8:59am

1. Most people in IB don't have / need CFA

2. Your average MD (the ones responsible for schmoozing clients) is not spreading comps nor editing their own bio

Rainmakers make the story hella different and VP up is entirely merit-based (you don't bring revenue to the franchise you get shown the door). Juniors are completely different.

  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 13, 2021 - 6:52am

You laid out this argument like it makes any sense. Athletic ability is in no way comparable to learning finance. Most diversity candidates are intelligent, also finance is not that hard to learn if we're keeping it real. Anyone with an average level of intelligence and decent work ethic can join a BB and learn. But not any average person can join a top sports team and become good. Sport requires some level of natural ability that you either have or you don't. 

Sep 13, 2021 - 7:08am

You laid out this argument like it makes any sense. Athletic ability is in no way comparable to learning finance. Most diversity candidates are intelligent, also finance is not that hard to learn if we're keeping it real. Anyone with an average level of intelligence and decent work ethic can join a BB and learn. But not any average person can join a top sports team and become good. Sport requires some level of natural ability that you either have or you don't. 

I am not sure how important natural ability is when it comes to sports.  I am sure it plays some role but I do no think it is the most important factor for most sports.  The most important factor is work ethic.  You can't just walk onto a baseball field and be a star without a lot of practice. That applies to star athletes as well.  If a great baseball player stopping hitting baseballs for a couple of years, he would be terrible at it for a while

The athlete to URM is a flawed comparison.  Making it worse is comparing underrepresented Asians in sports to URM.  Most Asian people do not even want to play sports.  Most URM candidates want to go to school or get a job.  

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  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Sep 13, 2021 - 8:54am

I think you're understating the impact of talent on sports especially using the example OP gave of NBA. There is a crazy stat that 17% of 7 footers in US play in the NBA. Lebron James' best assets are his weight, speed, and height (also his basketball IQ). He is just a freak of nature as are many NBA players.Of course hard work is important but its has a limit. At some point, if you're 5'5, no matter how hard you work you are fighting an almost impossible battle to make it into the NBA. 

Sep 13, 2021 - 9:04am

It's actually far more comparable than you realize.

If a person desires to play in the NFL, he will attempt to attend the best college football program he can to prepare him for the NFL draft; even so, being drafted into the NFL is very unlikely and being drafted in the top rounds is extremely unlikely. 

Likewise, if one desires to make 7 or 8 figures in the financial services sector (in this instance, high finance) one attempts to get into an investment banking analyst program. Like college football player, IBD analyst is not the final destination; it is preparation for managing director (or similar). As in professional sports, managing directors (and whatever similar titles) are rare because it takes a special kind of talent (a rare talent, if you will) to win substantial enough business to pay the salaries of an office of highly-paid staff and to earn a profit for investors. The kind of talent that can do that is approaching talent levels in similar rarity to professional atheletes.

So, if we think investment banking programs should be engaged in affirmative action, you should also expect college football programs to engage in affirmative action. Or minor league baseball teams, or college basketball programs.  

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Sep 13, 2021 - 11:19am

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  • Research Associate in AM - Equities
Sep 13, 2021 - 10:25am

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