Interviewing behind your current firms back

All right, heres the deal primates: I am a recent intern to hire (temporarily) working as a junior analyst with a middle market M&A shop. I was contacted by a larger and more reputable firm in the area about an analyst I position and I took the interview I was offered. The place I interviewed at knows I am currently employed but my firm does not know I am looking at outside positions (clarification: the agreement was that they would bring me on as a junior analyst for a 3-month period and then maybe decide to keep me as a full time analyst with a big-boy salary and all the full-time benefits).

Question: A) Is it likely that the firm I interviewed with will contact my current employer?

B) Is it a no-no to share my work materials from past deals (all names/identifying info redacted) upon request?

C) Is it a smart thing for me to continue looking for other options until I secure a full-time permanent position?

 
Best Response

a) No. b) Yes, is no no, even with redactions. You can redact 50% of a document and, if I'm familiar enough with the industry, I could probably work out who you're talking about. So no one shares work product like this and no one really should ask for it. c) Yes. If I was your current employer, I'd think you were dumb if you didn't.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 
therealwolf:

No offence taken, I'm more concerned if they somehow heard through the grapevine that I shared some of the models i've built

I would definitely NOT do that. If you built the models at your current firm, they are legally the property of your employer. It might not sound like a big deal, but your interviewers could view this as "Wow, if this guy shares his employer's models, how can we trust him with anything?"

 

Is it likely that you will run into your direct MD / supervisor who you told you had a dentist appointment while actually interviewing at another firm on the 28th floor a few miles away? No.

Did it happen to me? Yes.

 

I'd simply say "I am very interested in the position, but I have concerns that my current employer might view any work I've done as proprietary. Would you be open to me doing a hypothetical model/pitch instead of sharing things I've built for employer xyz?"

They don't really care specifically what the work is - they just want to see how good your sample product is. For example, at my startup we ask all new hires for a writing sample. We won't hire anyone who is unable to put a few sentences together.

 

Only been there a few months - any particular reason you are interviewing around so soon? A lot of employers don't look kindly on such a short stint, regardless of the circustances.

All the world's indeed a stage, And we are merely players, Performers and portrayers, Each another's audience, Outside the gilded cage - Limelight (1981)
 

LOL then you have ninja around that question and answering it. You can also just tell the truth: you took the day off, and then move on to the next topic very quickly. Unless you're at a tiny shop, your current boss won't ever find out, and it's highly unlikely that they're going to call your current boss and be all "HEY THIS GUY IS INTERVIEWING HERE, WE'RE DICKS SO WE THOUGHT WE'D CONTACT YOU AND LET YOU KNOW....JUST TO BE DICKS". They're not going to do that. They get that you're transferring internally, they're not stupid

Get busy living
 

If it's a big firm, these internal transfers can take months. Take it from someone who went through an internal transfer at a firm the size of ~JPM.

There could be 1-2 months of being stuck in a situation where you know you have the offer, your boss knows you have the offer, but it hasn't been signed off by HR and the CFO's office, and you haven't started working there. This always makes things awkward, but it will make things ESPECIALLY awkward if you're leaving after ~4 months.

I probably do have some bias here. People will tell you that I am extremely conservative. They will also tell you that I give advice like I have some vendetta for job hoppers. The first claim has some truth to it; I don't think the second is true. But my bias doesn't affect my advice that before the 18 month mark, it's easier to leave the firm than it is to do an internal transfer. After the 18 month mark, internal transfers to careers a reasonable distance from your current role get MUCH easier.

Regardless, don't tell your boss. And be aware of the fact that if this is a huge firm with a slowwwww internal transfer process, there will be an awkward month or two. IIRC, I was told I had the offer around Feb 1st 2010, but I didn't start working until April 1st 2010.

 

Ninja-ing seems about right, I guess.

IP, I understand. But I was interviewed by the group in the winter, and they reached out for me to interview again after they found out I was with the bank. So, it seems like they are too interested for me to say, no thanks right now. I appreciate the advice, at least I won't be shocked by the timing now.

 

I'm on the other end: your job is not your family and they don't care about you. If you want to get another job.....GO! It's that simple. Sometimes loyalty is rewarded, more often they don't care. You're below director level where you're bringing revenue and mostly likeley....they.do.not.care.about.you.

Keep everything on the DL, get the offer, then put your two weeks in. That's it. That's all you "owe them".

I do agree with IP that telling your current boss is a bad idea. Thing is, you're expected to jump around a bit when you're just getting started. Do it five times, you're a job hopper, do it two or three...you're good.

Also: some transfers can take a while. Others happen very fast. I know a guy that went from ops to FO (same company) and it took I dunno, like a week? I was pure slash and burn right out of school, maybe not a good approach, but when I look at people still doing a job they hate I can only wonder why they didn't pull the trigger and hit the road.

Also assume that if the IB group wants you, they're not going to dick you over. What do they gain from that??? They already have no time for anything, but they're talking to you so they're interested. They don't have time to dick around. If they want you in their group, they're going to get you in their group.

Get busy living
 
UFOinsider:

Also assume that if the IB group wants you, they're not going to dick you over. What do they gain from that??? They already have no time for anything, but they're talking to you so they're interested. They don't have time to dick around. If they want you in their group, they're going to get you in their group.

Loyalty? Responsibility? The realization that most jobs involve doing something that other people don't want to do?

The really specialized stuff means there's a little less adverse selection. But even here, work tends to be boring . You're always working on something because you must, not because you choose to, and that takes some of the fun out of it.

That's life. That's the way jobs go. If you don't like it, you can always quit and stop collecting a paycheck. But don't go back and forth trying to find the greenest grass. Find a place where you enjoy the grass more than most other people would.

 

Y2A, I really didn't do much, and I haven't successfully lateraled yet. I heard the group was looking for someone again. I met the kid they did hire during initial training. I just shelved it though because I have only been with my group such a short time. He must have mentioned me anyway or they found out somewhere else, because they reached out. Sorry, not very helpful.

 

Its true that disclosing would make you a more attractice candidate. I think you should look out for yourself and try getting the best offer you can. This is not the first time this has been done and neither is it going to be the last. Disclose and interview and get the best F/T gig you can get.

 

Sharing proprietary information brings back memories.

I remember interviewing someone circa 2012. She offered to us a copy of her current employers client list. She actually had it in her hand bag and offered to give it to us in the meeting, without even having an offer from us.

We: - Dinged her straight away (integrity score = 0; if she'd shop around her current employer's proprietary info, she'd likely do the same with our information); and - Refused look at or take a copy of the client list (we were interviewers of integrity!)

Those who can, do. Those who can't, post threads about how to do it on WSO.
 

Keep your suit in a big plastic shopping bag or in a gym bag or something. As for excuses, the dentist appointment thing works once in a while, or you can also just schedule your interviews either before or after work -- if you convey to the interviewer that you're unable to get away from your desk during normal hours but can meet with them first thing in the morning or after hours, that would be ideal sine you don't want to miss the opportunity...

​* http://www.linkedin.com/in/numicareerconsulting
 

First off, bring a bag and put the jacket and tie in it. So very easy, you can do it on the subway, it'll take three seconds and completely obfuscates your jacket issue. Also, just start doing a tie every day and say that you want to start "stepping it up" or whatever that way it looks natural.

With regards to other excuses, doctors, furniture delivery, allergist, optometrist, signing a lease, viewing an apartment, lunch with an old friend, drivers license renewal, dispute with a dry cleaner. Just get creative and pay attention to what other people are doing. This is generally the time of year when things slow down and you can get away with long lunches etc anyway.

--There are stupid questions, so think first.
 
PowerMonkey:
Just get creative and pay attention to what other people are doing. This is generally the time of year when things slow down and you can get away with long lunches etc anyway.

PowerMonkey mentions a very important point. Be cognizant of when people are coming and going, and time your own departure accordingly. For me, I had access to my boss' calendar, and my assistant was notorious for coming in late, taking long lunches, and leaving early....so I just arranged my interviews accordingly when I didn't want my boss to know. I also scheduled a couple interviews pretty early in the morning (I'm talking about 6:30-7:30AM in some instances) or during the evening (at 6:00PM or afterwards). Ultimately, I think my boss figured out that I was interviewing elsewhere, but I don't think he could ever prove it and in the end it didn't really matter what his suspicions were.

My performance didn't suffer, and if he found some way to get rid of me while in reality I wasn't actually looking for another job, he'd be seriously screwing himself over. So yeah, I totally understand how people feel paranoid about getting "caught" looking for other jobs -- I felt that way myself -- but at the end of the day, you need to do what you need to do, and chances are, it will take the other people around you much longer to figure out that you're interviewing than you might imagine.

​* http://www.linkedin.com/in/numicareerconsulting
 

What position you're interviewing for changes the attitude you take. When me and others in my analyst class were interviewing for buyside, we pretty much came and went as we pleased. Sometimes that meant showing up to work at noon or leaving for hours in the afternoon. While nobody was too blatent about it, it did make for some interesting conversations.

Very senior MD: Where's XYZ Analyst? Me: Um, he's "out to lunch." Very senior MD: Again? That guy is ALWAYS eating!

Obviously lateral positions at rival banks are a different story.

 

"I have something personal to take care of".

As an analyst I admit that might appear bold considering your almost every minute is accounted for and so you feel the need to have a specific excuse for your every absence (assoc+ should less concerned), but if youve reached a point where youve exhausted those already mentioned or youre displeased about having to make excuses in the first place, or you just dont give a sh*t - by all means repeat that phrase to your direct report. I love it because it adds a hint of the game to the situation, especially in the height of free agency season (or if your direct suspects youre unhappy) and it makes them think about whether or not youre interviewing just a little bit more than saying you have a dentist appointment but its never so overt that its questioned beyond the occasional "is everything all right?", to which I cleverly reply, "it will be" or so that it has the traitorous stigma attached if they know for sure you are interviewing elsewhere (in which case you better get the job). Its also nice because in some instances, youll notice the white gloves came out and you get handled with care - tho often theres no real diff. Probably not the cleanest advice for an analyst, but, i found it as a nice way to amuse myself before a potential exit. Then again maybe Im just comically sinister, either way: dulce periculum.

 

I always felt like the leash that banking kept on you was pretty imaginary. As a first year I always felt like I needed to let someone know where I was or where I was going in case someone came looking for me. As a year passed by and we all got wiser (and more bitter), we realized that you can get away with just about anything if your group is big enough, especially if you've established a good reputation. If you showed up late, like 11AM (this especially holds true in the summer), people either assume you've had a really late night or that you're in a meeting with ECM/DCM/M&A/Sponsors. Same goes if you're gone for 2 or 3 hours, people assume you're in meetings, or a drafting session, or at the printers. Or if you're gone entire half days, people just assume you've been traveling.

And even when it's abundantly clear that you're interviewing, people don't really care that much (if you're an analyst, anyways).

 

i agree with wintonheights and GameTheory. sometimes, the more excuses you make, the worse off you are. just do what you need to do, step out for your interview at a time when things aren't so busy, and come back later. it sounds ballsy at first, and it may or may not work depending on your work environment...but assuming you have some level of autonomy, don't feel like you need to tell someone where you are every time. sometimes, trying to make excuses or to defend your whereabouts just draws more attention to yourself. act like everything's business as usual.

​* http://www.linkedin.com/in/numicareerconsulting
 

At least if you're interviewing for a buyside position... people kind of expect you to move on, it's obviously a different story if you're going to another bank or you're not an Analyst.

I think GameTheory makes a good point: unless you have a specific commitment or obligation, you can get away with a lot if you have a good reputation and are in a large group.

Case in point: Sometimes I show up to the office at 10-11 AM now, and while I occasionally have a late night, a lot of the time I'm admittedly just lazy/have stopped caring. :)

No one notices or cares because they assume I'm either traveling, at a drafting session, in a meeting or helping 1st years here.

In terms of interviewing, I almost think it's ridiculous to come up with doctor/dentist/plumber type excuses multiple times every week. People will know what you're doing and you look worse by lying about it.

I was actually just chatting about this very issue with a 1st year the other day and told her to be upfront and that no one would really care.

 

How about when I am lateraling from a role where it isn't as widely accepted to be out for 2-3 hours at a time? Any other advice? I have had a few interviews, but nothing has materialized yet so I'm starting to run out of sick days/excuses. Your input would be helpful!

 
grosse:

100 hour weeks aren't 100 hours in front of your computer grinding away. It wasn't all that difficult for me to get away for an hour or so here and there to interview

I echo this. You're usually not working 100% of the day (if you are on live deals it can sometimes be close) so it's not hard to sneak away for an hour or two to interview. People are away from their desks all the time, whether it be in a VP/MD's office, a boardroom, at the printers etc.

For the banks that discourage recruiting, you'll notice the number of "doctors appointments" among the analysts increases 10x during recruiting season

On the gym point, in my experience most analysts don't go during market hours (9am-5pm) and tend to step out around dinner time 530-8pm to workout/run errands etc

 

Oh wow. At the position that I interviewed for though, the analyst said that generally there wouldn't be any down time during the day, so I guess in that particular job I would truly be screwed for PE/HF recruitment.

Re: hitting the gym during the day: I am shocked to hear that analysts are allowed to leave the office for 1-2 hours during the day to hit the gym?! That would be very strange at my current job (unless you use your lunch hour)

 
crazi4ib:

Oh wow. At the position that I interviewed for though, the analyst said that generally there wouldn't be any down time during the day, so I guess in that particular job I would truly be screwed for PE/HF recruitment.

There is no such thing as an IB shop where analysts don't have time to recruit. Even when GS explicitly barred analysts for recruiting and actively fired those who admitted to recruiting, many GS analysts continued to interview.

Re: hitting the gym during the day: I am shocked to hear that analysts are allowed to leave the office for 1-2 hours during the day to hit the gym?! That would be very strange at my current job (unless you use your lunch hour)

Your job clearly isn't in IB. Most go in the evening.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

Some of the best advice I got was to never work at 100% capacity. Unless your MD is about to catch a flight and those comps need to be re-ordered stat to make sure the company doesn't "find out" they have the highest leverage of their peers, keep it 90-95%. Then when recruiting season hits you have a 5-10 hour buffer to crush an investment memo.

 

A) not until final employment verification B) It is a no-no. That's confidential/copyrighted stuff. Honor that. You can share work samples but omit details, you don't want a lawsuit on your back. C) Absolutely, are you kidding me. This internship is the best thing happened to you, capitalize on it. (don't make it obvious) and don't tell your colleagues.

 

Honestly, don't sweat it and ask the team you are interviewing with if there are any alternative days. I think the best policy is to be upfront with the group you are interviewing with, tell them you might have some critical deal-related work that might pop up, and manage their expectations.

 
SSAnalyst:
Honestly, don't sweat it and ask the team you are interviewing with if there are any alternative days. I think the best policy is to be upfront with the group you are interviewing with, tell them you might have some critical deal-related work that might pop up, and manage their expectations.

Thanks...problem is my team is shorthanded the whole week that they want to interview me. The only other day that would work (for me) is that "optional" day, but I feel like that will put me at a disadvantage if not everyone with whom I'd normally meet is in.

 
OhHi:
Call in sick

Can't -- I already did what I thought was the prudent thing by giving a heads-up that I was hoping to take the day off. And do you even work in banking? I can count on one hand the number of times anybody in my group has called in sick.

To clarify, the situation is as follows: I asked a VP if I could take off. He said okay as long as I'm covered off. There are a couple other analysts around but a couple key junior and mid-level people are out so they're already kind of busy covering off for them. Asking them to take my work for the day on top of what they have is, to be honest, a little unfair and will be viewed as such.

 

2 vacation weeks? seems like a smaller sized company because the major ones give 4-5.

Having said that though, there are a couple of approaches you can take (1st hand experience): 1) schedule for fridays - many consulting firms have a "work from the office/home on fridays" policy. 2) schedule interviews for mondays - tell your manager that you woke up sick on monday morning, and that you will fly out on tuesday.

Make sure that you are transparent with the company that you are interviewing with - they will understand your workload and try to accommodate you.

Good luck.

 

all the analysts and associates that i work with are fully aware of my future plans, as i have told them what they are; in fact, i set these expectations at the beginning of my job. and they're not idiots right? they figure you're most likely gonna leave after 2-3 years, so why would they mind? besides, don't you have to tell your references anyway, for sg and search one?

 

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