Bluffing a Job Offer
I think I wrote a thread about this earlier. When is it ok to bluff about a pending job offer to get the employer to make an offer to you? Company has been dragging its feet but has constantly come back to me to say to "hold tight" the hiring manager hasn't made a final decision yet.
I won't bluff an offer especially if they are stating hold tight the hiring manger hasn't made a final decision yet. How long has it been? Based on past experience when they use that line it usually means they are going with another candidate if it has been a few weeks.
It sounds like you are saying two things. It has been 2 weeks, but HR just came back to me and said the hiring manager hasn't had time to make a decision yet, and they are still interested. So what is the worst and best case I bluff an offer was made, at least something informal by an old boss over coffee?
Chances are that you will make the firm feel like they're not special, hence they may not want to actually extend you an offer because of that. If you do end up leveraging through a "bluff", which I don't recommend, then for god sakes don't be too specific...
TLDR; Continue to show interest and wait it out.
2 weeks usually means you're good enough to keep on the line but not good enough to outright hire. They are definitely still interviewing. I would bluff and say you have another offer you have to respond to but prefer this opportunity. They will have to respond. Best case you get the job, worst case you lose a job you never had. Keep us updated.
I had my final interview October 2nd and was told i would her the decision back this week of next week. HR already said they are working to extend an offer. I have no idea weather I'm on hold or what... lol
I just always assumed that bluffing an offer would never get you a job it would just get you an answer sooner. Going two weeks without an decision is never a good sign.
I mean it's only 3 days, but I get what you're saying.
What type of job is it?
If you feel they are dragging you along, you should instead put your effort into finding an additional opportunity rather than stressing about trying to force their hand with a bluff. They will just cut you loose if you try this. You never know what could happen, and you should leave the opportunity open if it's still open. But I agree with others that it sounds like you may not be at the top of their list of candidates.
I know this is off the topic of the thread... but how come your post says 10/8/17 at 1:00AM? Is that because you are from Australia, or AndyLouis frontpaged/edited it from a different time zone?
It just made me really curious...
it's when we schedule a post to hit the frontpage sometime in the future
I wouldn't bluff. If they force you to reveal your hand you can be put in a bad spot if they fact-check you.
how would they fact check you?
exactly, how would they fact check, i say go for the bluff
They may know someone who knows someone. The industry is small. You'd be surprised.
I get where OP's head is at here. He thinks bluffing an offer may force the company to decide whether they want to cease their process to extend an offer to him or decide to continue to interview knowing they will lose on this candidate.
I think in this case its best for OP to look for other opportunities. He's had the interview at this point and done all he can. Just needs to wait it out and see what they decide. Perhaps they've had a promising list of candidates they want to meet before making an offer.
I am in the same boat with a couple of interviews I have gone through and on that 2 week mark as well. I'm just trying to make sure I am actively pursuing worthwhile opportunities while waiting to hear back and not hanging my hat on any previous interviews.
I think it only makes sense to try and accelerate the process & force a decision when you truly have another offer that you are seriously considering. I've done this once when given an exploding offer and asked another company I was interviewing with for an accelerated process. Ended up hearing that I was their #2 guy and most likely they'll close the #1 guy so went with the alternative offer.
This is going to be unpopular, but the answer is it's always ok to bluff.
Just recognize that bluffing is inherently risky, so know what your next steps are if things go sideways.
What if the company legitimately can't speed up the hiring process? Someone who needs to approve the hiring decision might be out or they might have more candidates to interview. The average time it takes to a fill a role these days is over a month. It might not be that the company just isn't that into you, it might be that they're just not into anyone and are ok taking their sweet time filing the role.
What will happen is that your fake deadline will come up and you'll have to pretend like you rejected the other offer (if it wasn't a good offer, why were you waving it in front of their face in the first place?) or close the door on an opportunity that, for all you know, would have turned into an offer a few days after the fake deadline.
Someone please correct me if they have evidence going against this, but based on my experiences, companies aren't going to base their decision on whether or not you have competing offers. When people end up with multiple offers that they're able to leverage, it's more of a reflection of what it was about them that led them to get multiple offers rather than the multiple offers themselves.
There were a lot of good answers in this. Foremost was always keep your wheels spinning. That said I really just wanted to hear what everyone's thought were on the subject.
I ended up not getting the job, but HR ended up actually being really great throughout the process(a rarity).
Should've bluffed bruh.
I would go ahead and bluff. It forces them to show their cards and if they think they are getting put into a power trip and therefore reject you, then they really didn't want you there that badly anyway. But aside from that, like other posters have mentioned, look for other opportunities elsewhere.
I'm a big fan of flaunting value and making myself look wanted during the interview process.
My first job out of college, I was very confident in my final round interview, but it was taking a while for the firm to extend an offer. At the beginning of the process, I let the recruiter know that I was interviewing with several firms (true, but they were shit firms) with a job offer already secured (true, but this job was way better) so that I could pull strings later. After I deemed it taking too long, I wrote an email to the talent manager, saying that I had a pending offer from a competitive firm (because why the fuck not?) Almost immediately, he sent an email asking if he could call me that day and at that point, probabilistically, I knew I had it. I took the call as though I was seriously considering the competitive offer (non-existent), he asked me how much they were offering and I threw out one of the higher numbers from Management Consulted. The talent manager threw me a signing bonus and a very competitive salary.
I'm actually going through a recruiting cycle right now where I've been getting blown up on LinkedIn with a few kind of interesting offers, but there is one that I am particularly interested in. They've agreed to give me a look and although I am technically qualified, I lack tenure compared to who I'll be competing with. Since I'm actually quite comfortable in my current role, I've taken the liberty to flaunt value because I'm not sure how high I am on the talent manager's list of candidates. I've written an email to the hiring manager detailing all interviews that I am currently taking with role and company respectively (4 in total). The tone of the email and general message was that, "I want to keep the theme of honesty and transparency rolling". I have rapport with the particular talent manager, he likes me and although this move could be misconstrued negatively (un-professional, blatant tactic), I don't have anything to lose. Throughout our engagement, I have been the consummate professional which gives me enough goodwill to pull this. Also, he views me more as "Computer Technical" and is therefore, less likely to deem this as an interpersonal tactic given the stigma. This whole exercise goes wayyyy deeper than this, but I could fill up paragraphs of weighing variables and I'd rather WSO not think I'm a sociopath.
This whole strategy is extremely subjective to your exact situation with a ton of variables mixed-in. You're basically gambling on your EQ, situational-awareness and self-awareness. To me, this was a calculated risk that I'm willing to take to strengthen my candidacy.
Play the game, but know how to play.
Making boss moves
Is it ever okay to lie? If you ask me, there are probably many consequences to that action and they always get you. You know what they say:
Karma is a b****
Karma swings both ways, though. If a HR department is non-transparent and/or jerking someone around, then you could say that they have it coming to them and that you've already received your bad karma from being treated that way, and they are getting it back to them with you bluffing.
Sure, that's true, but at this point I think it's just a matter of personal opinion and how you are viewing the whole process. I thought Dedline had a pretty solid case.
Yeah, Fitch Ratings did this with me. reached out to me twice, HR told me they were advancing me on to the next round and would call me back in the next few days to schedule a superday. then they dropped the ball, the team never even hearing about it until I backchanneled an inquiry. After the first time, I just wrote them off. I only took the second time as a courtesy for a friend. They did it again. and it's only a f**king rating agency. I get when recruiters pull this crap, most of them couldn't model a paper airplane. but when HR strings you along like this I think "this is either incompetence, laziness or a lack of fear for their own job security." When you can spam resumes out through LinkedIn, they can always pretend like they actually went through all 2,000 applications and their bosses rarely find out when they screw up a candidate unless it's at a really senior level.
Aaah... The old "2 wrongs make a right" argument. It's funny how lying and cheating become ok when we're the ones doing it, but it's unacceptable when someone does it to us.
It really depends on what level you're at:
If you are a Director, or its equivalents (PM, MI, etc.), or higher (MD, SVP, etc.), usually it's the firm trying to steal you away from your current employer because you have something they want or need, whether a skill-set or a book of business. In that case, a bluff will typically result in a reaction.
If you're on the analyst/entry level, firms don't care all that much, even though they should, because talent is talent, whether developed or not. 'Lots of fish in the sea' is the prevalent attitude because there are a dozen others (or more) in line right behind you for the same job.
Same as poker: when you're willing to have your bluff called.
Isn't this exactly what made Jeffrey Chiang a pariah (among other things)? If you're going to do it, as others have said, be prepared for the consequences. It's probably best to remain vague at first so the firm can't try to snoop around and see if you're lying. Finance is a small world. If they put you on the spot and ask for specifics, you'll be in a tricky situation. I guess at that point you can either fake it til you make it, in which case you better hope that HR doesn't know anyone at the competing firm you just name-dropped, or, refuse to tell them, which, depending on how you go about it, could immediately signal bullshit and they'll see right through your little ruse. Good luck.
Best way to go about is to tell them that you are in in late stages of the process with another firm are anticipating a verbal offer within the week, but don't want to make any decisions before hearing back since you're incredibly interested in their opportunity.
i was put on hold for almost 2 months, keep saying a decision hasnt been made yet. turns out they were waiting for the preferred candidate (from UK) to accept or reject. if he rejected or for some reason couldnt make it back before the start date, I, or another candidate, would have landed it
Never...unless you're ok with being a liar. You can try to pretty it up by playing with the wording ("bluff"), but it's lying, and your integrity is questionable at best. Somehow, lying is ok when there's a buck to be made? You're on a bad path. People don't like to hear the truth when it's calling them out, so I'm sure that there will be plenty of monkey crap thrown this way, but lying doesn't magically become ok when it's you who's doing it.
One thought I had when reading this- we've done this to candidates- they were our first choice but the HR holdup and FTE allocation had some kinks to workout which caused the delay. We would routinely say that the hiring manager didn't make a decision yet and to hold on because we weren't going to reveal too much about the innner company workings. So I would reccomend to hold tight and take them at their word.
In the same position here and would appreciate some advice:
Three rounds of interviews (9 in total) all went pretty well. (I was the first of the final 3 candidates to be interviewed so I assumed I would be in for a bit of a wait) When I followed up with my interviewer, he said I should hear back in a few days from HR once final decision has been made.
Received a phonecall from HR 7 working days later saying that the team had not had a chance to sit down yet to discuss the final 3 candidates as they are super busy preparing for a trip. HR apologised for the delay and checked to see if I was still keen on the role.
This was last Thursday and she said it could take a week to hear back.. It's been a week and I am really tempted to bluff. Just to know one way or the other. I'm not sure I buy that they haven't managed to find 20 minutes to get together.
The final interviews were pretty much fit focused so how on earth is an extremely busy MD going to remember a great deal about the interviews weeks later?
I'm not sure they are still interviewing since there was three rounds of interviews (9 in total) and I made it to the final three.. The advert is no longer live now and the team seems far too busy to continue interviewing. At the first round stage, they interviewed 15 for one spot. So it's hard to know what the deal is.
I regret lying (Originally Posted: 11/05/2007)
So I got an offer from an ibank and moving to final rounds with another, but I told both that I got offers from my summer internship which I infact didnt (but it wasnt in banking, it was in mezz debt fund). I really regret this decision, what should I do? Spill the beans?
Not if you want the offers.
What's done is done. Move on.
But when they do a background check, won't they find out?
Fact: You already lied.
You have one option to get out of this clean. Provided you are on good terms with the people you interned with (and didn't get an offer), you can call them and let them know what you've done. Maybe they actually liked you, and couldn't give you an offer because they cut back recruiting. For all you know, they'll understand the situation and vouch for you.
Otherwise, you'd probably be best off coming clean, lies tend to snowball. If you are a paranoid type, it will be especially painful.
the background check will consist of confirming that you had a job there and double-check the dates of employment. and dont fail that drug test.
while i don't think lying is a good thing, whats done is done and just move on. its not like you lied about your education or gpa - thats worse bc that can be checked through transcripts.
put it this way, you didnt get a FT offer bc you lied about getting an offer from your previous internship. you got an offer bc you obviously did something right such as exhibiting a fundamental financial knowledge and a good fit with the firm.
dont stress.
In future interviews, should I stick with the story then? Will I not get any offers if I tell the truth and say I did not get an offer? I didn't know people were so anal like that.
For future interviews do what you think is right. That's up to you. For these two banks stick to your story if you want the offer. A background check can't possibly turn up whether or not you got the offer, unless the interviewers call your previous employers.
These are really things you should weigh internally.
You're gonna have a very hard time getting an offer if you tell them the place you interned at didn't give you an offer. Do whatever you think is best for you, just weigh the risks in advance.
You might not get caught this time, but be aware of the risks of the future, and don't do it again. Not to sound cliche, but your reptuation is the only thing that you have going in as an analyst. It will surprise you by how small Wall Street is and how much people at different banks talk with each other on a semi-regular basis. I interned at a boutique this summer (the founder came from a top BB) and the founder actually told me his friends at two or 3 different BB's that I applied to asked for his opinion on me via e-mail or phone. Keep this in mind.
You don't regret lying. Don't confuse yourself/us with that bullshit. You don't want to be caught. There's a major difference.
An analysts having a reputation? Please. An analysts reputation can be summed up in a few words: gets work done on time without mistakes or doesn't.
Haha, beaker goes on every single thread to look for a "I lied about" topic and always says the same thing: "Analysts are nothing, no one cares about you and therefore you have no reputation." .....Lame
_
now you have to bear the consequences..if they do background checks on whether you did the summer, it's only a very small step to finding out whether you got an offer.
I am not being unsympathetic, but if people can get away with lying about their GPA, summer jobs, leadership positions etc., isn't it unfair to the rest of us who actually worked hard to get the stuff on our resumes?
And oh yes, as an interviewer myself, I definitely do check summer offers.
I agree with you. I'm sure that there are a lot of individuals who told the truth about not having an offer after the summer. One does not deserve an offer if he/she lies.
I don't think you should tell them. This can either go one of two ways if you don't say anything. They don't find out, you might get the offer. They find out and you still have a slim chance they don't take it seriouesly. What's done is done. Saying something will most likly make make your situation wroths than it is, because you still are making your first impression. Good Luck
P.S. I do agree with Danny_ish...
P.S. I do agree with Danny_ish...
It is unclear whether or not you are sorry. If you are that is a good indicator of an ethical individual who has a chance at not allowing the pursuit of personal goals to slowly destroy character. Reputation is important but only if it is a true reflection of goodness.
Agreed. Do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because you fear the risks. There is a huge distinction.
If you fess up about it, they could do one of two things: 1) shrug it off since it's not really a BIG issue, or 2) ding you for being dishonest. There isn't really a way for them to verify, unless one of the bankers actually knew the group you worked at. I wouldn't say anything about it unless it's asked in the future, but just remember to think before you speak.
Interview Bluffing (Originally Posted: 07/27/2007)
When asked during an IB interview if you got an offer already from another firm, could you just bluff and say you did without the interviewer ever being any the wiser?
sure
no
explain yourself laxn
my only caution is (i dont know how often they do this), but HR people always have other HR friends at other firms and its' pretty easy to validate whether or not you're lying. Although, that would take a great deal of effort, and I'm not sure they'd be willing to do it..but you don't want to be the first they test out.
What are you going to say when they reply "Oh, that's great, which firm, which group, oh is Mr. X still the MD in charge of that division?"
have you guys ever lied about where you got offers from (to friends or employers) (Originally Posted: 02/05/2011)
Not a serious thread, just curious haha
I definitely suspect some of my friends are lying about the places they're "turning down." I mean, you'd have to REALLY love the culture at CS to be turning down GS IBD...
Nope, never. If your friends are so concerned about image that they are already lying to appear more "prestigious," well then they've got a long road ahead of them in life.
I've never done it, it's not really worth it really is it. I do however know someone who was telling everyone that he turned down Goldman M&A. I just went with it.
I turned down harvard for illinois. the honors program is just the best.
Hell no.
Yes, Jeffery Chiang
Semi-related, but I actually know quite a few kids who lie in interviews when asked "What other firms are you interviewing with?". Not as risky as lying about offers, but still...
I think there is a difference between embellishing a little, a la to interviewers. But a whole different level when lying to try and appear prestigious
I definitely have some friends who have "turned down" some interviews or offers from pretty prestigious places before that firm had even had a superday or extended offers. I think it's funny that they assume everyone else knows as little as they do about the interview timelines of each bank.
Yea, never even felt the need to lie to friends or family about not getting an offer, etc.
Anyone who lies to their "friends" about that kind of thing must have some shitty "friends." Or the lier is just a loser. I can see the purpose of lying to interviewers, although I still don't do it. Risky move if you do. I could also see people lying to girls (if for some reason that came up) at a bar or something. Again not my style, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
I have lied to friends about NOT getting offers. Especially if they went through the same interview process as me.
Man, I didn't get it. You? :: Yeah I did.
I'm sure others have had this happen...
I've never lied in my life
I'll second that MrV ...
Same happened to me and had pretty much all the kids from my programs wondering how I could have gotten a summer internship with my grades and my EC. At first I was feeling like shit but then I just had to tell myself 'Whatever ... I played with the hand I was given and if they are not happy f***' em'
Never lied about offers either because I've never been asked about that in interviews and my friends are not into IB at all (which is pretty cool actually).
Come on guys, everyone stretches the truth a little bit. I have never met anyone who said that he was unable to solve a brain teaser. Some people are obviously lying, otherwise banks wouldn't use brain teasers. If I had gotten no offer I would have come up with some lame excuse on how I realized banking was for tools.
I'm sure everyone does stretch the truth in a lot of aspects of life, but I wouldn't take the risk of doing it concerning offers. You never know if the person you're talking to/interviewing with is going to know someone at the bank you're talking about and have a way of catching you in even the smallest lie. The gain that you get from telling such a useless lie isn't worth the risk of embarrassment that would come with getting called on it.
lying as in getting GS LA and saying you got GS, without specifying the location? lying as in getting MS banking risk management and saying you got MS without specifying the group?
Ambition, that's not lying. MS risk and MS M&A are both divisions of MS. So it's just saying the truth, and if they don't ask any further you're good to go. I doubt that you're innovative enough to make it as an investment banker.
excel and powerpoint requires heck of a lota innovation you're right that's why you're a banker and not a trader
No but i know some a few of my friends that i can tell were BS'n about some of their offers.......I'm real good at reading through the Bull. BUT i'm not the type of person to call somebody out, i just play along with them.
[had to take down the story about the non-investment banker getting high before his drug test because he was afraid it would come back to bite him in the ass]
the worst are those kids who are really cocky and post their recruitment statuses as their facebook statuses
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