Wanting my father who already has "enough" to be more ambitious...

My father started off as an analyst in the late-1970s at what is now considered a top BB. He rapidly advanced all the way up to partner and was ultimately there for well over two decades (with increasing responsibility and comp each year), before deciding to leave banking (somewhat on a whim) to become CEO of a mid-cap (~$5bn) publicly traded company. When he left that he joined a reputable UMM PE shop as a partner (not a founding partner) where he has been at for a little over a decade. 

He has done well in PE and is essentially the number 2 guy (executive vice chairman) in the firm after the founder, but to be clear, the founder is the one who calls the shots at the end of the day. This has resulted in plenty of missed opportunities. For example, when my father first joined, he thought it would be a good idea to expand the firm's business into real estate (among others); however, the founder of the firm was simply not interested... this resulted in huge, missed opportunities that firms such as BX eventually capitalized on. My father genuinely believes that if the founder was more flexible with the firm's strategy and they were able to do real estate and other vetoed deals, the firm could have grown into a mega fund.

During a recent family gathering I said to my father point-blank: "Why don't you just leave and start your own firm?"

He immediately dismissed the idea: "Oh, it's too late for that..."

Aargh... infuriating... My father is in his mid-60s (which is obviously not young, but there have certainly been some PE guys who started relatively later in life) and most importantly he is in good health. He has a great track record as an investor, an incredible rolodex, and very good relationships with many potential institutional LPs. I could be underestimating the difficulty of getting a first fund off the ground, but I genuinely believe he could (relatively) painlessly raise a $Bn for an inaugural fund if he wanted to.

How would I get him to change his mind?

Of course, by any reasonable measure, my father has had a successful career and he has made more than enough money... but is it strange for me to want my father to be more ambitious?

All I hope is that years from now when my father is on his deathbed, he will be able to proudly sing along to Frank Sinatra: "I've lived a life that's full. I traveled each and ev'ry way highway. And more, much more than this. I did it my way."

 

Yes it’s strange that you want a wildly successful man to be more “ambitious”, but I guess you’d rather focusing on making your dad work hard in his golden years than you actually focusing your illustrious career - how close are you to starting your own fund?

 

The thing is my father wants to keep working. He doesn't see himself retiring and playing golf during his "golden years." I've asked him about retirement and he's said he loves what he does and intends to keep working as long as he can.

If that's the case, why do it working at a firm that has some other guy calling the shots? There might be significant added stress with running your own fund, but I don't see that outweighing the substantial upside of being in control of your own destiny.

 

You are missing the key point here, which is that your father doesn't want to do it. Running your own fund is EXTREMELY stressful, he likely is mostly in control of his own destiny at this age even if they do miss a few deals, and your dad probably has 5-10 years max left of working even if he does love his job. There is way more to life than having your own fund, clearly he's been successful and enjoys where he is.

This sounds more like your dream than his. And I think you saying he's not ambitious is just downright disrespectful, honestly.

 
[Comment removed by mod team]
 

Is your father happy with his life? Would starting his own firm bring fulfillment and happiness? Put in another way, is him not being the CEO leading to burnout, discontent, and sadness in a meaningful fashion? These are personal questions for him that he might not even talk to you about but given how successful he's been, he might not find any incremental fulfillment nor happiness in starting his own operation. In fact, he might get to a worse mental state. Being a committed founder is more stressful in scope and scale than being the #2 guy. I would not want my father in his mid sixties starting his own firm at that age, especially a financial services company. I'd literally worry about his health. The fact that he doesn't want to start his own operation should tell you it's not your place to push him to do more. He's citing age as the reason why but it might be due to potential stress and his willingness to handle more at his stage of life rather than just a reference to some arbitrary age where it's too late to start a company. Obviously you know him best but just something to think about. 
 

My father is his own boss and but the amount of stress that it's put on him has been considerable. And like you, I wanted my dad to do more because I believed in his abilities until I realized that the stress in growing and scaling his business would equate to cutting his lifespan. He also does not care as much about expansion anymore, so it's not my place to change his mind.

Thank you for sharing this.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but why does this matter to you?  Is it because you want him to stand up a firm for you to inherit?

Also, implying a lack of ambition seems a bit disingenuous based on the man's career... maybe a lack of relative-ambition? but even that feels wrong.  It's not like he's out of work pissing away the family money at the dog track.

Sorry to sound negative here but, because I can't relate in the slightest, it does sound strange. 

 

Grass isn’t always greener.

The risk, energy, and stress it requires to start your own fund is substantial. Your father likely is more risk averse or simply doesn’t think it’s worth it. Maybe the number one guy takes a larger burden of the risk/ stress and your father while irritated by decisions he sometimes makes acknowledges he’s ok being #2.

For context, have a similar situation, where my dad could raise a multi-billion fund if he wanted to, but he frequently laughs about his friends that have done that because they are now beholden to their work until they die to the detriment of their personal relationships. His words are, “not fair to me or your mother, sometimes I wonder what if, but life has trade offs and I’m certain if I did start a fund I would wonder what if my life had been simpler.” At 70 do you really want to be experiencing extreme stress of being “the guy” or what you rather be advising and have less risk in your life. Additionally, at a certain point I’d ask, “for what?” What’s the point of raising your own fund? Sounds like he’s well off financially, so the only reason to raise a fund would really be to just have bragging rights/ get off on the ego trip of the achievement or to avoid having to deal with the #1 guy. 

 

Grass isn't always greener.

The risk, energy, and stress it requires to start your own fund is substantial. Your father likely is more risk averse or simply doesn't think it's worth it. Maybe the number one guy takes a larger burden of the risk/ stress and your father while irritated by decisions he sometimes makes acknowledges he's ok being #2.

For context, have a similar situation, where my dad could raise a multi-billion fund if he wanted to, but he frequently laughs about his friends that have done that because they are now beholden to their work until they die to the detriment of their personal relationships. His words are, "not fair to me or your mother, sometimes I wonder what if, but life has trade offs and I'm certain if I did start a fund I would wonder what if my life had been simpler." At 70 do you really want to be experiencing extreme stress of being "the guy" or what you rather be advising and have less risk in your life. Additionally, at a certain point I'd ask, "for what?" What's the point of raising your own fund? Sounds like he's well off financially, so the only reason to raise a fund would really be to just have bragging rights/ get off on the ego trip of the achievement or to avoid having to deal with the #1 guy. 

Appreciate you sharing this personal response. Thank you.

 

Put another way too—if you are creating your own fund at 60+ pretty slim chance you can babysit your grandkids when your kids need the help or enjoy your last moments on earth lol. Achieving things to some degree is certainly fulfilling, but google “people’s biggest regrets on their deathbed” and the top result is this:

  1. “I wish I’d had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.”
  2. “I wish I hadn’t worked so hard.”
  3. “I wish I had the courage to express my feelings.”
  4. “I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends.”
  5. “I wish I had let myself be happier.”

Sounds like starting your own fund at an older age is almost the best way possible to ensure 2,4, and 5.

 
Most Helpful

Why do you want him to want to build a business from scratch? 

One lesson life has thoroughly taught me is that it's important to care about people's happiness. I have found that it's really easy to mistake that for my idea of what's good for them.

Your father has been incredibly successful. Vertical progression at a large investment bank, CEO of a public company, and vice chairman of an established investment firm. He's earned more than all except maybe some tens of thousands of people. He's seen how hard work pays off, and he knows intimately well the toll that work takes on health, friendships, family relationships, and hobbies or intellectual interests.

What's he going to gain from pursuing a new fund launch? There are legitimately only three possibilities I can think of: money, "prestige" or status, and satisfaction.

The marginal utility of more money is negligible at this point. You probably already have vacation homes, jet ownership or membership, trusts for younger family members, and the litany of other markers of profound success. 

Prestige is a shortsighted thing to base decisions off of.

For one, it's fleeting. You might be flying high one moment, and the next find yourself way outside the spotlight for reasons entirely beyond your control. Maybe you're the best oil and gas investor ever. The early 00's were great. Shit, all of a sudden half the world (whether right or wrong, that's not the point I'm making here) thinks you're raping the planet because of their views on climate science. Maybe you co-founded a hedge fund. Things go great for 15 years. Your co-founder who's more of the face of the firm gets wrapped up in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Your LPs shy away from the logo, assets start drying up, and your business withers. Fuck. 

Two, it's way more limited than you think. Imagine you're the literal Chad people joke about on this forum. You did two years at GS TMT or PJT, then you do two years at Blackstone, your MBA at HBS, and join a place like Baupost or Elliott or whatever. You've killed yourself to jump through the narrowest hoops, and each time, you come up aces at the 'best' possible place to land.

Guess what you win? The number of people who even know the name of the gold-plated hedge fund you work at is ... tens of thousands, maybe? There's no flicker of recognition in the eyes of 99% of people you say it to at a bar, restaurant, class reunion, family event, charity event, and so on. It's not like you're setting yourself up for thunderous applause from a crowd at the Park Avenue Armory. Prestige is wrapping yourself in something that you're just about the only person can see.

Satisfaction is trickier. It's different for every person. 

Some people love country music. I can't stand it. I remember when I learned Goldenvoice does an event the same size as Coachella in the exact same place they produce Coachella on the weekend after Coachella. Shit blew my mind, and then I had to laugh at myself, because of course there's an event that size for people who like that thing that I happen to dislike. 

There are some people who might love, really love the challenge of articulating an investment thesis and vision for establishing and scaling an investment franchise to hundreds of institutional investors ... or the ordeal of recruiting, hiring, and managing a team of hungry, hard-charging, sharp-elbowed people with undiagnosed personality disorders ... developing a reputation or brand from scratch with service providers, peer firms, and the seller universe amidst the melee of market competition for quality assets ... and everything else that goes with building a firm from scratch.

With your father, there might be some element of 'been there, done that' where he knows exactly how the sausage is made and decided that while he'll still eat red meat, his body feels better with a pescatarian bias to his diet.

I heard an entirely different thing than you did in his answer. It sounds like you think he lacks ambition. I think he values the things in life that are priceless. This makes sense if you stop to think about the position he's at in life.

I have been fortunate to enjoy such success that I don't have to do anything ever again. At this point, anything I do is because I feel driven or called to it, or I find it really interesting or enjoyable. My best days are where I get to spend time with someone or on something I enjoy.

I can't imagine being double this age and signing up for the stress of a new fund launch.

Going back to my point about happiness, you may find that there's a lot you potentially overlooked about his value system. He probably cares less about anything related to his career and more about you, what you're learning and doing, what you're seeing and experiencing, and the same for everyone else in your family.

Talk to him. Enjoy your time with him. Learn what matters to him, and interact with him around that. 

This is the difference between walking in to someone going "I want you to do this so I brought you that" and saying "tell me what matters to you", then returning to say "I found this for you, how cool!"

I'm happy for your father for the success he's been able to create for your family.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 
APAE

Why do you want him to want to build a business from scratch? 

One lesson life has thoroughly taught me is that it's important to care about people's happiness. I have found that it's really easy to mistake that for my idea of what's good for them.

Your father has been incredibly successful. Vertical progression at a large investment bank, CEO of a public company, and vice chairman of an established investment firm. He's earned more than all except maybe some tens of thousands of people. He's seen how hard work pays off, and he knows intimately well the toll that work takes on health, friendships, family relationships, and hobbies or intellectual interests.

What's he going to gain from pursuing a new fund launch? There are legitimately only three possibilities I can think of: money, "prestige" or status, and satisfaction.

The marginal utility of more money is negligible at this point. You probably already have vacation homes, jet ownership or membership, trusts for younger family members, and the litany of other markers of profound success. 

Prestige is a shortsighted thing to base decisions off of.

For one, it's fleeting. You might be flying high one moment, and the next find yourself way outside the spotlight for reasons entirely beyond your control. Maybe you're the best oil and gas investor ever. The early 00's were great. Shit, all of a sudden half the world (whether right or wrong, that's not the point I'm making here) thinks you're raping the planet because of their views on climate science. Maybe you co-founded a hedge fund. Things go great for 15 years. Your co-founder who's more of the face of the firm gets wrapped up in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Your LPs shy away from the logo, assets start drying up, and your business withers. Fuck. 

Two, it's way more limited than you think. Imagine you're the literal Chad people joke about on this forum. You did two years at GS TMT or PJT, then you do two years at Blackstone, your MBA at HBS, and join a place like Baupost or Elliott or whatever. You've killed yourself to jump through the narrowest hoops, and each time, you come up aces at the 'best' possible place to land.

Guess what you win? The number of people who even know the name of the gold-plated hedge fund you work at is ... tens of thousands, maybe? There's no flicker of recognition in the eyes of 99% of people you say it to at a bar, restaurant, class reunion, family event, charity event, and so on. It's not like you're setting yourself up for thunderous applause from a crowd at the Park Avenue Armory. Prestige is wrapping yourself in something that you're just about the only person can see.

Satisfaction is trickier. It's different for every person. 

Some people love country music. I can't stand it. I remember when I learned Goldenvoice does an event the same size as Coachella in the exact same place they produce Coachella on the weekend after Coachella. Shit blew my mind, and then I had to laugh at myself, because of course there's an event that size for people who like that thing that I happen to dislike. 

There are some people who might love, really love the challenge of articulating an investment thesis and vision for establishing and scaling an investment franchise to hundreds of institutional investors ... or the ordeal of recruiting, hiring, and managing a team of hungry, hard-charging, sharp-elbowed people with undiagnosed personality disorders ... developing a reputation or brand from scratch with service providers, peer firms, and the seller universe amidst the melee of market competition for quality assets ... and everything else that goes with building a firm from scratch.

With your father, there might be some element of 'been there, done that' where he knows exactly how the sausage is made and decided that while he'll still eat red meat, his body feels better with a pescatarian bias to his diet.

I heard an entirely different thing than you did in his answer. It sounds like you think he lacks ambition. I think he values the things in life that are priceless. This makes sense if you stop to think about the position he's at in life.

I have been fortunate to enjoy such success that I don't have to do anything ever again. At this point, anything I do is because I feel driven or called to it, or I find it really interesting or enjoyable. My best days are where I get to spend time with someone or on something I enjoy.

I can't imagine being double this age and signing up for the stress of a new fund launch.

Going back to my point about happiness, you may find that there's a lot you potentially overlooked about his value system. He probably cares less about anything related to his career and more about you, what you're learning and doing, what you're seeing and experiencing, and the same for everyone else in your family.

Talk to him. Enjoy your time with him. Learn what matters to him, and interact with him around that. 

This is the difference between walking in to someone going "I want you to do this so I brought you that" and saying "tell me what matters to you", then returning to say "I found this for you, how cool!"

I'm happy for your father for the success he's been able to create for your family.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write this up.

I like how you framed this in terms of money, prestige/status, and satisfaction.

I fully agree with your point on money and mostly agree with your take on satisfaction (though you give my father too much credit!)

Where I somewhat disagree with you is your take on prestige/status. Yes, prestige/status can be ephemeral and it can limited, but it does open up doors.

Actually, prestige/status is not really the right term - "access" or "power" might be more apt.

Suppose someone like Steve Schwarzman visits France, you can bet that he is going to be able to book a 1-on-1 meeting with Macron no problem. If my father visited France, the best he could do on his own is probably get a meeting with Macron's chief of staff or perhaps some other minister.

Now, you may say does it really matter if he can't get access to the most important/most powerful people? It may sound absurd, but for some people it actually does matter. I don't know if it matters to my father, but I distinctly remember my father once making a self-deprecating joke (I forget about what exactly), but the gist of it was that he "does not get special treatment" because he is a "nobody."

 

You're welcome, although thankfully it didn't take me long. I've got this powerful voice-to-text thing, so it's more saying than writing for me.

I'm glad to see the engagement you've gotten with this question. It's a cool one. It's also nice to see the way you interact with the perspectives people have shared with you.

You're right that access could be a separate thing from prestige. And I'm fully cognizant that there are limits to what someone can do without being at the truly uppermost echelons of the game. (It does not sound absurd to me, this is a thing I think about quite a bit at this point in my life.)

I think of it as a portfolio maximization exercise. Yes, he could add more access 'points' to his life by starting a new investment firm of his own. But that would invariably come at the cost of 'points' in happiness, mental health, free time, and so on.

And in my (admittedly limited) experience, it's usually the people with the greatest degree of soft power who make the jokes about their lack of it.

I am permanently behind on PMs, it's not personal.
 

It's ironic -- you want your father to be able to sing "I did it my way" on his deathbed.

Yet, you're seeking for him to live his life your way. 

 

He immediately dismissed the idea: "Oh, it's too late for that..."

Could he have instead been talking about how the golden age to start a PE fund is over?

 

Behind every overachieving father there is a tiger son.

JK, in a rush now…will come back to this.

 

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