Number one thing I hate about investment banking: the congratulations you get after pushing an all-nighter to get a book out.
Spent last night (and most of this morning) pushing out an important book for an IPO. This morning, I got a hearty round of high fives and back slaps for my brave and hard work. Lots of 'Good Jobs' for getting a perfect book out the door. Worst one was from the guy that effectively put us in the position where I had to work all night.
Fuck... We shouldn't be celebrating working all night like that was the good bit, we should be looking at what went wrong and why it turned out like that. Rather than me getting a bunch of congratulations, I'd like to see my MD take the fucker that fucked up behind the wood shed and tear a strip off him (you know the meetings, where they go into the breakout room with the glass walls, and everyone pretends not to look). I'd like to hear my MD ask the other bank about how much of their fee they are going to give up since we had to save the day in front of the client.
I fucking hate that when someone, or someones, fuck up a process or a timeline, the person that saves it gets a hearty pat on the back, and 1) there are no repercussions for the senior bankers that fucked it up in the first place, and 2) nobody thinks 'hey, we can learn something from this, and avoid a similar situation in the future'. But I guarantee that every banker here has at least one story of shit going sideways, and a junior, or a team, getting fucked over trying to keep the pile standing. Some of them will even wear it like a badge of honour.
deep breaths, tis the nature of the beast. This was your judgement call when you decided to forgo the buy-side my good sir.
For clarity, I'm not pissed that I worked late, I'm angry about the hypocrisy.
If, as a junior banker you mis-prioritise something and miss a deadline, you're fucked. As a senior banker, you just throw juniors at it until it's fixed... And then we celebrate the juniors' hard work and dedication rather than call out the senior banker for creating the situation in the first place.
It's like when you get an email from the MD on Friday asking for something on Monday, but if you read back through the email chain, he knew about it since Tuesday. I get it that weekends aren't yours, but I'm annoyed that the scenario was either created or exacerbated by the MD's fuck-up.
i definitely agree. I had to run back to my apartment from the gym twice during one workout because the MD asked for revisions and wanted to hear back within next 30mins. they dont notice any dedication or hard work on my part b/c im expected to do it and they could find someone who'd kill to be in my shoes.
I agree. Two weeks ago on a Friday evening, I received an email from my MD asking me to build some models and reports. I had to work over the weekend and pulled all nighters just to find out in the email chain that the MD knew about it 2 weeks prior.
Then on Monday morning at 5am, I had to run back from the Gym to fix some comments.
Why don't you actually join the buy side Jamie_Diamond - same shit happens both ways depending on the MDs and the firm. If you think you won't get shafted in PE to run some potential acquisition for some VP that everyone knows won't get IC approval, you are sorely mistaken. You still work on it because you have no choice. You'll get a deadline of Monday because that's when IC is and you better get your shit ready by then over the weekend. Except as an associate you have no one to review your models etc... because you are supposed to know all your shit. So if shit hits the fan IC will know what a fuck up you have been.
Shit storry overpaid_overworked unfortunately most ass holes gravitate to highly paid jobs and you have to put up with such ass holes.
I'm kind of at the opinion that the buyside dream is just the grass is greener.
One: when you pitch to PE, one of the key items you need to get across is how they answer to IC if shit goes south, because, unless it' a handful of firms that are still 'gunslingers' or a family office, the PM answers to someone, and they are getting more risk adverse by the day.
Two: chatting with a Hedgie buddy of mine, they are getting squeezed... the big funds don't want to give you 50 to put into an investment, they want to give you five, and co-invest 45, so your 2 and 20 is now 1/10 of what it was. And unless you have a legit strategy, and you want to be 'just' a stockpicker, they believe they can hire internally as good or better than you for the same money, and not pay fees.
Nah, I'll stay sellside, because the dream of buyside isn't what it was. At least I still get paid.
It's everywhere.
I feel your pain. My least favorite thing in banking was cooking up all kinds of meaningless analyses just so that we'd look proactive / on top of things.
To the guys throwing monkey shit:
A good friend of mine is VP in Infra at a BB. He pulls an epic late night with some guys from a regional office, they literally finish printing / binding and hand to the MDs walking out the door at 9:00 am. After the meeting, cue all the emails from the MDs congratulating the juniors on what a great job they did. The reality is that despite this being a 'Top Priority' for both teams, the MDs postpone, or can't be bothered to start work on it until it's almost too late, resulting in the late night.
VP sends a request asking to discuss the process to develop the pitch, and what events caused it to be so last minute, in the interest of improving bank processes and avoiding a near failure in the future. As a result, he gets monkey shit thrown at him:
One MD asks "Who the fuck do you think you are?", another one says "If you're afraid of working long hours, maybe banking isn't for you!" etc.. it goes on.
Basically, the culture in banking is that if someone senior fucks up and the result is that some juniors have to overnight to fix it, we applaud the effort and take no view on the MD's fuck up. If anyone wants to evaluate what happened, or dare say, point out that the MD could have started work on this a week earlier, we chuck shit at them for not buying into the culture.
Just the idea that a VP gets shot down for process improvement ... wow. That's the problem though, lots of cannon fodder just lining up to be treated like that, they have no need to change.
kinda hilarious at the BB i interned at and my EB now, without a doubt the VPs work the hardest and hardly have time for their family. I do think it was a bold move of your VP to ask the MD why so last minute. It's reasonable in other industries but in ours you can't question the rain maker.
I completely agree. Though, I believe this problem exists in every industry, not just banking. It's shameful, but common for people in higher positions to take advantage of subordinates, while they themselves work at their own convenience, not truly understanding the difficulty and pressure they place on the people below them.
This is such a destructive process. Though it's easier said than done, fixing this would lead to a better culture and less miserable experiences for junior members.
as a complete outsider to IB, these stories confused me at first (why would this keep happening) but i guess it's a tradition that will continue on, a right of passage of sorts. "we put up with this shit, so you do too" attitude
It was seeing things like this during my IB SA stint that made me turn down my FT offer and forgo IB FT recruiting. The culture can be absolutely draining and miserable for those not able to hand it, and I couldn't.
Going into another industry was quite relieving when I saw that the culture isn't pervasive throughout all of finance or corporate America, just IB. IB sometimes reminds me of Greek life back in college. The juniors have to put up with the shittiness simply because if the senior bankers had to, why shouldn't the juniors?
Dude, this hits way too close to home. The hypocrisy is what gets me as well.
I'm not sure how it is other places but at my MM nobody even bats an eye if you pull an all nighter on a pitch. There are no 'congrats' or 'back slaps'. It's more or less expected that you got it done.
I completely agree with your criticism but AT LEAST you got a thank you. That's the other thing that's terrible about banking - everyone expects you to throw away your life to get a shit pitch out for a company that you'll never win (with or without a thank you)
I guess I'm different, I would be incredibly grateful for a thanks or congratulations (even if it was half hearted). I've frequently pulled all nighters to turn books / material only to receive a: "Hmmm, looks good" or "Nice work" in the morning.
To add to insult to injury, the 'all nighter' is usually the result of some half baked idea to pitch a company outside of our strike zone that has no intention of hiring us.
Or even better: I had just pulled an allnighter.
MD 1 walks in and goes: "oh, did you pull an allnighter? Was MD 2 mean to you again?"
Chuckles and walks his flat feet and Hank Hill ass to his office.
Fuck, feeling the horror stories welling up. One of the worst weeks I've ever had in banking was when we submitted a book for an RFP where we knew it was an outside chance to win, and so one of the MDs got the idea that we'd really impress them so they'd ditch their existing relationship bank.
We put together an entire RAP ("Ratings Analyst Presentation" for the uninitiated) in a week to send over just to prove that we wanted the deal. We blew up our week, our Saturday and our Sunday, MD that was on vacation says he doesn't want to send it in till he's reviewed it. Monday, he sends a round of comments (minor) at 11:00, at 12:00 we got news that we lost to JP. They send the RAP anyway, because we've already done the work, and it might be good for the relationship... Only thing I heard about it was from another MD that was pissed my capacity was taken up on something that wasn't his books.
Ditto. It's always for the effort to look good or impressive in front of your clients and higher ups, ie. personal gains. There are some deals where you will absolutely for sure know that it will go to a competitor due to the solid relationship (with the company owner, CEO, chairman, etc) or deal breaker (big loans at dirt cheap rates, etc). That's the leverage they have as a MD unfortunately...
I think this problem exists for two reasons.
Many MDs were juniors themselves and were treated equally as bad. They have no intention of treating their juniors differently because, in their mind, why should they? They worked the system and climbed the ladder. Others must do likewise or fall out. No one gets special treatment -- it's a self-perpetuating cycle. To some degree it may even be a matter of respect for the effort. You don't put in the effort and/or suffer through the climb, you don't deserve to be MD.
Reality is that unless you're bringing in solid revenue, you don't really matter. Full stop. You can be replaced in a couple of weeks, and on average the bank couldn't care less about you.
Make no mistake, I'm in no way saying this is right. It is what I observed though.
Fact. You can be replaced. Even at the MD level they are breaking between 'Franchise Players' guy that gets the deal because he's part of the bank, and actual rainmakers, re: guys that would get the deal regardless of where they are.
A well known MM paid shit comp one year, and lost c.25% of everyone below MD. Chatting with one of the guys that stayed, and he says "no, this will be good for us next year, because we'll be rewarded for our loyalty...."
Next year, they drop comp even more, because they figured out they don't have to pay, and they can replace everyone that leaves.
So then in your mind, why do you think this lack of accountability seems more prevalent in banking than in other industries? I acknowledge that an such issue is by no means native to only banking, but I don't hear about it being so prevalent in other industries.
It can be similar in consulting, although based on the experience of my friends consulting generally is more tame. Some hedge funds can be worse, believe it or not. Some PE shops (megafunds, some LMM) can have the same environment, if not worse. I've seen guys get crushed at LMM shops in similar ways. Here is the thing: Banking offers a very transparent and methodical progression, in which you, for your age, can make more risk-adjusted money than in almost any other industry. Likewise, exit opps generally are very good or at least offer you significantly better optionality than in other industries. People realize all this and line up to get into banking. What incentive does the industry have to change when at any moment there are 100s of people ready to take your spot?
Have you studied other industries to the extent that you've studied finance and investment banking? Might not be that it's not happening...Just that it's not apparent.
A lot of the business world, especially in this situation, comes down to power and leverage. Unless you have some rare value add that no one else has, or are related to senior management at a client, all “juniors” are replaceable and have little to no leverage, and thus are powerless from being abused. Your four options are a) acquire real leverage, b) be insubordinate, c) depart, or d) acceptance, the final stage of the Stages of Grief
+SB out of sympathy. It's crazy that there's no process / guidelines in place to manage these types of disasters. I would guess at least 90% of such events are completely avoidable... Banks need to modernize (people could make at least as much money and be happier).
Is a good VP in banking that easy to replace? Maybe I'm naive but I've spoken with some really good VPs and some real shit VPs. I know MDs won't be looking over my deals like it's their baby but I know that VP will... because he has to, and because I find it less depressing talking to VPs vs MDs cant stand the old money MDs...
believe or not, i've gone to bat for rockstar VPs internally and we hired them. my partners have more than once told the senior MD they got the business because of his VP (obviously in buttered up way)... but then again i don't play with the bulges... just a middle market monkey
What are the old money MDs like?
I think its important to acknowledge the fact that this problem is not specific to just IB. Sure, the whole staying up all night part probably is. But in my pre-IB experience there was still just as many projects where senior management would have you re-do the same analysis several times over because they either told you wrong the first time, realized once they saw the analysis they wanted something else, or a client had a last minute request. Rarely is there any accountability for this type of behavior because it is simply how work gets done in the real world (especially in client services roles).
Again, this type of stuff is magnified in IB and the hours obviously aren't the same as other types of jobs. But its important to remember that a lot of overarching themes remain the same in almost every other line of work. I think failure to recognize this is what causes a lot of the "grass is greener" mentality.
Having had many similar experiences to the one you described, I can really empathize with you man...got anxiety just reading that... The more fucked up thing about it is that most MDs are so delusional that they won't even consider the fact that they could have done anything to make the lives of their juniors any bit better and their only justification is "guys this is investment banking"
What I hate about working in a bank is that your ass is own by the common shareholders of the institute, who are greedy fuck-ups who put dividend payouts as not a priority for shareholders. The reason behind a successful bank is their underpaid, enthusiastic, customer focused and replaceable hard-working employees, who are being abused by not getting any bonuses this year because of the selfish owners of the board that wants to reap all of the benefits of getting higher compensations for their high-class exotic travels. Hoping to get a decent bonus this year for your excellent performance? No problem, just kindly fill in your appraisal form for your boss to add their remarks so she/he can tell you to finalize it by shoving it up way deep inside your anus to make it legitimately approved. By doing this, you will skip the part of handing it over to the HR so they cannot acknowledge your hard work and will lead you to no promotion.
Look on the bright side. At some banks, you wouldn't even get the "good job."
Not to display a lack of sympathy for the OP and others in this thread (as I have been there as a junior before) - but to play devil's advocate:
Why should anyone make a big production of saving a junior's time? To roll with the "cog in a machine" metaphor, juniors are the smallest cogs in the machine. You have to move more to generate the same movement as any of the other cogs, you spin and wear out faster, and you are the most replaceable by far. I know many here have a psychological complex about the value of their work around here, but realize that even the best juniors are pretty easily replaced.
The senior people, on the other hand (even some of the bad ones), are hard to replace, have specialized knowledge, and bring in the business. Everyone here seems to regard inefficiency as some inexcusable fuck-up of the management that ought to be fixed - have you considered alternatively that there is a certain level of screw-ups and inefficiency that is unavoidable in a business that is driven by small teams earning fat fees? And that part of the job description of a junior is the role of cleaning up when these inevitable inefficiencies come to pass?
Put yourself in your MD's shoes. If you think you have it rough with some Associate calling you constantly about "where's my X", imagine how it is to be an MD with the paying clients calling you constantly with the same question. Everyone has to cut corners at some point or another in this business - maybe the guy fielding the hard questions with the paying customer should pick his battles and we should all realize that "thinking ahead for the junior's sake" is not the best use of his time or energy.
I certainly can sympathize with your frustrations, I've been there many times. But, all do respect, you're a VP and have been playing this game for a while; you know these sr. guys are self serving assholes who view jr. deal team members as an expendable commodity. It's nature of the beast / comes with the job to be treated like shit. Ya know?
My name's Matt. I spent 7 years in the Marine Corps and routinely worked all night while deployed. I don't complain, I get along well with others, I take responsibility for my actions, I know how to model, and I'm just about done with my MBA. I'm looking for a job as an associate in an industrials coverage group, but will take literally any opportunity if it gets me into banking. PM me your email address and I'll send over my resume.
Regards, Matt
Once the frustration of the whole incident subsides, see if you really care to see himself her reprimanded. My guess is you won’t care anymore. But in the case that you do, take a second to think about if it really matters. Yes, some MDs are yellers. But I think it’s a good thing if your MD doesn’t do that. Where this all matters is during comp time. I’m sure you’ll figure out who got paid what and the comp SHOULD reflect this, especially if this guy or girl is a repeat f*ck up. That’s how these things get dealt with. Or they just get fired. If they aren’t a habitual fuck up then what’s the big deal? I’m sure you’ll have or have had a fuck up that ruined someone else’s day.
I completely agree with you. It is oftentimes that an MD f*cks up a timeline and creates completely unnecessary last minute work simply by poorly managing information. And while there is usually no way around it, the best thing that can happen is as the next generation of financiers grows into senior roles, they (we) can be sure not to do this kind of @ssholery.
The main takeaway for everyone complaining about the MDs' lack of care for their junior members is that when you all become MDs, remember the feelings you had towards your superiors when you were junior members, and if you can, try to make it easier on your future junior members.
This is really sad that organizations that want to see record profits not actually fix problems that could produce those goals. I haven't started my internship yet, but as someone with very poor and wealthy family that comes from a very dangerous part of the world, as a 20 year old guy i could honestly not give a flying fuck how much someone yells at me, or curses or insults me. I come to work to work, not to take other peoples opinions seriously. I don't care how much u make, I'm not gonna feel hurt from some old dude who might have a heart attack within 6 months. My favorite part of when someone is angry with me is my ability to smile and talk to them like apple bee's greeter and watch their face insue in rage even more because of how calm i am.
.
Firstly... You think doing an all-nighter creating a pitchbook is "Brave work"?
That's a spit in the face to those in the military, those in the police force, and fire-fighters. You may work hard but you do not do brave work.
Secondly... its your job to make your bankers look good and these last minute fire drills happen. talk to me when you work on christmas eve and christmas day....
SVP, trying to act genuinely concerned, asked me and the other analyst if we had been getting enough sleep lately..... I responded that I was finally the last one to leave the office last night..... Analyst and SVP erupted into cheers and said "Niceeeeeee." Struck me as really fucked up.
OP doesn't understand corporate hierarchy. Partners work on biz dev aka bringing in new business. The guys below them work on execution and they get to play with juniors / interns who nobody cares about.
Does everyone hate banking? (Originally Posted: 08/13/2011)
All the full-time analysts that I talked to over my summer analyst stint seemed to hate their job. They were happy and quite cheerful at work, but when they would also talk about how much banking sucks and how miserable their lives are at the moment. Is this common at every bank?
Um it's natural...but to answer your question..no not everyone hates banking.
Yeah many people hate the actual work and hours, but the pay and more importantly the exit opportunities are awesome.
Most people dislike the nature of their job but appreciate the pay, "prestige," and career potential that banking brings.
When I tell people I intend to become a banker of some sort, they kind of roll their eyes and go "ohh, you're one of those?" I think, in NY at least, the negative light towards bankers comes from the super-determined, uber-serious students at schools like Stern. But then again, I'm Indian, wear shirts/slacks 90% of the time, and have Wharton running in the family. In general, I think the automatic prestige factor and mis-guided "you're the reason america went through 1.5 recessions!" has a lot to do with it.
people I've personally talked to like banking for reasons such as the learning experience and deal with such smart and dedicated people. What they usually dislike are the long, demanding hours
i actually like it quite a bit overall, in terms of the actual deal-making and idea-generation content of the work - if not for the hours and the bs from some coworkers i might consider staying long term
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