Are the hours really THAT bad?

I was over at Vault checking out some of the 'DAY IN THE LIFE OF' -- IB Analyst.

The analyst featured in this piece was a 1st year analyst at UBS. He starts off his day at 8am and doesnt call it quits until 2am.

My question is, are the hours really like this week in and week out... month after month?

One more thing, it would be great if some you who are actually in the game could put together a 'DAY IN THE LIFE' or even a 'WEEK IN THE LIFE', which could guide us through your typical day/week.

I love hearing stories from guys (and gals) on the inside.

 

Yes, they usually are that bad. You don't work until 2am every night, but that IS typical. You could have a 1-2 month period where you work 90-100hrs a week...which means 6.5 days a week you are basically in the office, and when you aren't there you are sleeping. Occasionally you get the week where you have more idle time and you only have to be in the office around 60hrs a week...It really depends where you work, but you have to be prepared to consistently work over 80hrs if you want to be an analyst in my opinion.

 

It's like this. At a BB, 1am can be the average. You're lucky if you get out before 11pm and at the same time you might have to stay every night until 3 or 4am (for 2 weeks straight). Also, Saturday and Sunday are usually part of the work week. It all sounds pretty bad and it's definitely not easy because you are absolutely giving up a social life (besides going out and getting drunk on a Friday night before hopping back to the office on Saturday afternoon), but you do kind of get used to it.

For anyone who hasn't made the experience, this is a good way to compare it. IBD is like finals week, except it's all year long. So, depending on how many papers you have and when, some days will be worse than others. And yes, your eating patterns are also pretty much the same (midnight snacks anyone?)

As long as you are aware of what your hours and life will be like, it's only half as bad.

 

search function. top right.

everyone sort of exaggerates their hours (myself included), perhaps unknowingly, if asked to give a number by someone from the outside, but the reality is that you will be working all the time and you will be miserable a lot of the time (unless you are psycho and the "star").

the good news is that you will be in NY, so when you have one of those sweet in-the-office-until-2AM Fridays you still have 2 hours left to party when you get out. some sarcasm intended.

 

From what I've heard from people who have interned, they say its the unpredictability of being called to do something that's most annoying, and not so much the hours. It sounds like there's no point in planning anything in advance, since there's always a high chance your staffer could call and force you to cancel your plans. For people who work in the industry... has this been the case for you?

 
BigBang:
From what I've heard from people who have interned, they say its the unpredictability of being called to do something that's most annoying, and not so much the hours. It sounds like there's no point in planning anything in advance, since there's always a high chance your staffer could call and force you to cancel your plans. For people who work in the industry... has this been the case for you?

I've only interned at banks, but it's happened to me so many times. Once even as I was ON MY WAY to the date, I was called in and had to cancel. It really can suck, especially because what I was called in for was a pretty stupid request that could've waited till the morning.

 

Analysts avg. 13-16hrs (usually including sat & sunday or at least saturday) Associates avg 12-14hrs

approximately

stress totally depends on group / culture. sometimes VERY stressful. I would suggest reading material in the forums to get a better idea of what i-Banking is before asking general questions like this and getting unhelpful responses.

 

have not pulled all nighters like that yet. but have been consistently leaving everyday at 2-3am on weekdays and then noon - 10-12pm on weekends. ~110 hrs a week so far for 3 weeks in a row.

 

There are plenty of threads on this very same topic.  Please use the search feature.  The concensus is 90 hr/week with some weeks going up to 130 hrs (max).  Some weeks could be lighter (70-80 hrs) but these are rare.  Long-run average is 90.

Also, keep in mind that everyone tends to exaggerate their hours and just because you're in the office doesn't mean that you're "working."  A lot of time is spent waiting on other people to revise a document/finish a model/give you feedback, etc.  Use the search feature for more.

 

I dont think this will really influence the amount of work you will put in! + people wont share all the information you asked for

So work the most and what people said is true - it can go up to 100-120

 

if you search the forum you can find tons of threads regarding this subject. From what I've read it seems that a general rule is to expect to work 80-100 hours/week with anything more or less than that being the exception. As for vacation, again from what I've read here, it seems that you're looking at DAYS of vacation instead of weeks. I can't remember the source specifically but one person claimed they had three (week)days off out of the whole year.

 

People exaggerate most of the time. It's usually around 80 hours, but when the time comes to making deals, you WILL be looking at 100 hours, even more sometimes.

 

There are dozens if not hundreds of posts on this subject, done by Certified Users (like myself).

To summarize: -You will work a lot -100 hours is very easy to do -Your hours will vary depending on group and deal flow -The hours aren't the issue -Having no control over your life is -If you're concerned about the hours GET ANOTHER GODDAMN JOB

That is all

--There are stupid questions, so think first.
 

brisbane - you should definitely be getting out and meeting some people. enjoy the experience. find people interning in other areas of the bank and see if any of them want to grab a drink (>21) or food (

 

I've met a few other people, but summer analyst classes in Canada are small and my bank does a terrible job of getting SAs to meet each other (no formal two-week training for DCM/S&T SA class, no mixers/social events). The people I've met so far are nice, but they're not the type to go out for drinks and decent dinners downtown after work (or clubbing/bar-hopping on weekends), which is what I want to be doing.

 

There are probably a lot of factors involved in respoding to this question. It will depend on seniority (Analyst Vs. Associate/VP), firm and current deal flow. I can't speak to HK and Singapore, but I find it hard to believe that someone can outright say "the hours in NY are worse than London" or vice versa. It all "depends" on the who, what and whens.

In my opinion, you should probably just settle for "a lot" as a response to your inquiry for all geographies.

 

ok, longer. pls give me some more idea. One of teh BBs i know in HK works 10 am to 3 am. how wud others locations/firms compare to this?

and what abt the culture? i thought NY was more agressive and hence wud expect more hrs there

 

Fair enough,

I was asking about 3rd Yr analysts and fresh associates at BB. I understand it all depends on deal flow.

Could you give me the range (best to worst week hrs) pls? Jsut trying to gauge whether the hours are dependent on location and firm.

~cheers

 

Estimate: sales is about 7-7 or 8, structuring is about 8-10, oil trading about 6-4, gas trading about 7-6, and power trading about 7-7. The more structured things are getting the less markets hours matter. And ICE certainly isn't doing anything to limit the hours!

 

JJ1980, were you in NY before? If so, why did you go to Houston?

Anyone know what the difference in salary might be in a location other than NY (i.e., Houston, San Francisco, etc.)

 

I would also like to know how much salary decreases if you move out of NY. I'm guessing San Francisco or LA would have to be comparable to NY because cost of living is still high, but Houston is super cheap to live. Therefore, if you lived in a place like Houston does pay take a hit (IBD and/or S&T) or do you just get to live a little be larger?

 

depends on the industry. In commodities/energy, Houston pay is prob the same as in NYC. Plus, I'd say living costs are 50% compared to NY. You can seriously ball it up in Houston.

Keep in mind that bonuses and salary are the same but there is no state tax.

 

The is no free lunch...if you work 100 hours you will get paid more than if you work 60/hour, which is rare. In some places it might be closer to 80/hours. However, per hour pay is generally the same.

Do what you want not what you can!
 

I interviewed as an Associate at a late-stage VC firm. Associates said they usually top out at ~60 hrs/week. This was on the East coast, it might even be more relaxed in Cali. I think VC hours are largely firm specific but you can, in general, expect much better hours than IB.

 
Dumbeldore3000:
You can't get into pre-MBA VC unless you: - Did 2 - 4 years of investment banking - Same in consulting

Not necessarily true--there is hardly any modeling and valuation work done at very early stage VC firms. While IB people have an advantage because they are branded as hard workers and quality candidates, the finance skills aren't actually required/hardly ever used (in seed stage VCs), and many people come from other backgrounds. Want proof? Look up "venture capital analyst" on LinkedIn and see how many people came from other backgrounds.

 

you're going to get blasted for this post. there is just too many factors that determine hours including but not limited to the size of firm, culture, amount of work.

plus, there are so many threads on this..

but

1) 40-50 2) 50-70 3) ? 4) 70-90 5) ? (taking into account the days you are traveling?) 6) 80-100

and yes, I may be talking out of my ass, but those numbers are fairly around the ball park other people will say.

 

From what I'm told, Investment Banking for example could be 110 hours/week for a month while on a deal, then 60 hours/week for a month while you're not. On and off it averages out, depending on the group, to anywhere from 70-100 hours/week

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

No they get a bit easier, but a lot of that is because you arent sitting in the office for hours at a time with nothing to do.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

Go for good hours - as long as it doesn't limit your exit options. Sometimes Sponsors has good hours and good placement, but this is generally an exception. Check out why a group might have low hours (do they have deal flow? did a MD leave? do they not do execution?).

Going for a sweatshop is no guarantee of good deal experience. There are many groups with terrible dealflow who are in the office 100 hours a week cranking out pitchbooks.

 

You will really not know the differences in a bank until your friends are making the same as you in bonus and leave at 7pm.

TMT in NYC gets crushed a lot of times (can speak from experience) because a lot of the clients are on the west coast. Some of the worst nights I have had were because i was working with an analyst on the West Coast. Midnight for him, 3 am for me.

 

West Coast Rainmaker - yup this is the aim. Was just trying to see which areas are best for this.

vtech243 - did this happen to you? your friends in IBD left at 7pm!!! what area did they work in (you can PM me if you want).

 

I understand the concern about hours but if you haven't even set foot in the working world yet you are in for a rude awakening when you realize how long even a 60 hour week can feel. If your first concern in I-banking is to channel yourself into the group with the best hours then you need to find a new propsective path.

Note to college (and high school) students: Work hours in the abstract =/= work hours in the office.

 

cheese86 - I have interned before and worked long hours so through that I figured out my 'threshold'. Is this not accurate? I'm not trying to pick the best group based on hours e.g. I wouldn't pick a team I didn't fit into because they had better hours vs a team that I liked/they liked me who had longer hours. I was just curious to see any trends in the IBD working hours.

 

There are many factors in deciding where to go, hours is one, but working with good people offsets relentlessly long weeks.

FYI, while Lev Fin does not do consistently crazy hours, you should expect to ramp-up your work when getting approved internally and then funding. I believe the Lev Fin shops also have a higher strike rate compared to advisory.

 
peinvestor2012:

I average 80, probably put in a true 60-65, maybe less, maybe more.

Same here. But my Saturdays are working so it's kind of a trade-off between lesser hours per day but a 6-day week.

mrb87:

I probably put in a real 80-90 hours a week. You should always be reading *something* on the buy side.

Tired of hearing this from my Associate. On the rare day I wrap up my work "early", I'm expected to be either reading something or improving existing work. Sigh.

Move along, nothing to see here.
 
mrb87:

I probably put in a real 80-90 hours a week. You should always be reading *something* on the buy side.

Do you work at a Megafund? I had the impression that you work around 60 hours in PE with minimal weekend work.

 

There's no way to answer this post. Hours don't really vary that much on a firm-by-firm basis, they vary by group. Pretty much all of these banks have "sweatshop" groups that work ~100 hours consistently, and some "culture" groups that work ~70 on average.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

I hear detusche bank does 09 hrs per week max.

jk

Anyways, if you can't handle ridiculous hours I wouldn't do ibanking (I'm not a banker b/c of this... sleep is essential). I know a friend who had a month straight without a day off and another who worked for 72 hours straight (I'm assuming at least some breaks in the middle....). Back in 07 I heard someone saying he did 130 in one of his weeks at GS. I think he decided banking wasn't fit for him after that and went to McKinsey. I sometimes see pictures of chair pillows on my facebook.

 
floppity:

I hear detusche bank does 09 hrs per week max.

jk

Anyways, if you can't handle ridiculous hours I wouldn't do ibanking (I'm not a banker b/c of this... sleep is essential). I know a friend who had a month straight without a day off and another who worked for 72 hours straight (I'm assuming at least some breaks in the middle....). Back in 07 I heard someone saying he did 130 in one of his weeks at GS. I think he decided banking wasn't fit for him after that and went to McKinsey. I sometimes see pictures of chair pillows on my facebook.

I've done 130...

xoxo

[quote=Dirk Dirkenson]Shut up already. Your mindless, reflexive responses to any critical thought on this are tedious. You're also probably a woman, given the name and "xoxo" signoff, so maybe the lack of judgment is to be expected.[/quote]
 
postman:

i'm from GS and my average is 97.675 hours per week. My buddy at MS averages 96.723 hours, lucky bastard....

Are you netting out time spent texting, talking, breathing, blinking, thinking or shitting? If not then you're a slacker and barely work at all.

This to all my hatin' folks seeing me getting guac right now..
 

Also, hours in the average group are grossly exaggerated, FYI. However, the groups with sweatshop reputations usually are deserving of the label.

"For all the tribulations in our lives, for all the troubles that remain in the world, the decline of violence is an accomplishment we can savor, and an impetus to cherish the forces of civilization and enlightenment that made it possible."
 

100+ hours in my group (tech) every single week except for around Christmas. There has never been a single week other than the holidays where I've done under 100. I've taken 2 days off in 2013 (weekends, federal/bank holidays included).

How is this possible, you ask? 9-2am M-F. 80-85 hours already. 12ish hours per day on the weekend. I hardly ever know what day it is because really it doesn't matter. This is an average week. In my group of 10 analysts, it is unlikely that you find a weeknight where no one pulls an all nighter.

My group has a reputation for being a sweatshop, and it delivers. Just wanted to set clear expectations. Being in a sweatshop group isn't about pulling a crazy double all nighter once in a while and telling the story over and over again. It's about doing this for months on end without a break.

 
LifestyleBanker:

100+ hours in my group (tech) every single week except for around Christmas. There has never been a single week other than the holidays where I've done under 100. I've taken 2 days off in 2013 (weekends, federal/bank holidays included).

How is this possible, you ask? 9-2am M-F. 80-85 hours already. 12ish hours per day on the weekend. I hardly ever know what day it is because really it doesn't matter. This is an average week. In my group of 10 analysts, it is unlikely that you find a weeknight where no one pulls an all nighter.

My group has a reputation for being a sweatshop, and it delivers. Just wanted to set clear expectations. Being in a sweatshop group isn't about pulling a crazy double all nighter once in a while and telling the story over and over again. It's about doing this for months on end without a break.

And you do this why..?

 
LifestyleBanker:

100+ hours in my group (tech) every single week except for around Christmas. There has never been a single week other than the holidays where I've done under 100. I've taken 2 days off in 2013 (weekends, federal/bank holidays included).

How is this possible, you ask? 9-2am M-F. 80-85 hours already. 12ish hours per day on the weekend. I hardly ever know what day it is because really it doesn't matter. This is an average week. In my group of 10 analysts, it is unlikely that you find a weeknight where no one pulls an all nighter.

My group has a reputation for being a sweatshop, and it delivers. Just wanted to set clear expectations. Being in a sweatshop group isn't about pulling a crazy double all nighter once in a while and telling the story over and over again. It's about doing this for months on end without a break.

This makes your username fairly ironic.

Also, get off WSO and get to work!

"For I am a sinner in the hands of an angry God. Bloody Mary full of vodka, blessed are you among cocktails. Pray for me now and at the hour of my death, which I hope is soon. Amen."
 

Zero travel as your senior does most of the traveling. Mostly a cost issue and their isn't any point in you tagging along. Hours are about 60-65 in the beginning because your new and you have no idea what your doing most of the time so its trial and error. When you get better it becomes second nature and hours slacken up naturally as you become more productive. ER hours are also heavily dependent on you group. Groups are really lean in comparison to the IB as most of the time its just 3 people. Your covering analyst, you and an associate or VP. Some of the bigger groups have more people just because they cover more companies. If your MD is a slave driver well sucks to be you but if he is chill and you get most of your shit done then hours are quite manageable compared to other groups within finance.

 
bearing:
Zero travel as your senior does most of the traveling. Mostly a cost issue and their isn't any point in you tagging along. Hours are about 60-65 in the beginning because your new and you have no idea what your doing most of the time so its trial and error. When you get better it becomes second nature and hours slacken up naturally as you become more productive. ER hours are also heavily dependent on you group. Groups are really lean in comparison to the IB as most of the time its just 3 people. Your covering analyst, you and an associate or VP. Some of the bigger groups have more people just because they cover more companies. If your MD is a slave driver well sucks to be you but if he is chill and you get most of your shit done then hours are quite manageable compared to other groups within finance.

I had lunch today with a VP (not in ER) that told me the hours are "horrendous" and that junior analysts travel often. Now if he was talking about 60-65 hours, I just do not consider that to be "horrendous." He said the reason the hours are bad is because most the day is spent traveling around, talking to/entertaining clients, and that they have no time to do work until the night. I was surprised at this description because it was so unlike what I had read about ER. Any thoughts?

"Give me guys that are poor, smart, and hungry. And no feelings." - Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko in "Wall Street"

"Give me guys that are poor, smart, and hungry. And no feelings." - Michael Douglas as Gordon Gekko in "Wall Street"
 

Tell that VP that they invented something called a telephone and most of your client contact is over the phone.

What bearing says is correct, unless you work for goldman then you may expect slightly longer hours.

You will work five days a week from 7am to 7pm, a little more during earnings season. If you come in on Saturday you may have a hard time getting someone to turn on the AC because the floor is usually empty; I once had a hard time accessing my floor period, I think I had to use the fire escape or something like that just to get to my computer.

As a junior you will not travel too much unless you get into a group that goes everywhere together, otherwise its the senior analyst that does all of the traveling.

 
stk123:
Tell that VP that they invented something called a telephone and most of your client contact is over the phone.

What bearing says is correct, unless you work for goldman then you may expect slightly longer hours.

You will work five days a week from 7am to 7pm, a little more during earnings season. If you come in on Saturday you may have a hard time getting someone to turn on the AC because the floor is usually empty; I once had a hard time accessing my floor period, I think I had to use the fire escape or something like that just to get to my computer.

As a junior you will not travel too much unless you get into a group that goes everywhere together, otherwise its the senior analyst that does all of the traveling.

Why would hours be worse at Goldman? That doesn't even make sense. What bearing originally said is correct - hours are entirely dependent on your group.

Quite a few groups at my BB work 15 hour days and 80 hours a week when not in earnings season, and 100+ during earnings.

 

Keep in mind that while you are working less hours, every hour you do spend is a bit more intense because the work is happening all day (in contrast with IBD where a lot of the morning hours are face time and it takes a few hours for the senior guys to relay work to you).

Also, it can be argued that 1st year ER earns less than 1st year IBD in some firms(though from what I've seen most BB's pay all S&T/ER/IB first years in the same bonus range). Of course thats not the topic of discussion but always food for thought when considering which path in finance you want to start out on.

 

@Bowser - I am just saying what the word is on the street that Goldman works their analysts a lot harder than other BBs. Maybe you work at Goldman and have better info, because what you described:

"Quite a few groups at my BB work 15 hour days and 80 hours a week when not in earnings season, and 100+ during earnings."

...sounds pretty shitty, because at my BB there is maybe one group that works that hard.

@born2bebusiness - you may or may not make as much money as a research analyst as IBD does, it depends on your bank. As you stay longer your pay will increase at a little/lot slower pace than IBD until you hit senior analyst (as in head of your group) and your pay will increase substantially once again but not quite as much as an MD in IBD even though some get into 7-digits.

 

Pretty much can reiterate the consensus of what everyone has already said. I'd say the hours range anywhere from 50-70/wk on any given normal week and about 70-90/wk during earnings season (~10-12 weeks of the year). Once again, it depends on the group and how many companies you cover. Rarely will you work weekends as well.

As far as traveling goes, that's group dependent as well. I'd say expect to travel a few times a year at most, maybe a little bit more but most likely not. Client interaction is mainly done by the senior analyst but you will have interaction with both the sales guys and the traders as you become more knowledgable about the companies/sector you cover.

 

Goldman makes their junior analysts travel with their senior analysts more often than other firms. From what I've heard, its almost like PE style due diligence. Overall, Goldman research isn't as highly rated as other BB's (but still really good obviously) and many say this is because they focus their research less on the buyside and more on their own groups.

 

A lot of misinformation concerning this thread. I will try to make this simple.

  1. E.R. rarely gets the same bonus range as bankers/traders. I know at Goldman they definitely DO NOT. I believe their base is lower too (60k compared to 70k).

  2. Goldman E.R. works around 60 hours a week. Unless HR + the VP I talked to (senior analyst elsewhere) were lying to me, it's definitely within that range. I'm sure there are exceptions but this is the "average".

  3. You rarely travel in E.R. and at Goldman specifically, you do not travel. They make it very clear that you get a lot of responsibiity because your senior travels (VP/MD) while you stay behind and field the phone calls.

 

i am an associate for a BB in a group that covers ten names. three of those names are huge/important companies, five are well known leaders in the space, and two are fairly small/unknown.

hours will vary by group. associates (post mba) will do some travel - trade shows, nyc based analyst events, or travel to meet management mostly. younger guys tend not to travel.

groups tend to consist of one senior analyst who covers the top names in the sector, a junior analyst who covers the smaller names, and one or two associates. both analysts usually spend lots of time traveling together. the assistants (post undergrad) are usually appointed to sector heads (mine reports to the Tech sector head, who has 8 analysts reporting to him (internet, telecom, software, etc etc)) and thus they will split their time supporting around 5-10 analysts.

Typical Day for Associate 7:30 - 7:45 arrive at office. Varies by group. 8:30 is considered to be very late, 6:30 is very early. When you upgrade/downgrade a stock you have to brief the sales department at their morning meeting, which occurs at 7:30, so the entire team arrives early to prepare.

5:00-6:00pm - Friday departure time The rule of thumb is to leave 15 minutes after your senior Analyst departs for the Hamptons. Gives him time to get out of the building. You don't want any chance encounters in the elevator/lobby.

8:30pm - this is the minimum departure time that guarantees you free dinner at your desk. Monday - Thursday, most people order in food. After 8:30, people usually start trickling out. Lots of people in the office between 8 and 10.

11pm - the floor is usually quiet, and the AC shuts down. 11pm is not uncommon but is considered to be a pretty late time to leave under normal circumstances.

2am - this is the latest I've routinely left the office (for about a two week stretch) during the final part of the initiation process. During earnings you can expect nights like this, with early mornings due to the sales meeting.

4:45am - this is the latest I ever had to stay in the office during initiation. very unlikely to stay this late during earnings.

 

Honestly, my hours have dropped from a steady 90-100 to around 70-80 per week. I've been one of the fortunate ones as none of my deals have died. I would say that some of the deals are now moving at a slower pace and there are an increased number of projects circulating the office. None of this is face time as we do not have a face time policy and never have.

Note: I do not work at a BB in NYC, but my hours were definitely on par with the BBs during better times.

~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker

CompBanker’s Career Guidance Services: https://www.rossettiadvisors.com/
 
CompBanker:
Honestly, my hours have dropped from a steady 90-100 to around 70-80 per week. I've been one of the fortunate ones as none of my deals have died. I would say that some of the deals are now moving at a slower pace and there are an increased number of projects circulating the office. None of this is face time as we do not have a face time policy and never have.

Note: I do not work at a BB in NYC, but my hours were definitely on par with the BBs during better times.

~~~~~~~~~~~ CompBanker

Dude, I respect you and your opinions, but you are, what in some circles (aka bitter ex BB analyst circles) a huge BL (Banker-Lover). If you already have a P.E offer, you are one of the unfortunate ones that your deal still hasn't died. You should totally check out at this point and enjoy life outside of the office a little, go out there and do a little models and bottles man.

 

I'm usually 8:30 - 8:30 with no weekends. If there is a shift it tends to be toward longer rather than shorter hours. I know my US counterparts are working way longer, although I can't quite figure out what they are doing half the time to stay that late. From friends at BB's in London I have heard 9:30 - 7 with a long break during the day for lunch and the gym. This is all for IBD.

 

I'm at a larger middle-market PE shop and lately, I've been working about 11 hours a day on the weekdays and a few hours on the weekends. There are at least a couple hours every day where I'm really not doing much. So in terms of real work, at least these days, I'd say it's only about 55 hours a week. I'm helping to look at a few deals in the pre-LOI stage, but most of it is pretty exploratory right now so the workload isn't all that demanding.

Not sure if anyone on the buyout side is really working 85+ hours out there, at least in this country; I have a number of friends at the large LBO shops and none of them are in the office this much. I'd be curious what kind of deals people are working on that depends this type of time commitment, because I'm thinking there must be a lot of wasted time in between.

​* http://www.linkedin.com/in/numicareerconsulting
 

Numi, I have a friend at KKR that's working pretty bad hours (80+). Past few weeks I've been in around 9 leaving around midnight, but that's a couple specific projects that will be over soon, not deal related. July through October I was working on a deal that was keeping me from 9 to about 9PM-11PM every night, then it slowed down to about 9AM - 7/8PM for a few weeks. I think the week leading up to Christmas I should be out of here by 7PM at the very latest, though.

 

Interesting, GameTheory -- I figure there are at least some people out there that are still cranking, but I find that my hours (as well as those of my friends that are also in PE) have tailed off meaningfully since September. Of course, I'm not really complaining because it leaves me with more free time, but I do wonder when things will start picking up again. It seems like most people expect things to be slow through early 2009. What's been the sentiment at your firm, and do you find that you're spending more time on other stuff other than deal-related activities? I'm just trying to figure out if there are other ways I can "add value" if the deal flow isn't all that robust, which is the case for us right now.

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90+ hour a week. Also in restructuring.

I just got an apartment and was trying to move in last week but didn't get the time. Then I was planning on moving in this weekend, but just found out this weekend Ill be working "every waking minute" in the words of my MD.

Additionally, WTF! My VP tells me to build a model at noon and says we need to have it done by 2 PM, I come back to him at 12:30 with 60% of it done, to ask him about some assumptions, he answers my questions and then, unbeknown to me, gives the print out to my MD as a finished product. VP then calls me back to go through a bunch of errors he ingeniously "found" and tells me how such and such MD gets very nervous when he sees mistakes in our models. Does anyone else work with people this fuckin stupid?

Ok, Im done now.

 
elan:
90+ hour a week. Also in restructuring.

I just got an apartment and was trying to move in last week but didn't get the time. Then I was planning on moving in this weekend, but just found out this weekend Ill be working "every waking minute" in the words of my MD.

Additionally, WTF! My VP tells me to build a model at noon and says we need to have it done by 2 PM, I come back to him at 12:30 with 60% of it done, to ask him about some assumptions, he answers my questions and then, unbeknown to me, gives the print out to my MD as a finished product. VP then calls me back to go through a bunch of errors he ingeniously "found" and tells me how such and such MD gets very nervous when he sees mistakes in our models. Does anyone else work with people this fuckin stupid?

Ok, Im done now.

should have done s&t :)
 

I think it all depends on your group culture. My group was somewhat similar to Compbankers - nobody really checked out once they got their offer. In fact, the 6 months after the summer of my first year were the worst months in banking for my class. Deal flow was crazy, the senior bankers were hesitant to trust the 1st years with important work, so the 2nd years ended up getting crushed. Only one analyst checked out completely, but as a third year it was probably warranted, and although the next step was PE, I would argue she wasn't really in finance for the long haul.

On the other hand, the group across the floor from us had a culture of checking out immediately after getting offers. The nice thing about that is that it forces the 1st years to step up and fill the void, getting good experience along the way and setting themselves up for good jobs in the future, but it also sucks for the first year. Just depends on what group you work in - if your entire group is working hard year round and you're the only one checking out, you look like a jackass.

 

I'm doing a 10-10/11 day at the moment with some occassional weekend work but not too much. That also include a decent amount of time for lunch and dinner most days though sometimes work pretty much full out throughout the day.

 

Hey all -- Reviving an old thread here because I used the search function...just curious if banking hours in 2011 are similar to 2007.

I imagine most answers I will get are depends on the bank/group.

I would be interested in getting some feedback from people on what the hours are like for traditional front office IBD product & industry groups at the following firms, preferably in NYC but other locations also welcome:

Evercore Greenhill Lazard GS MS CS DB BarCap UBS Citi BAML Jefferies Piper Jaffray Suntrust RH Rothschild Allen & Co Harris Williams RBC

I am curious because I am in for a career, not a 2 year stint with exit ops, and want to balance a family with my job.

 

Hours are starting to feel like 05-07 again! In no small part due to the ridiculous credit environment currently (I work at a BB in NYC). I was an analyst back then and remember getting crushed day after day, week after week, year after year (brutal time, really). Things got better during the downturn but over the last 6-12 months have really picked up. That being said, my life as an associate has been a lot easier than my life as an analyst - 65-75 hrs, depending on the week. You become much better at managing your time, less concerned about face time and get more slack from your MDs/VPs who you've worked with for years (I'm a direct promote). Not great by any means but certainly more manageable.

 

danske, thanks for the input. It sounds like because you already now how things work in a bank your leaning curve was much shorter and adjusted quickly. Would you say a first year career-changer associate will have a very different outlook than you? 65-75 hours a week sounds pretty light, actually. That sounds more like VP hours.

What I am truly interested in knowing is how bad are the hours at the VP and MD level, in a competitive group like GS TMT, as well as a more middle of the road group (like Healthcare). I am trying to think about long term implications of choosing the banking career and the ability balance a family. I can do the 90/100-hour weeks for the 3-4 years of being an associate, but can I be home with my kids by 7pm on weekdays and home on weekends as a VP/MD? I understand there is business travel and busy weeks where even the senior guys are crazy busy, but I am talking about the normal tempo for the senior guys.

 

jc - you're right and it is a completely different situation for new associates. You'll find for the 1.5-2.5 years new associates are EXTREMELY keen to please (and in some ways it makes sense, they know this is a career path for them). When I was a 1st year associate, many of my just out of business school peers were habitually pulling the same hours as 1st year analysts (100+). Part of that is they were really learning everything for the first time, didn't know how to manage people, and needed to build up credibility so that they'd be trusted moving forward. Regardless of the situation, after a couple of years everyone gets to be more or less on the same page and it really starts depending 1) who you work for - some MDs/VPs are workaholic slave drivers, others are family oriented (well, to the extent possible) 2) how busy your sector/space is 3) what you view as valuable/your ability to "turn off". So all in all, you can expect to work analyst hours for the first couple of years and then come down to the hours I was quoting (as long as 1 and 2 above hold). VP life is really a lot more in your control. Some guys are really eager to bring in deals and will start covering smaller clients in addition to supporting MDs, others are more content to just execute on orders well. It's kind of up to you but the guys at my bank work 60-80 hours a week. At the director level people are largely out by 7 (but in by 8 in the morning) and at the MD level it's up to you but my guys are out by 6-7 (travel gets painful, though). Something for you to consider is that even if you do leave the office, you never really leave your job. You'll constantly be checking your bberry, hopping on calls, reviewing decks and reading mroe about your sectors...it's a tough life for a family guy but manageable as long as you set your priorities right and dont get obsessed about being # 1 at everything (i.e. give up your type A ways a little)

 

Oh, and to your earlier question on groups, yes some are certainly worse than others because their sectors are hot at particular times (feast when you can...) but in other cases a lot of it really comes down to the personalities of the people you work with and interestingly enough their clients. Large industrial and media companies, for example, generally have extremely sophisticated CEOs/CFOs and as a banker you have to do a lot of work in order to impress them/get them on board. Some medium sized, higher growth, healthcare companies, for example, are more relationshipy and you have to do less work to please them. All that being said, I know groups that are sweatshop groups and dont do deals and have friends at great groups that have pretty good work/life balance. Diligence the people you work with when making a decision and make culture a big part of your decision.

 

Don't kid yourself, even if your only working 50-60 hours a week as a vp/md you'll be on the road 3 days a week minimum... and when you aren't traveling you'll be thinking about work. Banking and family life don't mix, especially in NYC. Stop trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole - the sooner you realize that the sooner you'll be able to make the right decision for you and your family. You might have a better shot outside of NYC, but still doubtful.

 

Look, I am working on about 120 hours this week and over 120 last week. This week is looking to be more of the same. Make no mistake about it, everyone in this business gets worked like a damn slave. Associates, in my opinion, actually have it worse than analysts for their first 2 years. As an associate, you work analyst hours for the first year or two, but unfortunately less cushion for mistakes. That being said, even VPs are pretty consistently at the office until 8 or 9. If you are worried about hours or work/life balance, quickly start thinking about other career alternatives.

 

I think it can be pulled off. I know a few guys who balance a family with a banking career. I see it as worthwhile to give it a try. If I get into an industry group like media, technology, healthcare, aerospace, or whatever, and do it for 3-5 years, and then realize as a VP I don't want to do it anymore, then at the young age of 32-34 I can go get a corp dev job somewhere in the mid west or south, take a steep haircut in pay for quality of life, and be more of a family man then. I can't choose corp dev or management out of business school, and then after 3-4 years in a specific industry change my mind and be a banker. I worked a long time to get into banking, and I can't give up a major goal like that this early in my life for anyone, especially my family, because I might end up resenting my family because of it.

My question of what are the hours like is not me hoping that it will be an easy balance, but me trying to find out if it is possible after associate to have some semblance of family life. From hearing from actual associates on WSO and seniors guys I have spoken to in banking, it seems the answer is yes, it is possible. I already know the hours will be crazy as an associate, but If in 4 years I can be home on weekends and weeknights early enough for bath time for the kids every once in a while I think you can chalk that up as a win. I think it is about setting priorities, even at the expense of promotion. If I am on the road for 3 days as an MD then BFD. If I can be with my family but just have to check my Blackberry while doing so that why is that such a disaster. Better than a consultant on the road 5-6 days a week. If I don't make partner or become the head of an industry group because I was the banker who didn't strive as hard because family mattered more, than so be it.

I spent an entire year separated from my friends and family while deployed overseas and that worked out just fine. I think flying business class as an MD 3 days a week and checking my email while at a kid's spelling bee isn't all that bad. I think people don't realize how hard some other people work in the world, and don't get nearly the payoff bankers do.

My father worked crazy hours as a NYPD detective (lots of overtime), and my mom was a bridge and tunnel officer before becoming a cop herself. My parents didn't make bank, but they put in crazy hours. My grandfather worked 16 hours a day as a delivery man and a furniture maker, and he didn't make a lot of money either.

If stayed in the military, I would have to deploy and make sacrifices to make rank, and that would burden my family especially when I would have to move to another base every 4 years. If I became a doctor, then years of school, residency, and fellowships would keep me away from my family at all hours as well. If I became a lawyer, it would probably be worse hours and less pay than a banker. In any field, if you want to rise to the top, you have to work hard. That is why not everyone does it; but those who do, the question isn't if they can balance a family, but if they are willing to make the effort.

I am not trying to throw it back in anyone's face who answered my original question if the hours are bad, I am trying to assert that I am not looking for an easy ride; I am just trying to get an idea of what the industry landscape is like in terms of working hours so I know what I am getting myself into. I am not looking for direct opinions on if I should do it.

 

Well said jc, I definitely think it's possible. My cousin is married to a fof md who is traveling all the time and barely sees his family. His daughters are almost 10 and he will be retiring next year with 20 mil in the bank at the young age of 40. He'll have the rest of his life to spend every minute with his wife and daughters and a few years from now they won't remember or care that their dad was so busy.

-MBP
 

Some days are spent bouncing around juggling so many projects, poring over research, and reviewing/editing deliverables that you realize it's 10pm, you haven't eaten anything all day, and your email box is flooded. Other days it's hurry up and wait on your [MD/VP/Associate] to review something and make edits. There were many times as an Analyst that the majority of my work wasn't actually given to me until about 6/7pm. Then the "day" actually began.

So there's no single right answer to your question. It's really a combination, like any other job.

Once more into the breach, dear friends.
 

Go to a boutique if you don't want the shit hours. It's 5:30 and I'm going home. If you want a goldman business card, then expect to stay late because of face time.

 
ratul:
Go to a boutique if you don't want the shit hours. It's 5:30 and I'm going home. If you want a goldman business card, then expect to stay late because of face time.

Where the hell do you work ?? Is it too late to get a job there ??

 

isn't that nuts? I went home at 5:30! I almost lost my mind. AND, my boss TOLD me to go home! It was glorious! I work at this sick boutique with all former goldmans guys. They hate the bullshit but want the money. Dude, best decision ever.

 

i avg more like 90hrs a week, not 80.

to me, the most frustrating aspect are the the days where i twiddle my thumbs from 9am-6pm and then get work at 6 and end up staying until 4am.

i make it a point not to get stuck on fri/sat nights, but it'll happen occasionally.

 

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Once more into the breach, dear friends.
 

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Once more into the breach, dear friends.
 

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