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MS all day unless you get stuck in some weird industry group, but same could happen at JP
how does JPM M&A compare to the average GS/MS group?
JPM - i'd take a recession-proof balance sheet above a little bit more prestige any day
Haha Solidarity - MS' biggest cheerleader on WSO.
JPM M&A over average MS coverage group for sure. GS not so clear, probably would have to be decided by what you're interested in/what you want to do afterwards. I've heard great things about the M&A group in terms of the people and the experience.
Just curious - what group in MS are you in Solidarity?
FIG
islandbanker, always trying to busting my balls hahaha
I'm not going to comment on my employment situation, but MS industry groups run pretty lean, and the analysts I've talked to have gotten their top exit choices, whether it be PE / HF / VC.
On the other hand, JPM M&A is HUGE, and I know for a fact that several of their analysts have gone on to (relatively) mediocre funds afterwards.
MS is about to layoff and is barely surviving, JPM is the easy pick
JPM M&A is not huge, their analyst class (within the group) is on the smaller side. Being analyst at JPM M&A (vs other groups at JPM or other top banks) does not mean you are better/smarter/getting a great experience.
I'm sure the people who do not end up at prestigious/ sought after (whatever that means) funds are the ones who didn't care/ were not good enough.
There are a few groups at JPM that do all the M&A modeling "in-house" - something that very few people on this board know. So a good chunk of the big deals that JPM has been on were not even done by the M&A group.
Relative to other JPM groups
This is true at every bank with a product / industry split; real estate, FIG, etc anything with wonky valuation in-houses all of their M&A. There are +'s and -'s to working in those industry groups though...I guess I should have been more specific, there are groups at JPM other than FIG and real estate that do all the modeling inside the group.
As for JPM I was not referring to "some", I was referring to anywhere between 70-99% (group dependent), though of course there groups that do less.
I was referring to groups that do 100% of their own M&A. Of course, every group will try to sell you on M&A and LBO's
FIG at JPM is great. Can't say the same about MS FIG.
Again, I'm not going to comment on my employment, but the above is patently false... MS FIG is very strong.
And just because you made me check,
YTD (Q3) M&A league tables: http://dmi.thomsonreuters.com/Content/Files/3Q11_MA_Financial_Advisory_…
MS is #1 in global FIG M&A, and the group is probably only half as big its counterpart at JP. Not to rag on JP, because JP FIG is great, but that's just blatantly untrue.
I have had dealings with both their financial sponsors groups and a couple of industry groups....for me JPM were the more diligent, detail orientated and hard working, whereas MS were incredibly smooth and slick (but still got the job done).
Agree with the poster above who mentioned corporate stability - JPM would win on that account by a fair distance...
JPM vs MS IBD (Originally Posted: 02/11/2014)
Any thoughts? Which groups at one trump groups at the other? Any help would be much appreciated!
It depends what you're looking for. For example, at JPM, several groups including Healthcare, Diversified Industries and FIG do all of their M&A in house and are much stronger within their own space than at MS. At MS, the M&A group is amazing, but most coverage groups don't do it in house, so that is something to consider as well.
Stupid point- at MS 3-4 industry groups do their own M&A. Same goes for JPM. On average groups at MS are stronger - exceptions are probably Healthcare (JP leads the space, MS is probably 3/4) and Diversified Industries (MS industrials isn't that great, though transpo is very solid, so hard to do a direct comparison). FIG groups are strong at both (would give the edge to MS). Sponsors, M&A, anything Tech/Mediacomm. Power, Natural Resources, etc. all stronger at MS. Depends how you like the people and if there is an industry you are passionate about (and how it stacks up at one vs. the other). While JP is definitely becoming much stronger (and some would argue is a stronger bank than MS currently), exits don't reflect this sentiment.
"If you can't model or don't have a diverse list of deals"....
lol does this sound like an analyst at Morgan Stanley to you? Oh and btw dealflow exit opps (case in point BX M&A).
suffice to say, both are great banks. JP has a ton of momentum but top groups at MS outplace top groups at JP. Not to say that this won't change in the future, but it's true right now
Well said
Personally I would go with MS especially if I was aware that I could certainly get into one of M & A, P & U or M & T. Otherwise, I would select based on where I liked the people the most.
JPM's also expanding their class by 10%. I've also heard that MS has an ~75 person summer analyst class, which would likely make it the smallest of the BBs.
MS is the choice here. It's not a lot better, but it's better.
Hey hate to revive this, but can someone elaborate on this decision from a group placement perspective? A lot of people here seem to assign an oddly high probability to getting MS M&A, which in my experience is extremely difficult, and then list M&A as having the best exits without elaborating on other groups. Meanwhile, at JPM, people list M&A, Sponsors, CRG, TMT, FIG, HC as all having "great" exits.
Assuming you have these offers and don't have the leverage to get M&A at MS, how would you think about this? Does MS Sponsors place better than JPM Sponsors? MS CRG vs JPM CRG? It is relevant to me- just not sure I understand placement at MS outside of M&A.
every bank is diff with regards to M&A as a product group or within the coverage team. in any group you join, you should be seeking to do M&A - deals, and deal exposure, are what PE is looking for. in either case, JPM and MS are both great and both are sweat shops.
How's the Energy group for the both of these? JPM guys seem great
What sets MS apart from GS, JPM, etc.? (Originally Posted: 12/01/2011)
What do you think are the main differences in ''core values'' and business mentality/work climate that sets MS apart from the other IBs? I've read all the company websites but find it difficult matching my skills and mentality with that of an IB.
Don't do that.
Meet people. That will tell you as much as you need to know for what you're looking for in each firm. Websites don't accurately depict the reality of the culture (which is shaped by core values, mentality, and atmosphere .. all that you mention), but the people do.
Find the firms where you feel most at home, then network with any connection you can leverage (alumni, fraternity, relatives), then crush whatever interviews you get. If you wind up with multiple offers, do the same process all over again ... but on a group level rather than firmwide. Figure out which group is best for you within each firm you've received an offer in, network with people there, and see if you can land a desk-specific offer. Whichever bank gives you the best desk offer that fits for you, choose (unless you're either a legend or incredibly lucky and get that at multiple firms).
Thank you! Unfortunately I have to write a cover letter and attach that to my application (it is mandatory). It is for a position in London or somewhere else in Europe. Compared to the US, they value the cover letter more and in fact, there is a chance that people read it. MS told me to first mail them my CV and cover letter, then they will decide whether to interview me. Cover letter is pretty basic, but I have to explain why I am a good fit in just 3-5 sentences. Any advise on that?
great culture, tittles dont separate interaction-relatively speaking of course Very diverse firm that takes pride in those aspects Great to build a career within and very flexible when it comes to role changes great mentor opportunity. Hope those help.
All of the above is true. Also, check the new Employer Database section just added to this site. Several reviews of the firm are available, echo the feedback there.
It's very simple: There's nothing like walking into a Brooks Brothers advertisement every day at 9 am.
Thank you all for the advise! I will manage to write the cover letter
I was joking, please don't include that in your cover letter. ;)
GS and MS
An MS banker will tell you he works at Morgan Stanley. A GS banker will tell you he works at 200 West st.
That's the cultural difference in a nutshell.
I've noticed this...GS bankers are reluctant to say where they work unless directly asked. Do they actually teach this to their new recruits? Seems pretty pretentious.
Isn't the point of that to be unpretentious?
But dropping around the GS (or any other top bank/firm for that matter) name to anyone who'll listen technically is name dropping because of its correlations. It's the equivalent of someone complimenting your suit and you responding with "Brioni." When I first met this one guy, he told me what he did, but he never said where, even when we were talking about work and market related topics. Fast forward to me meeting his friends. The first thing one of them says to me is "I work at GS w/ X." I feel like most guys at GS fall under one of those two categories.
Topical GSElevator blast from a couple days ago:
Pretty fucking funny if you ask me! (Also, I'm proud of the fact that I had to look up who the fuck Scott Disick was, even though the dude has 1.2m followers.)
https://twitter.com/#!/GSElevator/status/143191378611019776 https://twitter.com/#!/GSElevator
MS vs. JPM (Originally Posted: 12/19/2009)
Hi guys
What would you do if you have an offer from both of these firms? What is your opinion on their overall performance/prestige these days?
What bank offers the best exit opps in PE?
All comments welcome.
Thanks
MS>JPM in prestige and pe exits
MS = GS > JPM
Tiger Woods is right
GS is far better than MS on your resume ... and JPM may be on par with either of them. Seriously. GS and MS almost went out of business didn't they????
oh ok, thanks wsofan2009.
I'd say difference is absolutely marginal. It's like comparing Harvard, Yale, and Princeton. Yeah, one can argue that Harvard is better than Y & P, but honestly have any of you HYP'ers ever encountered a case where you get in by the school name on your resume alone?
depends on the group and what you want to do...for MS, go M&A, Tech in Menlo, FIG, perhaps Media and Power. For GS, go TMT, etc....JPM do the balance sheet stuff...
For JPM... by 'balance sheet stuff' do you mean capital structure advisory and solutions? I know someone very senior in this group but I've been having trouble finding information about it.
If you to to the UK, note that brits are obsessed with JPM and many think it's the greatest company ever (ie >GS,MS, and everything else)
For the rest of the world however, MS>JPM obviously.
Completely depends on the group.
In Europe, GS > JPM > MS >
In the US, GS > MS > JPM
Go with whichever firm you're more comfortable with. If you're in NYC, you're not even having to decide on location (JPM is all over Park Ave and MS is on Broadway, so you're in Midtown regardless).
If you're in London, JPM is in The City, and MS is in Canary Wharf (though, JPM is going to be moving out to The Wharf soon enough). I don't really like Canary Wharf, as it is a bit far from the West London clubs and restaurants. Also, living in Canary Wharf sucks, so you wouldn't want to live close enough to the office to walk to work.
Given this, in NYC, I would give the edge to MS. In London, I would go with JPM.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for all the comments guys. Helpful to hear your opinion.
I agree that it mainly depends on the group. I've been talking to some groups in both firms, and one of them just seems to offer more flexibility and gives me the chance to state my own preferences for several teams.
Also, I agree that JPM performed far better during the crisis than MS (and even GS). But the question is to what extend do I really care about short term performance... In the end, who knows what's going to happen in the next few years...
Thanks guys! Just gonna go for the best team experience!
^agreed
MS/JPM FIG (Originally Posted: 08/23/2013)
How do these two groups stack up in terms of buy-side recruiting for both FIG and non-FIG PE opportunities? Would you take these over generalist offers at "lower" BBs such as BAML/CS?
Depends on what you want to do, and frankly a lot of factors outside of your control (e.g., if you take CS generalist, you may end up getting placed in FIG regardless). Is this for full time?
Yes Sandhurst, for FT. In that case, can you speak to the PE opportunities from MS/JPM FIG?
MS FIG will have good non-FIG exit opps, JPM less so. would take either over a lower-tier firm.
Enough with this FIG pigeonhole crap. If you're good you will have lots of exit opps. CS FIG, which sucks, sends plenty of people to good MM shops every year.
...and that is probably the post that sums it up.
I would actually contradict @ricottacheese to some small extent. MS FIG will indeed get looks for non-FIG exits, but for some reason a lot of the analysts do wind up in post-banking FIG roles. It is more of a HF feeder than PE, at least relative to other groups within the firm. It also has a fairly stiff culture, it's known to be bad not merely in terms of hours, but in the way people interact. I know several people there at every level except MD; was not interested personally and I don't know of anyone who really wanted to be in that group when they were placed into it.
JPM FIG is kind of funny, it's essentially the Harvard group within the firm. There are a number of Harvard alums at the senior level, and for whatever reason, they tend to push summers toward that group. There is a disproportionate number of Harvard and HBS interns in FIG each year. Their exits (from what I have seen) tend to be broader, probably more as a result of the Harvard network being its usual far-reaching self than JPM FIG being a good platform for further opportunities. Of people I know personally, a guy who summered there as a sophomore moved over to GS FIG and went full-time there, and one got hired in the full-time cycle into BX Restructuring after his summer.
OP, sorry to hijack but it seems as if there are enough mature professionals giving out advice / sharing somewhat established opinion on the topic of best / reputable mid / lower tier BB's FIG teams.
Would you please share your view on what you think of DB/ Citi's FIG teams i.e. if they have had good placement in the past and whether their dealflow is respectable?
Of course I understand that they might not be as good as GS or maybe even JPM, just want to get a high level view on how their FIG teams stack up. It's everyone's goal to get into GS FIG provided they want to do FIG but not everyone makes the cut, hence want to seek a view on how the lesser BBs (Citi / DB / Barcap) round up. We've already discussed BAML and CS here. I have a friend at Citi who mentioned that his team (FIG) makes the bulk of the firm's overall IBD revenues but for all I know he might be BS-ing and trying to play up his repute.
Thanks for the input, all.
What about DB fig exits?
MS Vs. JPM? (Originally Posted: 02/20/2009)
I'd be curious to hear some advice as to which offer you would take, MS or JPM? Both are in NY and both are IBD. Feel free to elaborate.....if you have time
Simple...Choose the one that had the best people. Both are excellent companies and no doubt will have top notch exit ops. If you liked both equally, then I would choose JPM simply cause I think they have an easier road ahead of them.
yeah i definitely agree 100% wih aggiebanker.. you need to choose which ever one has the better people. for me, i get along great with ms people, i haven't met any JPM people so i cant say anything about them. but both are great banks in good positions compared to a lot of other firms so either one would be an amazing opportunity for you. and i also agree that yes, jpm seems to have an easier road ahead of them than ms. good luck, let us know which one you choose!
I'm sure there are numerous folks on WSO with Citi,ML,BofA,UBS,CS, or DB offers who would bite your hand off for either one of those.
There are strong arguments for both - MS is historically more prestigious but JPM's dealflow is currently unparalelled. Good luck.
Dimon & Co. has certainly been gaining ground on the prestige front recently, but as others mentioned you should base your decision on the people. Each bank has their own culture, so talk to as many people as possible and see which group you like more. Not a terrible dilemma to be in, congratulations.
go back to intro to music punk
ms
MS
Which one did you decide on?
I don't know if you saw this http://dealbreaker.com/2008/06/post-27.php but that might be a factor in your decision. Good Luck
JPM vs. MS: Offers Help (Originally Posted: 01/30/2012)
Second year lateral IBD analyst hire in NYC offices. Wouldn't mind staying in banking if I get AtoA promotion. How would you rank the two firms in terms of prestige, pay and stability?
Prestige: MS Pay: Same Stability: JPM
IMO - others feel free to differ
on a side note: are u coming from a boutique? what job category (consulting, banking, etc) are u coming from ?
prestige and perks would be ms pay is the same good decision to make why dont you share your story of how you made so other people can learn from you ?
what perks??
Prestige - MS Pay - JPM Stability - JPM Exit Ops - similar - depending on what you did exactly at your firm Benefits (is that what you mean by perks?) - MS
Benefits and perks? Really doubt you're going to see a difference.
Benefits add up - you don't notice until you dig ((its not as well publicized).
JPM has been doing pretty darned well lately. How did you like the people? Also, sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.
Prestige: Same Pay: ~Same, not as big issue for you now, but MS will continue to have issues with deferred comp structures. Stability: JPM
What benefits / perks are people talking about? Pretty sure all the big banks give similar healthcare, cabs, seamless allowance, etc...
MS is, with exceptions here and there, on a firm wide hiring freeze sans SA and last falls FT recruiting. Call BS.
i'm under the impression that JPM is more generous in terms of expense policy.
JPM vs MS is probably one of the most challenging comparisons in the industry. Decisions should therefore be based on human capital. Difference in prestige, pay and stability are negligible.
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