Dear WSO Community,
I am a finance student at a semi-target with a background of corporate finance at boutiques and private equity and I have a GPA of 3.3/4.0. Last summer, I managed to land IBD interviews for Barclays, Citi, Standchart, Rothschild, Lazard. However, I fell short of getting selected for summer even after going to the 4th/5th round and superdays. I am in my final year of studies and am contemplating applying for IBD summer 2020 at MMs and BBs again or alternatively apply full time in other areas such as Wealth Management/Private Banking/Corporate Banking at BBs.
Let's say i choose to forfeit my passion to purse IBD. Where else can I go? "where do the IBD rejects go?"
Would appreciate advice and happy to hear experiences from everyone.
- Lost Monkey
To hell.
Okay, maybe not hell, but a (former) friend of mine went to Northwestern Mutual which is pretty much the same thing.
yeah, nothing beats shitting gold in heaven
Big 4 accounting
Can confirm, I am a IBD reject currently working in Big 4 audit.
Big 4 TAS is a good stepping stone if you can't make it to IB directly. Couple years of that and an MBA could get you in.
Another thing I should keep in mind. Thank you!
There are tons of underlooked banking jobs with similar pay and better hours. Many BB and regional banks have analyst positions with highly correlated skills..
Non-certified user base of the WSO
Damn... shots fired
That's a good one!
Non Certified User Base (Me) : I guess the only way is to get more SB's for self gratification :')
So many things you can do. You young guns think that IB (or your first or any job) defines you. You'll learn it doesn't. Consider it from a different angle. What do you really like about IB? If it's the money, you can get there many different ways. If it's a road to something else, you may want to start down that path directly. If you really wanted to do IB as a career, get something finance related at a F500. Work your butt off and do a great job. Get a MBA forma solid school (doesn't have to be M7) and reset for IB recruiting. Come in as an associate and go from there.
This.
The world is your oyster. I was definitely one of those kids who didn't get in, but really wanted to (if only WSO had been around...) Even in my day it was very competitive since tech was not hot yet and finance was...Of the 400 kids applying, the same 20 got all of the interviews and the same 10 got all of the offers and the rest of us had scraps (this does not include connected types who didn't do the standard process).
How many of the 20 are still in banking today? Very very few. I'd guess 5 or less. Some have done very well and moved up in PE/HF but most have left the industry (finance) for good. Some went to law school, med school, industry, corporate, started businesses, IT, you name it.
Rest assured to anyone on this site: Finance still pays well, very well, especially as a junior. But is a former shadow of itself. You will most likely not get filthy rich sitting in a bank or in HF/PE anymore (that was the promise when I was in college and recruiting). Fees/comp especially at mid and senior levels is way down at the former and there are too many of the latter such that its tough to move up and returns have been subpar, especially in most HFs and there is lots of fee pressure from investors.
Sure you can beat the odds and make it, no doubt. But you can do that in a lot of places and not in finance. Otherwise much of the point of a junior role in finance/banking is to learn, earn, move up/out, network and (if you stay) get a relatively comfortable life making a few hundred grand pushing paper around (that is really what most of what we do is in the grand scheme of things.)
Personally, I didn't get in, so I traveled, studied more, stumbled into PE in Asia (not a direct shop) and took it from there. Most don't get in, OP, so if it doesn't work you can find another way to get in or do/discover something else that you will hopefully enjoy/be good at.
Good Luck
Congratulations on your PE opportunity in Asia and thank you for your advice, it is most reassuring to hear.
There are days that when I benchmark myself against my peers and you get slapped with that inferiority complex. I personally believe that as long as I have done my best, there's nothing else I could have done. ie: Coffee Chats, IBD Interview Preparations.. sometimes it just boils down to that stroke of luck at the final round of interviews.
Really love your advice, I will keep an open mind. All the best to you!
I think what I like about IB would be the strategies and deal-making action, was inspired after reading a couple of books and previous internships. I enjoyed what I did. However, I believe you're right. Doing corporate strategy/finance from the firm's pov should be an exciting one as well. I will definitely explore this option. Thank you!
Cool!
Double post
honestly, think about whether careers in finance is something that is fulfilling. these are more often than sometimes pretty dull jobs.
if you still want to pursue, then i'd echo above that big 4 and other related fields asset management as such might be worth looking at.
I would suggest Asset/Wealth at JPM, could do a two year stint and then apply for their JA (Junior Analyst) program for IBD. Knew a few guys who did that and are now Associates in banking.
Must've been dumb if they went into the Junior Analyst program after two years in PWM / AM... you know that's starting at A0, right?
Yes, I know lol they're my friends who are all exiting to MM PE and MF end of the summer. It's worth in the long-term rather than taking your CFA or going to B-School.
Could probably internal lateral sooner than two years. Seems like moving into IB from other divisions is pretty common at JPM.
Comp/Experience is fairly close to A1 (
Although its AWM, they still pay well. I thought about it before, just that 1) I would prefer IBD as I feel it presents a better set of exit ops 2) Read in WSO that this scenarios is highly unlikely
I will keep this in mind! Thank you, would you say the other banks other than JPM do lateral highers as well?
I would say JP definitely has the most opportunities for lateral spots simply because of its size and amount of analysts leaving within 2 years. I knew a guy at BAML who went from accounting to corp. banking (I know not IB, but it may still be possible).
In addition, a few PWM/AWM people have moved into IR/Marketing roles at some MFs/top HFs/PE shops making 250k, not too bad of an exit.
Corp M&A
Very similar situation to you when I was looking at summers.. Nothing landed and had to take a corpfin/F500 LDP internship. FT this year was even tougher without a summer, and wound up at a large fin services company doing stock surveillance/market watching for public clients (think Thomson Reuters, NASDAQ). Took CFA L1 this year and probably looking to jump to AM in a couple years. IBD seems great but a couple strings became attached and that changes your perspective on 90-100 hr weeks and all-nighters. I'm in a great spot to continue networking and growing connections and if I really wanted to go IBD, I could reasonably make a shot at re-networking and moving into a team or niche role in the sector I cover. I don't really think I want to assume traditional IBD and probably won't and don't regret it.
Thanks for sharing your personal experiences, it's reassuring to know that someone is going through the same thing I am. I will keep my options open on the paths to take.
Wishing you the best!
Why not do FT in MM shops? There are still FT spots that are unfilled so I wouldn't give up on IBD just yet. If you really want to end up there then try something that translates well (e.g. corporate banking, Big4 TAS, ops restructuring, etc.). Don't give up man, what you've accomplished so far is definitely something to be proud of.
Thank you for your kind words. I was interviewing with an MM for an offcycle IBD role and they were known to convert, but didn't hear from them after the final round with the head of the region. I think Big 4 TAS or corporate strategy/finance at a f500 company seems to be one of the more attractive options left for me.
I can recommend joining some type of finance rotation/business analyst program at a fortune 500 company, completing the program, and then applying to b-school after your two year stint. I just started one of these at a fortune 100 company and absolutely love it, great pay and work life balance. A decent amount of ppl move on to top 10 bschools and transition to IB/MC. However, many stay within the company if they see they are on a fast track towards management and executive levels.
If you want the money now, there is no reason to give up on IB - but be prepared to be rejected and just have other options available.
PM me if curious about the programs I'm mentioning
Thank you for sharing, it is indeed one of the options that I am currently considering. Will drop you a PM, would love to know more about your work.
Equity research. Didn’t do well on my MS m&a interview. In equity research and hopefully land at a BB desk after a few years
just curious, how easy is it to go from ER to IB? (could be for MS but if you could shed some light across the street, that would be great)
At the junior level it is very possible because the quality of work you produce in IB is much higher than in ER because the teams are larger and you tend to have more time before publishing/sending out notes/pitchbooks.
Main barrier is very limited headcount, for every vacancy there are multiple ER professionals who have recently lost their job attempting to re enter the market.
Senior level is much rarer because of how much industry knowledge ER seniors need to have.
Modelling is also more complex in a good IB Group, in ER you should be constructing very simple operating models for buy side clients to use as a starting point and you would never model LBOs and very rarely Merger Models.
You’ll be fine. I was one of the ones that didn’t make it into IBD...for a flurry of reasons. Came from a background that didn’t exactly prep me well for the recruiting process and by the time I figured out I wanted banking the people who’d been planning it for years were far ahead of me in the process. My friends got internships and eventually banking jobs at GS and other bulge brackets, and the inferiority complex is real. I had banking as the gold standard and felt like a failure. I was getting paid half of what they were and thought I was toast. Now four years later after busting my ass and many detours I’m in strategy and business intel at a bulge bracket. Very few of them are still in finance at all they burned out...and my comp caught up eventually (close at least, once you’re well into six figures an extra 10-20% comp for twice the work is a poor trade off), plus I’ve worked half the hours they did this entire time so I actually have time to travel and spend the money. It sucks pretty bad for awhile but if you keep working hard it works out anyways. Success is determined by what you put into it not your title.
It gets real interesting when peers who never did IB start making orders of magnitude more than your peers in IB. Might be a good idea to know what those are before fighting for the losing horse....
I'm going through whatever you mentioned rn, all my friends are doing really well and are in IBD internships at BBs. Honestly feels pretty bad man - inferiority complex.
" Success is determined by what you put into it not your title." Well said! Will keep that in mind moving forward, wishing you the best in your future endeavors.
I would definitely not lose out on hope if your goal is to get into IB, though it would be prudent to level set on the note that it might be challenging (not impossible) to get into a Bulge Bracket. As others have mentioned, MM firms generally have spots on Ad hoc basis as do boutiques, so networking is definitely a good route if the traditional path hasn't worked out. Usually I've seen folks who networked efficiently over a period of 3-6 months usually landed something as long as their net was cast wide. From there it's alot easier to lateral given the similarity in skillsets (would definitely look to read up on Sil 's background and lateral guide. Sans banking, any form of role that involves some kind of analysis work like valuations, Big 4 TAS, Big 4 corporate finance, F500 corporate development, boutique asset management (though I'd argue that this is a nice spot to have regardless!) should position you well.
All this said, it's definitely not a real issue if you strike out on IB as your first job out of college. The great thing about a career is that it's not linear most of the time, and it's a very long period . I was speaking to my VP during my last few months at my old firm and he told me that of his class, perhaps a third are still in banking from what he's seen, with others moving on to a litany of different roles (i.e., Sales; product management; strategy; F500 roles in corp dev; strat; ops, etc.). My philosophy is always that the bright and driven individual's CV will always even out over a larger sample size, even if it's not reflected immediately at the outset. Put in a good faith effort to achieve the goal that you're looking to target, and if you don't reach it, there's no doubt that you will have put yourself in an excellent position for the next move, or towards a top MBA to help you grease the skids and get to IB ultimately. Best of luck.
Thank you good sir for your time and advice, you are most kind. Reassuring indeed. I'll keep working hard and moving forward!
a number of options including:
All of these are pretty solid places to start a career and will position you well for a top 10 MBA. With a bit of networking, you might even be able to break straight into IB after a few years in one of these roles and could potentially skip an MBA altogether
I was under the impression that RX consulting shops were difficult to get into
The financial restructuring firms like Evercore and PJT are super difficult to get into, but operational restructuring is handled by firms like Alix Partners and A&M - these are much easier to get into. They are essentially Tier 2/3 consulting firms that focus on operational restructuring, although I think Alix Partners is trying to build out a more general consulting practice through their 'Enterprise Improvement' arm
F500
In the big picture, IB is a very, very small niche of banking and finance as a whole. It is also strongly tied to location - i.e. most banks are located in very few areas. In some countries, they're pretty much localized to one or two different cities, but more often than not only one.
People here love to shit on big 4, but they're pretty much in every mid-sized city, all over the world. They also get a ton of the top students at non-target schools, because they're some of the few in the sector that actually show up at career-fairs, other than local retail banks and similar.
I think it's important to remember that a ton of students don't go to Big 4 or F500 corporate finance just because they were rejected from high-finance like IB. Many go with those firms because they were the ones that did the OCR at their schools, and have a good brand name, along with having offices in their cities. I'd say that members here on WSO are much more informed and aware of IB, then the general population of econ and finance students.
Depends how you define top students.
I’ve heard big 4 takes anybody with a GPA over 3.3 in most places.
You can’t debate the pay is terrible given the hours and lack of interesting work (audit or tax)
I think the one thing I have mentioned and some others have wisely alluded to is this...
In the long run the vast majority of IBD people become IBD rejects. Ie. for various reasons get spit out of the industry. It's either a bad economic cycle, the banks cut, dealflow is low, the person hates it, isn't good at his/her job, family/health reasons etc etc etc.
For every MD one sees in IBD there are many many of those who have fallen (or jumped off). Finally, do not forget the element of luck in all of this.
We all seem to forget luck and those that have made it in this industry (across verticals and asset classes) are above all, survivors. That MD you see? He/she was not always a superstar. They were once junior and needed some breaks, like a good boss, or a good market, or to be protected/avoid the axe/layoffs, someone to stick a neck out and promote them/drag them up, work in a good group with solid deal flow and make revenue etc etc etc. Think about a 45 year old guy in some coverage group. If he started out of college, that's 23 years in the industry. He/she has survived the dot com bust, the Asian Financial Crisis, the Global Financial Crisis, European Sovereign Debt Crisis, a bad market for their industry, various layoffs, political maneuverings, downsizings/upsizings, restructurings, long nights, family/friends issues, health issues stress, changing landscapes etc.
Of course some of the above can be termed as sacrifices as well. And alongside luck you need to sacrifice a lot. Few, in the end are willing to do so and even fewer find fulfillment in it (this is not me saying don't try to be MD or whatever - just that there is a price that has to be paid).
Good Luck
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