Who do you think won the VP debate and why?
I think we can all agree that this was infinitely better than the first Presidential debate. Both participants were more well-spoken than their Presidential pairings and had better responses to the questions asked of them.
For me Pence won it, I was a big fan of his calm and collected demeanor presenting as an exact opposite to Trump's personality. Kind of made me wish the ticket was flipped, I think way more people would be respectful of Pence. In my opinion he controlled the pacing of the debate the way it should be done, going over time just slightly and interjecting with points/questions rarely but effectively rather than constantly interjecting and chattering nonstop like an angry monkey.
Kamala was more alive than Biden so I guess that's sort of a win? I thought it was pretty lame that she's still dragging the "Trump won't disavow white supremacy" narrative. It takes 2 seconds to find 19 separate occasions of him doing just that and the Proud Boys are not even remotely white supremacist. She just outright lied on the fracking point, CNN literally quoted her saying "There’s no question I’m in favor of banning fracking" just last year in a town hall. Shying away from the SCOTUS packing question with a clumsy misdirect also didn't do the Democrat's any favors. I feel like her personality just came across condescending with the tone of her "I won't be lectured" and "Excuse me I'm speaking" retorts.
Trump disavows white supremacy 19 times
Biden and Kamala saying they're anti-fracking
I think Pence was the clear winner here. I particularly enjoyed his closing statement where he emphasized that the news does not depict reality, and that he is hopeful people can unite in the future to create a better country. I was disappointed when Harris used that question to shoehorn Joe Biden’s candidacy in one last time, where Pence largely left Trump out of his statement.
Including that clip here, because I think you're spot on. I feel like both candidate's answers painted a pretty clear picture of each party's stance on partisan division.
Honestly a lot of people would be voting for Pence not Trump.
Pence wouldn't make it through a GOP primary, either when the Republican party was normal or in its new populist grievance form. He has less charisma than mayonnaise and like most people in the Trump orbit, he is not an A player.
Unity? He is on the ticket with a man who calls my city a "shithole", openly ignores and criticizes "blue states" (imagine the flack a Dem would take if they openly mocked rural red America the way that the GOP hates cities), and thinks I am "human scum" for being a former Republican that now criticizes the GOP. Fuck him.
Pence has perfected the politician act to tell you what you want to hear, while knifing you in the back. Case in point, both he and Trump have now dodged the Roe v Wade question. That's been Pence's hallmark issue his entire political career! Of course he wants a total and complete ban on abortion in Indiana - have the balls to say it and let the American people decide. At least Dems don't shy away from claiming they're pro-choice (and yes, Kamala dodged a bunch of questions as well).
This has nothing to do with who is the better debater. These are all reasons you support / don’t support Pence and the GOP.
Democrats do openly mock rural America so I'm not sure where you're going with this. Depending on which city you're talking about (because I've lived in several of the major ones) Trump's right to call parts of several of them shitholes. Would be interested where you're pulling the "human scum" quote from because if it's from him on the campaign trail then I'd say that's fair game with how many times Democrats regularly call all Trump supporters nazis, facists, racists, misogynists, bigots, white supremacists, etc.
It's not dodging for Roe vs Wade because that would be a question for the justices to rule on, not the President or VP. ACB, while clearly Catholic and pro-life, is a staunch believer in stare decisis meaning she is rarely in favor of trying to overturn prior established court precedent. She has gone on record with the following: "I don't think the core case, Roe's core holding that women have a right to an abortion, I don't think that would change," she said in a talk at Jacksonville University, per NPR. "But I think the question of whether people can get very late-term abortions, you know, how many restrictions can be put on clinics, I think that will change." Sounds to me like she'd at worst be in favor of a compromise, which in a bipartisan government is the best you can hope for.
Pence 100%.
It was a very tight debate for the first 30 minutes with slight advantage for Pence. But then Kamala had some sort of meltdown. Pence mostly dominated after.
More on the why:
1) Pence knew when to use facts and logic and when to use soundbites. Kamala did not.
2) Pence projected a very presidential image that the real POTUS could not. Kamala came off as a whiny and passive-aggressive.
3) Pence clearly read the "flow" of the debate. Kamala sounded a little tone deaf.
4) Pence knew exactly why he was there - to win back independents Trump lost in the Presidential debate. Kamala seemed conflicted btw trying to energize young voters and the "woke" crowd vs. appealing to independents.
She was a DA so she can definitely tell when the heat is on and the jury is turning against her. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on who you support), she also lacks the self-control to pilot herself out of those gullies and instead turns to weak emotional appeals that lack substance. That might work in CA, but not the entire country.
I'd call them catch phrases and soundbites rather than weak emotional appeals.
I was very disappointed because Kamala showed the aggression of a former DA but not the logic of one. I doubt that she was that terrible of a DA. My hypothesis is that years of being a politician diluted her debating skills.
But more concerning issue is that national politics seems to be heading that way where debating skills aren't important but creating soundbites are. Republicans started that with Christian conservatives and gun owners back in the days. Democrats picked it up and used to "energize" the woke. And now everyone is doing it.
OP's stance: Pence won because of how he said things and how pleasant it sounds like rather than what was actually said. Gets 7 SB. I guess this encapsulates American politics in a nutshell.
Hmmm?
Pence won the debate because he was able to achieve his goal of filling in the gaps of what Trump lacks. It wasn't sure what Kamala was trying to achieve.
Also, she couldn't properly rebut many of Pence's points. Lot of his evidences were cherrypicked so Kamala could have easily pointed them out and turn it around Pence. Yet she failed (or she deliberateltnchose not to) to do so on many occasions. And Pence made the kill with his whole "You're entitled to your opinions but not the facts" rhetoric.
In any debate, that's not a good thing.
I think it was pretty much a draw. Pence was better with staying on message and Harris was better at getting her points across, seeming approachable, and you know...not being utterly full of shit. Republicans aren't going to like Harris and Democrats aren't going to like Pence.
More importantly, no one was thinking they were going to vote for one candidate a few weeks ago and a different candidate this morning because of a VP debate that was more or less eventless other than a fly sitting on Pence's head.
I disagree. I think this debate was potentially indicative of the future POTUS, given the age and health of the two current candidates, and that may hold significant weight with some voters. As a somewhat casual voter who did not pay much attention to US politics prior to the start of the presidential campaign, this was the first time I saw both Harris and Pence debate. I thought both were strong at times, but I was impressed overall by Pence's collected demeanor, and bipartisan closing statement. This solid performance may resonate with any on-the-fence voters who are left.
Who tf is even on the fence? I'd bet my left nut not a single person changed their view after last night. Both lied and gave non-answers throughout the debate (Pence dodged way more - undeniable). Totally a non-event that'll be clouded with metaphors about the fly on Pence's head. And susan page was absolute dogshit.
I disagree. Pence was much more steady and clear with his points and seemed more approachable than he ever has before. And while Democrats usually sound more compassionate and empathetic, I'd say last night's debate was a draw in that category (even if Pence is full of shit).
Harris was condescending (defining debt and bounty, "don't lecture me" when Pence was not in any way lecturing). Pence is unexciting and I doubt many people would want to grab a beer with the guy, but who would want to go up and chat with Kamala?
It’s easy for him to calmly deliver his spiels when he is lying through his teeth. they really need onscreen real-time fact-checking because a lot of the more impressionable mouth breathing viewers aren’t going to go and check Politico the next day.
I agree with others that I don’t think it was her words that people found condescending but the fact that a non-demure woman was saying them. Asking Pence (who has always had a knack for interrupting) to let her speak is not combative or overemotional ffs.
Haha when you are calling this a draw and not a convincing win for Harris...going to need to discount that lol.
Well, I'm not a hack and I'm fully capable of being objective. I call it like I see it, and I think it was more or less a draw. Neither was fantastic, neither was utterly embarrassing, and both got their points across.
How you can say Kamala seemed approachable blows my mind. Her mannerisms, personality, and composure was beyond unlikable.
I didn't have a problem with any of them. What specifically bothered you?
Her smug laughing and smirking and bizarre reaction to Pence's 'interrupting' that she herself did. Her general attitude throughout the debate was tough to watch. If your a supporter and want to say shes 'tough' or a 'badass' that's one thing but approachable? No way
This is all the needs to be said. Nothing surprising happened, both hit all their rehearsed talking points (some more honest than others), no minds will be changed, no undecided voters will be swayed. I love how so many are claiming this to be a Pence victory because he was able to string together coherent sentences without throwing a temper tantrum every 5 minutes.
Your are right, there was a very low standard for Pence
I think most of us are guilty of very unconscious misogyny in that we hold women candidates (across the board, from Hilary/Kamala to Palin to whoever) to a higher standard of rationality/unemotionality when they're debating. Kamala was more condescending than Pence, but he had his moments as well ("Just Not True", shaking head as well) and the gap wasn't thaaat big, but that's all that's focused on with Kamala. I have no perspective on who won, & I'm not American and don't really care, this kind of thing happens in my country too
I don't think your first point is fair, there are plenty of women who are able to be forceful and show emotion without coming across as irrational or condescending. Look at Tulsi Gabbard, she's honestly a perfect example of what how a stateswoman carries herself in my opinion. As much as I dislike her, Hilary Clinton also had plenty of moments where she presented as a strong female candidate. She's gone off the rails since she lost, but when she was secretary of state her public speaking was leaps and bounds ahead of almost anything you'll find from the likes of Kamala Harris or Sarah Palin.
Tulsi and Hillary are terrible examples of the average woman
Both dodged questions all night, pence more so than Harris but pence did a better job of (hypocritically) calling the other person out for dodging the question
pence also interrupted Harris pretty much non-stop, so I’m not sure why Harris is getting the hate for ‘getting an attitude’ and standing up for herself.
With that said, I suppose Pence “won”.. in the sense that, he wasn’t a complete dumpster fire like Trump
Eh. I'd say most people know exactly why.
Yea.. you right
Exactly.
It was really the difference in the tone of their voices. Kamala had a bit of a shrill voice that just made it look worse than it really is. Human psychology man.
The victim complex liberals create for themselves and society is quite interesting to witness.
Like objectively speaking Harris visibly reacts in an angry manner to being challenged, it was evident when Tulsi Gabbard challenged her record in the dem debates and it was evident last night.
But your victim complex dictates that people must be reacting to her identity, and anyone pointing out her negative reactions are racist or misogynistic.
Truly comical levels of projection and straw man arguing here.
We're back, baby
You literally said your perspective is solely based on what she looks like.
You are right in that people are not comfortable when a woman (black woman) is assertive.
PENCE = ICE MAN
Honestly am surprised that this site has unanimously decided on Pence. Wonder if that would have been different if Doug was the one providing his wife’s answers instead. I’m male, if that matters and which sadly needs my saying
You shouldn't be. This site leans right, and after Trump's dumpster fire of a performance, WSO is hungry to celebrate a functional Republican performance.
One can tilt right and still acknowledge that the Trump administration is corrupt and unfit for leading this country - e.g. George Conway/the Lincoln Project, good ol Mitt, etc. just like how a lot of Dems roll their eyes at Bernie and AOC
A bipartisan structure will always be needed imo but how anyone can support that circus, I don’t know
Idk man. I lean right and I'm supporting Biden.
Not a fan of Trump and his policies. I'm also not a big fan of Pence. I was actually hoping that Harris would win. But she lost IMO. It was a draw at best for her.
i expected much better from Kamala and was disappointed in her performance....not "Presidential"...too easily triggered emotionally
on the flip side, Pence refused to answer a single question asked of him and lied thru his teeth the entire night....also not "Presidential"
they both lost
Like how Kamala didn't answer what their Covid plan was, if they'll pack the court, didn't respond to her prosecution of black people, didn't respond to their constant flip flop on the GND, and went on some incoherent tangent about her family tree that wasn't even relevant?
Pence interrupted and went over time pretty often. Also white faced lies around COVID, Trump loving all American people, international relations, environment, healthcare - tbh I felt bad for Harris cause 60 seconds isn’t enough time to rebuttal all the lies at once.
I'm watching the highlights to see what most people will be seeing this morning...really wish Pence was running for POTUS.
These debates tend to be an eye of the beholder kind of thing, so I've never believed the question of who "won"...there's no scorecard.
Having said that I disagree that Pence "won". His ticket is behind in the polls and this month has been a disaster for them. Pence needed to do better than OK, and the talk is more about his pink eye and the fly. His constant interruptions of Harris likely didn't score points with women. The GOP ticket is losing seniors and women.
So while the debate itself was pretty close, Pence didn't help his ticket. Harris just needed to break even, and she did that.
Alright, "excuse me I'm speaking" is "condescending? LOL why is this country like this. Pence took the rules and threw them completely out of the window. TBH, I feel bad for Pence's wife, because he treated both those women like his own doormat. I didn't know Pence had some fuckboy in him, but the guy straight trolled his way through the entire debate. I kept wondering why there isn't automatic disqualification when someone completely ignores the rules constantly. Kamala won for me just on this technicality.
What's the deal with Pence and his wife? I missed the very beginning of the debate and am not all that familiar with his background so I'm not sure if that has something to do with it.
Pence refers to his wife as "Mother" and refuses to be alone in a room with another woman because of temptation or something.
They're utter religious weirdos, but alas, so are many Americans.
I think Pence won the debate by a bit, but to be honest I was expecting him to win by a lot. I think they were pretty equal for the most part in the points they made, or at least in trying to make their views sound good. I'd have to knock Pence for having long answers and interrupting, and give him props for being calm and essentially providing a cool, collected face to the Trump presidency (not an easy task). I would knock Kamala for providing a non-answer to the Supreme Court packing answer (this might be me, but I care about this issue quite a bit), and give her props for shedding the radical left image that Trump and Pence are trying to give the Biden campaign. VP candidate Kamala definitely seems better than DNC candidate Kamala in that regard, at least in my view. Lastly, I thought that Pence had a much better final statement.
Also OP, I think that the issue with the Proud Boys statement is that it's such an easy question, pretty much a lay up, but Trump missed it. All he had to say was that he does not support the Proud Boys' message. He has a habit of missing easy questions, like how he talked about John Lewis not attending his inauguration when asked if he thought John Lewis was a hero in the Axios interview. Although it's a bit unfair, these easy misses definitely give a bad impression to a lot of people, and there isn't really a good excuse for giving such bad answers in the moment regardless of what he has said in the past.
Loled at Harris "I won't be lectured" line. Thats literally what debates are for.
Debates are, quite literally, not lectures.
Try again.
Kamala won by far. I'll give it to Pence, his closing remark was really good. But, Pence kept interrupting Kamala. Also no no one is going to remember anything but the fly
.
It wasn't an overt disaster for both sides, yet I don't think it's the miracle that Trump needed. Pence sounded presentable and collected, a far cry from the chaos Trump brings to the stage. But at the same time, he was just wrong in some statements. There were some moments like the Obama pandemic team or the part where he took credit for cleaner air than in the past where his answers were just categorically wrong. I don't think Kamala killed it or was particularly bad, I just don't think she had a performance that you'd call a victory.
But I have a feeling there might be a small chance this debate pushes more suburban women towards Biden. Which would just be a disaster.
I think that Pence won but I agree thay it wasn't a miracle that Trump needs. It would.maybe move the polls by 1% but otherwise everything else would be the same.
For one, I think Pence won because he got away woth his cherry picking. It was completely on Kamala for failing to point out the real wholistic facts on why the air being clean has nothing to do with Trump and how the Swine flu response was well handled because it killed much less people and the economy wasn't shut down. Such low hanging fruits that Kamala should've made clear. Yet she relied on soundbites....
The swine flu was not well handled at all, it was just a vastly less lethal disease. If they had treated Covid like the swine flu we would have significantly more deaths than we currently do just going off the the current Covid death rate relative to the sheer # of infections. With you on the clean air piece being mostly fluff, although Pence was also correct that the US has made more strides lowering overall emissions with the shift to natural gas than many of the countries that actually signed onto the Paris Climate Accords. Climate stuff is kind of a wash imo because of how stupidly politicized it's become, humans clearly contribute to climate change but the primary drivers are developing nations and even if it were possible to stop using fossil fuels altogether for developed nations it would have a negligible impact over the changes set to happen over the next ~100 years. I'd personally prefer to see more subsidies going towards renewables over fossil fuels in order to incentivize more of a shift in innovation so we can attack it on the front end, but that's another debate for another time.
A few reactions to the debate:
The "establishment" got an enormous tax cut out of the deal among other things, so no trump hasn't "challenged" them in the way that phrase is usually intended.
Literally everyone got a tax cut. He's absolutely challenging the establishment seeing as how he's managed to be the only President in nearly 40 years to not start a new war despite the continued bipartisan push and support for foreign armed conflicts.
This is a completely vote for the jersey topic. All conservatives are going to think Pence won while all liberals ( the 3 of them on here) will think Harris won.
I think they both performed well. I have no idea how truthful either one of them was, as they all probably stretch the truth. I do not trust Pence at all and he is probably one of those people who could actually contract COVID by kissing the ass of an infected person. He has to defend the indefensible. He somehow had to spin how the US response was admirable when it has been a total disaster from the beginning. Then he had to somehow spin the gathering for the justice into something normal. I will paraphrase his comments:, Do As We Say And Not As We Do. This guy is the head of the corona virus task force!
I don’t see how a single person can like Kamala Harris. And this coming from someone who doesn’t like either candidate and is in the middle.
She seems completely pompous and entitled. Especially her body language and facial expressions. Zero racial or the fact she’s a woman. Just simply can not stand her.
The constant fake smiling and laughing is what gets me. It's literally Hilary 2.0, coupled with a an even worse background in terms of policy support and unethical law enforcement practices. Whoever coaches her on body language for public speaking needs to be fired, and if it's her natural way of presenting then she needs to hire someone to coach her to do the opposite.
It was close but I think Kamala came out slightly ahead because Pence dodged questions like a mofo and went past his allotted time over and over again, making it clear to even the casual politics followers that I was watching the debate with that he had basically pre-planned all of his talking points and answers. I don’t think this debate moves the needle very much either way, especially after the entertaining brawl that was the first Biden-Trump debate.
First of all, hilarious that you hunted down two of my comments in separate threads to reply directly to in addition to this in less than 5 minutes. Second, acting like Pence went over his time somehow significantly is utter nonsense when Kamala did the exact same thing. CNN literally kept time and showed the difference in their speaking time was 3 seconds. Maybe you just had a hard time telling since Pence is actually measured in his speech and takes his time controlling the pacing of a discussion rather than coming across rushed and unprepared shooting for emotional one-liners like Kamala. And lastly, as for going into a debate with all his talking points in mind and answers to specific types of questions ready to go is a bad thing... That's called being prepared...? It's literally the point of debate preparation. How in the world are you a lawyer and not know this?
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