Hate may be too strong a word, but from what I have gathered, it seems that some investment bankers hold contempt for commercial bankers but not corporate bankers. I've always understood these two types to work the same job but for different-sized companies.
Is size of the business that important?
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Both are shit... there is no difference between the two... both are useless..
Yup. Small to medium companies don't need LOCs or term loans. Makes sense.
Duh.
Because Ibankers are at the top of the food chain, and the others are not.
exactly what i am thinking when i see my counterpart at a bank meeting. hey analyst! i have a question bring the mic over here!
Some I-Bankers like to hate on everyone who's not in their scotch-sipping clique at the Harvard Club. Then us folks in sales and trading laugh at them when the most pompous idiots embarass themselves (which happens often). :-)
Foolishly like buying CDO's on 10 to 1 leverage for their own books? Oh wait those are traders.
Not much of a difference in my view between the two. Its like saying why do bankers hate on retail bankers but not bank tellers. Sure some retail bankers sit at cubes and sell CDs and life insurance to senior citizens as opposed to standing behind the teller's window... but its really all the same.
Those traders don't exist anymore. The bankers who put together the financing for some stupid real estate deals, on the other hand...
Damn, they were killed?
Transferable skills baby.
Finance War! Let's go!!
Bring on the pain!
shits about to get real!
Because commercial bankers are still peddlin' fucking lock boxes in certain parts of the country. Seriously, lockboxes? Fuckin' joke.
Okay thanks for the insight guys. Gosh, I've been searching for this one thread unsuccessfully, which articulated my thoughts - something along the lines of "Comm. Banking LOL. Corp. Banking is decent. IBD owns all."
Still, my tendency for CB is more bulish
Lets just all be grateful we're not in corporate law.
ummm... commercial banking is just retail banking for businesses.
and what do you mean by corporate bankers? I don't know what you are intending to say, but "corporate" banking could refer to (especially for Deutsche Bank) M&A, restructring, and other services grouped together what is known as "investment banking" in the U.S. (really should be known as "Corporate Financial Services" - really shows you how dumb/misinformed/poorly understood the industry is)
Ibankers are not at the top of the food-chain... they are bitches of their associates, who are bitches of the MD, who is a bitch of his client, and the client (if public or looking to go public) will ultimately become a bitch of the investor/shareholder.
shareholders always have the power in the end! now, how optimistic of an outlook is that? =)
comment deleted
corporate banking is commercial banking for large cap companies
nope...corporate banking and commercial banking is the same thing if you are referring to retail banking for large cap companies.
however, "corporate finance" services/banking (EU) is something entirely different, equatable to "investment banking" in the U.S.
I've worked in commercial banking and now in investment banking, and as much as you pompous assholes would like to think otherwise, they're not that different...
Can you elaborate on that a little?
^^^haha! Good post oneman!
corporate banking, commercial banking both shit. If I was forced to work in those areas I would have to suck a lot of dick. Like deep throat style. Hardcore really.
Why chubbybunny? Please discuss a little deeper on that.
They dont have sour patch kids in their pantry, only that swedish fish shit
.
Wow, are you serious?
IBD is absolutely miles above corporate banking.
1- I couldnt care less about any of this per hour bullshit, if you want to make more per hour go work at the hospital changing bed pans as a nurse. Thats just shit people tell themselves to feel good about their income. Your hourly rate doesn't pay the bills and sure as hell doesn't accumulate in the bank so, save that bullshit for someone dumb enough to buy it. I think in terms of absolute dollars, as does the rest of the world.
2- look at an IB lifer vs. a CB lifer... its a VERY different lifestyle. You're not even in the same continent, much less zip code in terms of compensation or network. And that little thing that supposedly no one is supposed to give a shit about, but everyone undoubtedly does: prestige.
3- if you're logic is "ok, it is different as a lifer but at the analyst level its the same" thats a losing battle too. At the analyst level it is absolutely different... first you make more. Next you have a much more sought after skill set (even though its supposedly the same as the CB analyst). CB analysts aren't doing M&A and they aren't doing LBOs... so you will never be in the upper echelons on high finance. Your concept of exit ops is going to work for one of your clients in their CorpFin office. Take two identical twins, one goes into IBD the other into CB. After 2 years, the IBD twin will have gotten 4 years worth of experience vs. the CB banker (considering he works about twice as much). The CB twin will have to work for 2 more years before he can hold his own vs. his brother. By then the IBD twin's lead will have stretched to 4 years.
Everyone has different priorities. Its no secret that commercial banking is the less ambitious road as compared to investment banking. Its less competitive to get in, you make less money and you work less (i.e. get less experience). Some people don't want to commit X% of their lives to their careers, its less of a priority for them and accordingly they choose a less demanding (and less rewarding) career path. To each his own.
I have friends in commercial banking, and they are just mentally not on the same wavelength. They don't want to work the hours I work, they're ok making the money they make. They're not vying for jobs in the top 5% of wall street. They live a good lifestyle and what they have suits them just fine. Similarly, I've got friends who went to no name state schools... they weren't worried about excelling academically and they weren't staying up all night preparing for interviews.
Some people have different priorities and some people just couldnt get into Ivey league schools and couldn't get into investment banking. Its a mixed bag. But to say they are nearly the same is pure bullshit.
the fact that none of you know the difference to me is proof that none of you actually work within the industry. CB is under the same umbrella as "retail banking services"
IBD is under "corporate financial services"
really there are 3 areas of finance
Retail (working at your local bank, savings/loans/deposits, maybe having private reps for high net worths (this becomes PWM). corporate banking is RETAIL, just imagine all that stuff but for huge companies (large cap)
Corporate financial services (debt restructuring, raising capital for IPOs, M&A, equity restructuring, sell-side equity research, (sales & trading services that 'support' these businesses) these are your BB's.
Investments (the buy-side; completely different ball game, PE, HF, MF, institutional Asset Management, etc. recruits from "sell-side"
Because IBankers work with corporate bankers, but not commercial bankers.
The self-importance is ever present though.
^ haha, true =)
Because their jobs are jokes. Commercial and corporate bankers are just one small step above retail bankers, all they do is keep a checking account for businesses basically. Might as well work the day shift at Wachovia.
Marcus is an angry banker.
Havent had a day off in over 2 months, so angry perhaps... but delusional, not so much. I tell it like it is.
I'm watching March Madness drinking beer and eating pizza. Enjoy your "prestige"
haha!! touché mr. wolfpack
Lmao owned. But seriously, I'm trying to learn more about this area since the websites are fairly vague and people are prestige whores. One guy I spoke with on this site said that Corp banking is similar to DCM/ECM bankers and also do work on project financing and loan syndications. Can you confirm this at all?
Beer, pizza, march madness and WSO... sounds like a party you don't want to miss.
The prestige-whore argument only works for people who didn't have the white shoe doors slammed in their face while they were trying to eek by. You don't have much credibility downplaying the importance of prestige having been rejected by it.
That being said, the comparison was never about prestige. Good job not being able to provide one credible example backing up your earlier claims.
wait can we get something straight
IBD is not a prestigious job. it never was and never will be.
i don't think this needs any explaining. if it does, than you really are a monkey and you belong exactly where you are =)
Modeling does prepare you for buyside, though we can argue buyside isn't prestigious either, which it really isn't.
however, it sucks if ur place uses templates.
my elite boutique builds everything from scratch and if doing an entire 2 week model from scratch is just inputting numbers, then surgery is just cutting shit with a knife and flying a plane is even easier, its just pressing buttons on a control.
i probably have 20 discussions about these models with ceos and the best bankers ever known in the industry so yea u definitely learn more than some idiot memorizing heart valves so he can know which thing to cut in a surgery. BOORING.
lifeisamystery - sorry u didn't get an offer, i didn't like how ugly u were in interview bro :(
...did you just compare modeling on excel with open heart surgery and being a banker to being a pilot?
and i actually did interview with a BB IBD firm. the interviewer told me he was depressed and had tried to leave his job twice, and kept on shotgunning cups of coffee during the interview from not sleeping in a week
it was awkward
so i got an offer at BlackRock where i did stuff i actually like, worked good hours, and made more $ than you while getting 8 hours of sleep a night.
anyways, sounds like fun bro -- keep workin on those excel models with all your attractive boutique bankers
My cousin who never graduated college earns about $50/hour + overtime managing a McDonald's. I know it's not much, but he's doing a lot better than some of the prestige-obsessed folks out there. Is that something you guys have considered? Better pay, no college education required, more intellectually stimulating work.
IMHO, the bottom line is that if you find a job that you enjoy, the money tends to follow naturally. If you can't find a job in finance that you enjoy, McDonald's pays pretty darned well if you can run a kitchen and do not care about prestige.
hey lifesgreatmystery aka tool kid from stern who got BlackRock PAG. sorry u got dinged junior.
u jelly i'm at megafund next year? yeah u jelly... all good bro enjoy ur 35k airline pilot job lol.
You know, managers at McD's make $50/hour. If you maybe get over your elitist attitude, you can get promoted to a management job there.
he'd get dinged for being too ugly
omg same joke i used on u, mad creative. can see why ur in back office at BlackRock.
I think a lot depends on what kind of bank you work for. For a regional bank, corporate banking (not to mention, commercial) can be pretty "retail-ish"; meaning you don't have covenants, youre selling deposits, CDs and investments to the principles and the more complex products that your clients may need, are white labeled off to a bigger bank or are just sold to them by a bigger bank.
If you do corporate banking at a much larger institution (top 5 or 10 bank), you're overhauling your client's capital structures, creating debt facilities that behave very much like bonds (despite the fact that in the most basic pretenses, they still are 'loans'), syndicating transactions among national and international players, and providing some surprisingly complex treasury management products.
Maybe some people did corporate banking because they couldn't get into/make it into IBanking, sure. But i also think that another large majority of corporate bankers chose it over Ibanking because they'd rather not waste some of the best years of their life stuck in a cubicle for 14 hours a day.
At some point people ought to learn to stop shitting on others to boost their own self-esteem. Sadly, that will never happen, especially with parenting (or what passes for it) today.
I work for a larger corporate bank and I agree on what you are saying about the different sizes of banks and how they operate.
IB isn't big where I am currently located and graduated from. I mainly applied for corporate banking analyst programs and got my #1 pick. I figured an analyst is an analyst no matter what sector of finance I go into. Man was I wrong. That being said, I get paid far less than IBankers but also work about 20 hours less a week. I would much rather more than double my pay and work longer these first years and have more opportunities down the road. Thats why I am looking at either going back and getting my MBA, or network my @ off and try to get an analyst position in IB.
I work in “corporate banking” and the major difference between what I do and what some of my friends in investment banking do is that they (admittedly) do more useless work. I don’t build bank books and I don’t pitch. We mostly offer senior secured debt for m&a/LBO transactions, dividend recaps, and refinancings. It is not uncommon for us to work with the investment banking groups (as well as corporate banking) of BBs.
My hours average 50-60 a week, and at its worst it has been around 80. In college I originally wanted to do IB but had a difficult time breaking in. Now I’m not sure if I would switch over, but if I did, it would be to learn more products & services (more debt products, equity, m&a) and to get better exit opps. I’m not trying to knock IB – I think it can be better off for you depending what your goals are – just wanted to share a different perspective.
Choosing X over Y implies you had the option of either... i.e. each were yours for the taking... thats like me saying I chose my girlfriend over Gisele Bundchen because I didn't want to deal with all the paparazzi associated with dating a supermodel and breaking her and Brady up.
Similar argument applies to those on this forum talking about how they chose MM banking over BB, or MM PE over a megafund. Unless you had offers in hand from both, you didn't choose shit so stop trying to make yourself feel better.
Be that as it might, it sounds like you're pretty pissed that your girlfriend is not Gisele Bundchen and that she is, in fact, getting railed on the side by the Corporate Banker who has an extra 30 hours of time off per week.
Get your solace where you can... even if its telling yourself yourself you WANT to be in corporate banking. My problem isn't with corporate bankers, its with born losers like you that refuse to be honest with yourself and keep championing your failures as your success.
Any corporate banker that is on Wall Street Oasis, a forum that is 80% IBD-focuses and 20%-S&T focused, is only here to learn how they can break into banking from their current lot. Which is perfectly fine, just don't come on here chanting about how great it is to be where you are considering your vying for the opportunity to one day "work an extra 30 hours a week so your gf can get railed by a corporate banker." And for the record, the gf I don't have would probably rather be railed by a toll bridge operator than a corporate banker.
wow...you guys worry so much about how others think of you that you lost how to think for yourselves.
breaking down WSO:
~80% high school/college students who have no clue what ibanking is and are considering it since it is one of the highest paying jobs they can get outta school
then there are the ~20% ibankers who hate their jobs, have low self-esteem, and are trying to figure out how to exit to the buyside
Yet you waste all your time on a forum labeled for IBD. You mad about your rejection bro?
no job is rainbows & lollipops at the entry level but i'm sure glad i worked 1 year and learned a lot, cruised for 8 months and going to a megafund while your pathetic self remains here on an internet forum dedicated to ibd with your back office PAG BlackRock offer trying to make yourself feel better.
peace out holmes.
Again Marcus, I never said I was or wasn't. I was providing an unbiased view of corporate banking, which seems logical since I am positioned between Corporate Bankers and my Capital Markets oriented peers (securitizations, debt capital markets, FX desks) that I interlace with on a daily basis. Seeing that I also have close friend who pursued Ibanking, I think I can speak to the merits of both.
So now that I know you comprehend how to search a user's posts, is there anything you'd like to say or are you just going to google me until you can find something that I misrepresented about myself??
.
Two 100/100 posts by Marcus.
Pwnage on Floyd who is too embarassed to even admit he is a commercial lender LOL. Trying to hide it proves how inferior they are and totally contradicts any posts they make trying to defend their embarassment of a job.
Any lurker can see these corp bankers and PAG back office kids are stinging over their rejections.
Maybe lifesgreatmystery can process my multimillion personal investment in a few years, but then again I'd rather blow a million on a diamond plated KKR/Warburg/Carlyle/Onex/TPG license plate than invest w/ a crap shop like BlackRock.
Megafund4life.
You are definitely one of the better trolls on WSO. You never fail to make me laugh.
can you guys make sure to return my ruler once you finish measuring your dicks with it?
It probably smells like balls... especially the beginning end of it.
boutiquebank4life has no friends
lifesgreatmystery:
O MAN WUT A COMEBACK, IT STINGS OHHHHHHHH
such a sick insult wow, i always knew BlackRock back office was filled with geniuses but not like this!!! what a genius of our time!
please have mercy on me before I drive my 300k lambo w/ megafund diamond-laced license plate off a cliff from your damaging and creative online insults.
Please cum on my face. I like cum.
ps: YOU 'MIRING MY MEAGFUND OFFER? dont be jelly
boutiquebank4life, did you just claim that you want to drive yourself off a cliff? sounds like you got some self-esteem problems
Wow this thread has completely deviated away from my original question. I will attempt to summarize/draw a conclusion.
First, my wording was really confusing in my OP. When I said "I've always understood these two types to work the same job but for different-sized companies," I was referring to both commercial and corporate bankers. Obviously we all now that iBankers are raising capital, doing IPO's issuing debt, cap restructuring, etc.
I was merely confused why among commercial and corporate bankers, of whom both analyze credit for the purpose of loans, only commercial bankers are looked down on.
Now I realize of course I was probably wrong and from the looks of this thread, depending on the iBanker, both are deemed unsuitable and vastly inferior to investment banking.
Having settled this (and add input if I have any gaping holes in my conclusion), I would hold that investment banking is traditionally more prestigious, in the same way medicine or law is, yet that fact should not encourage individuals to become investment bankers. Rather, it should be a love for the job and what he does, along with a willingness to work.
No commercial bankers need to be offended by the pride iBankers hold in their jobs as iBankers should not enforce their pride/superiority on others - it's just common decency.
This thread makes S&T seem like the red headed middle step child of finance - largely ignored haha.
Whatever you do just do it well and to the best of your abilities...then you will do alright.
I love how all these butthurt insecure d-bags who feel like shit because they got a shitty job (ie: not real banking) go around tossin' monkey shit to those who are realistic about commercial banking and SB-ing those who bullshit about the importance of these losers.
MS ME BITCHES
A investment banker can leave and start their own shop.
A corporate banker could never start their own shop and needs a big bank's balance sheets to do anything.
You're right. Investment bankers never use their bank's balance sheet to win m&a deals.
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