Why do people disrespect MBA associates???
Only an intern at a MM and they do not have any MBA associates. I constantly see disrespect towards MBA associates. Why is that?
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Its because most MBA Associates come in and think that just because they are an "Associate" they think they can boss around and act superior to analysts who have been working there for 1-2 years, when they don't even know what they are doing.
Banking is all about relationships. MBAs are valuable because they have a network of Stanford Harvard Wharton alumni who will go on to be CEOs and executives. You aren’t hiring the MBA to be a excel wizard. But they do get shit on often but they should also be humble and not be know it all’s.
You clown. How many stanford/wharton/harvard MBA’s go into IB?
There’s the notion that they don’t know as much about IB given that most did UG and worked in completely unrelated fields. Furthermore MBAs are pretty general and a lot of banks recruit out of MBAs to stay in good relation with the schools. When I interned as a summer analyst, I was correcting the summer associates model. Pair that with many arrogant attitudes over analysts who have grafted for years just because they paid 200k for the worlds most expensive networking event
You were modeling as a summer analyst? Cool story, bro.
Not just modeling a a summer analyst, being assigned to check the work of the MBA associate. That guys a legend
This place is mostly summer analysts and analysts, so that will color the responses you see. Notice how few posts there are ragging on other analysts or summer analysts in spite of many being putrid. Be assured that even at top groups there are trash analysts and the frequency goes from low to high as you go down the level quality spectrum in terms of group/firm.
The problems a lot of people here experience IMO are typical of work environments. A lot of people aren’t good at their jobs and it takes a period of time for firms to push those people out or those people to gain experience. A2As have more experience at the job and the worst of the worst should be filtered out after a few years, so it is probably less likely you encounter one that is terrible.
Second that. To be fair, there are as many shit MBA associates as there are analysts. Most people on this forum are analysts who work darn hard everyday so to see an MBA Asso coming in to manage them is never an easy thing to stomach. I mean if you have ever managed a stub analyst from UG, you will know some of them are totally clueless: some don’t even know how to setup zoom/webex calls properly, don’t know how to manage multiple stakeholders, bad at formatting slides (mba tends to be better trained with ppt), no context on what they are doing at times (eg, simply plugging numbers and spreading comps without context), lack of resourcefulness, so on and so forth. As you can imagine, MBA generally have 4-5 years of work experience so they are generally better organized, independent, and know how to manage projects/deals. The best MBA associates generally have good finance background + industry knowledge.
I wouldn’t say that MBA associates necessarily know better how to manage projects/deals. One thing I see is that MBA Asso tend to want to prove they add value / “think 2 steps ahead” when this is not actually needed, while A2A have sometimes more of a “get shit done” mentality, which is obviously more appreciated by analysts.
The issue when you have MBA associates that want to overdo is that most often they’re not actually creating anything themselves so when you’re already working 800-100h a week as an analyst, creating superficial pages that seniors don’t even look at us extremely annoying.
But yeah most people commenting here are summer interns anyway which don’t even have an undergrad let alone any exp working with MBA alumni so I wouldn’t take it as face value necessarily
There are a ton of new shitty analysts as well as interns, but they 1) generally recognize that yes, they are at the bottom of the totem pole, and 2) are treated and paid as such at basically every single bank in the world.
I am yet to meet or hear credibly of an associate doing the following:
1. Calling a client “dude” and “man” several times
2a. Not knowing how to send out a Zoom invite
2b. Sending the WRONG zoom link for a call because they somehow decided to copy a link from a different meeting and paste it into an email
3. Not having basic email etiquette
4a. Chewing with their mouth open and literally spitting food while eating
4b. Getting hammered off 1.5 beers and making fools out of themselves at the first company HH during BTO
5. Tell a VP he has a brunch and is too busy to discuss a model on a Sunday while on a live deal they begged to be staffed on
I could go on, but these are things I’ve seen in the last six months with A1s while in a “top” IB group. Never even heard of this shit happening with associates. I can’t imagine what some of these bucket shop analysts are like.
You gonna keep blowing up my phone rocket man????
After being an analyst for a year+, it sucks to have someone with 0 finance experience come in and boss you around just because they have a degree (that isn’t even that relevant to the job). Why should an MBA associate be bossing around a 3rd year analyst when the analyst has 6 closed deals and the associate doesn’t know what a data room is?
Also, MBA associates are generally insecure/trying to prove themselves, and so there’s tons of “MD is going to want this, why don’t you make a few slides on ___”. Leads to tons of busy work that never gets used
An analyst 1 with 6 closed deals that they actually meaningfully contributed to? Hmm somehow, I don’t believe it.
How many MBA associates are you working with have zero finance experience? It definitely happens, but it certainly isn’t the norm. Most did transaction advisory, commercial banking, lower tier IB and traded up for a better group,
Most of the MBA associates i've seen are big4 non-transaction advisory, insurance, commercial banking, etc. During their first 6 months, these guys are as useful as an analyst within months their 6-12 month period. I can't and don't trust these guys for their first year because they tend to be a little too overconfident.
Agreed. Most of the MBA associates at my MM were non-finance individuals, including from places such as Teach For America. Can they develop into really good associates and bankers in general? 100% yes, absolutely. My favorite associate when I was an analyst was the aforementioned person who was at Teach for America prior to their MBA, but even they are first to admit that they were absolutely useless when the first joined. Key thing is that individual did not have a super arrogant, holier than thou personality and did not come in and try to immediately give orders to analysts when they didn't know how to do anything themselves.
People hate MBA associates who know nothing but somehow still act like huge dbags or think they are superior to the analysts. As long as they don't do that, they'll be fine. To be fair the pay discrepancy will always be a bit hard to stomach - that was the hardest part for me as a 3rd year knowing that I could do literally everything the new MBA associates were doing just as well if not better (and I was staffed as a full associate anyways), yet being paid way less.
Sure, but the context here is literal incoming summer analysts and 0-6mo analysts talking about the uselessness of post-MBA associates, not too bucket A2s talking about stub associates. Apples and oranges.
Why do you have a massive chip on your shoulder about this topic? I'm guessing you're a first year MBA associate or something?
Lol @ Rocket Man, way to selectively call out only incoming SAs and 0-6 mo analysts when you have literal top bucket A2s and A3s chiming in too.
Delete
I am right. This is down to an ego thing in which you are frustrated that new MBA Assos with no experience are coming in to manage you. you have to give them time to develop. Just think back to when u first started: you literally generated 0 value and yet u were given opportunity to prove ur worth. There is a reason why banks like to hire MBA asso. This is very similar to what I see in the military when ppl get frustrated when a newly minted officers join their team to command them without much experience. You have to see them as your colleagues not enemy.
also, while dependent on group culture, most MBA associates I know just wanna get the job done and go home. Most of us have families and are doing this for the money so there is very little incentives for us to work harder. I don’t know what kind of hardo group you work in though.
Totally agreed w/ you that everyone should have a chance to develop and prove their worth (see my comment above on my favorite associate), but issue is when MBA associates do not think they need to prove their worth (whether due to age, degree, title, or a combination of the prior). You said it yourself, there's very little incentive to work harder, so those that push shit down the pipe when they have yet to demonstrate their ability to generate any value give all other MBA associates a bad rap.
The issue is that my MBA associates will do anything in their power to minimize their own work without that same regard for me.
If my MD wants a page or an analysis or a client asks for it, I have no problem doing that, or having my associate ask me to do it.
If my MBA associate who has never closed a deal asks for something because “the md/client will want it”, and they’ve done this multiple times a week and 90%+ of my time those materials go to waste, I will judge the associate.
I’m all for them taking time to learn, but they shouldn’t use me as a pawn and make me spin my wheels on work that no one asked for and no one wants
I respect post mba associates, i just want to shove my dick down their throats when theyre a diversity hire or had no finance/mbb background (like coming from entertainment, media, nonprofits, useless shitty work experience but got in a good bschool because theyre a minority or gay
We all know it's you.
yeah never mind that white women are the biggest beneficiaries of diversity in corp.
keep hating that one black guy in your group because he took all the spots for your white or fav. latest other friends.
Speaking of hating on black diversity hires, I really hated Greg in Industry because he went to Eton, then Oxford, but still recieved all the advantages of being black despite going to the same schools as England's absolute elites.
high school kid here- so do associates manage analysts? How many analysts does an associate have to manage?
Basically piled a bunch of work on the analyst. (speaking as an analyst tho so ymmv)
“Hey, I’ve left some comments in the client deck. Lmk if you have any questions.”
A senior asks a question -> if I’m on the chain I get a ping on the side saying to respond. If I’m not on the chain the associate forwards it to me.
3x a day my associate pings me and asks me what I’m doing and how my work is coming along. Answer is always some variation of “slowly” or “making progress, still a long way to go” even though I finished it an hour ago.
Any boring and uninteresting tasks are given to the analyst. They aren’t hard, you just need to be on top of your email. Taking notes (usually get pinged “pls take notes” at the start of a call), sending dial-ins/cal invites, pulling research or other data, etc.
I don't know if the above guy answered your posts, but there's no set number of how many analysts an associate is "managing". It depends on the deals you are staffed on and what analysts you are working with. If you have a small group, you are going to likely be working with a smaller number of analysts as the deals will get spread around a smaller group of people. If you are in a larger group, you probably will be working with more analysts. Basically, the associate will instruct the analysts on what slides to do, what calls to take notes on, who to send calendar invites to, etc. If you are working on a big project with a quick turnaround (bake-off, live deal, etc.), more analysts may be on the deal team than usual. Usually, the analysts complete most of the slides in the deck, with the associates handling potentially more complex analysis. Generally speaking, yes, associates do "manage" analysts. However, the dynamic of the deal team varies, sometimes there may be a senior analyst on the team as opposed to an associate. But, you may also be working with a VP who likes to manage both the associate and the analyst as opposed to passing instructions through the associate. A lot of it depends, but at the end of the day, analysts are doing similar tasks for the vast majority of the projects. Analysts work inherently will be stuff that nobody above you wanted to do, aka not always the most interesting or quick.
Whoever threw monkey shit doesn't work in banking
It boils down to the fact that an MBA does a horrible job setting you up to be an associate in an investment bank.
You know what makes the best associates? Analysts that have grinded for multiple years, learned the ins and the outs of the bank, know their way around a model intimately, mastered communicating with and "managing up" the leadership team they report into, check their own work well and can tell quickly where others may have fucked up, delegate effectively, etc. An MBA doesn't teach you a single thing about how to be a good associate.
I firmly believe this is flipped at the more senior levels (late stage VPs / Directors if IBD and managers / senior managers for corp fin / corp dev / strategy in general). Once you get to the aforementioned levels then things like soft skills, breadth and depth of your personal and professional networks, ability to win business, ability to effectively cultivate, manage, and retain talent, etc. become so much more important. On average someone with a top tier MBA (after years of experience playing catch-up) will be better at those things than analysts that have grinded their way up.
Unfortunately being an IB associate is just so similar to being an analyst (you're a do-er, albeit a better, more effective one) that an MBA, especially without prior finance background, is so poorly suited to be "the reason" why you got an associate role at an IB that you presumably weren't cut out for pre-MBA (or else why did you get the MBA...). Add on the fact that a ton of MBA Associates think they're entitled to respect and obedience from their analysts... I mean can you blame analysts and A2A's for dumping on them?
I don’t personally see many A2As doing the dumping or even analysts off this website. Most realize that analysts and associates are partners in the deal process and it is them vs the seniors. If you are an analyst or an associate and think being antagonistic is an intelligent approach or think either are above the work, you’re in for a bad time. Look at this thread where first year analysts—guys who likely have been on the desk less than 6 months and never even did a real internship—are complaining that their associate asked them to do profile pages.
Speaking as an A2A, analysts and associates are hired to do different things so this 1:1 comparison doesn’t make much sense. Analysts trade 2-3 years of grinding for the optionality to go do anything else. A small minority go A2A and are obviously better at the job in their A1 year. MBA Associates are being recruited to become senior bankers. Yes, there absolutely is a weird start where the associate needs to pick up how to do the analyses but pretty quickly after that the technical skills matter less and it is about managing processes and thinking like a senior banker instead of a junior do-er.
Spot on. Banana for you
I don't disagree with you and the intent of my original comment wasn't to suggest anything as such.
We may just be in disagreement on when you stop being a do-er and start being a senior banker. The "weird start" period, IMO is much longer for post MBA associates than A2As or lateral hires. I'm not suggesting all associates are useless do-ers (and recognize you have an inherent bias here, everyone likes to think of themselves in a positive light) but lets be honest you're closer to analyst than you are VP or director.
As that gap inverses you're 100% right that post MBA associates are hired into IBD in the hopes that they'll stick around to make good senior bankers, but candidly the data will suggest a significant chunk of post MBA associates are those breaking into the industry for the first time. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it unfortunately just results in a portion of those hires being entitled jerks when they're still in the "ramp up" phase and casting a bad light on the rest of the cohort.
But if someone goes A2A isn't there a good chance they want to stay in banking longer too? Do MBA associates have a higher chance to be promoted and climb the ladder than a first year A2A?
This Kinda makes me regret not paying too much attention in my undergrad business courses. I know it’s not the same as MBA, but at least at my school many of them are the same exact courses.
This isn't unique to MBAs.....same thing happens in the army for officers who got their rank from going to college versus working up from private.
What the haters on here don't note...or perhaps even understand....is that this is a temporary condition. Sure, a MBA might have more school knowledge than practical knowledge compared to an analyst who has been there for 2 years.....at first.
However, in 2 years time, that associate will also have practical knowledge and book knowledge while you'll still be stuck with just practical knowledge. That combination has value. It's the very reason that banks hire MBAs in the first place. They fully understand that in the first 6 months they'll be inferior to a seasoned analyst, but they also realized that they will be far advanced than an analyst in no time as well.
You’re saying that you’re interning at a bank with no mba associates but you’re seeing consistent disrespect. Are you just referring to this forum?
In the real world, Im just not sure I agree with the premise that mba associates aren’t respected. I can really only speak to my group, but respect tends to follow people who are competent, care about the people they work with, and don’t try to just push down every single request.
I’m not really interested in trying to quantify what percentage of MBAs fall into one bucket versus the other, but I will say that there are A2As who have the mindset that they’ve paid their dues, so they don’t have to do “analyst work.” Alternatively, some A2As (because they’ve only ever done banking) don’t really know when to take their foot off the gas and end up working the analysts to death on some non sense request that could’ve waited. Again, none of this is to say that MBAs are better, and it is definitely the case that MBA associates can’t contribute a whole lot during their ramp up. However, I’m sure if our analyst class had to rank associates from best to worst, it wouldn’t just be A2As at the top followed by the MBAs with finance backgrounds.
Maybe my experience is different from others.
NuclearPenguins has surely paid his due. Ain’t gonna do more grind work but still get top bucket. Hope none of the incoming analysts are taking him seriously.
Hey you're talking about future me hopefully!
Joking aside, I have an MBA with no financial experience and want to break into the industry. I have 18 months left on my current contract (military) so I want to ensure I have the best possible chance. Any advice (besides not being a A-hole) that could help me not only get a job but also be good at it? Like any certs, books, etc? Thanks!
I actually feel bad that so many of you have had such shitty experiences with your associates, definitely not supposed to be any power dynamic between associates and analysts. It’s the junior team.
MBA Associates = 2nd lt coming out of OCS without prior experience. Just listen to your MSG (E-8) and learn how to read a map.
You can boil it down to this.
Analysts who have been working for 1 or 2 years and still suck at their jobs see MBA associates who suck even more at their jobs getting paid more, have more "authority", and have a sense of entitlement due to their age and MBA. Well they don't like it. Where in reality the MD looks at both of them as a waste of time and money.
1. Maybe of the jealousy that these people can afford to do an MBA
2. Maybe the MBA IIRC wasn't as prestigious as before. I had a professor who is ex-exec at a very large prestigious bank and he advised me to do something else other than an MBA. As quoted: "If you want to take an MBA. Might as well just give the money to me and I'll teach you the same shit as they teach at XXX school right now for half of that using my past lecture resource."
3. The MBA you guys are talking about 30 years ago are now moved up a notch to PhD
4. Not my opinion but a lot of people say that MBA is just common sense stuff with some in-depth business courses that can be learnt from WSO or MITOpenCourseWare
And who was that guy on the interview he said that a first year analyst would destroy the MBA grad in terms of knowledge.
A MBA isn't about learning. You can easily pick up everything taught in one on your own. It's about expanding your network and getting opportunities for better jobs or switching careers.
does an associate ever give a shit what an analyst thinks?
@Rocket Man and @Anotherm7 are exhibits A and B of "Why Do People Disrespect MBA Associates???"
When you have an industry that has a near 0% retention rate for their entry-level analyst program, and the 2% remaining analysts hate their new coworkers, someone has to write a play about it. what a bunch of haters in this industry - toxic shit.
I think people don't understand the difference in role between analyst and associate. The analyst is there to spread comps and model. They get paid very well for that and senior bankers understand analysts are practically one foot out the door from the day they hit the desk. Analysts spend a lot of time thinking about buy side recruiting. Of course some analysts accept a promotion to associate and continue their time with the firm.
The associate role is different mainly because at that point they are seen as baby MDs. This is why a brand spanking new MBA associate is getting paid way more than an analyst, they are getting paid for leadership potential. An associate with 4-7 years work experience (even unrelated) will provide a different perspective. Senior leadership at banks are trying to develop the next generation of directors / MDs / rainmakers from associate classes. So do the expected value on an associate in terms of eventual fees generated. Of course many don't pan out but every once in a while they get a rock star.
You guys know that down the road MoDeLliNg doesn't matter, right? Associates are brought in to become revenue generating units. So, they are actually much more important than any top bucket analyst.
I know you guys work hard and all that, but truth to be told - no one gives a fuck about your 100MB operating model, how well you take notes or move shapes in a PowerPoint. Client relationships, putting out fires and being well-rounded sales person matters. The sooner you get it, the less frustration is going to be out there for you.
Thanks for this answer bc I was going to ask why do they even hire them in the first place? Not bc they aren’t qualified but it would seem like it makes more sense to promote internally; but the sales aspect does make it make sense.
Nobody gives a shit if you don’t know how to do stuff, because at a basic level you can teach people (whether it’s an Analyst or Associate).
The problem is the attitude, and when you’ve just spent $200k for two years of feeling prestigious and justify in your head that you are somehow mature, the arrogance can lead to a poor management style.
My favorite MBA Associates are based on character and a sense of human decency - not their technical skills. The ones I loathe are just pricks who have a massive chip on their shoulder that was made bigger by getting a MBA.
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