This is another in a long line of articles I have come across, endlessly comparing the US to European nations, as if we could simply adopt what works there and it would be all ok. If we could only be more "European" our quality of life would be so much better.
Why is it that none of these articles illustrate differences between the US and European nation? This article compares the US educational system with Finland, yet fails to mention how silly this comparison is.
Finland is a country of 5.3MM people, 93.4% ethnically Finnish and mainly Finnish speaking. This compared to a nation of 313MM, racially and ethnically diverse as well as a large and growing population that does not speak the predominant language in the USA.
Put simply, foreign methods of teaching are best suited and developed to those countries. We are all different and you cannot simply plug and play your way to success. This putting of Europe onto a pedestal, while ignoring the bad and damaging things that were going on in those countries, is both bad for the US and the Europeans as a whole.
Thoughts on Richard Branson's blog post on Portugal's approach to the war on drugs?
http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/blog/time-to-end-the-war-on-drugs
Personally, I think the war on drugs has nothing to do with drugs. It is about increased police presence and maintaining segregation/racism. Young, white kids are not selling drugs or going to jail for possession. Black kids are going to jail, getting a felony and never being able to succeed in life.
Imagine if drugs were legalized. You wouldn't be able to make a ton selling it. Companies would come in, reduce costs and clean it up. Crime would diminish because legal contracts could be enforced. You wouldn't need massive police departments or budgets, hence reducing the police state that we live in.
See, drugs aren't the issue. Black kids in jail isn't the point. This is about government expansion, money and police power. The sellers and users are just cannon fodder.
I love how you moved 180 degrees. Only idiots support the drug war.
It doesn't matter if Finland is a 5m person country and the US is a 300m. The USA should be able to break things down and organize them on a state by state or county by county basis, effectively creating small
Comparing Finland to an individual state is more appropriate. Comparing the US to all of Europe, west and east, would be a more fair comparison. With that said, we have a different economy and social system, one that values different things than in Europe.
I also reject this under achievement statement. I think there is a baseline when it comes to education and anything past that is nice, but not necessary.
Fair enough, though the consequences of that have to be accepted. If a shit education system is the price to pay for America's social system, then so be it.
finland vs. new hampshire or vermont is the perfect comparison. actually, those states kick ass all across the board.
Please clarify what you mean by achieve much more.
Score higher in international tests on average, greater rates of adequate literacy and numeracy. etc.
Additionally, this is not to say that the US system is perfect or does not need change, but it needs USA change, not simply adopting another countries methods.
The US is on par with the majority of western Europe when it comes to literacy rates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate
As for everything else, I agree, but my assertion is that you must take a blended ranking, encompassing western and eastern Europe. The US has relatively poor states and rich states, ones that have really good public schools and ones with shitty public schools. The educational system in the US is state determined, not national.
For some reason that "shit" system has produced the worlds best university system. Foreign countries destroy the US in production of engineers, yet we destroy them in production of other majors. When you have a developing nation you do not have the luxury of having citizens study philosophy or whatnot.
Besides, let China and India produce engineers, the US will provide the market place, the capital and the laws that will encourage creation and invention.
Also, this post was never meant to become a pissing match. It was simply to state that we compare ourselves to other nations and think that if only the USA would adopt XYZ's way of doing things, it would be all better. When in fact we need to fix our schools in a different way instead of adopting other nations practices.
Well, I think the first comment is only partially correct. Sure, the USA has almost all of the very best universities in the world, but that's because like everything else in the country, the university system is polarized.
Other countries are different. There is no such thing as a "target" university in my country. Students don't have to write essays and resumes to be accepted - provided your high school results meet a certain standard, your in to any one you please. Firms don't recruit at only a select few universities, but at every university (or just the local one if its a small firm) instead. In fact, that's if you could say they even "recruit" at all - the whole college recruiting scene is so much more laid back.
So over here, we have a bunch of good universities with the best students spread out amongst them. In America, you have a bunch of exceptional universities with the best students, and a whole lot of other average-poor universities. This is simply a different way of doing things, probably as a result of America being more competitive and polarized than almost every other country.
The best universities? Yes. The best university system? Not necessarily.
And no problem, this is not a pissing match! I agree, some aspects of European society just won't be accepted in America....
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_edu_att_ter-education-educational…
Results look better when we do not focus on simply college majors. I would dare to say that when you take the blended rate of western and eastern Europe the difference between the US and Europe would be much more stark.
Average years of schooling:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_ave_yea_of_sch_of_adu-education-a…
Mathematical Ability:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_mat_lit-education-mathematical-li…
US looks like shit, until you take the average of all European nations. When you do this the USA is on par with them.
Yeah, but what you just posted is a fucking stupid list; the difference between #1 and #63 is 3.0. The majority of all developed countries are on 99. To be quite honest, every country in the world, except those in Africa and a few in South or Latin America, has high literacy rates according to this metric.
There is also a difference between being "literate", and "adequately literate". I'd imagine "adequately literate" doesn't describe even 2/3 of the people in some of these countries.
I also find it interesting how most of these people fail to mention that in Europe, at a much younger age, children make the decision of going to trade school or college, while in America every single child, regardless of how poorly they do in school, feels obligated to go do college, when they are much better suited to be a plumber than a scholar, which I am sure brings down the American average.
This reminds me of the Occupy clowns who compare Switzerland's semi-socialist system to ours, claiming that it could work here.
if we had the maker/taker ratio that the swiss have we could pull that off.
The US has a lot to learn from other nations. It is the general consensus in other English speaking countries that the US is an arrogant nation of very ignorant people. I do not necessarily believe this is the case, but this is the perception (it would ironic indeed if Americans were unaware of this perception).
As for education systems, I am sure there would be a lot to learn from the Scandinavian systems of education, given their quality, irrespective of the obvious cultural differences. I am sure more could be learnt from Australia, though, given they have similarly diverse racial profiles, yet probably more success in public policy than the US (education and health being the main ones).
I think it is unfair to try and highlight that the US is ignorant. We are only ignorant when it comes to global issues and that is directly related to the fact that we are physically isolated from the world. You find plenty of xenophobic and racist Europeans who I would classify as ignorant, even though they might know geography a little better.
In fairness, being American, you are probably not in a position to see how ignorant you are. Ironically, part of your ignorance is your ignorance of your own ignorance. As for being isolated from the rest of the world, I'm not sure that flies given you border Mexico and are near all those Central American countries. Is Britain isolated?
And it is not just about geographical ignorance. There appears to be a general ignorance of world events that don't directly involve America. So I would again suggest that in other English speaking Western countries, the stereotypical American is a very loud, overweight, arrogant and ignorant person. This is of course a harsh generalisation, but I am merely informing you of that stereotype (of which I assume you are ignorant, given your supposed ignorance). My brain hurts now.
It's easy to say that promoting American practices vs. the rest of the world is ignorant, but at the same time, you can say that Europeans immediately dismiss Americans' opinions because they picture them as the loud, overweight, arrogant, and ignorant stereotype. Lets take an average American versus an average Egyptian. The Egyptian probably knows more about America than vice versa, but the reality is that it's because Egypt does not matter in comparison to the U.S. and world news is usually based on what's going on in the U.S.
Also, (outside of the U.S.) the world revolves mainly around Europe, China, and Japan. Yes, the U.S. is isolated in this aspect. It doesn't share a border (OR even a hemisphere) with a global player. The average person on Earth can't really be bothered by Mexico and "all those Central American countries." Britain is isolated in many ways from continental Europe as well, but that's another debate.
In the end my take is that everyone always thinks that their system way works best. As an American I think that there are definitely things to be learned from other countries, but let's not forget that when we put everything together, the United States is the greatest country the world has ever known.
Wow, I am discussing educational scores and how comparing a collective of different states, to singular European nations, is an incorrect comparison and you weight in with every movie stereotype of Americans.
Listen, I frankly could care less what Europeans think just like Europeans could care less what I think. The USA is relatively isolated from the rest of the developed world. Yes, we have land masses near us, but South and Central America really aren't all the important (as compared to the European debt crisis, China's economics, Middle East, etc). That is what I mean when I say we are "isolated".
I also really doubt that the average European can tell me what is going on in Honduras or Malaysia. Once again, you are comparing Apples to Oranges. Americans know what is going on across America, just like Spaniards probably know what is going on in Sweden. When you start going beyond this people lose interest or just can't follow it.
The USA also basically moves the news. I mean by the time something happening in a 3rd world is really important the USA is already there fucking with shit so whatever happens will benefit the Americans. All I care about is Chinese workers pumping out low cost products and people in the desert pumping out low cost crude. If that means we need to bomb some people or crush a civil rights movement, so be it.
You also fail to address my point that when you compare Europe as a whole, their educational standards are pretty much in line with the USA. If you cherry pick certain Northern European countries the USA looks bad, but when you factor in all of Europe, just as Europeans factor in all American states, things look much more even.
Americans really shouldn't even worry about Europe. Asia is the real competition. Europeans have archaic labor laws, high taxes and business costs and luscious entitlement programs. You are a sinking shit. Taxes are high enough that the Laffer Curve might actually be in effect and you have no easy areas to cut. You have almost no defense spending, a negative birth rate and a xenophobic culture. Please tell me how this will end well for you guys.
The USA on the other hand has comparatively low tax rates, flexible labor laws, minimal entitlements (too much IMO) and a large defense budget. We could right the ship very easily because we have so much fat to trim.
So yes, I am loud, happily plump and only focused on me.
U S A U S A U S A
the US in substantive ways is way the fuck less racist than europe. anyone who says otherwise has not traveled.
THIS, so many times over. At least racism in the United States is frowned upon, not to say it doesn't exist, but it is socially discouraged. You go to some parts of the world--not just third-world shitholes but developed EU countries, and you are looked down upon if you do NOT think less of Turks/Israelis/Arabs/Albanians or whatever.
Milton Friedman once went to one of these scandinavian countries (finland/sweden/whatever i forget which one) and when he got off the plane a reporter asked him finland's very low unemployment rate was proof that the socialist system was preferable to free markets. He said, "its interesting, in america we have a very low unemployment rate amongst finnish americans also"....i dont want to be politically incorrect but there is a cultural element to unemployment. It is notable that in almost all cases, America does a better job of educating immigrants then their home countries...ie Mexicans in America are better educated then Mexicans, Africans in America are better educated then Africans, and so on.
Because the US educational system is set up a way that people who have the resources to attend the American universities certainly gain alot from it, that is why some of world's brightest international students go to top American universities.
Comparing to East Asian school system,the prospect of selecting your classes doesn't exist.You have to study what the Education System teaches you.This may cause students who are really good in some areas to forfeit their chances of exploring other areas. In Germany on the other hand from what I see,a lot of responsibility in educating one self depends on the individual.The teachers are there to teach,and then one just educate themselves into achieving the rest.In America from what I realize have some form of different styles.A majority of students I faced depend on the teachers a lot - more like 'hold my hand to the exams type',and questions like 'what is the easiest professor for that subject?' - ratemyprofessor is a very biased website that I think its stupid. I do think American style of teaching is very engaging which is good,but there has to be a boundary where 'one feeds everything' which leaves students to ask for help rudely by mass emailing other students 2-3 days before the final (Help me out : type everything for me in this format so that I could pass).This is probably the people who do networking 2-3 days before recruiting starts?
I don't see a problem with the higher education system as a whole. The cost is certainly an issue, but that, I think is due to increasing manipulation by the government and the notion that vocational schools are crap. More loans = higher price. Why do nurses go to university for 4 years than go to nursing school for 2 more? My mother went to community college for like 2 years to get a nursing degree- now you need a BS and oftentimes more? It's ridiculous. More education is not necessarily better. All the people who are unemployed after college and then get jobs in crappy professions probably didn't need to go to college. If you are getting a General Studies major for any university...you just wasted a ton of money.
Lower and secondary education is messed up. Michelle Rhee tried to fix it...and did in many ways and look what happened to her. Public sector unions are evil IMHO. If you decide to work for the government as of now you get work for life and a median income. Why not make it a little less secure? The fact that in NYC theres a building that where teachers who have been deemed too incompetent to teach go every day to do nothing (because they are still on the payroll and can't be fired due to unions) is a travesty. Unions can be good, but the fact that they can control firings is ridiculous. I don't know how I would fix it, but it is a huge affront IMHO. So rather than firing a bad expensive teacher and hiring 2 good cheaper ones we hold on to the bad guy, and he might not even teach. Unions are necessary for overtime hours, payroll decisions, etc. but he firing thing always gets me.
Well the last two or so decades have seen a general degeneration of how education is perceived in America, in terms of popular culture. Coupled with the fact that the system gravitates to the generally diminishing abilities of students and demands of their idiot parents, the result isn't too surprising. I don't think there were any serious debates about teaching creationism as opposed to science in the 1960's. Now its one big circus. Take a look at what kids are being brainwashed with on a daily basis. Trigonometry and chemistry is the last fucking thing on their minds. Its all bout rims, bitches and dolla bills on one side - and Jesus walking with dinosaurs on the other. And no one with the balls to set things right.
there is no point arguing with ant (or most americans) about changing their country, the belief of america's superiority is just so ingrained in the local belief system that it cannot be reasoned with.
You should probably go back to school yourself since you completely missed the point of this post. The point was not and is not to say the US system is the best or infallible. It is to say that the US needs a US solution to our problems, not simply to adopt another countries educational system.
I also indicated in my other posts how the general opinion that the European educational system blows the US away is false. I also think holding Asian systems up on a pedestal is silly also. We all need improvement and there are pros and cons to each system.
To answer the OP, I agree that comparing the US to a single European country is not appropriate, because of size, diversity, etc... But I think comparing the US to the EU is appropriate, and there are still many things that the US can learn from us and viceversa.
That said, I find it funny when people say "Hey, this is the US, it won't work here, we need to come up with our own solution". I realize you can't just copy the system, but you should take a look at it, see why it works and then try to apply whatever you can. It seems to me that americans find it sort of embarrassing to take anything from anyone, like it's a humiliation because they didn't come up with it, and I think that's very arrogant if I'm honest. The EU copies many things from the US, and we don't have any problem with it.
A few randopm, unsolicited thoughts:
1) I don't think the US as a laggard in int'l test scores is a good thing, obviously, but given our continued success economically, we must be doing something right.
2) Re: Finland, I didn't read what they do differently, but if anyone's going to say we need to spend more money, they should analyze the increased spending in the last 40 years and the marginal improvements.
3) CULTURE. That's the answer to a lot of this. We like our guns, and bork bork bork, the Swedes do not. We could have examples all day and they would be relevant to this discussion. That said Maximus, I agree you should at least look at other countries and that's fair enough.
4) War on Drugs - everyone seems to be against it, and yeah I don't want someone jailed in any manner related to pot, but tread carefully. The talk of all the great things legalization would bring is conjecture, maybe highly educated and informed conjecture based on observing other nations, but speculative nonetheless. The decriminalization of marijuana will probably happen incrementally if at all, and I think that's a good thing. But don't gloss over hard drugs and their effects on the margins of society. Talk all you want about legislating morality, there's some fucked up shit happening out there are legalization won't make it go away.
Time to rush, I bet you read almost three articles on HuffPo about all these creationist people. Yeah, that's totally happening everywhere. The truth is that it's all this happy feely hippie shit, hey bring snacks on Halloween but make sure they're organic and biodegradable packaging, let's move out math and science and teach (insert aggrieved group)-studies instead.
leveredarb - the inferiority complex other countries have isn't ingrained, is it? But spew your vagina on a message board because the PIIGS are proving your entire mindset wrong.
Agree. This anti creationist shit is a red herring. Most places that even bother pushing for creationism simply want it to be brought up when people teach about the formation of the planet, etc. Personally, I think out of respect for other people and because we do not know everything, it would be nice when evolution is talked about that a humble science teacher would at least preface, in a respectful way, that this is the scientific explanation of the history of the planet and other people have religious beliefs that tell a different story. Done.
If US schools simply did away with the summer break and had more of a full year program we could close the gap with Asia very fast. The fact is American students spend less days in the class room than their counterparts in Europe or Asia.
How did I move or even indicate I support the war on drugs? I simply stated that the war on drugs isn't simply about drugs. Jesus, pull the stick out of your ass.
Also, supporting a law or being against a law has jack shit to do with intelligence, just values. Some people believe in maximized liberty and support free people making decisions that effect their own being. Other see drugs and causing an overall negative to society and want to deter drug use. Either opinion has merits, but neither is indicative of someone not being intelligent.
For the record I support legalization of drugs, but that doesn't make me smarter than someone who supports the criminalization of them.
We do that because Europe is (at present) the only true US-comparable, culturally and otherwise. The alternatives would be Russia, Brazil, etc. - much harder cases to make...Just my 2c.
When/if the Scandinavian countries begin to allow more immigration and the demographics change then you will see their education stats change. Likewise for Asian countries. I do not believe the education system has much to do with these outcomes...eliminating summer break would not help improve outcomes in areas of the US where education is really bad, those places have a hard time getting the kids to show up in class eight months out of the year let alone another four.
I agree that for certain bad schools more needs to be done. I think not only extending the school year, but instituting a uniform policy, separation based on sex and large police presence might be the answer. If you can eliminate the trouble makers you wont have much left, but you will have good kids looking to learn. You cannot save everyone, but it is a shame to watch losers destroy the few who have a chance.
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