Why is S&T so unrefined?

shes probably more qualified than you, went to harvard, and in addition has some street smarts and grit. But yeah, you're right man, people with regional accents are total trash.... if you want to be around a preppy boarding school types all day go wait tables at your local new england country club, dick.

S&T is quite uncouth, I would agree. bankers are more pure-bred and refined.

S&T is relatively barbarian... agreed. Those people are certainly smart and may even know how to scrap their way out of bar fights in Queens or suburban San Antonio or wherever it is they hail from, but they're not the mold of banker I like to consider myself (please refer to the character "Prescott Moncrief" from the LSO sketch about boutique bankers). Almost no one I know from prep school is in S&T today... well, one guy is, and I actually like him, but he's a slimy, greasy little bastard who you can't take your eye off for a second and he went to Dartmouth (I know!)... so needless to say he's relatively "backcountry", at least as far as prep kids go.

S&T is like that because it can be. We don't depend on other people to make money. Hence, we can be incredible boors, and the only thing you can do is take your money out of the markets. But don't worry, we'll make money on you doing that, too. :D

As for the elitist commentary about dressed by the salvation army from a newbie banker, I completely disagree. Us traders are a couple steps up from that. We go shopping at the Goodwill store and buy used on Ebay. :D

To the OP, poor form man. Really, that's just poor form.

As to your question, basically, it comes down to the fact that the mentaility is different in S&T versus in IB. IB is white gloved, and its much more of a handholding culture than one might expect. Yes, there's the wining and dining, the models and fee generation, but at the end of the day, Bankers do a good deal of hand holding in order to ensure that the deal goes through and that their clients are happy.

S&T has a culture where hunger and desire do more than being in the old boys club of banking. They almost always have one thing in common, and that's a hunger and desire to do well, as their compensation is tied directly to their performance. When you are judged by your P&L, you need to be barbaric, uncouth and blunt to survive around your fellow traders. This is why you hear stories about some of the biggest names that grew up in lower and middle class homes making their way in Sales and Trading, because it was all about this intense desire and drive. Gordon Gekko said it best:

You're not as smart as I thought you were, Buddy boy, Listen hard -- don't count on Graham and Dodd to make you a fortune, everybody in the market knows the theory, ever wonder why fund managers can't beat the S&P 500? 'Cause they're sheep -- and the sheep get slaughtered. I been in the business since '69. Most of these high paid MBAs from Harvard never make it.You need a system, discipline, good people, no deal junkies, no toreadores, the deal flow burns most people out by 35.

Give me PSHs -- poor, smart and hungry. And no feelings. You don't win 'em all, you don't love 'em all, you keep on fighting, and if you need a friend, get a dog, it's trench warfare out there sport... and in here too. I got twenty other brokers out there, analyzing Charts. I don't need another one. Talk to you sometime...

all the shit about bankers being handholders and s&t money makers is bullshit. last time i checked s&t standed for SALES&trading. yes half of you are bitch salespeople fucking cold calling clients. i would kill myself. thats like selling kitchen knives in high school.

JohnnyCage:

Tonight, I met this horrid woman who will be joining a BB S&T function in June. She is a savage who would not shut up about growing up in Brooklyn or Queens or some place I wouldn't be caught dead visiting.

Are all S&T people animals who speak In slang and with slurred accents? Honestly, she makes the back office sound sexy..

The best part is, after I walked away mid-sentence she eventually hit on a guy who got dressed in the salvation army.

On a side note, have you ever even been to BK, QNS??! There's a lot more to NY than Manhattan, shithead. It's idiots like you that make me dislike tourists/yuppies...they just don't belong in NY.

afalcon,

True. We're talking about why S&T is unrefined, not that its better or worse than IB. I'm not denying that sales sucks, nor am I saying that the guys in S&T are the sole money makers for any firm, unless you used to sit on the Prop desk at Goldman... then yes, they are the sole money makers for their firm, and that all bankers do is hold hands. I said that S&T is based around personal P&L moreso than net fee generation. The firm will always get its fee from the trading desk, that's a given, but traders payouts are based on a quantifiable figure that they achieve by their lonesome. Same goes with Sales. Even though it's cold calling, their sales numbers can be tracked in terms of fee and revenue generation. With banking, fee generation is a given, but it's harder to quantify beyond knowing the total dollar amount that each group brought in. It's a different structure than how Banking is and that allows people to bring out their alpha male tendancies in order to prove dominance. This is also why you don't see League Tables for S&T, but invidiual lists, like the top Traders under 30 for example.

As to the handholding, banking, moreso than sales and trading, is all about relationships. It's about who you know. It's about how long you've known them. It's about what you have done together in the past, if any thing, or how you plan to go forward in the future. That's part of how deals are won and lost. If you have an important client or a major deal, you hold their hand to make sure their happy in order to keep the relationship. This is why I chose the words "Whtie Gloved", as bankers have to be meticulous and pay special care to everything needed by their clients. It's not an insult at all, but an accepted truth about banking as a whole. It's not something you see at the analyst/associate level, you deal with the ramifications of it, but this hand holding happens as you progress further up the ladder.

This is doubly true for Asset and Wealth Management. I know in AM, if a client wants something, we jump to make it happen if we can, and we let them know we can't only after we've exhausted all routes. I've seen clients jump ship to other firms because they weren't happy with the service we gave, and I've seen new assets and referals flow into the firm because we held their hand and they wanted it like that. It's how we keep business because, at the end of the day, this is a service industry. Yes, you do get some hand holding in S&T, but it's not as common as you find it in other parts of Finance.

Second what gekko said. You clearly have no fucking clue what a salesperson does.

When you can point to a pile of money and call it your own, you can do whatever the hell it is you want. Just don't be in the red.

granted they dont cold call but its a sales role, youre on the phone trying to get your client to give you their money all day. sounds awful. like selling knives in HS.

It is sales...and because of that you can tell people to die in a fire even if they are supposedly "senior", as long as you're making money. It's not for everyone (I left it obviously) but there aren't many other industries where you can be 35 years old, wear flip flops to work, make 7 figures, and go home at 4:30. And that person isn't an outlier.

Illinoisprogammer: So having a username like mine means I am not a banker? I can tell your state school degree is deserving of your intellect.

the amount of elitist drivel scribbled across these posts is disgusting, particularly the idiot OP and daddy's rich kid International Pymp, you would be a Bif in real life LOL. Its sad how my dad has plenty money but he fed me something called perspective ever since I was young so I would never let such douche words escape from my mouth, it really goes to show you how important good parenting is, Dartmouth is back country.... really?

I really love the part where you highlighted (I know!) like some douche friend of yours just reacted to your idiotic statement, im sure you were imagining one of your prep boys exclaiming (my word!) with a look on his face like he smelled bad fish. What a joke.

Bankers are judged by their manners and what they wear. Really they have clinets and MDs etc all judging them.

You know who judges traders? A screen. Thats right they look at that screen for 10 hours a day. My boss could show up in his underwear and no shoes, and no one but the screen sees him.

Sometimes you get really angry at your machine, and then you swear. Whos there to judge or ask what happened? The screen?

Now the screen is cool with it.

I think trading is very refined but with a different system... all are comp, driven, focused and hard working but show it differently

I can't even tell when people are joking anymore. Dartmouth!

What the hell is up with the pretentious comments? Typically I reserve this vial comment but OP for someone whose in Operations you really need to calm the fuck down. Both sides have their pro's and cons. I think traders are legit who the fuck cares if their behavior is boorish, they aren't meeting clients let them be.

Next time practice your game this way you can get the girl instead of coming online and ranting about the next guy who got her.

cheers.