Why the FUCK Can't I get into Finance at a salient level? I HAVE LITERALLY DONE THE EXACT SAME WORK IBANKERS DO!
Hello. If you aren't already shitting on me for a hyperbolic post, do read on.
I graduated with a Business Admin BA from a good, medium sized college. I didn't get an IB internship but I did work for similar groups--valuation internship, hedge fund, FPA, accounting gigs. I knew those jobs wouldn't lead to McKinsey or Bain, but I was positive that any sort-of-IB work would at least get me an interview at small or even middle-market banks in my town.
Let this be a warning to you monkeys trying to "break in" by studying how models work [and by applying chapstick as well]: IT WON"T HAPPEN THAT WAY.
Zada, NOPE ZILCH. It doesn't matter that I have literally done the same DCFs LBO's and Comps that everyone in IB have; It doesnt matter that the hedge fund I worked for was top-rated in the region (at least that's what our guy says, who keeps tabs on that?)
I'm starting to think that it doesn't matter how many dicks you suck! If you're not "the banker" when the striking is right, you'll never be a banker(?)
I sound angry, more frustrated and scared because I'm 3 years out of college (yeah, done, I know no chance) but DK WHY i'm out of luck...I have the knowledge to put together models, pitch decks and evaluate potential investments. Im 3 years out of college and I've worked the middle office, Traded on my own, and basically cucked my prestige for a false dogma that is Inv Banking.
What do? Feeling seriously depressed because, honestly fuck all this bullshit. I don't even want to be a banker at this point; Its just that I've spent the lat 7 years (4 in college, 3 on my own) studying finance/economics and I get pigeonholed in shitty back office jobs at best. I'll join the marines when my chronic inflamation is under control.
Do I go get a Cert in SWE or IT? What are those even worth? You still have to slave for 80 hours and get paid PE guy; you suck all that cock but you still don't get "moneY". At 25/26 I'm way too old to study for MCAT or DAT. I'd be 39-40 when I got out of residency.
Advice is welcome.
I'm going to guess you're living within the western hemisphere (e.g you didn't post this in the morning). It's best to think this through after taking a chance to just breathe and/or sleep it off.
I'm not in IB or S&T or PE, what have you, but I'll still offer some general life advice on top of whatever else the professionals here might have to offer.
There's a lot more to life than just finance and this is just as true when it comes to making money. If you want to hit the glorious six-figure number, then that is a very realistic goal for anyone within any professional field even related to finance, so long as you work to perfect your craft (which is, in general, a principle everyone should uphold anyways).
In fact, there are a LOT of people out there who are making IB numbers doing completely unrelated things too. And this holds true in comparison to law and medicine too. Finance isn't the end-all be-all of living, I wouldn't even say it's really the beginning.
Really, no matter how your career plays out, I'd like for you and the all the people who encounter this forum trying to break in to at least make moves in a way that they can have a history that they can feel proud of. Anything that they can feel confident made them feel good with what they were able to contribute to, on their own terms.
Prestige whores and clout chasing in both finance and tech is so very incredibly corny. No one really wants to work with people like that (let alone want to associate with them). So if it's the case that you felt pressured to study finance and economics to break into banking because of some make believe classist narrative about what it means to "make it" in life, I hope you'll be free of that illusion. There's a lot more to having a career with finance/economics than banking or trading.
And I hope you won't compare yourself to the people who have "made it" because trust me the people who are important in your life could really care less about banking. It's literally just a cool trivia fact they might be able to bring up when talking about you, but that's it. But I'm sure there's a lot more to you that the important people in your life would rather talk about than that anyways. So if there's anyone out there making you feel insecure about your career, then I'd like you to know their opinion doesn't really matter. Which brings me back to my point that you should focus on doing things in your career that makes YOU feel proud and that YOU would think is cool, prestige be damned.
(That's really the secret to having a strong story and narrative about you as a person and your career aspirations)
It just makes me so very sad to see how downtrodden people feel on this forum because they're not "keeping up" with literally whoever and whatever to do with banking. I won't lie this forum made me feel that way too and I realized that it's a bunch of nonsense anyways and life is wildly more enjoyable, insightful, intellectually, and socially stimulating if you're going through it on your own terms.
I'm sure there will be some bankers here who will give you the appropriate advice. This post is meant to be some broader advice for you to bear in mind no matter the outcome of your pursuits.
Very true all the way around.
FWIW, the only billionaire I’ve personally met invented a snack. Of all the multimillionaires I know, many of them do weird stuff. One was a home builder in a not so sexy city who now owns a vast CRE portfolio. One manufactured vending machines in the desert of CA, makes a killing. One owns like 15 sandwich shops. They put IB numbers to shame.
Also, they have freedom. MDs in IB make a ton but work a ton from what I have heard. Tech may offer great pay (better than most people on this site admit), but it’s still a paycheck and you need approval to take a day off. Also you need to be somewhat interested in it.
Thanks bro
You’re not too late for the MCAT. But, B school might be your best option now. Just slaughter the GMAT and then you’ll be in their recruiting pipeline from B school.
I’ve studied for the MCAT and have all the Berkeley Review guides and the Kaplan guides. I hate that exam. I think it is very challenging and if these subjects are not fresh in your mind, you’re going to have to re learn large parts of science content. Acing the GMAT would be significantly easier.
OP HERE What's superior: Banking at 30 (26 +4 years' MBA) or medicine at 35+years old? Serious question, please be gentle but candid.
I agree with that; acing GMAT easier than applying to Md
There is no superior career path in life. Banking and medicine are quite different. The banker could be helping people and companies at a greater scale economically, while MD professions are very individual (1:1 with patient) and hands on.
Focus on what you’re passionate about and follow it with all your heart. Worry less about what others think or prestige.
I have an interest in psychiatry and could envision myself helping in private practice (I think that would be nice). Somehow in this life, I want to cover sports psychology and psychiatry in some form (research, writing, or credential). Can you envision yourself in an MD role? I think that’s important.
I generally think the med school path is a large and expensive pain in the ass. The MD/PhD program in the US is somewhat attractive as it’s paid for by the NIH, but is 8 years. Residency pay is likely lower than post-MBA pay, plus you’re more in the hole paying for 4 years of med school versus a 2 year FT MBA. Many MD paths require specialist training after residency.
So if medicine is your passion, go for it. But decide on your interest first and then see how you can accomplish your goal.
It's probably your attitude bruh.
Was looking for this comment. You made me proud!
I think the initial problem was likely a mediocre uGPA as it is not mentioned.
Seriously. I've been grinding to find a better job out of a small POS bank for 5 yrs and haven't deigned to post such a jeremiad (thanks GRE studying). Bit of an entitled 'tude (wtf counts years in college?). More practically, it's probably also partly a poorly crafted story. This should be a slam dunk "I've built the hard skills, but I'm really excited to be more client facing, &c &c..." to get in the door, then it should be a numbers game to find a spot - still young enough to be an analyst somewhere.
ah...woah, thank you fine sir! It was lo & hither-to all gates for IB hath blessed me with their golden embrace; with frail arms and mouldy spirit was I rapping on Goldman's door; but with your guidance, your wisdom, sage, was I quick to change my mantra and instantaneously become an finance-analyst-rocketship-dinosaur bankerman.
ONLY through accepting that attitude carries the mystical power; a force SO great that in passing by, it can make women barren, steel fry, species extint, all with a single "harUMPH!"--And yet all this time all I had to do was change my attitude!
I write you from my super-vS model super-luxury rocket fromagio yatch.
And that ladies and gentlemen... is why this guy is still a Prospect.
And it's formaggio yacht.
you sound like you have a false perception of what IB even is. have you talked to people and networked? any schmuck studying finance and models for months can build LBO models or DCFs. everyone can do that with time. try to network and show them you are a pleasure to work with and are a workhorse who has a positive attitude and doesn’t give up. isn’t that the key to success in any career?
for practical advice, go get your MBA and then you’ll have access to all the banks, if you aren’t confident in your ability to network your way in without an MBA.
thanks!
Yes
I approve this ree
[barely surpressed REEEEEEE´ing in the distance]
Your attitude is horrible, especially your clear tendency to blame external factors.
Yes - this is a good quote for the OP:
"A man only begins to be a man when he ceases to whine and revile, and commences to search for the hidden justice which regulates his life. And he adapts his mind to that regulating factor, he ceases to accuse others as the cause of his condition, and builds himself up in strong and noble thoughts; ceases to kick against circumstances, but begins to use them as aids to his more rapid progress, and as a means of the hidden powers and possibilities within himself.”
-James Allen, As a Man Thinketh
Show me where I blamed external factors. While I do sound bitchy, I'm complaining. If I were where I wanted to be I wouldn't complain.I did not assign blame to internal nor ext. factors though the former can be blamed.
My request is to literally show me what to ascribe culpability to so I can ▲ it, cause I have 0 clue where things fell apart m_1
Why the obsession with IB? Do you realize that 80+% of people who enter it leave for other opps? And most of them leave for PE/corp dev (and let me tell you, for 80% of those who leave via the PE track, they are forced to leave that and never break back into buyside again). So why?
The job itself is unrewarding in nearly every possible way. I have both interned and worked in banking briefly (thank the lords I was able to exit to AM within 6 months), and despite the brevity of that stint, saw more than enough reason to justify never wanting to do it again. For instance, the head MD of our group had suffered a stroke and 2 heart attacks before he was even 30 due to the stress. The stroke left him permanently crippled to the point where he now walks with a limp. THINK ABOUT THAT.
Another time I was going to a pitch in SF with the 3 MDs. One of them told me "as the analyst you have 2 jobs. You carry all the pitch books (which weighed like 30 pounds because this guy was paranoid and was a bit*ch to carry) and order an Uber Black for the MDs." This was all while we were already late for the pitch and I saw that the Uber Black was 7min away while the regular Uber was 2min away. I told this story at my current firm and my boss could not believe it. Both on the car ride to the pitch and the ride back, all these guys talked about were how rich other guys they knew were. One MD mentioned how he knew a guy on 3 S&P500 boards pulling 350k per seat despite already being worth high-8 figures and how he was debating adding a fourth while bemoaning he didn't get that. This is all while making 7 figures. How the hell do you want to be around people like this?
Understand, I'm not saying this is every banker in the world, just that these types of situations vastly over-index to banking in a way you see with very few professions (maybe corporate law). Even so, the job itself, at least from the analyst / associate / VP level is absolute crap. At both shops I was at (interning & FT), the associates stayed nearly as late as the analysts. The VP got some the interesting sales role aspect but 80% was bogged down in 'QBing' the deck creation, whatever the hell that meant. All you are are doing is creating powerpoint slides each day, and even the models require zero critical thinking as you are not trying to understand sales drivers, margin levers, etc., you are just plugging in some SS guy's numbers, who has put 0 though into any numbers beyond 1yr as most of his clients (HFs) are within that horizon. Tell me how you feel remotely justified as an MD pitching an acquisition to a client based on a year 5 terminal value when you know years 2-5 are BS? The lack of morality and twisted incentives to just do as many deals as possible for the fees, irrespective of whether it would be good for your client baffles me.
Further, hard to put an avg hours per week worked as it could vary depending on deal flow, but I estimate it was 70-80hrs a week. And worse than this, the hours aren't standard. You could make nice evening plans with friends / gf and then it turns out your a*sshole MD decides to drop work on you at 5pm that could have either been handed to you 5 hours earlier or waited till the next day. So you not only lead this challenging professional life where your value-add is minimal and hours are brutal, but you start losing touch with your personal life and the people that matter to you. What about this sounds appealing to you?
There are some many more rewarding opps out there even in finance, like AM / corp dev / RE / corp fin if you are interested. And plenty of stuff outside of finance too even if you don't start at 6-figures. I'm working in the first one on West Coast, pulling down 6 figures starting and working 50hrs per week at a fund where all we do is compound client capital for LT. I feel good about what I do, see the direct impact of my research in stocks that we buy, and make good money doing it. Sure, I work harder than the avg person at 40hrs per week but I barely notice it as I love this job so much. And there are plenty of people I know in roles mentioned above that do the same. Find something like that instead of chasing "prestige," which is a concept you care about now, but most of your peers will stop caring about it in 5-10yrs. Why go for something transitory that detracts from nearly all other aspects of your life? Think hard about these questions.
Now my advice is you get your MBA, ideally at an MBA business schools">M7 but if not at a Top 20 school. You'll meet tons of interesting people, learn about a ton of different careers, and get a better sense of what you want. Don't get me wrong, chances you break into buyside without any experience / pedigree are low but absolutely anything else is available to you. So take a day and think about this, take another day and just relax & do what you love, and then get to work.
Please pardon any typos as this was written in one go on glass on my iPad.
TRUE BRUV. MDs are jelly of their CEO and PE masters. Since they have to sell, they never feel like they're the top dog because they answer directly to their corporate clients. I get why they bemoan their position.
I still don't know about the prestige part. In finance, people care an awful lot about prestige and what school you went to even 20 years down the road.
Hah the MDs talking up their rich buddies is classic.
And the term "QBing" the deck is so bad. Can't believe it was (is) a coveted term.
Rest of your post contains so much truth, wow.
A great point. I think this is one of the things that doesn't get talked much about much on this forum, the idea that some of the most unappealing people in the world work in IB (and Wall Street at large) and why in the world would you want to be around these types. It should be discussed more.
While I didn't work in IB, I did work in its cousin MC as an analyst and looking back on it now, I can't believe how shallow and petty my senior colleagues could be. For instance, a partner cynically complaining about a weekend brunch with his sister/her husband, and even saying in the most sarcastic tone: "....and of course, I ended up paying for it all." As if spending quality time with family and enjoying a nice meal was such a chore. Nevermind you now make enough money to treat the people you care about to something nice every once in a while. These kinds of incidents were not uncommon.
Hedgehog9's comment of: "How the hell do you want to be around people like this?" hits the nail on the head. Perhaps taking it one step further, you can ask yourself: do I want to turn into one of these people? After all, it's been said before you are the sum of the 5 people you hang around the most. While not every Wall Street professional is like this, chances are you'll run into more than a few and after spending 80+ hours/week around them, at least some their negative traits will rub off on you.
*OP HERE: *" And plenty of stuff outside of finance too even if you don't start at 6-figures. I'm working in the first one on West Coast, pulling down 6 figures starting and working 50hrs per week at a fund where all we do is compound client capital for LT. I feel good about what I do, see the direct impact of my research in stocks that we buy, and make good money doing it. Sure, I work harder than the avg person at 40hrs per week but I barely notice it as I love this job so much" Do you mind explaining more about how you got this opp? Thanks
I'm actually NOT disputing what you say; I want to clarify why I want IBD (i really don't, but barring changing of college experiences, It's not available)
I'd enjoy if everyone on this thread could read my response to "Why IB?" because it's unique to someone AFTER graduation
1). I DON"T especially "want" to do IBD. At 26(ish), after a bachelor's degree, I have no other options that are "good" venues. I could do sales (eegh!) I could do audit (actually I don't have the skills or care to) and I could do some bullshit backoffice jobs (no. I side with Orangutndm's manic posting about BO jobs, as I've had 1 or 2 before!) IBD is the only "good" option available to someone with my skillset! I don't have the skills to switch to being a skydiving instructor, dr or Navy SEAL, now do I? I only know building models etc
1.2).#### [IBD is **coveted **not because it IS the END GOAL: it is verily the means to another business-job, such as consulting, financial analysis, high-calibre corp dev, Venture Capital, etcetera. (An aside about VC: IBD is the ONLY non-engineering way to crack into VC. I've never seen someone from Accounting or Corporate FP&A break in, haha,it's almost absurd because it's uncommon)]
Engineers are given a leg up in finance jobs cause, tbh they do a lot more than the average finance bloke
Please refute/advise as you see fit. I'm really glad so many folks responded and I AM seriously considering friendly advice (MBA, etc) but hear me when I tell you I am blue from all the career-fuckwaddery.
Gracis
Lol sounds about right.
I’ve seen IB analyst exit to PE or some trendy startup like WeWork/Bird only to find themselves exiting to unemployment.
The so call “exit opportunity” is overrated. It just means there’s no longevity in your career.
You think advising a client is cool? I m a new grad and I make int. business trips where I am the client being serviced.
BRUUHHHH you’re killing me. a majority of finance graduates end up in middle-back office gigs. 2% of finance grads end up in IB. IB isn’t the golden standard considering almost everyone leaves it. I know a guy who did IB and switched to a product manager role and is now learning to code. you might feel stuck in a shitty middle office job right now (I’ve been there) but figure out what you want to do that’s realistic at this point and not IB. start looking at your dream jobs and what those requirements are..talk to your current boss about incorporating those into your current job goals, maybe see if there’s another team at your company that you can start doing side work for, include that on your resume, try to avoid putting shit you never wanna do again in your resume. leverage any contact you have and keep applying to jobs even if you think you’re not qualified. use this time to brush up on your interview skills and how to TrueBlue sell yourself
OP HERE: "a majority of finance graduates end up in middle-back office gigs. 2% of finance grads end up in IB"
Yes, why I am vretching. I wound up in middle/BO and picked up a US NAVY application AFTER my consulting/HedgeFund internships...what a nail in the coffin for my goals" I felt. Finance isn't "the golden ticket" we think it is during freshman year, in fact its' almost fruitless.
"I know a guy...who switched to product manager...and is now learning to code" Yeah, it always boils back down to STEM engineering, fuck.I visited my friends' brothers at our college and he said 1/3 of his finance frat (fuck frats at my university ) were engineering students--they aren't nerdy, they aren't fat, they admit they're doing it so they can ACTUALLY get a finance job. It has begun...
This part fucks me over:
figure out what you want to do that's realistic at this point...start looking at your dream jobs and what those requirements are...
My dream jobs would require a PhD in biomedical stats/and/or math/PhD in something (admittedly IDK what but in that vein?)
that's 4 years UG, 4-5 for grad. That'd make me 34 when I start getting paid and I'll compete with literal children who are working for some big-tech firm(?)
I do feel finance is a bad choice for anyone BUT
I totally get your frustrations. I’ve been there. You go through college learning all this crazy finance shit thinking you’re gonna get some bomb ass Wall Street job but that’s just not the case for most people. I’ve been stuck in back and middle office roles and I used to HATE talking about work to my friends bc I hated/was embarrassed of it. So my friends always joke they have no idea what I do and I wish I picked an easy job that everyone understands like “oh I’m a dentist.” Or “I’m a third grade teacher”. With those jobs You don’t have to sit there and explain random useless shit about budgets and projects that people don’t understand if they don’t work with you. But now I’m learning to accept that everyone’s jobs kinda suck when you think About it. Like every job is repetitive and not exciting at times. Even doctors do the same shit everyday. So I guess I’m saying just try and be realistic about your career path. You’re clearly not gonna get a PhD or time travel. Everyone would’ve done something differently if they could see into the future back then. That’s life. So maybe settle for a Project management certification Or yes, take a fkn coding class. Maybe explore business analytics. Big data is huge. Actually knowing business & tech together will make you way more valueable than knowing how to discount a cash flow. I’m ranting now so I’m gonna end it here
Tech careers at a top company company is where it’s at. (ie FAANG not some bullshit overvalued startup)
If you observe, many IB/MC are exiting to tech in a strategy/Pm role.
It’s honestly not a bad gig but they’re still 2nd class to the engineer. For how much hype there is on this site, IB/MC is no longer the top job anymore.
You seem mostly interested in doing something that society will label as upper tier. You even implied that you'd be a doctor or dentist if you were a few years younger.
First of all, if you actually would enjoy being a doctor, you should go do that. There are a lot of people who start medical school late, you wouldn't be weird as a 26 year old med student. Older sure, but people see it all the time. Other grad programs (MBA, law) have no set entry point and have many students who are a few years older.
But more importantly, you get one life. Every field is lucrative for those at the top of the field. So why don't you figure out what you'd actually be good at, rather than chasing some very basic idea of what impresses others.
At the EARLIEST It'd be 28 starting medschool.
+4 years, then between 4-14 for residency
If I were 18 again, definitely do med school
Yeah and you’ll be 70 when you retire. Play the long game.
Clearly you know how to do the work, but bankers aren’t always just looking for that since anyone can easily learn how to do models / pitch books. Networking is the most important and showcasing that you’re an interesting person that people wouldn’t mind working alongside. and that’s exactly where networking comes into play
Thank you!
What are your hobbies?
...why?
So s/he can network in to finance. DUH>
Hit the well-trodden reset button that's perfect for professionals your age: top percentile GMAT -> Top MBA -> Banking recruiting. Your previous banking-adjacent experience will help you stand out from your classmates, who may come from a wide variety of less relevant backgrounds.
OP you weak
here is the lesson...supply and demand
there are not unlimited jobs in any particular niche/industry
so, if there are 1000 job opening in IB every year, but 5000 people who are qualified and want that job..what happens? 4,000 people don't get the job they want but are qualified for.
thats just how the real world works. so you either beat out the 4001 people you are competing against....or you don't. How do you beat them...depends on circumstance.
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