NFL to VP in Investment Banking
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Member @Kindred.Soul shares his journey from a walk-on at his undergrad D1 football program all the way to the NFL. Learn why he left professional football after only 3 years, why it was at the worst possible time, how he broke into investment banking and the struggles he's overcome at his bulge bracket bank to get promoted.
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Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:04] It. Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, member Kindred. Soul shares his journey from a walk on at his undergrad D1 football program all the way to the NFL. Learn why he left professional football after only three years, why it was at the worst possible time, how he broke into investment banking and the struggles he's had to overcome at his bulge bracket bank to get promoted. Enjoy. All right, Kindred Soul, thank you so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
Kindred.SOul: [00:01:04] No problem. Thanks for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:06] So it'd be great if you could just give the listeners a quick summary of your background. You can be as vague as you want, so keep your anonymity.
Kindred.SOul: [00:01:14] Yeah, so originally from the Midwest came out to the West Coast to do my undergrad. As we mentioned, played football, bounced around the NFL for for a little bit. And then it was the Great Recession fell upon us and that was happened to be transitioning. From the NFL trying to figure out what was next and obviously not a very good time to be trying to make a career change, especially without the background. But I had an interest in finance and fortunately I had some. Alumni, folks that were in my network that were in the financial services industry, and I got a chance to pick their brain a little bit about some of the things that they were doing, some of the interest that I had, some of the deals that were kind of coming my way. And, you know, as I had that conversation with them. The fact that I was interested in in financial services, private equity or venture capital kind of however you want to think about it, their advice to me, given the time and what was going on in the country and the economy broadly, and my lack of experience was to take this time and go back to school, get an MBA, focus on finance and then take a shot at investment banking. If you liked it, the way that we kind of talked it out was, if you like it, you'll have a skill set. You would be teed up for a journey that can take you any number of places within the financial services industry. If you don't, you have a skill set that is well regarded across industry and working in large teams, leadership, high pressure situations and the like. And so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:11] For sure,
Kindred.SOul: [00:03:12] That's a little bit kind of my snapshot.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:14] Cool, man. So can we go back to just college and what that was like you when you kind of were coming into school? Did you have visions of, Hey, I'm going to I'm going to make it to the league, I'm going to make it to the NFL? Or did you? Was it something where like, I'm just going to work my ass off and try as hard as I can to to make an impact? Or was that like a dream of yours? Or was that something that you had kind of focused on?
Kindred.SOul: [00:03:38] It was it was definitely a dream. It was something that I believed in my core, but I was I was actually a walk on to the football team, so I didn't have a scholarship when I first started. I just grew up in an environment that forced you to compete. I was willing to go compete. And so I got when I got on the campus, found out who was the best guy at my position, and I stayed in his shadow as much as I could as a true freshman. He was an older guy, senior, well regarded and well on his way to the NFL and all-American. I think his senior year. And you know, my my approach was to just compete with him at every turn. Obviously, I'm not. Not the same player, not the same build, not the same characteristics or attributes as it relates to speed, strength, quickness. But I, you know, I saw a lot of myself in him and knew that I could compete and do some things probably that he couldn't
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:45] Tell me about, like, was he open to helping you or did he see you as competition and just wanted to kick your ass every day at practice?
Kindred.SOul: [00:04:54] I think initially he probably he probably, you know, I just wanted to help. As we as the year progressed on, I think he realized that if he had more time on campus, they've probably been a more contentious competition. Yeah, but given he was, he only had that last season, he knew I wasn't coming for his spot.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:13] So why do you think you?
Kindred.SOul: [00:05:16] Why do you?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:18] Why do you think you were just to walk on if you? I mean, the fact that you had such a successful college career in football, how do you think you were able to even be a walk on? Why weren't you recruited?
Kindred.SOul: [00:05:29] Uh, so, you know, it was it was a number of things and, you know, the recruiting cycle and and everything, especially back then, wasn't as robust as it is now. Um, the the the team actually in the year that I came out of a meeting that I came out of high school, we only had a handful of sky. It was 13 scouts and most teams are anywhere between 15 and 20 on an annualized basis. And that year they were just down the numbers. I had some scholarships to some other schools. Got it, but I didn't. I didn't. They weren't at the same conference level or Division one level and I wanted to. I wanted to play at that level, so I took calculated risk. It was not an easy decision to pass on a free education.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:27] And so, so what? So like, you're a walk on. You didn't have a scholarship, so it wasn't a free education, but you thought, Hey, if I if I work really hard, I become really good, then they they actually can give you a scholarship later down the road, down the line. Is that how it works?
Kindred.SOul: [00:06:42] Yeah, that was kind of how I was thinking, Wow.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:45] And betting on yourself, man, that's better than betting on yourself.
Kindred.SOul: [00:06:48] Exactly. That's exactly right. I knew I could play. I grew up in an environment where there was a lot of guys who had gone on and played both college and professionally. And, you know, I compete with them as I grew up. So I was confident that I could play at that level, and I knew I was willing to work hard to get a chance
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:10] And tell me a little bit. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. Tell me a little bit about like balancing schoolwork with all the practices. And is it like realistic? And I know a lot of the student athletes don't do as well academically. Did you struggle with that because you were just it's such a huge commitment.
Kindred.SOul: [00:07:29] It is. I mean, it's definitely tough. There's only 24 hours in the day, right? And a good chunk of your day is over in the athletic facilities. But you know, you know, with any level of greatness comes great sacrifice. And you know, if you wanted, you wanted to put yourself in the best position. And then, you know, part of the draw to the school was academics and athletics. And um, you know, thinking about who I wanted to be and where I wanted to go was. You got to work hard at anything that you want to be successful at. So as an intellectually curious person, you're going to have to work hard in the classroom, especially when you're surrounded by students who are who are thinking about the coursework and the studies and much more of the day than you are. You just got to compete. And that's so fortunate that I grew up in that kind of environment.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:29] So you're intellectually curious. You're actually, you know, studying, you're doing well in classes, you're doing well on the football field. Did you have a backup? Like, were you like NFL or bust or did you were you saying, Hey, I better do well in school just in case I don't get drafted or whatever happened? Maybe I get injured? Were you actively looking at finance careers back in school? Where you in networking? What were you doing back then? Or was it just all like, really focused on trying to make it to the league?
Kindred.SOul: [00:08:54] It was. It was very focused, but the school did a good job of surrounding us with resources and letting us know that as our goals and the focal points changed throughout our lives, that we had resources that were around us that could help us try to make sense of things. And you know, I did an internship in my sophomore summer
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:21] And was it financial
Kindred.SOul: [00:09:22] Venture capital firm?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:24] Ok, cool.
Kindred.SOul: [00:09:25] And you know, the stuff that they have me doing was pretty rudimentary as a sophomore, but it was good exposure to kind of the financial services space. Private capital asset managers in particular, kind of kind of whet my appetite a little bit as it relates to venture capital and private equity. And in the, you know, this is the early 2000s. So you're hearing all of these wildly successful stories. So I knew that was an area that was of interest to me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:57] Yeah, you were.
Kindred.SOul: [00:09:58] You were in school. Spend a lot of time in it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:01] Yeah, you were in school at a really interesting time because it was right when kind of the tech bubble burst. And then, you know, you come out. So it's pretty interesting. So tell me a little bit about. So you were getting a little bit of exposure. You got a sophomore internship. What about junior internship? Or at that point, you were like really excelling on the team. You felt like, Hey, I have a really good shot. Or was there another internship junior
Kindred.SOul: [00:10:22] Year that that that that that summer? We kind of we had we had a change in our. Coaching staff and I was trying to move back to the defensive side of the ball and there was a lot of focus on making sure that the team was together throughout the summer. And so I didn't take a take a summer internship that year, and we just we just trained all summer. Together with the with the change in coaching staff, it was incumbent upon us as kind of the guys who were still around to try to ensure that we held together and stuck by each other as a squad.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:04] So it was more intense. You felt like with the new. Yeah.
Kindred.SOul: [00:11:07] Yeah, it was. It was. It was a unique summer, that's for sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:12] Two a days or three of days in the gym or something?
Kindred.SOul: [00:11:16] Yeah, we definitely we were. We would have morning conditioning sessions, afternoon workouts and then follow that up with seven on seven and one on one type drills for the DBS and the offensive linemen and stuff like that. And we were really trying to kind of put our best foot forward. This new staff, that's great.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:36] So it sounds like you had success. So tell me a little bit about just graduating and what's it like to declaring for even being? I don't even know what that process would look like. You declare for the draft or how does it after your senior season or during your season, senior season? What's the timing of all that? And like, what if? What if you don't get drafted or was there some indication had teams been like reaching out and saying, Hey, we like we like you, like how much? I guess the question is, how sure were you that by the time you know where you had to make that decision of, Hey, I should start looking for a job? How much time did you have between, like graduating and actually knowing?
Kindred.SOul: [00:12:12] Yeah. So that's a good question. So after my senior season, the last game was late November. I had been selected to play in an all star game and at that kind of like a mini NFL combine. So the NFL teams come in and coach. They send a coaching staff from one of the 32 teams to coach each of the squads and the all star game, and then the rest of the scouting universe comes in, descends upon the area where you're where you're practicing and where that game was going to be held. So I had a pretty good sense that I was going to get a chance to play in the NFL. I didn't know where I was going to go, whether I was going to be drafted or any of that stuff. So I went back home to the Midwest and started training for the all star game played in the all star game. Had a great experience.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:14] Did you do well in that game?
Kindred.SOul: [00:13:17] I did. Yeah, no, I played. I played well, probably. Second, a third leading tackler in the game and had a good had a good week. I think, you know, she really showcased my athletic ability and how quickly I could pick up different defenses and things like that. I was never the biggest, strongest guy. So it was it was always incumbent upon me to be in the right spot.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:39] Yeah, exactly. It's kind of tough to be the biggest, strongest guy in the NFL nowadays, right? Guys, your beast. Anyway, so. So you're OK.
Kindred.SOul: [00:13:52] Work it out. Yeah. You know, go to the NFL, combine in February, and then there's some more workouts that you have through February to March and April and the drafts at the end of April and was fortunate to hear fortunate enough to hear my name call.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:08] Do you feel like the combine hurt your stock since you weren't the most athletic?
Kindred.SOul: [00:14:13] Oh, you know, it's funny, you probably did, I actually pulled my hamstring the week before, oh gosh, so I didn't run before. I only do limited drills, so I probably did hurt myself a little bit.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:26] Yeah, yeah. Ok, so you're going through this and then draft day comes, I guess, what was it like third day, fourth day? What was the what was it, I guess? How does it work? Is it? It's three days or so.
Kindred.SOul: [00:14:40] Right? Or back then it was just two days. Two days, OK, the next the next four on the second day got it. And I kind of knew I wasn't going to be a first day guy, right? I didn't watch the first round. I didn't watch the second round. I kind of, you know, been pegged in the third through sixth type timeframe. So I didn't even want to put myself through that agony. So I just went bowling. And then the second day, second day came around and that's, you know, that's a bit more nerve wracking because, you know, you're looking at the clock and waiting for your phone to ring and checking in with people and you're watching who's getting drafted and it's nerve wracking. And it was it was miserable.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:23] And you're like, and you're like, Hey, that guy, I'm better than that guy. Some guy gets drafted like, I'm better than that guy, right? That's funny. So, so you get a call eventually, and it's exciting. You don't have to say what team or anything like that. But so you know you're officially in the league, right? Tell me a little bit about just the process of and we'll get we'll get to the other stuff later. I'm going to I'm going to get off football soon. But just tell me a little bit about just the whole transition from school to being an actual professional. And, you know, really it being your full time job. It was it was it kind of what you expected? Was it more gruelling? The competition level, obviously, is just a huge jump. Tell me a little bit about how you felt like were you? Were you starting on the practice squad? How long did it take you to to get off? Or did you stay on the practice squad? Or were you able to kind of make the jump ever into the games? I think I think you were, but be great about that.
Kindred.SOul: [00:16:20] So, you know, I got drafted that first training camp was was eye opening. You know, you're on you're on the practice field now with the guys you've idolized as a kid growing up watching, playing football, the guys that you've known and seen playing on Sundays. So it was it was, you know, it's kind of funny to I remember the first day and kind of get goosebumps as I walk in the locker room and you see the helmet logo and you're like,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:53] Wow, yeah, it's like, I'm here.
Kindred.SOul: [00:16:57] Yeah, it's so cool to jump in terms of talent is noticeable. And you know, you remember those kind of first couple of plays where you're out there and you think, you know what you're supposed to be doing and the ball is snapped and everybody's flying and you're moving, but you're not doing the things that you're supposed to be doing. So it's kind of it's got a little bit of a rude awakening. Is it just to feel
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:26] Like I assume it's just faster? I yeah, I assume it's just faster. And then the guys are just so much. It's almost like you have to note you have to be sharper, faster in even better positioning. Plus now, especially for you not being the biggest or strongest guy you have to or fastest. You have to kind of even rely on that more, but also try to close that gap athletically, right?
Kindred.SOul: [00:17:48] Absolutely. You know, those inches are what separates, right? The good from, you know, the good from the great. Yeah. And you see that that becomes more and more apparent that that split second decision or that twitch or that fall step is really impactful.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:04] Tell me about Tell me about your comp. Tell me about your confidence level, like when you first those first few practices where you're like, Oh shit, there's no way. Or were you like, I can? I can get there. Or, like, did you always have that confidence?
Kindred.SOul: [00:18:16] Well, for me, it was always, you got to stay positive and you start thinking that you can't do it. You won't be able to do it. And that'll just it'll just spiral on itself and it'll devolve and you'll be out, you'll be out the door here pretty quick. So, yeah, know, stay positive. Take the coaching and try to be critical of yourself and figure out the things that you can do better on any given play, any given day, any given practice, game or whatever. That was the mentality. And you know, you start to find those little, those little victories, and then they become bigger and bigger accomplishments. And then you're making plays and getting sacks and forcing fumbles and stuff like that and you're rocking and rolling.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:03] Nice. So how long did it take you to kind of get on the game day roster?
Kindred.SOul: [00:19:09] So it took me a little while, I got I got cut from the team I was drafted by, even though I was the third or the fourth highest scoring defender that we had, we had this point system on our defense. Yeah. Why do you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:25] Think? Why do you think that
Kindred.SOul: [00:19:26] Was picked up when somebody put again?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:28] Why do you think you were cut if you were doing so well?
Kindred.SOul: [00:19:32] Just I think I was focused on the wrong, the wrong things as a as a late round draft pick and a rookie. I was trying to shine on defense and show that I could be the starter on defense, and they had picked a line backer before me. They had to Pro Bowl guys
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:53] Instead of what, showing special teams instead of focusing on special teams.
Kindred.SOul: [00:19:57] Yeah, I did not focus on special teams in the way I should have. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:00] Got it. Fair. Ok. See, yeah, you're thinking I can get I can be the starter here and head of that guy that was after me. Yeah. So, OK. But you get picked back up and so you're jumping around a bunch of teams and what the how overall you were there for four years in the league? Is that right?
Kindred.SOul: [00:20:18] Yeah. Because three, three, three years, three years.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:20] Ok, so you're you jump around a few teams, you know, you you're kind of is it jumping between practice squads and game day rosters? Kind of most, most of your time in the league?
Kindred.SOul: [00:20:29] Yeah, that's exactly right. It was some weeks you're here on the practice squad. The other week somebody gets hurt, you get bumped up. And then, you know, you're just it was literally kind of the true gentleman's career living out of a duffel bag in the hotel extended stays because I got an apartment after I got drafted and then I got cut and I was like, Well, we don't want to do this again. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:52] So tell me a little bit about just that life in terms of like, when did you decide to say, Hey, that's enough, I'm going to start, you know, maybe I'll go back to school. When did you when did that start kind of creeping into your head? Was it like after the third time you were cut or second time? Like, when did when did some of those things of like, Hey, maybe I should start looking elsewhere? When did that happen?
Kindred.SOul: [00:21:14] Yeah, so the last team that I was with asked me to sign an injury waiver, basically that said, because you have these this bad backs, you have bulging disc in your back. If you get hurt from the waist down, we're not going to pay you anything. And we're like, we're not going to cover your medical or nothing like that. And I was like, that is a ridiculous deal. Yeah, and I can't. I can't. I can't in good faith sign that right? And that was that was the moment where it was like, well, you got to figure out what you want to do next because this you we're not doing that anymore.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:50] Yeah, you're not going to risk your ability to just be
Kindred.SOul: [00:21:54] Miserable and stuff. It's people tear their ACL and pull hamstrings. And I mean, the TV's all kinds of injuries. Yeah, they're saying that that my pre exposed condition, pre-existing condition was going to cause me to not be supported if I got hurt while I was playing this game.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:17] Yeah, screw that and screw that. Not worth it. Not worth it. I don't blame you. So, OK, so when you kind of were presented with that, what went through your head was, you're like, OK, were you angry? Were you like, OK, now I just I got to figure out what I'm doing and like, where do you? Where did you turn? Where did you turn men? Because like, that's kind of a scary thing. Like, you haven't made a ton of money, right? You made some money or sue, but you haven't made like you're not making, you know, you weren't bringing in millions. You're probably bringing a couple of hundred, thou right or something like that. But yeah, yeah, OK.
Kindred.SOul: [00:22:51] It was it was really scary. I mean, it was. It was. What did we do? What are we doing now? And I knew, you know, I was a smart guy. And, you know, I like to think I'm a personable individual that somebody will help and there will be an opportunity for me. But it was it was scary. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I hadn't really formalized any of those thoughts around what was going to what I was going to do next. But the good thing was that my father. It always been talking to me about the fact that the likelihood that I make enough money in the NFL to never work again is very, very, very, very, very, very low, right? And so I always had the understanding that I was going to have to do something after the game. And so I didn't have that kind of breakdown where I this was the only thing that I knew, and this is the only thing that I wanted to do. It was, OK, well, this chapter is closing. What are what are some of the other things that you're interested in doing? And if you can find some people that are doing those things? Treat it exactly the same as you did when you showed up on campus as a freshman and try to do the things that they're doing. See, see how they're thinking about the problems that they're looking at and compete in that same way. So fortunately enough for me, there was some resources in our alumni network that as I started to have conversations and describe some of the things that I was interested in and, you know, given the NFL and the public perception that everybody in the NFL is rich, especially at the time, there was a lot of people that were bringing different investment opportunities. My way and I
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:34] You're like, Man, I can't invest yet. Like, I can't invest any of that to live.
Kindred.SOul: [00:24:39] I knew that I needed to live one, too. I don't. I wasn't savvy enough, and I knew I wasn't savvy enough to think that I could determine whether or not this is something that I should be throwing my money at, which is right where a lot of these NFL guys
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:53] Lose your shirt, you know? Yeah, yeah. I don't remember the stat. I don't know about NFL, but I know NBA. I think something crazy high percentage of the players go bankrupt within like five years. Yeah, and the NBA guys make a lot more in the NFL, guys. I do so. But so, OK, tell me a little bit about. So you're kind of making that transition. Did you move back like, where did you go? Did you go back home? Did you to kind of regroup or did you immediately come back towards school or what did you do?
Kindred.SOul: [00:25:21] No, I moved to I moved to Los Angeles now by the beach for a little bit. Nice live down in the Venice Beach area. My relationship at the time was was based there, and, you know, it was just trying to trying to figure things out, and fortunately for me that some of those network folks, the alumni network that I tapped into was based there as well. And so I had the chance to kind of really pick their brains and sit down with them on multiple occasions to try to kind of map out what. So you literally
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:58] You literally stopped playing in the NFL, probably the worst possible time and like the last four years. So, so you stop right before the financial crisis, financial crisis hits. You're talking. All these finance guys are like, sorry, man, it's bad out there, right? So, so
Kindred.SOul: [00:26:14] Yes, they were like, I don't even know if I could hire you if you had a skill set in which you don't at this point, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:20] It was that bad. So tell me a little bit about that time period between, you know, when you stopped to when you looks like you got your MBA, you started, got your MBA. Tell me about that and what kind of prompted you to go back to school and what was going on?
Kindred.SOul: [00:26:33] Well, I mean, it was it was tough, right? I mean, nobody was hiring. This was 2008 2009 timeframe. Mm hmm. You know, you've got a degree from a good school, but you don't have any work experience outside of playing professional football, which is nice to talk about. But in the context of a corporation is not really doing a ton, especially as they're all trying to determine where the bottom is and how they can cut expenses. And so, you know, I tried to I tried everything. I tried to get a job as a trash collector. I tried to get the job as the FedEx delivery guy. I was either overqualified from my degree in like, why? Why would you want to do this job? Or I was under wildly underqualified and would need and needed some experience?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:24] Yeah, you were just trying to get any job at that point because it had been a while since you stopped. You're like, I need a pay check, right? So I can imagine it's super stressful. You're down in L.A. for a while then and like, you're just applying to anything and everything because it's just a horrible time. So, OK, so they eventually did somebody just tell you, Hey, just go get an MBA or did that come to you? What? What, what prompted that move?
Kindred.SOul: [00:27:45] Yeah, that kind of came out of the conversations and with the with the folks in financial services from the alumni network was, look, if this is something that you're interested in longer term, if you go back to school, get an MBA focus in finance, you'll have this. This can put you on the right path. And this is a great time to do it, since nobody's really hiring and you'll come out and this will be a better economic environment. There'll be some opportunities and you can you can go tell your story and make a lot of sense.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:18] Awesome. So tell me a little bit about the MBA program. Was it was it a good experience for you? Was it hard? Was the where the class is hard? Was it something where like the recruiting was easy, networking some a little bit about like the on campus recruiting? Did you start right away? Did you know banking was the one what you wanted to do or was it? Yeah. Were you looking at everything? I was.
Kindred.SOul: [00:28:39] I was fortunate that I, you know, given those conversations with some people who I viewed as very well respected in their industry. Yeah, I knew what I was going to do. I knew I was going to go in. I knew I was going to focus on finance. I knew I was going to go into investment banking. And so that was the sole focus from day one. Great. And when you juxtapose going back and getting a grad degree and the undergrad experience where you're balancing football and academics, it was incredibly manageable for me because, you know, you don't have to go spend six hours or whatever at the athletic facility, just training and not focused on classes. So I just dove right in and did everything I could. From a finance perspective, I took every finance class I could took all kinds of trips up to, to New York City to start networking and trying to get my name around and some of these firms that I was looking at.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:42] Did that come naturally to you? Did that come naturally? Like, did you know that networking was so critical? Or did someone of your alumni tell you, like, you just need to meet people?
Kindred.SOul: [00:29:49] No, I think it came from conversations with folks who had who I talked to and one piece of really good advice that I got from the some of the original folks who told me to go back to school and try to try banking was anytime you have a conversation with somebody and you leave feeling like this was a good, a good interaction, ask that person to introduce you to one or two other people. That could be helpful. As you're thinking about pursuing an opportunity with that firm right now, know that really helps get your cast a wide net.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:28] Yeah, it builds the web, right? It builds a huge web network. You just start getting more and more people
Kindred.SOul: [00:30:33] That you can meet and you will. All you're trying to do is build up enough of those positive data points that as they're going through the process of saying, you know, is this person somebody we want to consider or is that person somebody want to consider and everybody's got a fairly positive interaction with you, the more people you have, the better you're going to be.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:53] That's great. So was the was the recruiting for like you knew then given your alumni guidance and you had been talking to people, you knew that kind of that first summer internship in the NBA was important. So tell me a little bit about like the recruiting process there where you immediately like it sounds like you were going up to New York. You were meeting people. But was it tough coming from the NBA you were at? Or was it something where like they were on campus recruiting heavily?
Kindred.SOul: [00:31:19] There was there was a decent amount of on campus recruitment, but I knew that just given where I was at, what my background was, that I wanted to make sure that I put my full effort into everything. And so there was a little bit of on campus recruitment. But I, you know, I took it upon myself to say, Look, if traveling to New York and having coffee with somebody who's going to be, yeah, the thing that gets me the job that I'm going to go, I'm going to go do that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:51] How many times do you think you did that? How many times do you think you went up there?
Kindred.SOul: [00:31:56] Probably 10. That's great. Yeah, ten times or so as to that first semester trying to. That's unbelievable.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:05] That's unbelievable. It's smart, though. Ok, so you it worked out. You've got a great internship. You survived your summer associate internship, which
Kindred.SOul: [00:32:15] Which is the best way to describe it to is survived because I think it was it was tough.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:20] I think the seat that you were in in terms of like not having banking background before, not having any finance experience before and getting thrown into a summer associate class has got to be the most difficult thing because you have analysts under you that can run circles around you and modeling because they've been doing it for two years. And then you're like trying to manage them, right?
Kindred.SOul: [00:32:40] It's like, you know, what is that? As I think about it, I sit here and think about it. It felt a lot like going from high school to college on the football field and then college to the NFL, where everything was just moving so fast. And yes, you can catch some concepts because you're smart and you've been looking at some things. But the pace at which people were doing stuff was just insane. Well, well exceeding what I was, what I was capable. So, you know, I didn't get the offer right away in that group. They gave me an offering like private wealth management or something like that. And I was like, I want to do that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:16] Yeah, so interesting. So like you, you feel like you just struggled over the summer to kind of grasp everything and everything was moving so fast. I think it's almost impossible. Like unless, like I've seen other, I was an analyst and when associates came in and they didn't have that banking background, I can tell you from, I can tell you from an analyst perspective, it was more frustrating to have that associate looking over you because it's like, Dude, just get out of the way, right?
Kindred.SOul: [00:33:39] Luckily enough, I had enough experience in that right. When you step into an environment, you see people are moving really fast. Yeah, you knew I wasn't trying to just insert myself in the way like, Oh, you got to do it this way? Right? It was more like, Hey, analyst, you're a rock star. And I respect that, right? Can you help me think about like when you're doing this, what? Like what's happening? How are you thinking about it? And really just humble yourself and say,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:04] Do you think that works? Do you think that work, though? Do you feel like, I mean, you didn't get the offer and the group that you wanted? Do you feel like there was a reason for that? Do you feel like it just they felt like, did that hurt your reputation there? What happened there? Do you think in that, you know,
Kindred.SOul: [00:34:18] It may it may have, I think, the firm that I worked at. You know, it's not built for four for a runway to get up to speed, especially at that, at that in that role and in that group and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:30] It was a top group, had a lot of top bank, right? Yeah, it's a top group at a top bank.
Kindred.SOul: [00:34:35] So what they want to drop somebody in, they want that person to be able to run. I needed I needed some warm up laps for and I get it. And my senior mentor told me that and he was still in contact with him today. He's a great, great guy. Yeah, he's done great things since he since he's left the firm. But he told me he was very candid with me, especially towards the end of the internship was like, Look, we're not built to like, you're doing great. We think you can be great, you have a great personality, you have a great story, you're smart. But we need to drop an associate in here that can run at 100 miles an hour and you're not there yet.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:13] And so that's fair. That's fair. Yeah, yeah, that's fair. So did you feel like that that hurt you in the full time recruiting, not having that offer? Like, how did you go back to school without having that offer? Like, did you or you like, Okay, so that's going to hurt me.
Kindred.SOul: [00:35:27] I didn't have the offer in that in that role.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:29] Oh, but you had another offer? Ok, yeah,
Kindred.SOul: [00:35:31] I did have. I did have it. I did leave that summer with an offer which helped a lot, right? Had I not had that offer from that firm, maybe, maybe things turned out a little bit differently. Yeah, but, you know, telling the story, right? And here the story was. I went in to it, to the lion's den, and I was the least equipped from a prior experience perspective to compete. And I didn't. I didn't. I didn't cut it. They gave, they gave out four offers. I was one of seven. They gave out four offers, got it. So I wasn't the only person that didn't get the offer, which is good. I did get an offer from the firm. Yeah, and I, you know, I and I talked to people about this right as I think about what I want my career to look like. If I go into private wealth management, I'm. And knowing that I come from the NFL and people are just going to be like this go dial for dollars. Call all your buddies in the NFL, right, and say, Hey, bring me the money. Is that going to teach me the skills that I wanted to learn? And I, you know, I took another risk and said, Look, I can tell this story about why I didn't get this job right. And hopefully somebody will give me the chance to let me get my foot in the door so I can go compete again. And fortunately enough for me, I got that opportunity. And so the story, the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:50] Story worked, the story. The story worked in the recruiting in the second. So did they did the first bank give you a lot of time to accept that offer? Was it like an exploding like you have to tell us soon? Or was it were they cool about like you?
Kindred.SOul: [00:37:05] Yeah, no. So the way it worked was, you know, finished its summer. Yeah. And you know, as you get, there's a few days off before you go back to school and as you get back on the campus. I was just I reached out to the recruiters that I had been in contact with prior to accepting the offer at the at my summer internship. And just kind of laid it out like, you know, back in, I'm back in the cycle. You know, this is this is the situation. I love to continue the dialogue. Let me know how we got to get back into the pipeline of full time recruits. And if we got to do Super Day thing again, cool, you know, let me know what those things look like. And so we got back into the process.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:46] And do you feel like there were? Do you feel like there were things you could do or you did and your second year of your MBA that kind of made you more ready in when you went back in for a full time?
Kindred.SOul: [00:37:56] Oh, absolutely. I mean, this summer, the summer internship was all the insight I needed to the gaps that I had. And so, you know, there was there was a lot of modeling, right? Like, I never spent any material amount of time in Excel, even in the summer internship that I had, it was very rudimentary. And so, yeah, I'm sorry. The undergrad summer internship that I had, it was very kind of basic. And so, yeah, you know, it's like, how can I get as much modeling experience as I can again, taking all the finance classes that I could, and I just forced myself to try to think about the problems and the discussions that we were having during my summer in high banking.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:41] Do you feel like there was a time like it? Did it click all of a sudden at a certain time? Or did was it a graduate? Like, it was a steady kind of step, step wise, small incremental improvements.
Kindred.SOul: [00:38:50] You know, I think I think once I came out of that summer, I had a good grasp of where I needed to focus, and as I went through that second year, it was definitely starting to click.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:03] Got it. Cool. So you kind of starred in you come in as an associate at another top bank and you're right away. Do you feel like you're drowning again? Like things are moving faster? It's a little slower, but you're still struggling. Tell me a little bit about that.
Kindred.SOul: [00:39:18] Yeah, so it was it was a little it's a little bit of a repeat because there was a different group and a product versus coverage. Got it. So you're diving deep in that product and there was a lot of nuances around it that I had hadn't had a great deal of exposure to. So again, feeling like, Oh crap, I'm drowning out, right? Of course, please stop the ship from sinking.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:42] Tell me about the tell me about the hours like difference of like working, you know, being in the NFL, probably training physically exhausted. Did you feel physically exhausted ever as an as an associate at a top bank? You know, in this group, did you feel like, oh, the hours are just brutal because you were putting in so many long hours at the office? Or was it something where like you were so used to it that it was pretty easy for you?
Kindred.SOul: [00:40:05] It's exhausting. But I mean, it's a different type of exhausting, right? Like the fatigue that you feel when you're in the middle of training camp and you're two days and it's ninety five degrees and you got all these pads on and you're losing 15 pounds of practice. Yeah, you know, that's a different fatigue than I've been up for the last 37 hours, right? And I need. I need. I need to. I need a
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:31] Nap. You're like more delirious, right?
Kindred.SOul: [00:40:34] Yeah, I can't see straight. I don't know if I'm the things that I'm seeing and perceiving in this world are actually like real things. So you're it's a different fatigue. Yeah. But you know, the perseverance and the understanding, you know, you can get through most of these things, at least for a short amount of time, you know, not looking to run thirty six hours.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:00] But was that self? Was that self-imposed? Was that self-imposed? Were you putting that pressure on yourself because you felt like you were a little bit behind when you came in to work those crazy long hours? Like, were you staying extra late to try and get up to speed? Or was it something where it was just that was the nature of the group that you were in?
Kindred.SOul: [00:41:17] I think it was probably a little bit of both. It was a busy time in the market, there was a lot of stuff happening. And in the debt capital markets, as rates go down, everybody gets excited. Yeah, everybody wants to buy something. Everybody wants to reprice something. So there's a ton of activity. And so that was a part of it. Just the sheer volume. But then also, you know, I'm a competitive person and I want to be respected and viewed in that kind of top, top quartile of folks as my peers. And so that that also makes me want to spend a little extra time, right? You know, even if it's another 30 minutes at the end of the day trying to just review something that you think you can do better or figuring out. Or even so when I got to the point where I really think I made a step change once I got full time was as I started journaling stuff down, like jotting notes down for myself as opposed to, you know, just things that I needed to to do in any particular staffing that I
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:21] Had instead of a to do list. Meaning you started journaling what like your thoughts or things that you were confused about or what?
Kindred.SOul: [00:42:28] I started journaling the things that I was doing good and the things that I was doing bad got it because I wasn't sure where I stood. I was nervous around, you know, am I am, I am. I? Am I up to snuff? Am I going to get fired? What's the feedback going to be and in versus coming from an environment like athletics where you're reviewing films, you've got a coach that's looking at every, every snap that you take and you can go back and review the film that there was no there's no mechanism for that sort of feedback for me, right? And so I was trying to recreate that level of feedback for myself. And so as I sat down with an M.D., talked about a pitch and marking it up and I got all these comments and things that I was jotting in my journal for myself were this this guy doesn't like this, or when you're when you're presenting this, make sure you're thinking about all these other things. And that kind of repository for me was incredibly helpful as I started to try to recognize the areas that I can improve on really quickly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:35] Do you mind sharing some of those, like, was it like, OK, this guy really likes you better not misaligned stuff here or like the way you phrase things here? Was it like that detailed?
Kindred.SOul: [00:43:44] Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Because every banker is different, right? Every banker has a different preference. Some guys are incredibly detail oriented around the aesthetics of the page. Right? Some are. Some are pretty lax. And don't get all hung up on that stuff. But it's all important, right? And they all feed into what the perception of you is on that on your platform, right? So it's incumbent upon you to take the feedback they're giving you, either whether it's direct or indirect. And that was what I was trying to solve for.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:18] So you were doing this kind of self review on a daily basis that helped you kind of improve it? Tell me about your first real review. Like formal review. Did it? Did it go well? Did it go poorly? Did you feel like, Oh, was it an oh shit moment or was it OK, I'm going to be OK?
Kindred.SOul: [00:44:34] You know, so in the first mid-year review, it was kind of an oh shit. And that was this was the midyear review was before I started journaling this way. Yup. And it was very shortly after that I started to do the journaling because, you know, the feedback was, you know, you've got to increase your attention to detail. You need to spend more time with this attribute or documentation or whatever. And you know, as we move from that mid-year to my final, the final review for the first year, you know, I probably dig it up, but they literally mentioned how quickly I closed the gap after that, after that feedback. And so they were they were raving about it. You know, you're very coachable. You're listening to what we're saying. That's great correcting the mistakes that that you were making previously, and you're creative in ways that some of your peers are not. So keep doing that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:31] Man, it's inspirational given me, you're giving me goosebumps. I don't think anyone talking about investment banking can give me goose bumps, but I know that's great, man. That's so cool. So, so you're kind of turning it around. That second review is much more positive there. Like just keep going, right? And so you eventually get you eventually get promoted because you're doing such a good job and you've been now a VP for a while. Is this something where you feel like you can make a career out of this? Is it something where you feel like you're gifted at this now you once you now that you have the reps?
Kindred.SOul: [00:46:03] Yeah, no, I mean, it's definitely something I could see myself in a career, and the advisory function is definitely something that that that's very interesting. You know, you get a chance to sit down with really sharp people and discuss, especially once you start moving up and get beyond analyst, associate and VP, you're just sitting down to have conversations with people about interesting problems. Yeah. And I'll never forget the moment that I got brought to a dinner. It was, it was kind of told to us as this is a page we pulled together this deck and the guy was like, We're actually not pitching, we're just going to go to dinner and talk to him. I just needed that information. So we went and sat down and literally the guy was the CFO of an investment grade gaming client, and we literally just sat down and talked about six or seven different deals and different properties and different challenges that he was facing. And that was the moment was like, oh, wow, once you cut your teeth enough and you get to the point where you're building these relationships and you know the space, you're literally just brainstorming with these people and then you go out and you're trying to execute on what you guys came up with. That's really cool. That's an interesting and interesting function. You know, you can make a good make a good living. You can you can learn a lot and put yourself in the position where if you get the entrepreneurial bug or you get an opportunity and you want to go, step out and try something new, you're very well equipped to go do that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:37] Do you feel like you'll be good in that? That transition from associate to VP to MD is very much a kind of switches from execution a little bit more to sales. Do you feel like? I think just talking to you, I think you'd be naturally very good at sales. Do you feel like you? You're going to be able to make that transition well? Or do you feel like there's a little bit of a how do I say like, it's a little bit of a tough transition for somebody, you know, you've been focused on execution now for, for what, six years or so? It's hard to,
Kindred.SOul: [00:48:05] I think, at every step, one thing that I've tried to be mindful of is what are the things that the person in the level above me are struggling with? And as an associate, it was what's the thing that the VP's are stressed about as a VP is what the thing that the DEA or the M.D. is stressed about and what are the challenges that they face in those roles? And so I've tried to start to train my mind and start, you know, addressing some of those things, you know, traveling as much as they travel and trying to keep all of the deals and all the things straight in their mind as they go out and have these conversations with CEOs and CFOs.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:46] And are they expecting you to start? Are they expecting you to start build those relationships? Do they do they want you to start doing that soon?
Kindred.SOul: [00:48:53] Yeah, yeah. You've given me the opportunity to go out and start doing that. So I've got a couple of different sectors that I've got some coverage in now and great in addition to my execution work that I'm doing, I'm out, I'm out trying to trying to originate stuff on my own. So it's fun to kind of get that opportunity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:13] That's great, man. So I don't want to keep it too much longer. It's been a really fun, interesting conversation I'd before we call it. It'd be great if you could just. Do you have any advice you would give to your younger self? Kind of looking back, you know, maybe whether it's in high school or college when you were in the NFL? Anything specifically, you would have done differently or told you told yourself.
Kindred.SOul: [00:49:38] Who? I think. I think if I was to tell my younger self anything, it would be make sure you, you do a really good job of networking outside of the firm that you're at. And just to continue to take the toll of what your stock is worth. Your personal stock is worth in the marketplace. And you know, I've looked at some other opportunities, but I've never really dove full in and went through the full process of trying to see what other, what other opportunities I could have run down if I wanted to. You know, and in that in that light, I think, you know, I may have not shortchanged myself because I've had a great experience. I've got a great journey and a great path ahead. So I'm not. I'm not. I'm not disappointed in that regard. But if it's if I could tell my if I was telling my younger self how to maximize going forward, that would be that would be something that I would definitely be. Keep top of mind is make sure you're at least once a week having some coffee or trying to grab a bite to eat with some folks in your industry from a firm that's outside of your own.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:07] Yeah, I think that's great advice just because you can get so kind of you can you can put your head down in four years, not pick your head up. Only be surrounded by the people in your firm and not really get a true perspective of where you sit and even every couple of years kind of going out, even if you're not looking to change jobs, just seeing what's out there. Because, like you said, you know, you don't know where things are change. Maybe there's a huge shortage of associates or VP's in this other place, and they it'd be it'd be a really big jump for you, but it would also be a good place. So I mean, the other thing to say is if you're in a good seat and you're getting good mentorship and you're progressing well, there's nothing wrong with sticking, sticking it out with the firm and riding it all the way up. So anyways, man, this has been a real fun conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street, Oasis, if you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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