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WSO Podcast | E118: High School Dropout to Top Masters in London - Asset Management

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In this episode, SkininTheGame16 shares his non-traditional path to a top asset manager in London. From dropping out of high school to traveling abroad to breaking into a top Masters program in London, hear how he navigated some unforgiving circumstances growing up in Brussels.

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WSO Podcast (Episode 118) Transcript:

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it real quick announcement I wanted to make before today's episode. We are super excited because we just released six new financial modeling training courses on Wall Street Oasis. You can check it out on the home page Wall Street Oasis or Wall Street Oasis courses. We're super excited because it includes Excel modeling, valuation modeling, DCF elbow M&A, financial statement modeling basically anything you will need to master financial modeling and hit the ground running day one. Definitely don't wait to check it out because there is an early access discount going on right now, and that's it. Enjoy the episode

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:02] In this episode. SkininTheGame16 shares his non-traditional path to a top asset manager in London from dropping out of high school to traveling abroad to breaking into a top master's program in London. Hear how he navigated some unforgiving circumstances. Growing up in Brussels, enjoy. Right, skin in the game, 16, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.

SkininTheGame16: [00:01:32] Thank you for having me, Patrick.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:33] So it would be awesome if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.

SkininTheGame16: [00:01:38] Cool. Sure, so. So I basically dropped out of high school in my last year, sort of had a bit of trouble with school and at home and stuff and had trouble finishing. So I basically had to leave school and find myself in a situation sort of know how no high school degree seeing my friends going off to university.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:00] And this was in London.

SkininTheGame16: [00:02:02] This is still in Belgium. Actually, this is in Belgium, Brussels. So, yeah, so I just, you know, didn't really know what to do. So I basically started working a little bit. I went traveling for some time in South America, so I had an amazing time there, you know, learning Spanish. That's an amazing people. Then came back and sort of had to start working because I sort of basically owed my parents a bit of money for the travelling, et cetera. Yeah. So then I started working for this sort of real estate company, small sort of family office real estate company in Brussels called Indie Management. So they basically they basically rented and managed a series like 40 50 residential flats on behalf of on behalf of a small group of sort of owners investors. I did that for two years and sort of realized in the meantime, well, if I don't have a degree, you know, probably I'm not really going to continue progressing, etc. So in the meantime, sort of not having much confidence in studying, I sort of signed up to this distance university program in the UK called the Open University, and I basically did my full undergraduate degree with them whilst sort of working full time. And then, yeah, so I did pretty well and wanted to try and move into finance in London.

SkininTheGame16: [00:03:24] And the best way for me to do that was try to get into grad school in London and then, you know, try and get my get my bearings from there. So I did that. I managed to get into target school in the UK after, you know, a couple of really sort of tough years balancing work and studying. And yeah, from there I did sort of the grad school there economics and then joined a sort of medium sized US asset manager. So I joined this sort of like an associate there for two years and rotated across different parts of the business. So anything from, you know, I did marketing sort of finance sales, parts of operations and then finally investment management, which I sort of managed to meet a few people that worked for quite a few people there. And they sort of guided me towards what I sort of wanted to do in the long run, which is real estate and sort of my old company didn't you didn't really didn't really do any sort of alternative assets in real estate. So, so it sort of made sense for me to move, and they sort of helped me prepare for interviews.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:36] The company you were at helped you prepare.

SkininTheGame16: [00:04:38] No. Yeah. Well, the company I was at. So basically just a few people who just basically like mentored me in a way. And then, you know, I applied, I applied, I applied to quite a few firms and it was quite a lot of rejections. And you know, it was difficult. But I finally did make it. And so now I've been working as a fund manager system on the global real estate securities desk, some of the large global asset manager. And yeah, so I've been in them for two years now and it's just been going pretty well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:14] So it's a really interesting story because I think you probably had a lot of a lot more of a winding road than a lot of the guests I've had on here. I don't know if we've had any guests that that actually took a year off or dropped out of high school. So to tell me a little bit about just let's go back there, like what was specifically what was going on through as much as you can share your comfortable sharing. What was going on such that you had to just stop high school, you're just flunking out because there's so many distractions or what was going on?

SkininTheGame16: [00:05:43] Yeah. Well, I mean, the sort of towards the end of high school, I guess my parents sort of broke up. So that was kind of difficult. And then I guess sort of I lost connection of studying and then from that sort of started not caring as much and, you know, hanging out with maybe not the most best influences, and it's just a bit of a slippery slope. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:08] And so did you did you end up just dropping out because you want who are you living with your mom or your dad or?

SkininTheGame16: [00:06:13] Yeah, I was living. I was living with my while still both my mum and my dad at the time. But then basically, yeah, but you guys just had to drop out, had to leave the school.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:23] Did you see a coming their break up or was it a complete shock?

SkininTheGame16: [00:06:26] It was. It was a bit of it was a bit of a shock, to be honest. And it's, I guess, just at that age. And not necessarily. I mean, it's always difficult, but you might not have the right tools to. Be able to sort of see beyond it, and, you know, you count on your parents quite a lot, so

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:43] Yeah, and you're a little bit like you're still young, you're still a little immature, probably as a guy, we mature later, right? So.

SkininTheGame16: [00:06:49] Yeah, yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:51] So tell me about like, how you what made you think I want to go travel to South America? And where did you go and why?

SkininTheGame16: [00:06:58] Yeah. So basically so I realized. So I basically quit school and was at home a lot, and I had way too much free time. And my mom just was like, Well, if you're not going to be at school, you need to do something. And she was like, Well, why don't you go traveling for a bit? I was like, Well, not really. You know, I'd rather just stay here and my friends will live here. And she kind of pushed me to go traveling, and it was quite random. So I just basically literally looked at the look at the map of the world and was like, Well, you know, South America seems far seems cool. People speak Spanish there. And yeah, it was. It was really it was. It was kind of random, but it worked out really well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:41] It sounds a little bit like how I decided to go to Buenos Aires after my MBA. I was like, Where can I go to improve my Spanish and where I can travel from a lot of places? And I chose Buenos Aires as

SkininTheGame16: [00:07:52] My home base.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:54] So where were you in South America again?

SkininTheGame16: [00:07:57] Yeah. So I was mainly in mainland Peru and Colombia.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:00] So my mother's in Colombia. I don't know if you do, really? Yes. Oh no. It's from Cali. Colombia on the coast.

SkininTheGame16: [00:08:07] Oh, really beautiful. I've been there. Really, really nice.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:11] Yeah, they're really well known for salsa. So, yeah, so cool. Ok, so you're there for how long?

SkininTheGame16: [00:08:18] So I was there for like six months.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:21] So your mom was funding all of this?

SkininTheGame16: [00:08:24] Well, no, I like she. She helped me. She helped me fund it. And my grandparents are actually really, like, really helpful and supportive. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:33] So you just started to be a good growing, growing kind of time for you. What does it end up like? Just a party for you? Or did you did you feel like you gained any maturity throughout the process?

SkininTheGame16: [00:08:43] It was a lot of fun, but I do think I do think I actually learned from it as a sort of, you know, as a person, maybe because I went there on my own. So you have to figure out who you are and you want and stuff. I think maybe the more resilient, a bit more mature to.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:02] Yeah, I think traveling can do that right. When you're forced to figure things out on your own and where are you going to live and all that good stuff. So tell me a little bit about kind of why you decided to come back when you came back and then what was kind of the conversation you had with your mom or your dad at that point?

SkininTheGame16: [00:09:20] Yeah. So I basically I came I came back home as it was. It was, you know, I'd been six months and, you know, I'd run out of money and also just had been time. And I just I came home, you know, wanted to get started working, which is all great. But then I quite quickly realized, I guess, that, you know, it's cool to be earning money when your friends are studying. But you know, what's this? What's the future? And sort of where is this going to take me?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:51] And you were about 18 at this time or 19 or something like that?

SkininTheGame16: [00:09:54] Yeah, 19 going on 20, I think it was like, yes, about 19, 20.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:00] And what's it like in Brussels? Like, what's where you live? Like, I don't know anything about the city.

SkininTheGame16: [00:10:05] So yeah, so Brussels is, um, it's like a medium sized European city. So I mean, I just it's like a bar. It's a northern European city like

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:17] Barcelona, Barcelona.

SkininTheGame16: [00:10:19] Yeah, but it's much the weather's much. There's no way. It's nice. It's not the beach, but it's a nice. It's a nice place. It's pretty international too.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:27] Yeah. So yeah, so what gave you the idea of so you were working for, I think you said, a real estate firm, right, for a couple of years when you got back. And yeah, that's correct. Do you mind sharing what you're getting paid? I assume it was very low because you didn't even have a high school.

SkininTheGame16: [00:10:40] Exactly. Yeah. So it was oh, I think it was like literally in euros back around just under like 30 K, it was like twenty six, twenty seven or something.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:51] Twenty seven thousand euros. Yeah, a year. That's not that bad.

SkininTheGame16: [00:10:56] That wasn't that wasn't that bad, I guess, for

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:58] The city, if you're living the city, it's pretty low. But yeah, yeah. But OK, so you're  doing this and then kind of studying at nights and that's in this kind of online university. Is that something that's more common in the U.S.? Did you feel like, Hey, if I get this degree from this online university because I know there's a lot of for profit universities here in the U.S. and it's a big problem because a lot of kids take on debt thinking, if I go do this university degree, if I get my bachelor's, I'm setting to be able to find a job when the reality is very different from that. And a lot of these for profit universities take advantage of kids. Yeah, charge a lot of money to say, Hey, we're accredited, we have a bachelor's, but they're barely. It is, and the quality of education isn't great. So tell me how you thought about that or if you didn't think about it at all, is fine too.

SkininTheGame16: [00:11:43] Yeah. So I mean, I guess I have not finished high school and sort of like being out of studying for a bit. I sort of sort of lacked a bit of confidence to go back to full time studying. And, you know, sort of doing it the traditional way. And then this sort of idea came up through my mom and I was like, Is this is this a good idea? Is this, you know, what's this? What's this going to get me or whatever? And but in the end, it was, you know, it was in the UK, like in Europe, at least it's it is still pretty accredited if you pretty well. Well, yeah, I mean, if you do well, you kind of like, OK, he's done really well regardless, and he's been studying at home. And I guess people value that. But I mean, I mean, I think if I had the choice, I would have. I mean, I would definitely just go the traditional route.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:35] Looking back, do you wish you kind of stayed through and finished high school? Yeah, yeah.

SkininTheGame16: [00:12:40] And you miss out. Also on the real life student experience, right? It's sort of like a pretty yeah,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:46] Which is some of the best years of your life, man.

SkininTheGame16: [00:12:48] Know exactly

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:50] That. You want them back? Yeah, I'm sure you do. So you're OK. So you're but you finish. It takes you a few years and you you get your degree in what, two years that that fast online while you're oh,

SkininTheGame16: [00:13:01] No, no, no, no, no, it wasn't where you thought it was. So basically, I was I didn't work in the whole time. Yeah, I'm studying, but I wrote most of the time, but it took no the degree. In total, it was like four years.

Patrick (CEO of WSO:: [00:13:12] So during that time of the online studying and working part time? Yeah, you said you kind of were thinking finance. So tell me a little bit about like why like, why were you interested in now? Is it just because like you saw a lot of fun movies like Wall Street kind of back then or Boiler Room and like that? Hey, this would be a fun way to maybe this is a way to be lucrative, not dependent on my parents anymore. What was the thought process?

SkininTheGame16: [00:13:36] Sure. So it was it was. It was a bit of that, but it was also so my I have an uncle who, you know, quite randomly sort of like set up. He set up a couple of like 20 years ago, a hedge fund. And he I mean that we were super, super close. But I sort of we've gone on holiday. We started talking and I liked economics and I was like, Oh, so how does this work? And, you know, understanding, I guess the importance of the financial services within an economy. And I kind of liked it and I was like, OK, I can maybe I like to try and become part of this and then it's, you know, then

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:16] Isn't it funny how those little conversations, whether it's like families or friends or friends like, completely changed your entire life trajectory?

SkininTheGame16: [00:14:23] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Then you know you from one things. Then you started reading up stuff and then, you know, reading the FFT from time to time, then whatever it was, and you just start reading more and more, then I just kind of got really interested. Got it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:39] And so when you were as you're approaching graduation from this online university? Yeah. Was your thought process, what was your thought process in terms of job prospects versus like, OK, I'm going to have to get a master's?

SkininTheGame16: [00:14:51] Yeah, well, yeah. Well, it's a bit like I. So the thing so basically, I wanted to try and get a job in London and finance straight out of straight out of school. The online undergraduate. But it was it was proving pretty difficult for two reasons. First being, I sort of got interested in the finance thing a little bit late to be able to like do internships and stuff. And you know, and you know, London, like, you know, like New York, like, you know, like most big global financial centres, is it extremely competitive? And I didn't have that. And I also didn't really have the necessarily the right credential university from a university perspective, of course. So I sort of tried that, but it was really hard. And also being in Brussels is kind of it's hard to just, you know, you can't I can't keep on travelling to try and get interviews, to go through interviews and stuff. So, yeah, so grad school was like, I was like, Well, this could be the way in. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:52] And so how did you prepare kind of your take to it? You ended up getting into a top school in in London, but tell me about like how you even prepared or how you wrote those essays to get in there. Yeah. So that's competitive. That's competitive too, right? Because people take it, you know?

SkininTheGame16: [00:16:13] Yeah. So there was. So basically what I what I started doing in the year before I started reaching out to, I started reaching out to alumni. I started reaching out to students that studied at university and also tried to. So basically, when you know, when alumni sort of gave me a call or whatever, I have some bit of time in them. I sort of try to explain my, my motivation, my narrative and especially, I guess, where I'm coming from. And they sort of helped me, I guess, sort of maybe position my story and also better define kind of what I want from university and sort of like what I'm trying to get out of it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:53] Isn't that so key kind of making sure you had a consistent theme throughout your application like you almost want to brand yourself, right? I always tell people who are applying to business school, like if you're a kid from finance investment banker or private equity or whatever you, you want to be outside of that crowd, you want to somehow bring yourself differently from everybody else, whether that's for me, it was education technology kind of having having built or started Wall Street. So it's really, I think, was an advantage for me because I could point to that and talk about how education technology, I think, was changing the landscapes, and that's how I branded myself to get into Wharton. I feel like if you have something you can lean on or there's stuff in your extracurricular, you could point to, I assume so. Yeah, yeah. What were those? Were the themes you'd be willing to share with the.

SkininTheGame16: [00:17:40] Yeah. So I guess I mean, the main one is that it's probably pretty obvious is just the fact that, you know, my story and the fact that I sort of had to quit high school and sort of, you know, take a couple of back doors to get in the

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:56] Underdog in the end. Yeah, yeah, OK. People love an underdog. That's great. This is smart.

SkininTheGame16: [00:18:03] So I mean, that was that was the sort of the sort of the angle I came from. But I also, you know, I was just, I guess, having lived in Brussels, being in an international environment, having traveled on my own a bit before and stuff like that and just being able, I just played a lot on the on the on the narrative that, you know, I've done lots of different things, but I like to bring them all together to be able to do this thing. I love it. Yeah, so

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:34] So were you. Did you think you were going to get in? Did you apply to some a safety school or what was the thought? What happened when you got that letter?

SkininTheGame16: [00:18:40] I'm going to be honest, I was I was a little bit bold. I think I played to two schools in London, in London, actually and got into both. But I didn't. I really, I was. It was. I was like, you know this, this isn't going to happen. You know, this is this is a distant universe like, but I'll give it a go. I'll give it a go. And then then it. Just when I got the letter, I was like, Oh, wow!

Patrick (CEO of WSO):: [00:19:02] And then like, I'm going, I'm actually going, Yeah, exactly. Tell me about ADE. Were you able to get any financial aid or you didn't need it like your mom was already helping you with stuff because you was your dad in the picture still helping?

SkininTheGame16: [00:19:15] My dad wasn't really. Unfortunately, my mum was. And the other thing is, to be honest, I actually managed to say, I mean, I'm earning was earning way less than now, but I actually managed to save quite a bit because Brussels is kind of cheaper than London. I was studying and I basically had no free time, so I wasn't spending much money. But yeah, I got my mum was really helpful to go and yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:38] So you end up going to school, you're super excited, I assume, you know, going and then tell me this programme. It's a. To your program, correct? It's actually one year, it's one year. Ok, so it's a one year because it's a master's, it's not like the equivalent of like the MBA. It's a no master's kind of with economic bent to it. Or we'll call it. Yeah, and tell me about like what your research was. You're applying to that specific program. Tell me about did you do a lot of research beforehand to see what people were getting placed into out of that role right at that school?

SkininTheGame16: [00:20:10] Yeah, yeah. So it's a pretty it's a pretty notable school in London and I mean in in the U.K. and in the world, actually. So it's basically a lot of kids. I think like for most schools, I think you a good six, seven, 70 percent or so probably want to try and get into investment banking. Then I think there's then for the finance, right? And then I guess there's the rest kind of want to do asset management or other stuff. And so I I kind of yes, investment banking is like this, like really hard, obviously, because also the other thing is a lot of the kids that were at the school who are an undergraduate, already done internships and whatever, and the competition is just that big that it's just it's going to be pretty tough. And then even asset management actually was pretty difficult because like for most, you know, big banks and stuff, the big asset managers, you know, the blackrock's the vanguard of the world, they'll have, you know, pretty structured recruiting. So they'll do that in September, October. And then like if you kind of miss that boat while you're like, What do I do next?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:20] So it's fast, it happens fast, like you get on campus and you're recruiting right away. Basically, it's crazy.

SkininTheGame16: [00:21:26] It's crazy. I mean, they do like these. These companies have like dinners. Yeah, like in August already I was already even started. So. So I did that and then spend the rest of the year just with another friend of like another friend of mine who was not in a similar situation. But, you know, we had some commonalities and we just, you know, really we like we went to events, we went to, you know, company events, we reached out to people on LinkedIn. We applied to so many jobs.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:54] It you start getting some interviews on campus or whatnot.

SkininTheGame16: [00:21:59] I got I got a few. Then I got a few. Then I had an assistant to an assessment centre, but unfortunately didn't get that because the

Patrick (CEO of WSO):: [00:22:08] Assessment centre, what were they testing, the numerical reasoning skills and so on.

SkininTheGame16: [00:22:12] Numerical, yeah. Numerical reasoning, situational judgement, technicals. And also like these, I guess, yeah, sort of situations day in the life type of games where everyone's just like trying to cut each other like everyone, just like out for themselves. So, so I did that. But then I finally, yeah. So towards the end of the year, I managed to land two offers, so one in asset management company and then the other one in sort of like. So it's big for actually. So I got an offer for four role there and I was for me. I just kind of. I certain that the company, the management company, seemed to just benefit what I kind of wanted to do

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:56] And what was that like more on the trading side, more on the market side,

SkininTheGame16: [00:22:59] One the market side.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:00] What was the big four offer in like, what group do you remember?

SkininTheGame16: [00:23:04] Oh, yeah, yeah. So it was actually it was ordered. Actually, it was ordered.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:06] Ok. So you didn't really want to go the accounting route or the.

SkininTheGame16: [00:23:09] That's yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, it's I mean, sometimes I'm like, Well, you know, that could have been that could have been another route, you know, but I kind of prefer the asset management route.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:22] And why was that? What was your thought process like personnel? It was because your personality was it because you're that uncle? I think you said your uncle told you about hedge funds and that sounded appealing. Yeah.

SkininTheGame16: [00:23:32] Yeah. I think I think I had a slight incline towards, I guess the more some markets I sort of markets as opposed to, I guess, corporate finance, accounting and even, I guess, you know, more the banking side.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:47] So yeah, so tell me a little bit about that because you were there for two years, correct? When you came out of school and tell me about the progression, it sounded like a rotational program when you're going over it earlier. Yeah. And so that's kind of awesome because you didn't really have those internships right to lean on from before you didn't have like. Exactly, exactly. So it sounds like the perfect fit for you. So tell me about like your rotation through each kind of group and what you liked or didn't like or what was surprising to you kind of coming out of school?

SkininTheGame16: [00:24:17] Yeah, so, I rotate to each group was like to the first group was like six months, but the rest of like three months, which goes really, really quickly. Yeah. So you basically you land in the team and you know, you have a sort of manager or sort of, you know, associate or manager who's kind of, you know, gives you the work and trains you. And it's pretty intense, but you because you don't really get it three months is not really there's nowhere near enough to even get a get a sort of minimal understanding of that part of the business, what you really do get. And I think more specifically, I mean, I say this for us, IT management was that's obviously what it refers to. You do get a really good understanding of the business of the business in its entirety. So, you know, what do what do what would the sales do? And you know, who do they go inside to who our clients are the institutional?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:11] Is that the marketing side you were mentioning before when you said marketing, do you mean like the sales side? Like talking to clients and selling them products?

SkininTheGame16: [00:25:17] Yeah, exactly. See, so then yeah, then you learn, you know, you learn to learn a bit more about the geography of the clients, the type of clients, the type of products they're interested in. And then then I moved on to obviously also like client service, which is a little bit more sort of, you know, on the relationship management side where you're working with your current clients and helping them move, you know, with market queries or whatever in terms of their. So that's then, you know, obviously then moved on to the investment management side, which is actually what I wanted to do. And there's

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:51] The management side meaning like you were actually structuring products or you were actually trading,

SkininTheGame16: [00:25:57] You know, the actual sort of I guess the portfolio management guys

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:02] Are like helping analyze different portfolios and like, can you give me an example, like what you do one day?

SkininTheGame16: [00:26:08] Exactly. Yeah. So actually, that company is pretty interesting in the sense that they there was pretty much based on a fund of fund model. So it's they call it manager research. So what you would do is so the guy sort of work for whatever he'd give me, maybe a list of a list of managers which you can, you know, Bloomberg or whatever program you're using, you know, go and check up their track record mathematics, their investment thesis, and just be able to essentially try and figure out, you know, which managers are better or not and for what reasons. So I guess from sort of a free month sort of internship, are you able

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:51] To see returns in like

SkininTheGame16: [00:26:53] In? Well, you can see the things you can see. You can have you can have an idea of track record because you would actually we would pick them, we would pick the managers in which we invest, the clients in which the company would invest the client's funds.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:07] Yeah, no. Yeah, you're the fund of funds. So I understand you're like, analyze the managers. But when like they give you that list of names to go research and Bloomberg, like you can get the thematics of like where they're investing, what industries, what their style is. But then were you able to like before, I guess maybe later down the line when you're doing diligence, you would get return data.

SkininTheGame16: [00:27:24] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, that would obviously be a yeah, the point that they're probably interested in actually having a meeting with them. Got it. Ok. But yeah, so that was that was pretty interesting.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:35] Cool. So like, you're doing that. You're there for almost two years. Do you mind mentioning pay at all, like in terms of what you're now coming out of top school with the master's?

SkininTheGame16: [00:27:46] Yeah. So that was so I mean, the bracket was like 30 30 to 40 pounds in. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:55] And then was there any bonus associated with it?

SkininTheGame16: [00:27:58] Yeah. So it's like, I mean, asset management, I think five k. Yeah, the 10 to 30 percent, the 30 percent is more like, I guess, you know, investment investments that investment front office.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:13] Got it. So would you say this is a program that was like more middle office back office support or like this rotation program? And how common are those kind of coming out of

SkininTheGame16: [00:28:22] These types of? Yeah, I would say it is a little bit more because at least in the U.K., a big part of that business is geared towards that. So there was the hybrid investment team and, you know, both fixed income and equities. But that's not necessarily their brand strength. So I think that's partly

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:45] Where you are looking to kind of try to transition into that front office.

SkininTheGame16: [00:28:49] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, that's I mean, I obviously didn't mention it, but that's kind of what I wanted to do since the beginning, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:55] Yeah, but it makes sense. I mean, yeah, for anyone with ambition, you'd think you'd want to be making the decisions and actual if you love the market's right to be doing that. So OK, so is that what prompted kind of the next move after the year? And like, when did you start looking, where you're networking this whole time? How is your kind of whole process of making that next? Yourself.

SkininTheGame16: [00:29:18] Yeah, so I started probably a year in, so I had when I had a year to spare. And the other reason for that is that you sort of you leave the program, whatever happens after two years. So I didn't want to be in a situation where, you know, even if I was going to stay, if I didn't want to end up in a role where, you know, I didn't want to be. And I just really wanted to make sure that I sort of prepared as much as possible.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:44] So how do you when do they tell you like if you have if you're allowed to stay past the two years, is that pretty common?

SkininTheGame16: [00:29:50] So I mean, I think that you work towards it in the last six months, and that's usually in conjunction with them trying to find your role internally. Got it. Obviously, I was always looking outside, so I didn't tell them, but I started looking around a year before.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:06] Yeah, a year in. Would you recommend keeping that quiet for the people who are in a similar boat?

SkininTheGame16: [00:30:12] I would. I would. I would, because I know the reason for that is just, you know, I wasn't sure, you know, if, if, if a role it opened in the last six months in the team where I happened, you know, and they quite liked me or whatever, then I would have taken it and I probably would have burned a bridge had I said, Oh, I'm going to leave guys and then be like, Yeah,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:32] Ok, so that's good advice. So you're you started looking like a year before, which I think is smart. Like, give yourself a long runway to potentially see as many opportunities get better at interviewing again, get into that mindset, right? And so tell me how that all went. Was it like mostly just informal info chats? I know in London at the networking is a little bit different in like the formal channels of recruiting a little more strict in terms of having to follow those. Tell me a little bit about kind of that whole process for you and how it worked.

SkininTheGame16: [00:31:01] Yeah, so I basically, I guess one of the best, I mean, the primary way was just basically reaching out to reaching out to recruiters. So I spoke to quite a few recruiters over that time. Some of them were good. Some of them weren't so good. But I mean, one thing I will kind of do want to mention is that recruiters in my experience aren't always out in your best interest. And there's been so you know, I luckily have, you know, people who sort of knew what I wanted to do and were supportive, and I sort of took enough time in advance to be able to prepare. But all of the time, you know, sometimes they're trying, you know, they try and sell stuff to you, you know? Yeah, this is, you know, this is a great role. And you know, I play someone who last year who you know now, now, now moved into front office. This is like a good stepping stone. And you're like, Well, I don't think so. So I yes, I did that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:04] How do you how do you kind of. How do you kind of know the difference, because a lot of younger kids may fall for that? How do you just don't take anything? Recruiter says take it with a large grain of salt. Is that just the message because they're just trying to get the placement and move on, right?

SkininTheGame16: [00:32:20] Yeah, yeah, they do, and I think it's even more so if you're trying to guess, I guess, move front office and move up because they see your profile, they know that they can place other people, you know, that may be a better fitted for the role. So there's there isn't much incentive for them to actually pass you past you. And, you know, so that this so I guess that system, I think my general I mean, I think recruiters actually, you know, and I've met quite a few really, really helpful, useful ones and really nice ones. So, you know, nothing against recruiters, but I think using resources and looking online and even stuff even like so to be honest, just talking about like, Hey, you know, I'd like to move into this area, what do you guys think? And I think being able to use sort of different sources of reference and knowing that beforehand is really helpful.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:12] Yeah, it gives you a little bit of a frame of different paths. You could take different kind of lateral moves you can make that potentially gets you get you closer to your ankle. Right? So how did you how did you figure that out? So you talked to some helpful recruiters that did give you maybe some good guidance. So I'm trying to push you into roles that may or may not have been a good place for you. How did it all evolve eventually? How did you end up finding your next role? And then let's talk a little bit about that.

SkininTheGame16: [00:33:34] Yeah, definitely. So I mean, I sort of wanted to move into alternative assets, so I wanted to particularly real assets or real estate and infrastructure, especially real estate, because that's kind of where I've done a bit of work beforehand and it sort of made, you know, made sense. And so I sort of focused on that. So rolls didn't always come, you know, sometimes it was, you know, I'd have to work a few weeks, but I sort of made sure that I kind of understood the fundamentals as much as I could try to, you know, be able to sort of, you know, general market news, be able to sort of talk about the, you know, the economics of that particular asset class and also just sort of, you know, really start to speak to as many people within that asset class and industry as possible just to familiarize myself and maybe, you know, get insights into how to prepare and perhaps what modeling or excel skills could be useful and stuff like that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:33] And you were still kind of interviewing mostly with asset managers. Is that correct? Yeah. So you were thinking of joining kind of an asset manager, but more like with a focus on real estate?

SkininTheGame16: [00:34:43] That's correct.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:43] Ok, so tell me how you kind of went about that. I mean, obviously, LinkedIn, maybe it was helpful, but how else did you? And then what? Tell me how you kind of eventually got this offer?

SkininTheGame16: [00:34:53] Yeah. So I was sort of interviewing, I think, one or two places at the same time. I really like this one because it was it's a, you know, it's a really big asset manager that you know, they from, you know, from what I'd sort of done in research, you know, they had a pretty decent team, you know, repeatable team. And so I went for an interview there, met like two analysts, had an Excel test. And then after that, you know, after the first interview, I was like, OK, I really, you know, I like I like them a lot. I can kind of see myself here, and I sort of I really just sort of did everything I could in terms of research and just even talking to people in my Old Firm and my uncle in terms. Even so, the soft skills, because I think that's something which I, you know, you can sort of forget sometimes or I can, you know, I forgot, I think

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:53] Modeling, modeling, excel, excel and then you have you forget you have to make a connection with the interviewer?

SkininTheGame16: [00:35:58] Exactly, exactly. And I think as my uncle helped me with that a bit, and he and I think I think that was actually really important and really helpful. The end of the day, you know, you're sitting down to a team and you know, they need to like you.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:11] And so this this role, would you still like you, be more specific about what you're doing and should you consider it front office? Would you consider it like still middle office? You're building towards that still or tell me a little bit about that?

SkininTheGame16: [00:36:24] Yeah. So some as a fund manager assistant, we've been sort of sort of global real estate securities desk, a large asset manager. So I mostly work in the investment team. I would I would, I wouldn't call it purely front office because the the reason being is that then the day I'm not making any investment decisions, as per say, and then that's management. I guess so the fund managers, you know, they're the ones that call the shots. Then equity analyst Obviously, they're the guys who, you know, do research on their own companies, geographies, et cetera, underwrite and then make recommendations. And I sort of sit in between both.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:08] But is this a common role, the fund manager assistant role special to certain fund certain asset managers?

SkininTheGame16: [00:37:16] I'm going. I think it's actually specific to certain asset managers, I don't think. I looked around and I've

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:21] Seen because I haven't heard, yeah, I haven't heard it, so it's interesting you're sitting kind of in between the equity analysts recommendations and the fund managers to kind of what's your role like day to day kind of, what do you do?

SkininTheGame16: [00:37:31] Yeah, yeah. So for example, my responsibility, so I get in the morning, you know, turn on, turn on a Bloomberg or whatever. And one of the first things I'll do and share with to the portfolio managers and team is obviously sort of the cash positions because we trade in the fund trades intraday and especially recently, it's been, you know, it's been very volatile. So I'll, you know, I'll do that in the morning, send that out. We have like a really sort of big proprietary global investment framework model, which is my responsibility to update daily, to check to because we update the pricing of all the companies within our universe that gets uploaded into that at the same time. You know, there's a couple of, you know, we from that we derive our risk scores and our value scores for the companies that we invest in. And it's really the center of the center of information study to make sure that sort of up and running and ready for the day and then for the rest. My role is actually is pretty ad hoc in nature, which is really interesting. So I'll, you know, I can quite easily be helping equity analysts on some research, whether that's sort of, you know, broader thematic or, you know, a subsector of in real estate, you know, German residential or, you know, France offices or whatever. And then so I'll be helping them in that capacity or I could be very well, you know, they help the fund managers and all of that also sort of the cash management. And what I mean by that is sort of because we have a global fund, we obviously so we run, we run, run sort of currency forwards. Obviously, cash management and sort of sweeping and stuff like that has to be done quite regularly because so that's the more operational side of the fund, I guess. Yeah. So there's that part, too. And then obviously, there's the

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:30] You probably enjoy the research side a little bit more as to.

SkininTheGame16: [00:39:32] That's definitely yeah. Yeah. And then and then there's obviously on the more client side, obviously help the. So we have a product team because, you know, there's obviously that cement is big enough for that. But there's lots of there's lots of sort of much smaller, you know, much smaller meetings or things that, you know, fund managers might want me to prepare for, you know, presentations for roadshows for clients or so. Yeah, and stuff like that. And I also work quite closely with the general research team who for which we're basically building a pretty, a pretty impressive sort of asset database which is specific to real estate because, you know, you can actually map every single asset if you want. Yeah. So, so yeah. And I think, you know, obviously research and investment, that's the that's the direction.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:24] That's cool. Yeah. So do you feel like this position will eventually potentially allow you to become a fund manager one day or is that the goal?

SkininTheGame16: [00:40:32] What's the goal, I think. Yeah. So I mean, I think it does. I mean, it does. It's a question. It's a question of time, but also skill, because I think there's the progression in asset management in general is maybe not as structured and linear. So, you know,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:53] How do you speed up that time frame? Like, how do I wouldn't even know? Like obviously getting really being able to understand real estate itself like would really help, right? But does are the funds structured in such a way where like you could be a fund manager or of a real estate portfolio?

SkininTheGame16: [00:41:08] Yeah. Yeah, it could it could be. It could be the case, I think. Yeah. So obviously, yeah, so the understanding the asset class, but also there is part of it is a little bit of timing. So you know, if you just need, you know, for example, if you know, if one of the two co fund managers leaves the most senior equity analyst is probably going to be likely to be promoted to. So it's not as structured in that way. But to sort of answer your question, what a political question is, I'm actually looking to move into sort of direct real estate. So more RFP type style. Cool. So that's why that was that's the end goal. The Holy Grail.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:58] Have you? How has that gone in terms of your recruiting so far? Like, do you feel like you're getting traction because of the really? Because now you have a little bit of a theme with real estate theme there? Or is it are people not willing to look at you because oftentimes they're like, Oh, he doesn't have the direct investment experience? I think that's interesting for a lot of people because a lot of people get potentially stuck in an asset manager or a middle office position thinking, Well, can I make the jump to the direct investment side? And maybe, maybe you can shed some light on this?

SkininTheGame16: [00:42:23] Yeah, I think it's definitely I mean, it's definitely not easy, but I will say that being sort of in real estate, I think I think that really helps me because I understand, I understand the fundamentals. I understand the asset class. It helps me in that regard. But on the other hand, it is, yeah, it is pretty difficult. But I have, you know, gained traction a little bit more recently and it's only been more recently, but it's coming up to two years now. And I think it's at this point of my career that I think, you know, is the right time to try and do it because I'm guessing, you know, I think like for other industries, you know, I think you kind of do want to do it, you know, maybe, let's say, up into your first five or six years of,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:13] You know, 10, 10 years in.

SkininTheGame16: [00:43:15] Exactly. I think that I mean, yeah,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:18] Because then you're like, No, he's been doing this for like six years or whatever. He's been in this assistant role or whatever fund manager, assistant role. Yeah, it can kind of pigeonhole you a little bit if you can't make that pivot out. Well, I would just say to you, and if it takes you two more years to do it, just keep talking to people. Thanks. Thanks. Because I think, you know, you can eventually get there if you talk to the right person at the right time. A lot of it is luck and a lot of it is timing. And when if you have the knowledge and you speak, you speak intelligently about the asset class and maybe even show them that you've done some real estate modeling and you have those chops, I think you can potentially get an entry level role, which may be even a pay cut, but it's where you want to be long term and then you can grow with the fund, you know?

SkininTheGame16: [00:44:03] Exactly. That's kind of what I'm hoping and thinking. I mean, I think, you know,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:07] Has gotten better now that you lose move to the larger asset manager and you're in this kind of long haul hybrid role.

SkininTheGame16: [00:44:14] Yeah. Yeah, it has. It has. It has

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:16] 40, 50 or

SkininTheGame16: [00:44:18] Yeah, well, it's actually gone pretty much 56, 50,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:21] 60, 60. Yeah, that's great. 50, 60.

SkininTheGame16: [00:44:24] So it's, you know, it's it has changed.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:28] It has changed quite a bit that tough in London to live on that, though. Very expensive.

SkininTheGame16: [00:44:33] I mean, I mean, the thing is London is expensive, but it's a bit I mean, you can sort of I feel like I feel like 50s like you want to get to 50, OK? You can hear kind

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:48] Of, yeah, you can survive on the base. You don't have to have the bonus.

SkininTheGame16: [00:44:52] Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Babylon London is London is expensive. But I mean, like, you know, you don't have to go crazy, crazy on rent and rent. Rent isn't as bad as, I mean, I think it's not as bad as New York.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:06] I feel like I always thought it was a little bit worse, but maybe I'm wrong. I haven't lived in New York for one of the. Ten years, ten years, no. 12 years. Geez, I turned 40 recently, three months ago, and so it's still like I'm in shock that it went by so fast all this time. Well, this is this has been really interesting any kind of parting wisdom or advice you'd want to give people kind of in a similar background, maybe high school dropouts, online learners, anybody or anything else you want to tell them?

SkininTheGame16: [00:45:38] Sure. I mean, I think the first thing is that you know, you, you know, if you really if you really I'm not saying anyone can do anything, but I think that if you if you do, if you do put your heart to things and if you, you know, genuinely in an informed way where you sort of gone out and reach out to people and I know what it's about, you know, you can change things and that it's not because you don't necessarily have the more traditional background that that things won't work out. And then even beyond that, you know, maybe there's things that you're not aware of on the side. And so, yeah, so I think, you know, I think from my perspective, I've, you know, none of this was sort of planned. It's just every next step is like, what's the best option? So yeah, that'd be my biggest piece of advice.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:31] It's awesome. I love it. And I think it's really important advice. I think hopefully we're playing a small part in people understanding all these different paths people can take because I feel like one of the biggest things I think it plays to your story as well. It's just you don't know what you don't know. You don't know what's out there until you talk to somebody who's like, you know, like hedge fund. What? Like, what is that about? And then all of a sudden it opens up this whole other thing. And you know, even when I was in banking back in this a long time ago, it's going to take me 20 to. I had no idea what private equity was. I guess it was less prevalent back then and there was no Wall Street oasis. So I had a fellow analyst sit me down and be like, this is private equity. You want to get there. This is how you study for it here. Study the study this. And so it's funny how it just opens up your eyes. And you know, I remember thinking, Okay, what am I going to do after banking? And like, I think when you're younger, you typically sometimes don't look more than a couple of years ahead or even six months ahead. Yeah, nowadays that can be a real detriment. I really do think it can because like things are super early, and I think it's actually making things harder for kids who are not in the know early. So the high school student who knows what investment banking is, probably is that a huge advantage because recruiting freshman or sophomore year now? Yeah, it's crazy. And so I mean, you look at your story and you know, you didn't finish high school, you had some family issues and you traveled, I think your mom. I think the other thing was your mom was a really strong influence on you. I think she did a great job just kind of forcing you out of your bubble.

SkininTheGame16: [00:47:59] Thank you. Yeah, I agree. I agree 100 percent

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:03] If I helped you grow a lot. So. Well, thanks so much for sharing your story. I'm sure people enjoyed it. And yeah, let's stay in touch.

SkininTheGame16: [00:48:11] Sorry, I sorry, I missed that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:13] I'm saying, let's say, thanks for sharing your story and let's stay in touch.

SkininTheGame16: [00:48:16] Likewise, thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:18] It was great and thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.

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