WSO Podcast | E120: PwC Audit - TAS to M&A Valuations @ F500 - FinTech Director
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In this episode, FinTechSF shares his winding path from graduating during the financial crisis in 2008 and having to leave the US as an international student back to Dubai. Learn how he got his foot in the door at PwC in audit and managed to make the transition over to the transaction advisory practice in only 1.5 years even though they kept telling him no. Find out why he moved back to the US a few years later and eventually joined the corporate side in their M&A group.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 120) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, FintechSF shares his winding path from graduating during the financial crisis in two thousand eight and having to leave the U.S. as an international student back to Dubai. Learn how he got his foot in the door at an audit and managed to make the transition over to transaction advisory practice in only one point five years. Even though they kept telling him no. Find out also why he moved back to the U.S. a few years later and eventually joined the corporate side in their M&A group. Enjoy. Ok, Fintech, S.F. Thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
FinTechSF: [00:01:04] Hey, Patrick, happy to be here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:06] So it'd be great if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
FinTechSF: [00:01:10] Yeah. Happy to. So I've studied in school in California, graduated in 08, right in the heart of the financial crisis.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:19] Good time. Good time.
FinTechSF: [00:01:20] Yeah, yeah. To add to that, I was an international student, so I made life even harder to find a job.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:26] Oh my gosh. I just talked to a guy earlier today who also graduated exactly the way, and he turned down an offer from Goldman. And then, like three days later, Lehman collapsed. He's like, what did I do?
FinTechSF:: [00:01:37] Yeah, yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:38] Sorry, go ahead. So, yeah, so international student 08 graduate.
FinTechSF: [00:01:41] Yeah. So I was trying to make something happen in California. It didn't work out. I went back home, which is which is Dubai for me. Over in the Middle East, they Dubai itself was kind of reeling from this real estate crisis and managed to manage to grab a position in an audit with Big Four company BC. And you know, from there sort of navigated my way made it into transaction services, which is the M&A advisory side of things over there. Further on from there. Just sort of it's a global firm. They offer these opportunities for mobility in different offices made it out from the Dubai office to the San Francisco office, spent about eight years in Big Four and then pivoted over to the corporate side, which is where I am now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:31] Very cool. And then you were in M&A, basically for how long you've been in a couple of firms now for a couple of years, you were kind of in corp fin, right, as like doing M&A at a large company, right?
FinTechSF: [00:02:45] Yeah, that's right. It's been about three years or rather two years now since I've left NBC. And yeah, I've juggled a couple of corporate finance and specialty valuation roles. Great. So, yeah, everything is related sort of to valuations and different applications of it, not specifically to M&A, but also just to like financial reporting and just complex instruments.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:10] Very cool. So tell me a little bit about your upbringing. So you grew up in Dubai and you just you came to the states for school was the thought here. Hey, I'm going to get a job here in the States right after graduating before the financial crisis hit, what was the thought process? Had you travelled to the U.S. a lot? I'd love to hear a little bit just culturally how that was.
FinTechSF: [00:03:28] Yeah, no. I mean, you know, just very different economies, right? Very different stages of where things are in Dubai versus the US, Dubai still sort of, you know, trying to attract a lot of talent, spending a lot of capital to build out its infrastructure. And U.S., of course, is obviously relative to Dubai light years ahead. So, so the intent was always to start a career in the U.S., get all that experience and see where that takes me, right? Whether that keeps me behind in the U.S. or I have the opportunity to go back and Dubai and take on more leadership roles and manage an organization with all that experience gained in the in the U.S.. And that's typically the path you know most people take in Dubai. It attracts a lot of Western talent, specifically from the UK, and they're looking for people, you know, capable people, just good quality human capital to come and build stuff out there. So that was always the goal. Yeah, yeah. So two thousand eight threw a spanner in the works.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:34] And so you joined on it. Were you interested in audit at all or is just like what you could get when you went back to Dubai?
FinTechSF: [00:04:41] So, so when I was when I graduated and I was looking for stuff, you know, banking was obviously sort of the goal. And times are really challenging, didn't work out. I remember going back to Dubai and there's this financial center in downtown. It's called DFC, which is Dubai International Financial Center. I went to their website. I downloaded a list of every single office in the IFC operating their hedge fund, small boutique banks, advisory companies, whatever. Because that was the goal. I really wanted to get that experience and it was funny. I was as I was calling some of them, they were like, Yeah, we're shutting down, actually. So, wow.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:23] So I think a lot of the hedge funds, a lot of the hedge funds, you mean, like even the small banks were just like, That's it closing up shop.
FinTechSF: [00:05:29] Yeah, yeah. I mean, some of them just gotten destroyed. You know, the funds and then some of the boutique banks, just there was no deal flow. They just weren't able to take things off the ground.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:41] Wonder how much of that is similar to now, given everything that's going on with COVID? I mean, probably what seems like the market is ignoring a lot of the fact that we're in a recession, right? But like it's kind of it's kind of a it's interesting dichotomy between the two times like ten years ago and now and how there's some similarities, but it doesn't feel quite the same. This looks like it's a more of a temporary situation where, like there, it almost felt like the whole world, like the whole financial system was going to collapse, right? At least from when I remember it.
FinTechSF: [00:06:15] Yeah, no. It's funny. It's funny how much of it is the same and how much of it is different, right? I mean, and you can see a lot of the similar sort of stopgap measures being put in place, you know, federal aid coming in and whatnot. Obviously, the quantity and the and the packages are different. But yeah, in 08, we kind of went when this was going to end sort of. Yeah, with COVID. Who knows? Second wave. Third wave? Who knows. Right. That's the scary part. But yeah, you're right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:45] So you started an audit, you said, but then you eventually transition to transaction advisory services. What was the thought process there? Because you learned from somewhere that you wanted to be on the transaction side because it interested you or because you thought, Hey, for my career, this is a good move.
FinTechSF: [00:07:01] Yeah, I think I think it was just a matter of personal interest. And you asked the question earlier about why I got into audit. It was a lot of times. I mean, the mindset I had was that, look, this is a huge organization, right? They do a bunch of stuff. I'm not going to say no to an opportunity to be part of the organization, even though it's not my initial choice. My first choice was not audit. Of course, I'd always been interested in the in the M&A side of things. But the fact that I could I could be part of this company and see where that takes me was what appealed to me. And then and then, yeah, just got in and then puts the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:36] Safety, the safety of a big company. In those times, I would think that theoretically, it's a little especially audit like people still need to do their audits, right?
FinTechSF: [00:07:45] Yeah, it's the bread and butter, right? So it keeps the lights on. So there's always going to be work, you're going to be busy. And for someone fresh out of college, look, it's a great learning experience. You're working with some really big clients in that part of the world. Yeah, it's just it's just great hands-on experience to just get things going. And meanwhile, you're sort of talking to people, working things out and getting getting to eventually where you want to go.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:08] Yeah, tell me about that transition because I've talked to a few people who have made that same exact transition. You're talking about the the to internally. And I know for some people it is super hard. Other people, it was like, not that hard. I'd love to hear just your experience. Did you have to network for like a year or a couple of years? Did you just work in a few things with the team and then eventually they liked you and brought you over? How did it exactly work out for you?
FinTechSF: [00:08:31] I mean, thankfully not, not a year of not a lot of a lot of networking involved there. But I will say I did knock on a couple of the doors and a lot of people were like, Yeah, look, we're kind of small and we're very agile and we're very top heavy. You need to have an MBA or certain amount of banking experience to get into this. So, so a lot of it was just meeting people learning about what the team does, what they sort of how they're structured and the work they have.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:55] So they're basically telling, you know, for a while, for a little bit, at least. Yeah, yeah.
FinTechSF: [00:09:00] In fact, when, when even before I got into audit, when I was talking to the recruiter, I told them my first preference and he said, Yeah, but this is what they're looking for and you don't have any of that in terms of an MBA or a work experience. And so yes, it's not the first time I heard of no, but that didn't deter me the opportunity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:20] So the recruiter was right. And then it's got your foot in the door. Yeah. Yes. Audit. Ok. And then I mean, I've heard it's sometimes tough. So you were still hearing no, a little bit like even once you were internal.
FinTechSF: [00:09:32] Yeah. And that's why you just got to be persistent, right? Like, I knew, like five to 10 years out, right? I didn't see myself being a. Not in practice. Sure, I saw myself being on the deal side of things. And that persistence just kicks in. You want to you want to make that happen ASAP. So yeah, it's just a matter of talking to more people and not being not being discouraged by hearing a no. Was it because
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:56] The team was so small in Dubai for the valuation side? It was that kind of the one of the impediments like, did you feel like you had to make a transition first to the U.S. office because you were in Dubai for a good five years, right?
FinTechSF: [00:10:09] Yeah, yeah. I transition two to evaluations within Dubai itself.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:15] Ok. Was that a small team, relatively small team?
FinTechSF: [00:10:17] It was a small team. They have a ton of work. So, so the way the way it works is you're always looking for people who can hit the ground running. And so if you've got a build that that sort of that belief in them that, yep, I'm capable, I know what I'm doing. I understand that these things work, et cetera.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:39] What did you have to show that you knew about valuation and how do you demonstrate that an audit?
FinTechSF: [00:10:44] It's not just about valuation. So I mean, I mean, and it's in its essence, right valuation is just a cash flow model, and there's a set of cash flows in a discount, right? Right, right. And it's and it's in its essence, the part that I think sets most people out is, hey, what did you learn in audit that you could leverage in valuations, right? And there's two things that I sort of picked up. One was just getting really grounded in financial statements, right? A lot of folks who focus so much on the finance, the corporate finance side of things sort of seem a little out of place when dealing with complex accounting matters. Sometimes those could have valuation impacts. You know, when you don't know how to read a balance sheet properly, you know it could throw you in a loop. So that was one thing just demonstrating like, yep, I've got background. I know I know how to read this stuff and to we're just bringing some of that commercial insight. One of the benefits of audit is you're literally sitting with a client and you're asking them all these questions about their business. That is great. First hand experience and exposure, right? Yeah. And that's something that, like I mentioned earlier, it's at its core at its essence. Valuation is just a cash flow discount rate. The color and the quality that comes in is that commercial experience. How do you make sense out of this? How do you tell a story from the numbers? So a lot of that was just demonstrating that, yep, I've got that commercial inside, too. And I know I know that
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:15] Around clients too, right?
FinTechSF: [00:12:16] Yeah. Just being able to speak and being able to talk and relate to things. And so how
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:21] How many years did it take you to make that jump two years before you, a
FinTechSF: [00:12:25] Year and a half a year and a half? Pretty fast, pretty fast. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you got to push hard. You've got to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:31] Keep at it. When was the first time you said, Hey, did you talk to HR or who did you talk to like a mentor in the valuation practice and to that, like,
FinTechSF: [00:12:39] It's it's one of those things where you start from the bottom and work your way up. I started talking to a couple of senior associates, managers and task teams, and then they would just keep referring me and referring me and referring me. And I made my way from like a senior manager to a director. And then I was sitting in the partner's office saying, Hey, what do you think make this happen?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:00] How long did that whole process take and tell me a little bit about, like what the conversations were like because I think there's people who are find themselves in seat. It's I think it's always interesting, especially for people who want to go to investment banking. We always say this is kind of where you need to be in the big four to have that shot to transition, you know?
FinTechSF: [00:13:17] Yeah. And I think why that's true is this because of the reasons I mentioned earlier, you're getting you're getting hands on sort of experience with financial statements, just getting commercial insights, especially on the diligence side of things, you literally ripping the company apart and figuring it all out. And that's so much more valuable than just knowing how to pick a discount rate, right? Both of which are equally important. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of those conversations were exactly that. You know, folks are saying, yeah, but you know, valuations and M&A is very different from audit. So how can what experience can you bring in and it's going to take a while. Our team is pretty small and no one's got the time to handle things like that. It was just sort of going back and forth all the time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:00] What was what was the most junior person they had their
FinTechSF: [00:14:03] An MBA at that time? Yeah, yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:06] They really weren't lying when they say, Oh, you have to have an MBA?
FinTechSF: [00:14:10] No, no, no, they weren't. They weren't.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:12] And so eventually you convince them to give you a shot.
FinTechSF: [00:14:16] Yeah, a lot of that was like I said, I'd already been in audit for a year. I was I done two out of my three A-levels already and I was taking this third one. That summer, you were hard.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:28] You're proving that you like you were living at the office. You are stepping up for all the hard projects putting in long hours. Is that accurate?
FinTechSF: [00:14:36] Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there are sacrifices you have to make, right? Yeah, you've got to put in the time in the effort.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:41] Just talking to you, I can tell you were diligent.
FinTechSF: [00:14:44] Yeah, I mean, the networking and all of that is just one aspect of it. But ultimately, you've got to put you to the test. And I mean, you still have to go through internal interviews and whatnot. It's not just, you know, partner picking up the phone and making a call and saying, you have just move him from here to there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:00] How did you deal with the audit like your boss is in audit? Were they upset or were they annoyed? Do they know you were doing all this networking and you kept trying, trying to be like? What's wrong with us?
FinTechSF: [00:15:10] It's one of those things that you've got to be careful about how you navigate because there's the official way to do it right. You know, you talk to your coach and your coach raises a request and sets up a meeting and whatnot. Or they're sort of the quote unquote informal way they do it where you just have sort of coffee conversations with people and say, Hey, I'm interested. What do you think? So, so to answer your question, people were aware, but and it's not uncommon. I'm not the first one to do this, but you know, for most people, for my coach or for other people in the audit practice, right? There's a bunch of other things that are top priority for them to have clients engagements and lots of other stuff going on. And you were getting
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:54] Your work done and you weren't complaining.
FinTechSF: [00:15:57] Yeah, of course. That's priority, right? You can't you can't be one of those that have.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:02] Yeah, if you're just like an audit stinks, audit stinks. I want to go valuation. Yes, you're never going to make.
FinTechSF: [00:16:07] I mean, then then you're going to lose P.W. altogether and just audit you. Just you'll just be like, This guy's not a team player. It just doesn't work. So, yeah, so folks know about it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:18] That reminds me of there is a there is a thread on the site. The other day about it was really funny. It was this guy saying, this is how this is, how an intern got me to forward his resume. And it started out going through all the things the person did. And then it was like all these horrible things. Being sarcastic was all esoteric, like all the horrible things it could be said. So he was like, Yeah, I don't want to do. What about investment banking? Like, it was just ignoring what the person is just trying to see if they had a connection like so horribly, just a horrible job at networking. And so like, I think there's a little bit of that here. You really need to make sure that you're not. You're so grateful for what you have and you're not throwing it in people's faces.
FinTechSF: [00:16:57] And there's like ways to have those conversations, right? So when I when I started on it, I was part of the team that they had, which is called. I mean, they called it sips sips. But what that meant was, you know, the consumer sector. And when I was talking to my coach, like, it's like, look, maybe audits, not all that bad. Maybe just maybe just this team's not for you. Why don't you try out a different team? Why don't you get a financial services or energy or something like that? And instead of just knowing how to have those conversations? And one thing that helps me was is that I told him like, Look, I've worked with seniors on certain engagements like managers or senior managers, and I've seen the work they do. And I've just asked myself, Is that where I want to be five to 10 years from now? Is that sort of responsibilities and the interactions and the level of work that I want to be doing? And my answer was, well, not really right. I see myself on sort of operating in this M&A type of situation, working on deals and having different sorts of experiences. I recognize all this work is very valuable, but I just don't see myself being here five or 10 years out. And how I made that call was looking at what my seniors are. So, so at least they understand that. All right, this guy's not just, you know, I want to be in banking. He's put thought into it and he knows what he wants and he knows how to get there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:17] You had well, structured answers. It wasn't like just a, Hey, I want to do this and I want to do that for good reason. Ok, so you're yeah, tell me about the transition from Dubai back to the U.S. and how did that happen? I know you said it's a global organization, so kind of offer that opportunity, but tell me why you came back and what that was like.
FinTechSF: [00:18:37] And I mean, it comes back to just, you know, the fact that very different economies, right? I mean, I've been in Dubai for about five years with the valuations team there and Dubai, it's great because it's a small, relatively small economy compared to the U.S. and you get to work with the best clients we like. We had sovereign wealth funds. We have PE funds, the big family businesses of the Middle East as all of our clients. And after a certain point, you're like, Well, there's got to be more to life than this, right? What all this folks in the U.S. talking about all the time? You know, I want to go see some of that. So it's just a curiosity and just application of a skill set in a different environment. There isn't. There isn't sort of, you know, this this this big SEC type watchdog in the US and all these massive reporting requirements, whatnot. The stock market's not as big as it is in the U.S. So the type of work you do, the nature of the work you do is very, very different from what it's done in the U.S. valuations office by PBC, for example. So it's still valuations. It's just different applications of it. And that's not
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:51] What type of companies are you valuing and for what and mergers. It was like a fairness opinion stuff. What were you? What is the team specifically do?
FinTechSF: [00:19:58] So it was actually a straight up just valuation advisory. So how much is good business worth right? Got it. Helping them
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:08] Build. Private equity funds looking to sell whatever it could be a whole range of things.
FinTechSF: [00:20:14] Yeah, yeah. Just exit by sites outside everything. But the key distinction is right. When I came to the U.S. and the valuation team over here does a lot of what's known as purchase price allocations or goodwill allocation exercises, which doesn't really that kind of work when I was in Dubai didn't really quite exist at that time. So that was that was great, huge learning opportunity. What is a purchase price allocation? I mean, I know what it is, theoretically, but how do you do them? And again, it's just valuation. It's just different applications of it. So things like that was just interesting. And then to add to that, I got to the San Francisco office for PDC and all all of the clients over here are all tech companies as you imagine the Googles of the world, and that is experience that I was not getting into by. Right? Just the economy. Dubai's more real estate banking and consumer, largely speaking and tech is obviously, you know, very, very fast growing part of the economy. And I'd love to get some of that experience. So a couple of things that sort of pushed me to make this move happen. And again, it wasn't easy, right? And nothing ever is. What was the hardest
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:31] Part of the jump?
FinTechSF: [00:21:33] Well, first, figuring out what the team does, right? Evaluations, I spent hours on LinkedIn, just messaging lots of busy folks and different offices Canada, Australia all over. I mean, hey, what do you guys do there? I just didn't want to assume it's the same work. And then and then, I mean, how do you explain to someone, Hey, why did you pick San Francisco like CBC's offices everywhere? Europe is attractive. One that's attractive. Why don't you go there and what team right? Within valuations? There's modeling teams and there's other teams. So you really got to put in the effort because it just makes the process that much easier
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:13] To figure out kind of what would be a good fit for yourself. Is that what you mean by effort?
FinTechSF: [00:22:17] Yep. What will be what location is so I actually interviewed with a bunch of folks. I interviewed it with the London office. I had conversations with the Australia office. Those didn't work out, and I was very, very heartbroken. I really wanted to make it happen, right? When you add a stage in your career, you're still, you know, not not too experienced, relatively young because moving is always difficult. Folks typically assume you move and you join at the same position, but oftentimes you take a step back and doing that becomes that much harder. When you're more experienced, you're more senior. Yeah. So I felt like the timing was right, so I really wanted to happen. And when London and Australia didn't work out, it's kind of a bummer. But you just keep pushing. And again, it was just networking. I got hold of a recruiter for ABC in the in the San Jose office, actually not in San Francisco. And yeah, I was talking to her and then she put me in touch with a partner. And then and then that's kind of what kicked it all off.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:16] It's so interesting. It's like you work at the same company, but you're still networking outside of it like the recruiters.
FinTechSF: [00:23:22] Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:23] Yeah. So that just shows you how massive it is. It's like you need to like hustle on your own to stay within the same company if you're moving. I mean, it's a big move.
FinTechSF: [00:23:30] So I understand. But you said it, right? I mean, the effort is still there. It's people think that it's a big company, so they have all these processes in place. But oftentimes I mean that it kind of slows things down a little bit, maybe. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:46] And there's too many, too many yeses that have to happen. Yeah, yeah. So tell me, OK, so you're there. You're here in SF for three plus years. The transition I see eventually you started kind of getting up to speed. You felt good after a year or so. Stay there for a few more years. And then when did you start kind of looking to go out into corporate and do more corporate and work on that side on the M&A?
Speaker2 FinTechSF: couple of years, right after eight years to see, I was like, Well, do I see myself becoming partner here? Is this what I want the rest of my life to be like? That's one question I always ask myself, and the other question is I always look to my senior right. I look at a partner director and be like, is that who I want to be five years from now? Or is that what I want to be doing five years from now? And when those questions become difficult to answer, then you know it's time for a change. And consulting is sort of as folks are well aware is stop, just go, go, go. I was looking for a different pace of life, getting some more work life balance, getting to enjoy some downtime. Were you traveling
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:01] On the same or not?
FinTechSF: [00:25:04] Fortunately, I mean, not long distance travel like on a cross country or cross continents. It's just within within the San Francisco Bay Area. So I would if I would call that travel. But it was it was still it was still a lot of just, you know, a lot of long nights, a lot of lot of effort and you do get burnt out. I have a lot of respect for folks that see it all the way through, become the MDS and the partners. But but I just knew that it wasn't for me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:31] Yeah. So you're looking for a change of pace, you change of pace. You thought maybe the corporate side would provide that? Did you know specifically, how did you even find this role as M&A? It's so M&A, corporate finance, you're basically looking at potential acquisition candidates or dispositions for the company.
FinTechSF: [00:25:49] And it was more to do with helping evaluate targets, ones that have been identified rather than the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:59] Internal evaluation team.
FinTechSF: [00:26:01] Exactly right. So the benefit of being in consulting is right. You're interacting with so many different companies, organizations, teams within organizations. So you kind of have a sense of what everybody does. And you know, a lot of times you're talking to clients and you're like, Man, this job sounds cool. I could do that. So, so that kind of gives me a sense, give me a sense of what I wanted to the next step to be for me. And then that's just informed my search. Then I started looking for very specific in-house evaluation roles. Just leveraging my skill to ride, the last thing you want to do is promise someone that, yeah, I'm this big hotshot deal maker and then and then show up and just falls flat.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:44] So you came in knowing that you were going to do a lot of similar work that you already had a lot of experience since you feel confident? Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about like now you'd been in the states for a good three, three plus years. Was your family? Did you ever get to see your family? Did you have significant other at all? Like what was the kid? What's the what was the. Looking like, yeah, maybe you're still pretty young, but just curious.
FinTechSF: [00:27:11] The interesting part was when I moved with P-TECH from Dubai to San Francisco. Typically, the way such programs are structured is they're a two year program. You go spend time in an office abroad and then you learn all these wonderful things and then come back to the Home Office and then share the wealth of knowledge. Yeah, but but when I got to San Francisco in April or May, I was down
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:35] 15 is what year? Linkedin says. But yeah,
FinTechSF: [00:27:37] Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, I was down in L.A. for a project for work. I happened to meet someone. We hit it off. We kept in touch. And six months later, we got engaged. So. Wow. So and at that point I called the Home Office is the guys. I don't think I'm coming back now. This is it. This is me. And they understand there's a lot of maybe surprise, a lot of relationships sort of end up developing at work just by virtue of how much time you guys spent there, right? Yeah. So, so, so yeah, that was a huge factor in eventually why I ended up staying back. And yeah, yeah, we got married a year later.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:17] And yeah, congrats. So this was this is another fellow consultant, but la la.
FinTechSF: [00:28:25] Yeah, we're both up here now in San Francisco.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:28] Awesome. So you make the jump. You kind of have your you have at least a support system. Here is your extended family, your mom and dad. They back in Dubai still.
FinTechSF: [00:28:39] Yeah. And that sometimes becomes there's one of those things you have to juggle. There's a 12 hour time difference. All right. So you're not going to talk to them like every day and you might see them once a year getting on a 16 hour flight and things like that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:53] Yeah, it's tough. So you start this, you start this kind of corporate finance M&A role where you're kind of helping this large company kind of do evaluations or some valuation work rather of potential acquisition candidates or once they were kind of already under LOI or whatever it was. Yeah. Tell me a little bit of what that work was like. Did you enjoy it? I mean, you weren't doing the deals and going out and searching for them, but you are really an integral part of the team, I assume.
FinTechSF: [00:29:19] It's awesome because you really have to dive very, very deep into literally the nuts and bolts of how to make, how to make how to evaluate a potential business. And what I mean by that,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:35] Like, are you doing like precedente transactions? You're doing everything from the DCF through all the corporate finance stuff.
FinTechSF: [00:29:44] Well, a bit of both, right, you want you want multiple data points, of course, but it's a lot of getting your hands dirty and just getting into the financials and seeing what historical trends have been trying to develop a view of what the business could look like five to 10 years from now. And I recognize, as I say, that you know how strange that sounds. Nobody knows what it's going to look like 10 years from now. But but just the thought exercise of it is what is where the beauty is. What I mean by that is there's experts within the organization divided into business teams. There's no the marketing and the product guys. And then there's the supply side guys and you're working with all of them to understand one. What could the market for this product look like? To what cost constraints could there be an industry? How do we build an organization around this particular business and what support they need? You're literally constructing this little business plan and then you're seeing what that's worth. So just the end still looks like a straightforward Bcf exercise, but just the path leading up to it. Having all those conversations about the business, the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:03] Operating model projection model is actually pretty complex because you're trying to get so many different inputs from everybody in terms of the actual support team that needs to be in place. Everything?
FinTechSF: [00:31:12] Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:13] Pricing power, everything. Yeah.
FinTechSF: [00:31:15] And then just telling and like one key aspect of my job was then right before I did was the I talked to the CFO and that was great, like literally Fortune 500 company CFO, just straight up coming to me and saying, Hey, what do you think? So that was new. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:34] And then I get this wrong.
FinTechSF: 00:31:36] Yeah, right. And that's where that's where you realize, like, I'm not just going to take my DCF model to him and be like, Look, this is the NPV. No, like it's he's going to want to know, Hey, where do you think the synergies are? What is the chances of success of this and know? Do you think we are the right buyer for such business? And so answering those questions, so it's not just the numbers, it's there's a lot of type stuff that goes unsaid.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:03] You got to know your internal resources, right in terms of what you can bring to the. Yeah. Yeah.
FinTechSF: [00:32:09] Because that meeting with the CFO, it's just him and me. I don't have this entire team sitting there taking all these questions from him, which he expects me to know because I'm the one who's built the model. And just that level of granularity and just really becoming an expert in one particular sector or just one particular business as opposed to when you're in consulting. Yes, you have a sector focus, but you're still sort of a generalist, you know, you don't really go down to that level of detail, especially maybe on the big four consulting side. But when you incorporate, of course, you're living and breathing that that's what you do in a day to day. So you're sitting in a room with all these experts talking the language of industry and yeah, that was a great learning opportunity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:58] It's great. So you're there for almost two years in terms of what you were thinking in terms of your next step. You're now in the Bay Area. So I feel like the venture the venture draw came calling for the excitement of startup land came calling and you couldn't resist.
FinTechSF: [00:33:16] Yeah, yeah, you have to, right? I mean, it's one of those things that you're never satisfied as a person. Initially, I was looking for this fantastic thing called work life balance, and then I got it, and then I realized how much I missed the hustle. And then then it's just one of those things. You're just going up and down all the time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:33] Was it working in M&A, corporate finance? Were you working like? I assume you were working like 60 to 80 hour weeks. And then did it drop the more consistent 60 50 60?
FinTechSF: [00:33:44] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, within that it was it was good. Yeah, because again, it comes down to how much of a serial acquirer the company is that you're working with and whether it's just a lot of sort of evaluations. And, you know, we're conservative as a company, so we're not going to put in all bids. So, so a lot of it comes down to that which is good and bad. I mean, it's good because, you know, I learned a lot and I had my work life balance. It's bad because, well, it just becomes repetitive after a certain time. Yeah. So, yeah, so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:21] There for a couple of years, when did you start kind of looking at the fintech scene? Or was it just a random recruiter calling you? How did that trend were you thinking of a move after like a year and a half? Or you're thinking, maybe it's time?
FinTechSF: [00:34:35] I mean, so it was, I'd say, probably about a year and a half. Yeah, that sounds about right. It was when I started looking because there's always a sharp learning curve whenever you join in this place, right? And when I joined that last company, it took a solid, I guess, four to five months. Just like you're swimming in the deep end. Yeah, just to find your feet. And then after that, a learning curve sort of starts to flatten out and then you realize, Well, is that it, you know? And I get it like if I was 45 or something with five kids and you know, yeah, that kind of that kind of position would be ideal. I'd love to just I'm headed there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:18] I'm 40 with three kids. I'm close. No, I'm done. I'm done. Yes, go ahead. Yeah. I totally get it. I agree. I think that first year, even like the first six months, you're if not drowning, trying to try to swim and then it does fly and you're like, Oh my gosh, this is so crazy. And then eventually you're like, Wait a second, you're in. You're like, I got this.
FinTechSF: [00:35:39] Yeah, and then and then I was like, Well, what's next, guys, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:44] It just felt like, I think, like they would give you more responsibility or change? Or was there anything internally that you could have done that would have changed things like maybe work more on the deal side?
FinTechSF: [00:35:54] I think that opportunity specifically did not exist. There were other opportunities non deal related, more sort of internal finance related, which I wasn't too keen on,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:06] Like FPI type stuff
FinTechSF: [00:36:08] Like espionage type stuff, which it's more. Yeah, it's just it's just becomes it's very procedural,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:18] And you would have been born there six months later, probably.
FinTechSF: [00:36:22] And I mean, I didn't want to use, I didn't want a board. Ok. A lot of people will love that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:28] Love that some people love it.
FinTechSF: [00:36:29] Yeah, credit to them. That's what keeps them going. For me, I just felt like I know you're very, very deadline constrained and now just timelines closing and whatnot reporting requirements. And I feel like that's just going back to Typekit again. And I don't want that. I don't want the constant pressure of deadlines and just just, you know. There's been go, go, go all the time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:53] And so you were getting prepared pretty well. You were a manager at BWC eight years there. I assume you were getting mid one hundreds at that point, if not close to 200 plus, you know. Did you have to take a pay cut for that, for that lifestyle upgrade to the corporate side?
FinTechSF: [00:37:09] No, I think I think that when I was in B.C., there's always that notion, you know, when you're in consulting, you're like, Oh, the folks on the corporate side probably make a lot more than I do and work a lot less than I do, at least in my experience. That proved to be right. So when it was,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:27] You did make the jump. You made a big pay increase.
FinTechSF: [00:37:29] Yeah, there was there was a pay boom. There was a massive reduction in or so. So yeah, that makes
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:35] You want on both sides. So why look? Yeah, no. I get it. I understand you miss the hustle. You're like, Hey, I want some upside.
FinTechSF: [00:37:43] It's one of those things, right? There's the show called Silicon Valley that I heard this line on there that stuck with me. It was a line called rest and best right. Stick around. No one's bothering you about your options, vest and Materazzi as fast and just chill. And I always
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:00] Think that was Yeah.
FinTechSF: [00:38:02] Yeah. And I still always think that is the life. But then but then I mean, I didn't quite live with that. But yeah, I realize at some point I have a lot more time, which is good. Maybe I could start a side hustle, but I'm not that creative. So, so I have a lot more to offer intellectually. So why not just find something else that's really sort of making me put me a little bit more on edge and see where that takes me?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:33] Do you find found your current role again in something in valuations? So we'll call it fintech just to keep you anonymous. But yeah, tell me a little bit how you found that was a recruiter. You had just LinkedIn. What kind of opened up those doors?
FinTechSF: [00:38:48] It was LinkedIn. Again, it was just I knew I wanted to stay and valuations because that is that is sort of, you know, for lack of a better word, what sets me apart, right? That's what I know best and what I can do best, right? So I'm always the valuations roles. And yeah, so there was this role at this fintech company and it seemed super exciting, right? Just a world of fintech is again something that's changing the finance industry. Big banks are starting to sort of change how they do things and because just these fintech companies are just being so disruptive. Yeah, it was exciting. This opportunity came along and they were looking for someone to sort of lead the valuations team and it was a win on both sides. Again, it was just more money. It was it was a leadership. I had my own team and as well as it was a fast paced and dynamic working environment. So yeah, that was that was a good move.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:54] And then in terms of the future, you think just probably be in the startup scene going forward indefinitely or probably maybe try to maybe rest invest for a little while, even though you're not really resting place to invest if you stick around?
FinTechSF: [00:40:07] Yeah, yeah. I think I think for now, that's what it seems like. Like what's going to happen? Yeah, it's been it's been a couple of months, actually, not too long. Yeah. So it's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:19] All new for you.
FinTechSF: [00:40:20] So on you learning a lot, how many
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:23] How many people, how big is your team? If you don't mind sharing, you can give a range.
FinTechSF: [00:40:27] It's not. It's not like a huge organization. It's two to five, which is which is good enough for me being a first time manager in a team lead. Yeah, yeah. So that's not easy.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:36] It's not easy. Call me. Well, this has been great. Anything else you want to share, just like a career advice or any words of wisdom? Kind of looking back on your path that you you'd like to share, maybe for international students or just in general?
FinTechSF: [00:40:49] I mean, I the one the one thing that's helped me all the time and just keep an open mind and never think there's something you cannot do. I've changed industries. I've changed continents and changed different teams and a lot of things. And I'm I'm probably no, I'm not like some genius or anything with, Hi, I'm your average guy, and if I can do it, anybody can do it. So just it's just a matter of just staying persistent and keeping it up in mind.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:18] Like, that's inspirational. Like, I like it. I love the inspiration. So well, thank you so much for taking the time and sharing your story with everybody.
FinTechSF: [00:41:27] Yeah, absolutely no. This was great. Thanks for giving me the opportunity
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:30] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis dot com. And till next time.
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