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WSO Podcast | E122: CLO Structuring at Morgan Stanley to Restructuring at Citi to Buyside at a Family Office

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In this episode, Jason shares his path coming from a non-target school, and how a mentor from his home town changed his life. Listen to how he was able to land a few critical internships, prepare for the interviews, and beat the odds to land a full-time offer in the fixed income division of Morgan Stanley right out of undergrad. Learn why he ended up moving over to Citi in their investment banking division and eventually why he jumped to the buy-side at a family office.

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WSO Podcast (Episode 122) Transcript:

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, Jason shares his path coming from a non-target school and how a mentor from his hometown changed his life. Listen to how he was able to land a few critical internships, prepare for the interviews and beat the odds to land a full time offer in the fixed income division of Morgan Stanley right out of undergrad. Learn why he ended up moving over to Citi in their investment banking division and eventually why he jumped to the buy side family office. Enjoy. All right, Jason, welcome to the Wall Street Oasis podcast.

Jason: [00:01:00] Hey, thanks, Patrick. Glad to be here.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:01:02] So it would be awesome if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.

Jason: [00:01:06] Sure. So I'm from New Jersey. I went to college at Rutgers Business School, majored in finance, my economics out of school. I went to Morgan Stanley as my first job after my junior summer internship undisclosed structuring this. It's been a few years there and want to make the switch to more of a traditional investment banking where I want to learn more about those companies that we're securitizing and our close. So I made the switch to Citigroup's restructuring financing that spent a year and a half there and then made the switch to the buy side where I'm currently at Tishman family office, where I'm an investment associate covering a broad range of things, some being structured credit, corporate credit, and I've also gotten the opportunity to look into VC and real estate as well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:01:47] Very fun. Cool. So let's start all the way back at Rutgers. Tell me a little bit about why Rutgers did you know you wanted to be finance from, like, freshman year? Were you always like, were you on so back freshman year? Like, how do I do this? Or or even in high school? What was the path in terms of like?

Jason: [00:02:06] Sure. So definitely didn't know anything about investment banking or anything in finance. I had one uncle who did risk management at BNP, so he was the only person I ever knew that did anything remotely close to the finance industry at all. Yeah, I chose Rutgers because what did your parents do? My parents and my father, he's a pharmacist and then my mother, she was a stay at home mom. She also was an accountant before, I guess, while I was young. And then she became like a full time stay at home mom. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. But I chose Rutgers because some of it was both my parents went to Rutgers, so Rutgers always kind of ingrained in my mind. And it was really close to a lot of things that were going on. So I felt like it was close to New York. There's a lot of opportunities in New York, and there's also a lot of great companies, like medical companies in New Jersey. Yeah. So the location was really good and I was from I'm from New Jersey, so the in-state tuition was really good. So I thought, like the program, how many different courses and majors that they offer, plus its location and price made it the best pick for sure.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:03:11] What was it like per year? Was it like under 20 k

Jason: [00:03:14] O per year now? It was about like 20 K. So yeah, yeah, for in-state, pretty good. That's pretty good. Now it's about like 30 something.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:03:26] Ok, so it's not so cheap. That's crazy, man for me.

Jason: [00:03:29] It just gets more and more expensive every year.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:03:32] Ok, so yeah, so did you. Did you graduate with a lot of student debt? Still, because it was like twenty something per year. So that's still like

Jason: [00:03:39] I got some scholarships and then I did my internships. I made some money. Yeah, I didn't graduate too much that, but I it all paid off now. So that's really, really good.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:49] Sweet man. Okay. So you're kind of you didn't really know too much. You had one uncle kind of risk management. So when did you kind of I see you were part of like the LIBOR or the little investment bankers at Rutgers? Yeah, I love that name for your. You had to join that. When and when did you kind of start thinking, hey, finance is something I want to do? Was it like sophomore year junior where you late like junior senior year? What happened?

Jason: [00:04:12] Sure. So. So when initially when I went to college, I wanted to become a doctor or do something in medicine, but I didn't do too great. Inmarsat's I did really good in school, but I didn't take my assets very seriously and I couldn't get into like those really good programs at Rutgers offer, like the pharmacy school.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:04:32] And because your sets to get into the school, even though you had like a four.

Jason: [00:04:35] Yeah, yeah, it's they're really telling you. The pharmacy school at Rutgers is like one of the most competitive programs out there. It's like probably the best pharmacy school in the country.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:04:44] Maybe. And when do you have to actually get into that? Is that like an undergrad thing, like where you have to like, get it placed into it like, right, right when you get there? Or is it like,

Jason: [00:04:54] Oh, well, you could get in once you're already in school, but then you're kind of behind because you have to take classes and then but they got to get it. Well, I didn't get in. I was like, OK, I don't know what to do. I don't know what. Because when I grew up, I grew up in Union City, New Jersey. It was kind of like, it's a bad area. So the things that the careers I only do like just with being a lawyer, a doctor engineering far like the typical stereotypical job. So when that path was kind of like a little muted on the side, I was like, Wow, I don't know what to do. So I got to tend to the business school, and my thought was, I can stay here, still take all these science classes and then maybe I want to go transition to another school, wanted to go get my stay for the MCAT things that I could to do that. So I went to like a involvement day and there was one group, the little libre. And there's these guys that were there and they're talking about their summer internships. I worked at Goldman Sachs, somebody who at Goldman Sachs. Was like, you should come to the information meeting we talk about like the careers we had. So I was like, some of these are close to this one of all the 10 different places I saw. And I went and they were speaking about the type of role you can have, the career trajectory you could have from coming from investment banking or front office finance. And also the type of compensation a lot of the kids were getting.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:06:18] And you're like, what?

Jason: [00:06:20] I was like, Wow. Like, I actually called my uncle. I said, Hey, is this like a scam? Is this one of those scams like all like this much? And then he goes, Oh, this is real. But it's very, very tough.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:06:31] And then you're like, I want it. You're like, I can do it.

Jason: [00:06:35] Yeah, I thought I got to go to school for eight years. I have to go to school for I don't have to go apply for my JD or I have to take these crazy exams. I just have to try really hard in school. And at the time, I was like a freshman, so I didn't really know the tall order it really took to really get these jobs from a non Ivy League or top 10 school, right? So that's kind of like how I made the decision. I want to do something in finance and particularly one of these front office roles.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:00] Do you think you would have had a perfect GPA if you didn't know about this? Or do you think that drove you knowing that, knowing that you had to kind of you had very little wiggle room for error? Did that drive you at school to do so well?

Jason: [00:07:13] I definitely say it definitely drives drive me, because when I told other people I met about my ambitions to wanting to go into front office finance, they said, Oh, you want to go to Rutgers? There's no way in the game to XYZ Bank or any of these programs. You need to have at least three or three point seven GPA. Yeah. And I was like, Whoa, three point seven GPA. Everyone where I grew up, I only saw about failing in college and barely passing. Yeah, getting a B was amazing. So I was like, How am I going to get a job?

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:07:47] So how did you do? How did you do in high school when you didn't do well on the SAT? But how did you do in high school where you get student then?

Jason: [00:07:53] Well, yeah, I was a really good student. For some reason, I have a knack for doing one and in school, in class. Yeah. And I'm just not really good. I'm not a really amazing, standardized test taker. I graduated third in my class from my high school. Yeah. And the other students that were in the top five, they all went to Ivy League schools. I was like one of the only few that then goes in out of school.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:08:12] So why do you think? You struggled on the SAT. You didn't take it seriously, you didn't know how important it was like for placement or you knew you wanted to stay near home anyways.

Jason: [00:08:22] I don't know. I think I've never been an amazing test taker. Well, not

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:08:27] How you get not standardized tests. Ok, I got it. Yeah, because you're getting A's across the board, everywhere else. Ok, so you're basically come in here, you're getting the good news is you met that group early. Sure. So that's huge. Just freshman year, being able to know, OK, this is what I'm going for. That's a huge advantage. And it's funny because I mentor some kids now and the difference between the mentors that are like freshman or sophomore versus junior and senior to freshmen. I'm just like, Oh, you're already, you're already hitting the networking. They're already like practicing the financial modeling. They're doing everything they need to do. They just even from whatever non target it doesn't matter. They can really make huge inroads. So, OK, so I'm curious. That group, so you knew as soon as that, oh, it's really hard, you got to get really high GPA, you're like, OK, so you're motivated, you're doing well through your freshman year. But what are you doing in terms of like internship trying to network? What are you? Are you networking right away? Do you know the importance of that right away? Did that group teach you that stuff, or where are you learning all this stuff?

Jason: [00:09:29] Sure. So this group was really good. Yeah, a lot. So when I went to my freshman year, Rutgers wasn't really on the map for any of the banks, so we really had we had absolutely zero recruiting other than a few alumni are willing to selectively push kids to get like just an interview for a first round like Citi Investment Banking or Goldman Sachs sales and trading. So when I was a freshman, I knew the importance. But I think a lot of people fall into like this comfort zone. They're like, Oh, I'm young, I like to do it right now, or they get very nervous, like, I never did anything like that in my life, so I didn't take it too seriously until I think it was around February. I actually met someone I started. I did exactly what the group told me to call, email a bunch of travel managers and emailing as many people as I could actually emailed my uncle, who he actually worked in, like accounting. And he had a friend that was coming from China, who worked at pWt in China and had lunch with him. And I was talking to him about, Hey, I really want to do something in finance. And he was trying to trade me away. He was, oh, you should do something in accounting. You're like, I can give you like a two-week internship in China. If you want at TWC or three week internship, I was like, oh, really? He goes, Yeah, if you're if you're up for it, like, let me, let's talk next week and we can see what we can do. And I got very lucky. I got extremely lucky.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:10:55] So you went to China?

Jason: [00:10:57] Yeah, I worked at the pWt office in Juanjo, China, and I covered Chinese companies. I wanted to go IPO in Hong Kong and like in America as well, so I didn't do too much work. I was only there for a few weeks, but I did get a good landscape of what county was. And it was a great resume builder. Not too many kids had a top four big four accounting firm on their resume as a freshman.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:11:19] Yeah, that was huge, man. So then tell me how you leverage that to the following summer, because then you were you ended up at PNC, correct? Yes. Yes. So how did you leverage that? Like, how was that second one?

Jason: [00:11:30] So one good thing was that PNC actually recruited on campus for corporate banking. So I was trying to learn to do for other things like I actually ended up getting interviews at some board record banks for sophomore investment banking. But I honestly what's in my mind looking back at it, I wasn't polished and mature enough when I went through those interviews. If I was a good thing, that maybe was all a plan that I didn't get those that interim wise for my sophomore year. Yeah, but

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:11:58] Let's talk about that because I think that's really common. Why do you think you weren't mature enough or polished enough? Did you have the resources? Did you have the course or any of the other courses out there that helped you prep or had you looked at those at all?

Jason: [00:12:12] Look, I honestly did it, so I had as many resources I had as I could get. Of college to give you the full guide.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:12:20] Yeah, I read that you had done that. But did you were you doing like mock interviews and stuff with friends at all?

Jason: [00:12:25] We did, but I don't know. I think a lot of this comes with experience and just practicing, so I did do it with my friends.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:12:32] You need to do a lot of reps.

Jason: [00:12:33] No, I didn't do it with a professional, maybe. And that's kind of maybe the big difference. Someone that was really in the industry that really had that tone and really put that pressure on you because when you're when you're with your friends, you're a little more relaxed. They're not really giving like harsh criticism. So I think that's maybe the reason why it didn't work out as well for me when I was a sophomore. But looking back, I think it all worked out in the end.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:12:59] Tell me about like. More, we'll get to that later, actually. So tell me, so how did how did it come out on campus recruiting for PNC? It's a corporate bank and tell me what? What is that like? What are you doing when you're this is in jersey? Are you thinking, Hey, if I get this, so you strike out at a couple of Tebow's brackets like sophomore rotational programs? Totally normal. Most people do. They're super competitive. How did you land this, see when what why do you think you got that opportunity?

Jason: [00:13:28] So I was I think it's like it's a consequence of your school, too. So we had students that successfully went through that internship program and that offers back to go for the junior summer. I don't remember the top if anyone went back, but they want to continue recruiting on campus. So I think I went on an interview actually stayed up to date of what was going on in the markets. I had some basic idea of what the job entailed because I networked with those students who interned there. Yeah. So I believe I must have impressed the initial interviewer and I got the super date to go to Chicago, where they had the final rounds for all of the summer analysts for different division.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:14:13] Were you excited when they flew you out and all that stuff?

Jason: [00:14:15] Oh yeah, I thought I was like, Wow, this is insane, and I think anything like this would happen. That was a really good experience. I never been. I never went to Chicago and actually had a few friends who were interviewing that same time who were like a year above me. And we got pizza like Maties and Jerry Daniels and saw the bean before I knew you. So it was a really good experience.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:14:38] That's awesome. That's awesome. So you ended up interviewing at the Super Day there. Were you super nervous? Like, how are you prepping before? Should I think of it as like a traditional banking internship kind of interview? Where are they asking you, like, tell me about evaluation and all this good stuff? Or was it more fit?

Jason: [00:14:54] It was. It was. And then they asked you some basic questions like, what if you had one statement, which one would you want to keep of all the three financial statements? That's like the one I remember or like, what's to you? What's the most important line on the income statement? Like, what would you focus on? Were you ready for those? And I actually didn't prepare for them, but I kind of knew. I mean, I knew the answers somehow, and I was like, Oh, I remember from this class, this is important. So and I had a good explanation. I did have some of those guides, like the ball guys. I didn't have the Wall Street laces guide, so I wish I had that at the time.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:27] And man, you would have crush it and just kidding. It's fine. Don't worry about it. No worry. No. So like, so I'm just I was just curious because I wanted to know like the level like, was this your competitive or not? So I think that you were saying they made it, they were making a push kind of to keep the channel to Rutgers open. They like the kids they were getting from there.

Jason: [00:15:45] Sure. Absolutely.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:15:47] So tell me what that internship was like. So you go to you, fly to Chicago, you come back. Did they tell you right away, hey, you got the offer, huh?

Jason: [00:15:55] I think it was maybe a few weeks later and then they contacted us saying that we got the offer

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:00] And your site

Jason: [00:16:01] And it's very site. So, you know, it was a good, a great opportunity. And I think they kind of gave you a guide as to what locations you wanted. So I put New Jersey with New York as my top choice and then I think like Chicago and Pittsburgh after that and then ended up in the New Jersey office corporate office.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:16:23] Nice man. And so what was it like? I mean, you were there for only three months, but did you? It was more just like learning and just like watching kind of thing. And do they did? Did they give you a return offer to come back for junior year?

Jason: [00:16:35] Sure. So a lot of the work was really supporting the relationship managers. So the way from my experience in the corporate banking that I did, yeah, you're basically just the personal banker to a bunch of corporate companies who may like a certain level of revenue. So there's different levels of corporate banking. And I was just supporting their endeavours to maybe pitch a new client as to why to use PNC as their next relationship as a corporate banker or offering certain financial solutions and things like that. And then if a company needed some type of financing, they were underwriting out as an intern. I kind of shadowed the people that were underwriting it as well. So you kind of got a whole holistic view of the whole process that they did.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:17:19] That's cool. That's cool. That's a good that's a good exposure. So then going back, this is that was your sophomore summer. Yes. So now you're going back junior year. What's your thought process of like, OK, what am I going for now this next summer? Did they give you an offer to come back the following year?

Jason: [00:17:34] So they did give me an offer to come back, but I actually got my summer offer from my junior year during my summer at PNC.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:43] Yeah, so that was at Morgan Stanley. Yeah, I was at Morgan Stanley. So tell me about how that all went down because that's a that's a that's a big jump. Sure. Yeah.

Jason: [00:17:53] So it was during my sophomore term I had I had an offer. I mean, during my sophomore year, I had an offer. Yeah, and I think it was the second semester I remember. So I went back in my time again. It was a really bad time. I didn't think anyone at all would be in finance, let alone front office finance. And I went back to speak in my high school and one of my old teachers. She was like, hey, what are you doing right now? Like, What are you studying? That's why I'm in business school. I'm studying finance, and she goes, Oh, I have, so you should really talk to. He works at J.P. Morgan. You should give me. Give me. I'll give you his contact. I tell him, you're going to call him. So I said, OK, I emailed him and he and then work at Morgan Stanley, but I got confused. So then I was like, So I actually looked them up, and he was in sales and sales and trade at Morgan Stanley. I was like, Whoa, he's in front office at Morgan Stanley from my town is crazy. So I'm actually what's the office during like one of my days and

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:18:54] During this is sophomore year. Yeah, even before you had done the PNC internship. Yeah. So I see when you went into the office, this was spring semester.

Jason: [00:19:03] Yes. Yes, that's correct. And met him. He actually was a really nice guy. Awesome guy. I still talked to him to this day. He's a mentor, a close friend of mine now, and he kind of gave me a later line. And he also motivated me even more because I remember he had a stack of resumes on his desk and he said, Look at these resumes and tell them what you think he knows. How many schools do you see that are records? And I was like, none, because that's right. Like, look, MIT, Yale, Yale, Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, these are the kids are going up against. So I met with him. Like, I thought what he was doing was really interesting. And then he was actually really proactive. And he said, Hey, there's this workshop that you should apply for college sophomores and freshmen, juniors that you can maybe an internship go to this conference. So I applied, I got in and then I remember this very distinctly because

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:54] What was that? What was that conference or that thing

Jason: [00:19:57] Like early inside states? And I remember I had like a big midterm that day and remember like I'm thinking, I need a good GPA to get these jobs. So I told them, Hey, this early season is. Where I have to take this really tough exam, I might have to skip the what do you think he goes, Listen. He called, I'm texting him. This he calls me, was Jason, what are you doing right now? I said, just studying. Stop saying, you're going to go to this conference or this early inside stay because if you don't, you're not going to get a job here. I'm telling you this is a great opportunity. And I said, Oh, I can try still, you know, network. He goes, No, you're skipping the exam. I'm going to I can write a letter for your teacher. You're going to go to this conference, I said. All right. Let's go, and I ended up going and because of the conference, you got the opportunity to basically apply for different divisions. And I networked on a bunch of people and then they had accelerated interview processes during the summer of my sophomore year. I actually interviewed while I was interning and luckily got an offer and fixed income sales and trading division at more than me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:21:07] So like, if you hadn't been pushed by that mentor, basically you wouldn't be where you are today.

Jason: [00:21:13] Probably. I mean, I he definitely changed my perspective on a lot of things, and he definitely gave me that push to go to that thing because I think if he wasn't there, I might have said, Oh

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:21:26] Yeah, you got to focus on the example. So tell me a little bit about what that interview process was like that summer. When was it in the summer, like late near the end of your internship? Or was it pretty early? This is back in

Jason: [00:21:37] 14 to 14. So this was this was 20. Twenty thirteen, it was my mistake when I was entering my sophomore year at PNC.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:21:49] Got it. Thirteen You're right, OK? So what was it like you went in there first off when you started getting when you got the invite for the interview where you like, Oh my gosh, I'm nervous or and how do you how did you prep for like a sales and trading interview?

Jason: [00:22:03] Yeah, sure. So when I got the interview, I first honestly called him and he's like, super pumped, he's like, This is great. I've never gotten a kid from Union City to get an interview with any of my friends at all. So this is great. And Rutgers actually had a mentorship program for. Professionals who wanted to help out students at the school, so my mentor, coincidentally, he used to be in sales and trading. He was a consultant at Blackstone because he was the head of trading at HSBC in the day. So he kind of gave me a lot of advice when I was going through the interview process and my mentor, the one who worked at Morgan Stanley, kind of framed on how to basically best approach interviewing when you're interviewing with traders. And we were salespeople, their research people. So I think that helped a lot.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:22:52] And what was his main what was that main piece of advice just for the listeners here?

Jason: [00:22:56] Yeah, sure. So he kind of told me that, you know, salespeople, they're really conversational. You have to be very personable, so try to be as personable as you could be traders and they really want to sink the answers they want. They want. They're very straight to the point. So kind of keep your answers like very concise and then research, he said his answer was, I don't know. They're just very, very smart, very analytical. So you might get asked the hardest questions from them. So be careful and just really be thoughtful about your answers. Did you feel like when that interview

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:23:28] That stress you out more than it helped you or did you? Because like to me, it's almost like, Oh great, OK, be super personable with these people will be like ready for hard questions. I mean, I guess it helps because you can kind of see it coming, right?

Jason: [00:23:41] Yeah. So when I was a kid, I did jujitsu and kickboxing. So in my mind, it kind of framed, OK, this is like the type of opponent or the task at hand. I know, like if I go, if I read my list, I said, Okay, this guy's a traitor. Maybe I have to adjust the way I talk and the way I'm answering his questions. But it was helpful regardless. It was very, very helpful.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:24:03] And so were they giving you like brain teasers and like the traders can be like Matt complex math problems to do in your head?

Jason: [00:24:08] Yeah. So I definitely got some really tough brain teasers. I actually got some really tough questions from the best travel, the research person. So my mentor was right. He or she would ask me questions. Even if I got it right, she'd be like, Are you sure that's right? And I pause and look at me like, I was wrong. Yeah, I'll look at her. I was like, I'll say, I know him right? Yeah, that's right. And then she was positive and gave you like a really? Okay, they're really trying to trip you up. But I was like, Wow, this is really crazy.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:41] Yeah, that is stress. That's stressful, man. Well, good for you for kind of just being confident. So you do you feel like when did you hear so like, right, when you walked out? Did they call you or was it another week or so before you heard?

Jason: [00:24:55] I think it was maybe a week or I think it was about a week when I heard back and my mentor was actually the one that called me. So he called me his name. Actually got some good news for you. It's like they're going to give you an offer, so you're going to accept it, right? And I said, yeah, he goes, OK, well, I'm going to tell you, are you going to accept it? And he goes, Congrats, man. Good job. And that's awesome. Yeah, it was awesome. I definitely. But however, I did like when I was going through that whole process. I definitely did think you can take this if I get this because there's a whole summer out of me. I had a good experience, but because I had all the people telling me, don't use it, take something else. But I really I really value connections and relationships. So I knew like, this is a good opportunity, a great firm. I did like the offerings that they had as what I can do full time, so that was like a great fit for my next step.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:25:54] It's awesome. All right. So that was a real big win. You're super psyched. You get the offer, you don't leverage it, you value the connection and tell me a little bit about. Kind of that, so you still had to go through and see me finish up and see you go back into your now it's your junior year.

Jason: [00:26:13] Yes, my junior.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:26:14] And is it kind of like stressful because you're trying to still keep the grades up or what was it like through that junior year?

Jason: [00:26:22] I think it was definitely less stressful because I was interviewing and it had to go through any crazy networking. But the next step was kind of figuring out what the lay of the land was when I would go internship and then who I can now with the probably best positioned myself for the roles I wanted.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:26:40] Did you did you keep it networking through your junior year before the internship?

Jason: [00:26:45] I was, but I think but. The networking I was doing, my junior was definitely more focused, I was trying to get as many Morgan Stanley people as I could. Yeah, and I also joined a few career development networks Immelt and CEO, which are great programs. If anyone consistently wants to be professional development, if you're a diverse candidate, it's an amazing program that helped me throughout my college career and wasn't allowed to work do that as well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:14] Yeah, we're working with CEO right now. We're prepping a lot of their kids for private equity recruiting. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, we're a lot of kids are coming through our mentor network for recruiting right now, which is awesome. I love the fact that they're investing in that specifically because I feel like it has the highest. It's basically getting professional private equity people to like, give them mock interviews, give them feedback, do it again, do it again, do it again. So I think these kids are going to be like just improving so much between like the first time they do it to like the third or fourth time. So, OK, so you're kind of like getting through your junior year trying to network a little bit with Morgan Stanley people. You get onto the desk and they tell you, hey, you're doing clo structuring right away or what was the what was, I guess, fixed in there like you're in fixed income? Tell me, what were you like, what is that like, what am I doing? Can you give a little primer to the listeners in terms of like what you were actually doing day to day as an intern in that church?

Jason: [00:28:11] So the way the process works, you kind of have like speed dating around a few like a week before we would actually go on the desk. So you would meet all the different groups and know every day how each group had their kind of their pitch on why their group was the best and maybe why you should want to put them as your number one pick. So I put so at the time, like the hot desk, it was securitization, corporate credit. And I think also like treasuries in the interest rate desks, they were really hot, so networked and kind of met a few people on the CLO structuring desk, the trading desks and securitized products and stuff. And Morgan Stanley. I don't know how it works right now, but I assume it's probably very similar. You applied just for the entire group, so you could be on CMBS, close abs, the whole nine yards. And I got places to see a little structuring, which is basically where a lot of these asset managers sold the Blackstone's the the credentials of the world. They have these CLO funds. And in order for them to create a CLO, they have to go to an investment bank like a Morgan Stanley JP Morgan City to help them structure it. So you're basically there. See a little banker and you're helping them create a lot of poor loans of a pool of loans, and you securitize them into different debt and equity, and then the bank is helping sell those loans out in the secondary market or the primary market. So then you can have a. What conceal a portfolio where you have investors from different parts of the capital stack and it matures later on would get in 10 years or seven years?

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:29:56] Got it. So you're helping them basically structure these CLO portfolios, get them up and get them sold either primary the secondary markets.

Jason: [00:30:06] You were advising them as to the type of portfolio they could have to best optimize rating agencies so they want a certain level of h would say, OK, you need to do X, Y and Z to your portfolio, right? You can meet these metrics. And then it would also advise them as to what loans maybe to have or to take out because investors are asking questions about a bad loan. That's, you know, they're asking questions of why are they so concentrated in oil and gas industry so they may make adjustments based off, you know, what we're seeing in the market and also what rating agencies are telling us when we're working with them?

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:30:41] What was the hardest thing when you first started as an intern there, like just learning the lingo or what was the biggest challenge you think coming in as an analyst?

Jason: [00:30:49] I think. The biggest challenge is definitely learning the lingo, but it's kind of like being comfortable there because you really you're not really giving like a quote unquote game plan as to how to impress anyone or how to. There's no set being on like, OK, like if you're internal, you have to do this, you have to do that. It's not like school where you have homework, you kind of have to aggressively push for things you want. It's also different from my peers and friends that did invest in banking internships because there are deals there on assignments when you're in sales and training, just like shadowing people, meaning people on different desks. And it's like asking a lot of questions and you're not really always giving concrete projects.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:31:30] Yeah, it's interesting because that's a good point. Like school, you have homework, investment banking, internships, you're on deals and they're basically telling you, go do this or do that, do this research or spread these books, spread these comps or whatever sales and trading. You're really just shadowing a lot, right? And just trying to be helpful any way you can like, Hey, let me get your coffee, let me get you whatever. And just trying to make yourself useful while absorbing some of the stuff. So did you have a certain thing you use like a set of questions you would like? Write down questions and then ask them at a certain time, like any sort of strategies you use that other interns can use that are going on to

Jason: [00:32:02] Say, Yeah, sure. So my situation is so more exciting. So I did. That was my first rotation for the first, I think four and a half weeks I did several structuring and then the next four and a half weeks, I did leverage loan trading, but my first rotation was still structuring. It was a little unique because it was a little more project based because you were you were a c, a little banker, so you had deals that you were working on because you want to bring to the market. But it was definitely difficult because the way I was told was, even if I do really want my desk, the whole division in many ways need to kind of like give you a thumbs up if you want to get off your back to the group or to the division in general. So I still had to do all these project based work. But then at the same time, shadow traders and salespeople know about their product, and at the time when I was entering, the school market was pretty hot. So they were really, really busy and they needed a lot of support. So I was doing a lot of the grunt work

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:33:00] Over the hours like that summer.

Jason: [00:33:04] For me, it was rough and I think it also was a consequence of like, I just wanted to work hard and like, really impress people. So I really don't know like what my hours are supposed to be, but I went in every day around like six thirty seven and I left like 11 12 every day Friday.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:19] You work in like six to 18 hour days or something or.

Jason: [00:33:23] Yeah, it was rough because I would go shadow people from the trading desk because you also had to. I forgot to mention this. Your second rotation wasn't set, so you got to kind of network through your second rotation as well throughout the entire process. So you had to not only impress your desk at work, come up with things that you can show that you're adding value network with people in your division, but at the same time network of other groups. So you can possibly have a seat on their desk for your second rotation if you're interested in them.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:33:57] That's awesome. So when did you know you had the return office or you're working your butt off, which is great, you're at least impressing on that side? Did you feel like you're adding at least some value because they were so busy?

Jason: [00:34:09] Yeah, I mean, I got really good feedback and I did a bunch of projects for them. I made up some things that I thought could be useful. So I definitely knew I was adding value for sure. So I thought at least my first rotation, I was doing very well and I knew I was also doing very well because when I kind of told my director what I want to do for my next rotation, they asked me, What do you want to do? I said, I want to do something in corporate credit. I want to go into high yield or leverage loans, and he doesn't talk to these guys are putting a good word for you. And it helped me when I ended up getting that second rotation on the leverage front desk

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:34:46] And any specific reason why you wanted that. That one, was it just a good product, a good technical product? A lot of activity there as well?

Jason: [00:34:54] Yeah, sure. So I thought it was it was related to my group, so I thought it would be easy push if I was doing well. Secondly, I was always interested in learning more about companies, and I was interested in like high yield debt or the corporate side. So compared to like Muniz rates effects, I thought it was a better fit for me. Cool. Ok.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:35:17] So you kind of get to the end of the internship. You're exhausted. When do you know, like, Hey, I got a full time offer or did you not get one?

Jason: [00:35:27] You did. So I kind of got. I think so. I don't know how it works anymore, but you kind of like, have a good idea that you're getting a an offer when you're a network of everyone saying, like maybe the last like last week or two or week and a half. Yeah, I meant obviously some. Hey, like just like you visit the desk that you're on, like, tell whatever. That's at some point that. If you were to get a full time offer that you wanted to go back there. So I actually want to go back to the loan desk, but it didn't have space for me at the time. It sounded like I was going to get off from them like, you want to come back here, like, tell me now. And I said, Yes, I want to come back here. And then it ended up working out, they ended up saying they had them not having space, but they said, I guess I did so well in my internship in general and on my prior desk, they said we have space on the silo structure. That's it would love to bring you back when you still accept the offer. And I said, Yes, absolutely. And I found out the last day and was really excited. Put a whole lot of weight off my shoulders.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:36:35] Yeah, man. Going into senior year, it's got to feel good with the offer.

Jason: [00:36:39] Listeners here that have

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:36:41] Had that feeling so awesome. And so you're kind of going through that you started and you're there for a couple of years. Is it just more kind of a similar extension of what you did over the internship, just taking on more responsibility, helping them get close, structuring in those those portfolios to market that type of stuff? Or what was the how did it evolve, I guess, over the two years that you were there?

Jason: [00:37:04] Yeah, it definitely was all that kind of like what I was getting into when I was going there.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:37:09] The people were your hours, like really where your hours still long because they were they were doing a lot of business.

Jason: [00:37:15] So the team got bigger, so there was more support. So it wasn't just like crazy, like myself. I'm doing everything. So my hours were still pretty bad. We weren't close. They weren't how they were when I was interning. Also, I think when you're interning, you're working extra, extra hard because you're doing a bunch of other things unrelated to your job. Yeah, you work a little bit more. You're turning to maybe your course, you're having a

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:37:40] Network, you're having to come in early, make sure you're there early, make sure you're there late. So yeah, so you did all you had to do to get the offer. You kind of start in the silo, you're in the silo structure just for a couple of years. And then did you feel like by the end of that time? Tell me kind of how your thought process was in terms of what you wanted to do next, whether it was stage sales and trading, stay in structuring or like what your thought process was? Did you have a mentor guiding you saying, Hey, you should try to go to this other type of stuff? Or how do you end up kind of making that jump over to over to City?

Jason: [00:38:13] Yeah, sure. So I kind of like didn't want to. I think I realized why I'm like end of my first year, like halfway into my second year, that the career trajectory of this was very specific and very siloed, which is great. If that's what you want to do. You want to be a banker or you want to want to go work in the business. I work for a closed shop. This is the best way to do it and probably the only way to do it. But I feel like I wasn't really sure if I want to do that. And I knew if I want some diversity, I need to get out a career now. If you do that type of optionality and the only one I really knew I was really consulting or investment banking. So because I had a lot of friends who did invest in banking and then as soon as they wanted to go recruit, they were getting hit up in, meaning from so many opportunities in corporate finance. Hedge funds, private equity funds, just or startups just because they had investment banking on the resume. Yeah, when I was looking to make a switch in something else, I really ran into roadblocks every single time because I had no investment bank. No, I didn't have like corporate credit or corporate finance experience on my resume, and I kind of thought it would be getting like the Morgan Stanley name would just carry me on to anything I did. But I realized I wasn't necessarily always the case. It did help me a lot.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:39:34] So this is why I tell kids if you have an offer from like Goldman, but it's in a division like that. You don't want to be long term or like a trading division or like prime brokerage, which is not really investment banking or whatever. It's not necessarily better than taking Middle Market Bank in front office bank with like M&A. Hmm. Right. Yeah. So like, sometimes it's better to take the less prestigious brand name, but it's very kind of targeted to what you want to do long term. That's going to give you a lot more optionality. So sometimes kids fall into that, especially kids who like, don't really they're not really sure about that optionality when they first start their career, and they're just excited to get that that high paying job right out. And like you said, a year in two years into like, Oh shit, like I actually, this is actually limiting me. So tell me how you overcame that because you said you were running into roadblocks. How did you kind of angle yourself to get that banking offer? I assume you had to start over as like an analyst, like a first year analyst somewhere.

Jason: [00:40:28] I started off as a second year, so I kind of love that, but I basically was. So I just I never worked a lot. I have friends. I were at city and kind of network my way to an open position. I was having to be hired for, like analysts and analysts. And the way I positioned myself was, yes, I didn't do any investment banking, but I did look at corporates when I was structuring the close and I did have full time because of school. My desk would ask me, hey, like, you look more into this loan? Like, tell me what? Give me a short summary of what's going on. So I didn't have that experience and was. Nation, right, whales are interested very succinctly why I want to make the switch from what I was doing to why I want to go to investment banking, particularly in restructuring, financing or medicine. And I'm kind of lucky that my job was in the sphere of literature and ads and see all those things. We are the biggest buyer in the left in space, so it was easier to pitch than if I was doing something else.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:41:32] Probably, yeah. If you were in like trading, probably a lot harder, you could at least make the link to let fans, sponsors, whatever. So tell me about restructuring, financing. What is that? So is it? Is it for company when I hear restructuring, I think distressed or distressed where you guys are doing like dip loan, you know, debtor in possession financing, that type of stuff?

Jason: [00:41:52] Yeah. So fortunately, unfortunately, there wasn't a whole lot of distressed when I was on the desk. So they did have something. They were

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:42:02] Still there. You'd be drowning right now. Oh yeah, yeah. In twenty. Yeah, you, you stopped in 2019 there. So tell me. Yeah, so but restructuring financing is am I thinking of it properly? Like, you guys are providing distressed loans?

Jason: [00:42:15] Basically, yeah, loans do bridge financing just kind of like unique, esoteric loans. We also get bales and then traditional term loans. So it really was like a case by case basis, but the main, I guess, driver or the ones the deals that made the most revenue were those debt financing, correct?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:35] Yeah. The ones the most distressed, right? Because you can charge the highest interest and put in warrants or whatever you guys wanted to do to take that risk. Ok, so that makes sense. You're there for you're going to have to do learn a lot. Or was it like, again, six months super high pressure or steep learning curve? About culturally? Was it like super hard, like the switch and everything?

Jason: [00:42:55] So it definitely was very intense. But the culture was great. The people there are really great. I definitely enjoyed my time a lot. Yeah, but I actually started thinking about going to making my next step after my first year because I had a lot of friends that made the switch. And they kind of said, like, wants to become an associate. You kind of get more ingrained in the group and then you kind of run that track. So it's in my eyes. I love if there's a good time to like grab like my second year going into my second year in the investment banking program. So that's why you have

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:32] Your eyes on bay side for a while before, like even when you're back at Morgan Stanley, did you feel like, Hey, that's where I want to end up? Or was it something where like once you were at once, you once you were at Citi and banking, you thought, now is my what's this private equity thing? Or What's this buy side thing?

Jason: [00:43:49] Mm hmm. Yeah. So I thought that was definitely something that I always aspired to do. And being on the sales and trade that's especially you're always doing things for these bikes like they they're basically your boss when it comes to all the work you're doing, they're telling you, I was looking for this for the trader to say, I'm looking for these bonds and try to sell these bonds and everyone. So we spoke so highly of all these firms. So it seems like especially everyone, when they made this next step, they always went to a bike shop and they're always really excited. But also, I feel like mostly hedge funds.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:24] All right, like in terms of CLO, like, are you dealing mostly with the hedge fund clients or their PE firms as well?

Jason: [00:44:29] I guess some people went to PE firms because I guess so. Yeah, I guess you could. They have like a hedge fund part, but if you're a of structure, they'll become a manager of that of that group. So they'll be like the CLO portfolio manager.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:45] Ok, so you're there about a year after the first year in banking, you're kind of thinking. And so like, we're structuring financing, I can think of it almost like as I think of it, as like the love thing group or like a subgroup of that. Or it wasn't super busy because it was 17 to 19. There's not as much stress as there obviously is now, and you're basically ours are probably still 70 plus, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, just it's still banking. Ok, so you're working hard, but you're thinking, okay, now maybe is a good time to start looking. How did you do that? Did you reach out to recruiters? Did you just keep networking to try and find open roles?

Jason: [00:45:23] How did that whole thing go down? Sure. So we reached out to people on my network and surprisingly, and I ended up working out a lot more receptive now like, Oh, OK, now you're doing investment banking. Nice to put you in touch with these roles and was getting some interviews also thought about going on the corporate route, something that I didn't have to myself when I was in sales and trading and was also interviewing for like corporate strategy, Strategic Finance Corp, Dev and all that as well. So those are the kind of roles like those are two like areas that kind of want to make the move to next. Yeah. And ended up getting like five rounds in to buy side firms and then one like. You decline as well as well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:12] Tell me, what were those what were those like in terms of specific interviews where they really tough, where they did in terms of the buy side ones? Or was it mostly like private equity funds, family offices, only family offices like? I'd love to hear how the recruiters placed you into those or why they placed you into certain roles.

Jason: [00:46:32] Oh, sure. So I think the only one that was recruiter was one of the big firms I interviewed with their credit strategy role. So those sort of things, they were really going in on my experience and what I learned and kind of like, they only really grilled me too much on technical. They were asking things here and there, and probably my views of the market. And then my views as why I want to be on the investing side, why I want to get the buy side, then they'll give you,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:04] Where are you ready for that?

Jason: [00:47:05] Yeah, I was I was I was actually prepping a line, I was kind of going through the work. I did well over the deal, so I didn't like those numbers in my head. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:15] And did somebody tell you or guide you to do that stuff? How did you know to be ready for that? You just assumed like, they're going to grill me on this?

Jason: [00:47:22] Sure. So I lost friends and colleagues, and this might not work that they

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:27] Gave you the heads up.

Jason: [00:47:28] Yeah, heads up. And Town was ready, but there's something that just can't be ready for. So, but at least for those two parts, I got one of them. I mean, once again for both and got offers. And after, I guess a few rounds was like in-person interviews and this like meeting the group. They give you a case study and you kind of have to put your best foot forward to do a presentation. And I ended up just like submitting it. And then they kind of give you feedback. Hey, we really liked it and then gave me an offer. Then for the corporate route, they asked, like, why do you want to do corporate strategy? Why do you want to work in strategic finance? Why this company and then they gave them two of them gave me modeling test, and then I also got offers from there as well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:15] The corporate strategy modeling test, what was that like? What do you mean? Like three statement financial stuff projections or debt?

Jason: [00:48:22] Yeah, actually, there's a pretty hard because they gave you a time for one and they said, Oh, there's a situation model out these fake this. This from within, I think it was like an hour. And you have to read this whole product, you have to quickly kind of like put the three statements together and then ask me questions like, Oh, I don't remember what time I had the last week or so. What like, what would you do to solve the cash flow deficit? Like where? Where do you see improvements or something like that? So now you have to make sure you did it right. You had to be able to answer these questions in a short period of time. You check it

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:55] Was really an operating model, a revenue bill and stuff like that. So you're able as a strategic fine that you're really trying to look at the numbers and be able to point out irregularities or things were areas of improvement, basically.

Jason: [00:49:06] Yeah, exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:08] Cool. Ok, so you ended up taking a job with family office and tell me what's how is it different from banking? You know, you're doing everything from credit to real estate to alternatives, V.S., which is pretty cool. You're getting to see a lot of different asset classes. Tell me what that's been like, and you've been there almost a couple of years now or at least a year and a half, and it's been a little bit crazy, probably the last four months, a little different, but but tell me, yeah, what do you what are you seeing in terms of like, what's the job like versus banking?

Jason: [00:49:40] So now I'm on the investing side, so it's like a totally different hat. We're kind of looking at the opportunity sets of where we want to allocate the family's money so they already have existing investments in certain things. So whether we want to divest ourselves and also or like diversify, it's really complex. And it's really somewhat intense too, because you have one client and they're very on top of their game and you really have to try to work with them to kind of find their solutions at the end of the day. They make the decision, yes or no, if they want to do certain things, of course, like the investment team, they hire them and they create this and they don't have to do that. But at least the structure that we have, they're very involved in all the the entire process of

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:25] Decision making and stuff like that. So you guys are doing all the work. So how many in terms you have like a principal that's working above you or a couple of principals and you're doing a lot of like putting together an investment committee memos, is that is that fair?

Jason: [00:50:38] Yeah, that's correct.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:40] It's pretty standard, like a typical by side fund. And so are you. Is that mandated like the deals that are coming in are like some of them from like banks and just personal connection stuff like that. And just like you guys are just flooding with opportunities all the time or is it like you guys are? I'm just curious. Like, is the hour or the hours better than bank? I had hope.

Jason: [00:51:00] So yeah, the hours are definitely easily. Recently, during the whole COVID crisis, they got pretty bad and got really intense. Yeah, they're really just trying to figure out what to do and really trying to navigate the whole environment.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:17] Yeah, especially with real estate, if they have commercial real estate,

Jason: [00:51:19] I'm sure it's crazy or

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:21] Even residential with a lot of people not being able to pay. So. Any thoughts before we call it any kind of advice you'd give to the younger listeners in terms of like just looking back at your path or things you wish you had done or things that would have helped or anything like that in terms of what to do?

Jason: [00:51:42] Yeah, sure. So I think like the main thing is that you really kind of have to. Really true, we figure out what you want to do and just don't go for the shiny things because it's daylight. Don't just take any role because it's front office, they really make sure you. You know what you're getting yourself into and then knowing that you want to do what you want to do because it's like it's easy for people to say, Oh, it's only two years of your life, a year of your life to do something that you don't like and you don't want to do those two years. In my opinion, they are really rough locks. You can handle it like you just can't drive through that entire time. So if you could, right, you could do a lot of self-reflection and make sure you know what you want to make sure it's the best of your knowledge. You have a good sense of what you want to do because you'll make your life way easier and it'll get you to the end point probably much quicker than if you're just jumping through a bunch of different things and happens.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:36] Yeah. So some self-reflection in terms of what you actually enjoy doing, which is it's tough coming out of school because you have had a few interests, you had a few internships. It's not like, you know, everything you just been. You may be a few mentors, some friends that are a little older than you, maybe guiding you a little bit. But and I almost feel like so many people are like by side by side by side. Now that there's like it's almost everyone so obsessed with getting into like private equity or family office or hedge fund that it's maybe less so hedge fund now, but because it's been struggling, but it's almost like skewed so far to that direction. I almost say, like, maybe there's a opportunities in banking, outsized opportunities in banking to get promoted super fast,

Jason: [00:53:17] Something more stable. And I mean, the banks have been doing very well and there's fee on the baseline. So a lot of these firms, a lot of that have been actually converting into family offices because, yeah, at least like prior to COVID, a lot of these distress opportunity sets were like very high yielding strategies they weren't doing as well as maybe they could have been. And then even through COVID, it wiped out a lot of really levered firms. And then the opportunities had shrunk so quickly because the Fed came in just basically, you know, stabilized the entire market. So, yeah, but yeah, it

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:52] Wasn't a big window there, for sure.

Jason: [00:53:55] So I think a bank like the investment banks in general, there's definitely a great opportunity there because especially in the current environment, because they're doing well. And I mean, they're pretty well capitalized and a lot of the best on the sales and trading side. They did very, very well during the whole COVID crisis,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:10] So it seemed to have all worked out for you. Do you do at all? Look back to like the CLO at the time, as in the CLO and think to yourself, Wow, I almost got stuck doing something really niche? Or do you feel like it was still a great name to have on your resume is still worth it because it got you kind of just at least on the track on a track.

Jason: [00:54:29] So I think it definitely still helps me because it was a great name. It definitely helped me get that role at Citigroup. And then even in my current role, one of the PMC, did you work in CMBS? So he respected the securitization role of like close. So you knew how intense it was. And I know that group they kind of give you, like, automatically stamped that you like. You're pretty smart or that you can work a really complex situation because clothes are viewed as very, very complex. Yeah. So it definitely helps. Sometimes in other times, like the

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:03] Recruiter is probably like it didn't help with the recruiters, but it help with people who understood the group.

Jason: [00:55:07] Yeah, the recruiters were like automatically, Oh, you want just to close because they want to make their lives easier?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:14] Exactly. Yeah, they're not going to. They're not going to put in the mental. They don't have the kind of nuance around what groups are best or more technical or not. So it's tougher. Sure, that's not blaming them. It's tough, even. I don't know. You know, from my seeing, you know, having talked to hundreds of people and sales and trading and banking, even I sometimes struggle to keep it all straight. But yeah, thanks so much for sharing your story, for giving all this great advice to the listeners, and let's stay in touch.

Jason: [00:55:46] Absolutely. Thanks so much, Patrick. Really enjoyed talking with you. Thanks, man,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:49] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis dot com. And till next time.

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