WSO podcast | E157: Point72's Head of Investment Professional Development Shares Her Path - Jaimi Goodfriend

 

About

In this episode, Jaimi Goodfriend, Head of Point72's Investment Professional Development and director of the Point72 Academy shares her winding path through Wall Street. From starting in M&A when she graduated from Michigan in 1997 to her jump to equity research a few years later, we learn the main reason she decided to pursue a career in finance and how she eventually ended up as a hedge fund analyst working for some of the most successful funds in the world including Balyasny and Citadel. Find out why after 3 years on the buyside she decided to take a massive pay cut and give it all up to become a professor at the University of Illinois and what drew her to Point72. Finally, in the last part of the pod, we discuss the Point72 Academy, what they look for in undergraduate hires and young professionals, the future of the industry as well as the odds of actually breaking in.

 

Or Listen to the Podcast Here:

Apple Podcasts
Spotify  
Stitcher 

 

Resources:

WSO Courses

WSO Resume Review

WSO Mentors

 

WSO Podcast (Episode 156) Transcript:

 

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into

different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, ConsumerInvestor

her path from a non-target school to breaking into the equity research group at a bulge bracket bank. We learn how she landed a key sophomore summer internship, why she was so attracted to equity research, how she eventually made the transition to another bulge bracket bank in order to get into investment banking. Listen to hear how COVID changed everything. What she did with her promotion to associate and what main tool she used to help her navigate the private equity recruiting process. Ok. Consumer investor, thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:01:04] Thanks, Patrick. Appreciate your time. Excited to be here.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:08] Likewise, so if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio, that'd be a great place to start.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:01:13] Sure. So I went to a non-target school, studied finance my junior year. I had an internship at an equity research, joined there full time covering the retail space. After two years working there, I moved over to a different bank in the investment banking group, covering similar sector. I got promoted from analyst to associate after about a year and a half and then made the move over to middle market private equity firm focused also in the consumer space. Great. So from non-target to

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:56] Bolt bracket equity research to bulge bracket investment banking to PE, it's kind of the summary. So let's start all the way back kind of in undergrad or how did you build up towards that summer internship and equity research? You were a finance major. So was finance always on the horizon for you?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:02:13] Yeah, definitely. So I guess it makes sense to back up just a little bit. So I was thinking about where I wanted to go to college. I kind of always knew I wanted to do something in business or finance from pretty early age. I actually

started investing in the stock market when I was 13 for my birthday. My grandpa had given me some money and I went to the mall and I saw what stores were busy. So at the time, everyone was wearing UGG boots and buying their first iPhone. So those are the stocks that I invested in. So it kind of caught that bug kind of early. But from there I knew I was

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:55] Publicly traded back.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:02:56] There was owned by Dekker. Got it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:59] Ok, cool. And then obviously a great buy if you held on to it. Yeah, but it was it was fun for me, but there was definitely not a lot of

ConsumerInvestor: [00:03:11] Technical analysis behind my investment thesis. So I, you know, when I think about where I want to go to college, I wanted to pursue something in finance and business, but also really wanted something that was entrepreneurial and very social and helped me grow on that aspect. So where I went to school had a finance major and also an entrepreneurial minor, which was a lot of fun for me. I was definitely able to combine all my all my passions and through on campus recruiting my sophomore year, I actually got an internship at a at a large health care company in their corporate finance kind of rotational program. It was a junior year internship, but it's kind of able to really present a good story of why I was a good fit for me and my passion In health care at the time, and I think that was my first really good experience in the professional world. How did you get into that?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:12] How did you convince them to take you now? Where are you? Where are you? Was it kind of like you networked? And then they made an exception to interview you? Or was it more of you just dropped your resume anyways, even though it's a juniors only?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:04:24] Yeah. So it was a little bit of a combination of both. So it was for juniors only. But at my my school had a finance forum for women and the hiring manager was there. She was an alum of my school and I met her. Didn't make a super strong connection or anything. But when I knew she would be interviewing me, you know, I did my homework pretty, pretty, pretty well. And I found out some deals that she had worked on and projects she was involved in and was able to just really have a great connection with my hiring manager. And she was at the end of the day, you know, the boys at the table. Then we got hired her with that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:05] Was that before the interview or was that kind of like you had made the connection before or that was after you had been granted an interview?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:05:11] Yeah, no. So I had met her before the interview and then when I found out she was interviewing me,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:17] How did you meet her before the interview?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:05:19] How did you know it was like an alarm forum at on campus? You know, just a ton of Women studying finance, networking with each other?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:30] Cool. Ok, so that was that was good. But why were there other kind of sophomores trying to do the same thing as you?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:05:37] Um, so my I feel like my school is very accounting focused, and while I had taken accounting courses, I knew it was not for me I wanted to do. I always wanted to do something, you know, more strategic and business oriented. And frankly, I wasn't getting A's in accounting, so I feel like a lot of my peers in classes around sophomore year. You do have to choose your specific major within the business school. So a lot of my peers had already taken internships that big for accounting firms, whereas I knew that path was not for me and I was exploring more corporate finance

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:15] Roles. So you didn't even have a four point oh, from an on target, you had a three six. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And what was

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:23] That around mid three like? It was only your sophomore year, so you only have like three semesters, but where you're like mid threes? Yeah, I would say it was like

ConsumerInvestor: [00:06:30] Getting b pluses and minuses, but definitely did not really excel in college courses until my junior and senior year when I was only taking finance classes and when I like became obsessed almost with finance.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:47] So then you're like Wall Street Oasis. Every day, all day. Just get. Oh yeah, so OK. So you're basically coming up. You make a good connection before the interview. That's a huge help. How many how many people do you think were applying to this role? And then how many interviews do you think they did? And then how many did they take? Like, what was the conversion for you? Yeah, I mean, I would say I well,

ConsumerInvestor: [00:07:07] I know I was the only sophomore in the program amongst within my small group, within corporate finance. And then there were there were there was one other junior who was selected from my school within the program as well. So it was it was a pretty small group that they took. And you know, if I if I had to guess at least one hundred people applied, maybe there were 20 on this super day and then kind of had a final round after that. It would think maybe

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:42] From your school or from like from all the school, if you mean, yeah, from my school, from your school. Wow. Yeah, OK. And so then you're. You get selected. What do you think, said your part in that kind of very rigorous, I mean, were people kind of in the interview once you got in the first round where they'd be like, Why are you even here? You're a sophomore. Did anybody ask that or were you able to?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:08:02] Yeah, I mean, I think I was I it really came down to two things one. Just doing my homework on who was interviewing me and making a really good connection during the interview process with my soon to be hiring manager. I think she I was able to figure out exactly what projects she was on, just through my investigating skills on the website, on online and through their website. And I was able to just really convey also my passion for the group he was in within this large health care company and really just talk through the industry almost. And I think that theme has also carried throughout later in my career as well. So almost less about the technical or anything like that and more just about conveying passion and connecting really, really well with your hiring manager. So you talk about

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:57] Doing research prior to the interviews and stuff like that. So obviously you look them up on LinkedIn. This LinkedIn was getting big at that at that point. Or is that what you did? Or then obviously you were looking on the website, the company website and trying to figure out other stuff out. But was it a it said corporate finance or were they doing any acquisitions? Was it just more like internal finance type stuff

ConsumerInvestor: [00:09:17] Or? Yeah, yeah, there were. It was more growth Oriented projects within the firm. And so I was able to kind of figure out what team she was on and who her boss would have been. And then I found, you know, news articles that her boss was quoted in about specific projects. They were working on a new initiatives and partnerships and kind of back track that and was able to see maybe other people she was connected with on linkedin, who might have been also quoted in these articles. So a lot of creative research here. But now,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:52] Once you had that information, how did you not seem like you're forcing it in the interview? Just like, was it just like, did you leave it to the end when they were saying, like, do you have any questions for me just to show that you knew what they were up to?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:10:06] I think I weaved it in pretty early, and in terms of, you know, why do you want this role and just went kind of straight into my passion for health care and maybe lightly touched some of the projects I knew she was on? And then we kind of I was able to really guide our in the interview, in the conversation from there.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:26] So were they impressed with that, do you think?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:10:29] Yeah, I think I think that definitely set me apart. And I mean, ultimately, she was she was my mentor and my champion throughout my Internship.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:41] So you do that internship, you get something really great on the resume because you're doing a bunch of like financial models, which is very relevant to your future into your junior year internship, which ended up at a bulge bracket, correct? Yeah. So tell me how you how you landed that because coming from non-target, yeah, you get a good financial analyst role, but it's still not. I mean, you see you see kids at target

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:03] Schools like sophomore, you're getting into investment banking. Right. So you're still it's not as if it's a sure thing, right? So tell me how you continue to build on what you had that summer or your sophomore year coming to your junior year.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:11:17] Yeah. So after my sophomore year internship, I knew I wanted to live in New York City. Know I'm from New York. I knew I wanted to be in a fast paced environment. I loved my sophomore year internship, but I just didn't think

that corporate finance was the right path for me. So I knew I wanted to do something on wall Street. I knew about investment banking. And was

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:44] It just tweeting like the day to day was just too slow for you? I think,

ConsumerInvestor: [00:11:49] You know, I think I was like. Too slow. It's more like it wasn't it wasn't fast, fast enough or competitive enough, or it wasn't really the right environment for me. I think it was an awesome company, but for the aspirations that I had and continue to have. It just wasn't really scratching that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:10] Ok, got it. Ok, so sorry, continue, I interrupted.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:12:14] Yeah. So I knew I wanted to do something on Wall Street. I knew I knew about all the job. I've done all my homework, but I've been taking a class that was the first semester of my junior year and this was when recruiting was somewhat normalized. And so I was taking a class that was pretty much an initiating coverage report, and I just completely fell in love with it. Like the whole idea of being an expert in something at 20 years old was the most attractive thing in the world to me. I called research analysts. I told into earnings calls like found the job for me, almost so I only interviewed starting in the beginning of my junior year for for equity research roles.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:03] But how do you even get those interviews if you're coming from a non target school? I mean, they're more there, a few firms coming on campus or zero?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:13:10] Yeah. So I was lucky there were a bunch of alarm from my school who just had been really successful in their niche coverage base.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:21] So there were equity research, in particular

ConsumerInvestor: [00:13:25] Research in particular. There was one thing that there were, I think, three or four very senior, highly ranked people at a few banks, so was able to really target them, connect with them really well.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:43] I got them on. You got them on the phone.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:13:45] Yeah, yeah. Got them, got a few of them on the phone. I met a few in person as well. My school did a similar, not a female forum, but a wall Street forum in the beginning of the year. So I was able to be on a 10 to panel with a bunch of research analysts. And it was great. I was able to also apply to the few sales and trading type of opportunities that did come on campus. Would interview with them would sound really good and then say, you know, can you connect me with your equity research division? And I was quite successful at a few firms doing that. Um, I ultimately ended up

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:31] So it sounds like you had at least what, three or four first round interviews that bulge bracket banks?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:14:36] Yes. Well, I Impressive. Yes, I had interviewed. Why do you

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:42] Think you're getting so much traction here? There's so many kids from non-targeted saying. It's impossible, you know, is it? Does it have to do with the fact that you're just like going through

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:50] Like you did? So you did the sales and trading interviews to kind of get into the get your foot in the door equity research, right? So like, that's kind of interesting. I did. How did you say that at the end of the interview without pissing them off or something?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:15:04] Yeah, I would wait till the end of the interview and they would email me. Actually, I had one bank who said to me, you sound really good for an equity research role, just the way that I was able to pitch my stock in the interview.  They're like, are you sure you don't want to do research? I think that was actually for it, for a capital markets oriented role. But pretty much any bank that was coming on campus I was interviewing with and because I had a good sophomore internship on my résumé and I was in an investing related club on my resume through my college. I was able to get at least a first round and

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:44] I was smart. You, you didn't limit yourself just because if it was sales and training or capital markets you were, you were smart enough to say, Let me just take the interview, make the contact. Yeah, definitely. But you were. You were. You were dead set on an equity research. Is that accurate, or would you have taken a sales and trading if you didn't get the equity research?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:16:04] You know, I was really, really my heart set on research, and I would say I took every interview very, very seriously and did my research and my homework, but they have the interview regardless is behavioral and they're going to ask the same question. So it's really good practice any interview you can get.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:26] For sure. Sorry, go ahead. So you went through all of that, you got about three to four and what happened?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:16:32] Yeah, and then I ended up at the firm I did. There were this, this had the most alarm from my college there. They hired the same, maybe one intern from my college a year. So I felt it was a good fostering environment for me. And I was correct. I loved I loved my research role. It was great. I had a ton of independence and was really able to just dive really deep and almost become an expert nerd on the industry that I covered, which was so much fun for me. Mm hmm. My internship, I spent the entire time, and I think this is pretty standard across all equity research, internships is an initiating coverage report. So you spend 10 weeks getting to know your sector about half of the time you are building out a model and then half the time you're building a 20 30 page report on the industry as well as the specific company. At the very end, it was like the last week of my internship. The company actually got acquired. So my report never got published, which was really upsetting to me. But I was able to join that team full time when I when I graduated.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:59] Very close, so were they impressed with the report, it sounds like they were impressed with the report. What was the conversion rate for these? They said they took one from your school, but was there like a group of 10 interns in the equity research group or 20? Or what was it like?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:18:11] Yeah, it's very small. I would say it was maybe 12

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:15] 12 and then how many got full time offers, maybe eight. And then they

ConsumerInvestor: [00:18:22] Hired maybe one or two. There were 10 in my starting analyst cohort, Curtis.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:30] I wanted to like laterals or whatnot.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:18:32] Yeah, exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:33] Ok, so did you feel like that was a pretty typical year for your bike?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:18:38] Um, I would say it was probably a good year. There were definitely smaller conversions in following internship years.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:47] Interesting. Ok. So you get the offer and you're like, now senior year is a blast. You don't have to worry. So equity research bulge bracket the pay. I assume the base is pretty similar to for an office job. Was it like eighty or eighty five then?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:19:05] Yeah, it is around that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:06] And is that did they communicate at all, like what the bonus expectations were? Um, no, but I think my I knew it

ConsumerInvestor: [00:19:16] Was significantly less than banking, just based on my my friends and what I knew about banking, and I was more than OK and very happy with my starting

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:27] Salary. So how did it, how did it play out? Was the was the bonus, you know, twenty thousand ten thousand forty thousand thirty around there?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:19:38] Well, first year, I think everyone got the same, like around 10, and then after that it's like you're in a pool against all other non senior analysts. So people who are VP's associates, et cetera. And it's really they try and make it very performance based, and they're surveys that go to sales and to clients that hedge funds and whatnot. And you know it, it is supposed to be formulaic. So, you know, I was happy with my bonuses while I was there because I was a strong performer, but I know that. I mean, it's significantly less than investment banking.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:21] Was that one of the reasons why you started thinking of laterally or was it more like because it sounds like you really love the research, the actual job? What was the thought process of Hey, I need, you know, I want to go to front office investment banking now because equity research, you're working with 60 hours a week. 70.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:20:37] Yeah, I mean, when it's not earning, it's like for me, I would get in maybe about seven or eight A.m. wi fi. Seven. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Never really work on a weekend. It was very good lifestyle, but I think after working really hard for two years, I pick my head off thought, why would I want to do with my life and think I was just very frustrated with the stock market even a few years ago? Just the way that the stocks were trading didn't make sense to me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:11] What about now? What do you think now? It's now February. Oh my God. You many everything was disconnected from value. Even in twenty eighteen nineteen, everything was already still becoming disconnected from fundamentals, right? Yeah. Yeah, I think that

ConsumerInvestor: [00:21:24] Is probably the number one reason why I left research is just because of my frustration on I couldn't I could never see myself being an investor in a publicly traded stock that I thought was an amazing business because amazing businesses aren't always amazing stocks, and that just is so hard for me to come to terms with, especially as a research analyst. So you was it?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:51] Tell me how they were ranking the team. So was it something where you were putting price targets on different stocks and it was like a percentage, how accurate you were over a certain period of time? How did they even do that? So like from an internal

ConsumerInvestor: [00:22:05] Process, it was more at least on the junior level, just feedback that you would get from clients and feedback that you would get from sales.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then from an external perspective, there's two kind of ways in which hedge funds and long only kind of rank research analysts. There's Institutional Investor magazine Ranking that goes out every year. And if you get irate ranked,

That's a good beat for that senior analyst and that team and then hedge funds and long only is also allocate broker votes to specific research analysts saying, You know, our fund is paying your Bank X dollars and I want I'm paying you this because so and so gave me really great advice. Or, you know, after earnings, she released the note and then called me right away and was able to debrief me really great. So getting that

Direct feedback was very helpful for me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:16] Very cool. Yeah, I didn't know that I learned something new today. So it's a tell me a little bit about, yeah, I'm definitely not as

knowledgeable in the equity research space. So tell me about the transition, though. What when did you see you said after two years? So you pick your pick your head up after two years? Why banking? Why not go try to go straight to like a hedge fund? You felt like, Oh, it's not for you because like you said, you couldn't be in the public markets.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:23:39] Yeah. So I went down the hedge fund path and very much was like, this is this would be a great role for me, but it's just not this is not what I want to do for the next 10 years. Like I just will be so frustrated by everything that's going on. So I went down the path, also looking at long onlys and also similarly realized that just the value you can add at the junior level is just very limiting. And I think had a lot of the things I was looking for on investment horizon. But essentially, what I was describing to myself was private equity, and I don't think I realized that until a few years later, but I knew I needed some type of transaction experience. You know, the only exposure I really had to any transactions in research was if a company was IPO and they brought us in kind of last minute and then we initiated coverage. And that's not really transaction experience. And I often needed to improve my modeling. You know, I was very, very in the weeds of the operating model. That's really kind of an underrated part of research is the deep dive you get into the companies and really building a detailed operating build. That's  something you don't do as much in banking. Or at least I didn't. Um. So I knew

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:07] That's common for equity research, I think that's normal. Yeah, yeah,so yeah, so tell me how you kind of approach this. You're there for a couple of years. Were you thinking, Hey, I'm going to get promoted here if I stay or you're thinking? I just need to get out, I need a more of a challenge, why go to a job that you're working 60 hours a week, which is already a lot, a lot of hours? I'd go to a job where you're work and be working 80 to 100.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:25:29] Yeah, so I think for me, it was I viewed whatever my next move to be was going to be like I was in the mindset that this was like going to med school. It wasn't necessarily going to be the most fun, but I needed to do it in order to

get to do what I wanted to do. Whether that was becoming more senior and in an investment bank, whether that was doing private equity, whether that might have been going to along only regardless, I knew doing something to the rigor of investment banking would give me that, that experience that would get me there.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:10] That makes sense. Yeah, no, that makes sense. So how did you approach it as you're kind of coming up in two years, you get the second bonus is that you start talking to headhunters, you start talking to people at other banks. What was how did you even get into the lateral conversation?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:26:24] Yeah. So someone so my the team structure also and research is really small. There's one senior analyst and then one to three associates under the senior. So someone else who was an associate me actually also she moved

Internally to banking and had a really good experience, just from a knowledge learn learning ramp up experience. So I talked to her about it. Obviously, there's definitely pros and cons to banking, but knew that it was possible and something that is attractive.

As a as a junior analyst, you know, the industry really, really well, which most analysts don't. So I, after kind of going down the path of understanding hedge funds and long only then realizing I still didn't want to touch a stack  I went to not the head of research, but someone very senior in the research department and said, Hey, I want to move in. I want to do investment banking like I had already been flagged as a top performer in research was definitely on track to being promoted. I was on track for having my own coverage. It was it was a good, very good experience for me, but I was just ready to do something else. So internally they had conversations and while they knew it was going to work and be a good transition, they didn't want it to happen right away. There is kind of a hiring freeze going on and there are a lot of moving parts happening within research. So they wanted me to stay in my spot for just a little bit longer. So at that time,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:11] Did they say six months or a year or what did they say? No. Yeah, they

ConsumerInvestor: [00:28:15] Didn't even really give a timeline.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:16] It's kind of like, Yeah, you'll be able to do it, but just hang tight kind of thing. Yeah, exactly.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:28:22] It had worked before. There was a need for it on the banking side. But on the research side, I think they really needed me to stick around just for a little bit longer. Which is totally understandable. I just was getting a little impatient

fare, so I looked externally. I had a friend who was in banking in a different group at the bank. I ended up eventually joining and she told me the consumer retail group was hiring. It was just a really good, really good timing for me. Um, so I had a few phone interviews with like nothing challenging to be honest. And then I went in for Super Day. I brought my initiating coverage report, which was like one hundred pages and printed it out, like threw it on the desk and we were just able to talk through the sector. And you know, it was it was more of a conversation and discussion about the industry and less of a of a hard interview. Um, well, what were the doubts? Were they? Did they push you a little bit on

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:36] Your financial modeling skills or your accounting skills or anything about like the hours? Were they concerned?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:29:41] Well, I mean, I think I expressed that I was confident that I'd be able to ramp up. I was able to ramp up quickly and research by taking on your coverage. I think the modeling piece was definitely a question mark and I was able to lateral in as a second year analyst. So typically people take maybe like a two year step back, but I took like a one year step back.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:11] It's not bad at all. Yeah.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:30:14] Be able to negotiate that and think it made sense just by the amount of knowledge I knew in the space. And it just made sense. Cool.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:24] So you're. You make that transition, it sounds like it only took you a month or two months before you were. And a jumping. The new bulge bracket, yeah,

ConsumerInvestor: [00:30:34] Yeah, so I say the interview process. So was finished within maybe like three or four weeks, and then they told me, you know, we want to bring you on board, but I never got a formal confirmation on my on my offer. So it's kind of like hanging out all summer, waiting for my formal offer.Luckily, it was not, not very busy at work, so I was able to have a pretty relaxing summer and then got the offer and joined early that

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:08] Fall. Nice. And so tell me about that transition because I think there's other listeners that may have to go through it. Tell me what was the easiest thing? The hardest thing? Yeah, I would say

ConsumerInvestor: [00:31:19] The transition was honestly harder than I expected, and not even at all from like an actual workflow perspective an just more of a team dynamic perspective. So I've been I was used to really working with only one person of my boss and it was very efficient process my ideas and of writing research reports and everything was very efficient and. Very much. Like, respected as a top performer, I'd already been in the bank for two years and coming in, they didn't necessarily know me or I told Reprove Myself, and it was maybe a little bit frustrating. And just working with so many people in between me and the boss was cconfusing to me and very inefficient,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:14] Like having an associate and a VP and potentially a director and or a director. And then before the MD. Yeah, yeah, it was

ConsumerInvestor: Just very, very weird for me. And that was the biggest adjustment. And then also just dealing with so many different personalities. You know, I think

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:32] Everyone who is the worst, who is the worst personality, I'm an associate director says it's the way an MBA came out of HBS or something. And I can tell you that was my worst.

ConsumerInvestor: I would say, I definitely I think I worked with all really nice people, like all the analysts and associates in my group were really, really nice, good people. I think that when people get overloaded and jammed with work, then it's really hard regardless of whatever job you're in. But it's really hard to just manage your different workflows and working with so many different people.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:09] You were struggling with that. It sounds like in terms of pushing back. Or like so you quickly like ramped up to 800 hours a week. And was it because you hadn't been dealing with all that crazy and efficiency before that you were having trouble with it? Or you're saying something else?

ConsumerInvestor: Now, I think it was just more, just working with so many different people who maybe I didn't mesh really well with like I was on such a good team and research that I just clicked well with my boss, I clicked with the other people I worked with. And it's not so much that I didn't click well in banking. It's just it was just like juggling and working with so many different people was new to me.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:49] And there are some rude people, probably an Are really tough on Bp, the directors that you work under. I get it.

ConsumerInvestor: Yeah, and not the most fun projects that I was on. You know, I was hungry and ready to be on deals and was just I was just a lateral fucking year and, you know, definitely was not

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:08] On there throwing you out a bunch of pitches. Is that what you're saying?

ConsumerInvestor: Yeah, I mean, not not the most exciting work I was doing right away and just very frustrated and pay your dues again. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:22] So how many how many hours were you working?

ConsumerInvestor: Yeah. So I would say in the beginning when I was working on just like, not fun projects, It was maybe around 70, 80 hours a week. And then as things got more busy, like I would say, and right before COVID really hit like big This time last year, I was put on like three or four live deals. Wow. And things really got really got crazy. And you know, I cover the retail consumer space. So during COVID, everyone was either doing really well, we're really bad and we had to act really efficiently

As a as a bank to help our clients. And it was just an all hands on deck situation. And, you know, things definitely got crazy working over one hundred hours, multiple weeks in a row definitely wears you down.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:18] And then at that point, your work from home, right when you get, yeah, is that what is that? What prompted the quick promotion? But I guess you were checking your analyst. So it's a straight analyst associate promo. Was that typical? Where were they handing out a lot of promotions to analysts like your analyst trying to keep you? Yeah. So the bank

ConsumerInvestor: Tipped the group that I'm in or wasn't typically does promote analysts after two years and we we found out if you were getting that promotion or not. And certainly not everyone got that promotion,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:47] Probably even with how busy that the team was.

ConsumerInvestor: Yeah. Yeah. So we got I would have thought

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:56] They would have just been like everybody, even if they're even if they're horrible, just come along for the ride. We just need anybody, you know? Yeah, but OK, so you're saying that some of the second year analysts didn't get that offer and that was during COVID. Right or right?

ConsumerInvestor: That was like right before COVID. I want to say in early February,

We got communicated if you were getting promoted or not. And, you know, I was really excited and thrilled to take the promotion. I had not started recruiting at all. I was not ready, were in the mindset or had the experience.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:35] Yeah, you were just finally getting on live deals a year in or, you know, nine months or whatever.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:36:39] Exactly. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:41] Why do you think it took so long to get on some live deals was just not enough deal flow to go around and because you're a lateral, you kind of got stuck with the stuff you know no one else wanted to do, but first. Yeah, so I think it was a combination

ConsumerInvestor: [00:36:53] Of I was deaf, so the way the staffing really works

Is you're stacked on clients, not necessarily deals. So I was stopped on a client that might be doing an IPO or might be doing, you know, needing a refinancing. And but the main product was this more  annoying task that we had to do like a valuation work. And it was just not it was not like the sexiest job, but it was right. It was it was really important for the relationship and took up a ton of time.

So it was hard for me to be on something else that would like valuation work.  What do you mean? Yeah, it was. It was pretty

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:36] Much getting them up to date every month or something like that, something

ConsumerInvestor: [00:37:41] It was more valuation of their portfolio companies applied to market multiples and. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:49] Hmm. Ok. So. So you get the promotion or they tell you in January, February, right before COVID hits. Covid hits, everyone goes to home, everyone goes home. You're now working 80 to 100 hours a week from home. And then tell me, at what stage are you like, OK, get me out of this because I think there's a lot of people dropping off. A lot of first year analysts, already seven months end, are dropping out first year analysts from what we're seeing in the forums. So I'd like to hear kind of as  an analyst associate, promote what it was like for you.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:38:22] Yeah. So I would say. The work from home thing, at least for me, made things way better, like I had a way better work life balance from home and honestly, when COVID, hopefully soon everything goes back

Back to normal. I hope banks really implement a culture where working from home is OK. Multiple times a week. I think it does wonder. I think that because you could do laundry and stuff. Yeah, it's everything from laundry to cooking your own meal, just taking 30 minutes out of your day to go on a walk. It's just, I think it's really great.

And other industries like consulting or even my friends who work in tech working from home has been the norm for a while. I don't know why in Wall Street it hasn't.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:18] So I'm surprised you say that, because every associate I talked to you during COVID, or it feels like almost every associate was drowning, so you were still drowning in the sense of hours, but it's just that switch to home was really good for you. Yeah, I mean, I was drowning even.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:39:34] To be honest, I you're going to be drowning. Either way, it's the dynamic of what's going on in the world and it. I mean, yeah, it's not it's not fun to be drowning. But if you can be comfortable in your own home and work efficiently and have a good setup, why not?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:52] Did you have roommates?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:39:54] Um, I had actually moved back home to my parents for a little bit and then moved back to the city with my boyfriend. So we're both working from home. We both work in finance. There's a lot of, you know, we have a door, so it's like a tiny small situation. So no worries there.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:12] Yeah. So that's nice because at least you had somebody there to like, talk to on a break or something like that and you were like, completely isolated. I feel like that's I think that's what makes it really tough for some of these analysts who are, like, just completely isolated at home or they're living with their parents. Yeah, yeah. I mean, stuff you're like in college and you go, you think you're going to like New York? And then all of a sudden you're stuck at home with your parents again.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:40:37] I mean, look, on the bright side, you're probably saving money. You know, maybe your parents will help cook for you or do your laundry. Oh, yeah. You know, it's not all downside, but I mean, I think they're definitely missing out on some of the camaraderie and other fun things you do get by just working late hours near someone, for sure. So you get that promotion kind of in the summer

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:03] To associate in the middle of COVID. What was the communication like, and then when did you start actually looking into private equity jobs and how did you approach that? How is that different?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:41:14] Yeah. So I would say I knew I wanted to do something else besides banking, probably around the time I, I was told I was getting promoted, but I didn't know that timeline. I was open to being an associate for a little bit seeing how that goes, but I knew it kind of didn't want to be a VP and do be a career banker.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:37] Why do you say that just because of what you had seen for that first year? Um, I I I was still new, I

ConsumerInvestor: [00:41:44] Wanted to do something just a little bit more strategic and long term with companies rather than being reactive, which I think a lot of the times, especially during COVID, it's more reactionary. Whereas I wanted to be really in the weeds in terms of strategy and operations with companies.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:07] Did you ever think about consulting? Yeah. Yeah, I mean,

ConsumerInvestor: [00:42:11] I think that consulting still sounds interesting to me. I think almost in my private equity seat now I am kind of like a consultant for our portfolio companies. Which is cool.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:23] So, yeah, so tell me how you kind of it sounds like right when they told you had to promote early 2020 twenty, you were kind of already thinking about it and then tell me how you got to that realization and how you approached it.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:42:33] Yeah. So I think I knew exactly what I wanted to do, which was I wanted to continue working in the consumer retail landscape, really only working in in a private equity forum with the rest of those companies. And then I also knew I didn't want to be at a big firm likeI had been my entire career. You know, I was. I was almost tired of being in a bigger setting, I in high school was in a similar program where my voice was very much heard and it was very collaborative. You know, it's really hard to get that in a bigger setting. So I knew I wanted to do something middle market and consumer retail focus. Um, so after connecting with every single headhunter known to man, you know, I had flagged to them actually probably like this time last year saying, look, this is these are the only jobs I want. Please contact me when they when they become available. And I knew I wasn't going to really be an on cycle type of candidate I was in a to promote. I have this interesting background. I don't have that much experience in banking. It was really looking for a unique opportunity. And so I started interviewing probably over the summer, like late summer with firms that maybe wasn't. Like super, exactly what I wanted, I stopped being super picky, but just kind of wanted to get some reps in once I was able to add some experience, even though nothing had close to my heart that did that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):  [00:44:23] Did your specificity early on of saying, I only want retail focused funds? Do you feel like that hurts you or helped you because it sounds like you still were able to get interviews in the summer for more generalist private equity positions? Yeah, but tell me, do you feel like that hurts you initially? So I would say probably initially, like

ConsumerInvestor: [00:44:43] There were just less. It's a big consumer only type of funds, they're just way more generalist positions out there. They're probably wasn't getting a ton of interviews because of that but then over the summer, there was a firm that invested in a little bit of retail and I was like, You know what? I'll do this. I'll be OK as a generalist. I'll be able to eventually silo into retail. It makes sense.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:10] How did you go back and how did you go back to the headhunters and say, Just kidding, you open it up?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:45:15] No, I mean, I was able to to say, look like I looked at this company's portfolio. I think they align with what I'm looking for if it's possible to eventually silo. You know, I don't I didn't want to be a VP covering industrials if my passion really lies with consumers.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:34] Ok, so you've got a few reps in which is always good in the summer. Yeah.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:45:39] So I was like really nervous about these interviews, and I would say that they were not the sole way I prepared for even the basic interviews with the Wall Street Oasis Prep path. I think. There's a ton of very intense LBO models on your investment banking team drive that goes around to everyone. But that's almost not that's the wrong place to start. I think especially coming in as collateral, the LBO models that your team provided was perfect for me. You know, just step by step, like really just walking through how to do everything. Even though I had been doing elbows in my job, like in banking, it's still not really what the interview process is like.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:29] Yeah, you still got to get the reps into and just practice it a few times. There's like the paper elbow, then there's the one hour and then the three hour crazy once. But yeah, yeah. Did you? Did you find that? I guess tell me of how many private equity processes or how many first round interviews did you have and then how many of those do you feel like? Did you end up getting sick around or modeling tests or stuff like that? I'd be curious to hear those numbers. Yeah.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:46:52] So again, I was very picky with who I interviewed with, and I think because of that, I was very successful and in almost all my interviews because I was able to just view my passion for the industry. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:07] So that's the advantage, right? That's the way I was asking, was it a big disadvantage? Because I guess once you hit the right fund, it's just like I've been waiting for this exact role for a year. Like to give it to me now.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:47:17] Ok. Exactly, exactly. And I think that goes I mean, at least for me, when I I knew exactly what I wanted to do, it just made sense for me to really target those types of firms. So that first process that I was in, that was like a generalist role, but they did some retail. That process went really, really well. And I was I was taking that more of a let's get some type of experience, but would be really happy here. And I think that was a really good start for me and got my confidence up that I was able to do this really.] I think once you start going, you can you realize that you can do it and it's not that hard. I think getting to the point where I was even comfortable submitting my resume was a harder, harder leap. That makes sense you know, I've had

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:06] Funds that we worked with on a recruiting side, like a mechanic, be like we only want females or say we need female  applicants. There's not enough. You think there's something there because from my perspective, when we saw the candidates coming in, it was almost all it was almost all men. And I know that banking, it's obviously skewed more demand, but it's not that skewed, right? So maybe it's just a W.H.O. thing, but I was surprised like it would be one in like 20 applicants. And I know there's. Probably a lot of investment making women that want to be in private equity. I don't know, do you think there's something there where they're just like, don't want to do it or they go somewhere else instead or they want to get out of finance?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:48:47] Yeah, it's a good question. So I'm actually the only female at my current firm that's my point.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:54] It's super underrepresented. It's less so at the banks now, right? Because they have a lot more of those programs, but. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Like just talking to your friends who are in banking because you said a few times I had my friend and she blah blah blah, so I'd be curious to hear what they did. So a lot of my friends

ConsumerInvestor: [00:49:14] Who have been in banking and left banking and

my group is very female dominant, I think that I think it just also the consumer retail industry does also just attract more women than other industries. And our group had was we had a lot of senior women in the group, which definitely also helped attract women talent and a lot of a lot of the people that I have seen left. We've recently have done things like corporate development. Someone went to a VC firm. It's all within the normal realm, but a lot of people have actually stayed with them thinking, I think that the culture, at least in my group, was very supportive and a very good place to grow as a female in the banking industry. I would love to see more women in on the buy side. I think that goes also in the hedge fund and only world. I don't know why there aren't more women.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:19] Are they applying in a lower rate? Meaning if you had 10 10 men like out of the men in banking, I'd assume like seven of them apply or trying to get private equity. How many of the women do you think are trying to get private equity like four three? I think it's that's almost like half.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:50:37] The female, like a female bankers that I've worked with, some people, some people do want to do private equity, and I think their process is just

running on their own timeline. I think a lot of people are also happy in banking. I think I think also, I mean, I don't think private equity is super different than thinking. I like it a lot more, but I think people might be not looking for banking 2.0. And maybe women just pick up on that

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:13] Like the lower the lower middle market, it's not. And I know you haven't been at your at least. Yeah, I worked at in a market fund I had it was it was an amazing job. When I was at tailwind, it was really interesting. I was working probably 60 hours a week, but interesting work. So for me, it was great. But yeah, so there are the Banking 2.0 that's that tends to be the more than mega fund from what I can, I can tell.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:51:36] But yeah, I would say my firm is too small to like waste resources on banking, as you point out, which I've really appreciated and I'm really enjoying my current role.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:48] Well, I know you've got to run, so I'm going to let you go. But is there any other last words of wisdom before we call it what we call the pot?

ConsumerInvestor: [00:51:57] Yeah, I mean, they even when folks are feeling down or

having a hard week or hard few weeks, stick with it. It's not going to be forever this tough speak up if things are getting super hard. I think that banks in particular are looking to improve culture so things are getting really rough just raise your hand and things will get better.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:24] Awesome. We'll leave it at that, I think that's mental health is important during this whole saga. This last year has been pretty rough and a lot of people. So yeah, hopefully some of the analysts can make it out the other end without like just leaving with nothing, with no backup. But yeah, I always say, like if it's much better to just raise your hand and say I can't do anymore rather than just quit. You say I need a wake up if I need a week off or I need to be out, I'm sick, whatever. Just do something because if they're working you that hard, that tends it tends to really protect you because it really needs you. Yeah. Also, so I keep that in mind. So, OK, we'll leave it there, but we'll leave it there. Consumer and investor, thanks so much for your time. Appreciate it.

ConsumerInvestor: [00:53:12] Have a good one.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:13] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.