WSO Podcast | E160: UBS & Lazard IB to Private Equity with Detours Along the Way
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In this episode, James shares his non-traditional path from the University of Georgia to working at UBS in investment banking once he graduated. We'll hear about a big risk he took delaying graduation, how he recovered when he was forced to finish his analyst stint early and why he ended up back in IB at Lazard a few years later before finally making the transition to private equity.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 160) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into
different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, James shares his non-traditional path from the University of Georgia to working at UBS and investment banking once he graduated. We'll hear about a big risk he took delaying graduation, how he recovered when he was forced to finish his analyst stint early, and why he ended up back in IBM at Lazard a few years later before finally making the transition to private equity. Enjoy. All right, James, welcome to the Wall Street Voices podcast. Thanks for having me. It'd be great if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.
James: [00:01:02] Yeah, sure. So I guess I grew up in Atlanta once the University of Georgia. After that, I worked at UBS in investment banking. I also worked at Lazard, an investment banking and then the private equity side. I've worked at Excel, KKR and now a firm in LA called Diversas Capital. I'll pretty much, I guess, either tech or software sort of focused. And yeah, no, I just saw my second year as an associate at my company there in L.A..
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:33] Cool. And so you've been out of school for about five years, right?
James: [00:01:38] Yeah, that's all right.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:40] Crazy how time flies, right? I just I just turned forty one yesterday, so I'm like, I'm like an ancient for a startup land and Silicon Valley. But anyways, so let's go back all the way to undergrad and just hear a little bit about what kind of drew you to finance. Was it always kind of on the horizon? Do you have family in the business? How did you end up there?
James: [00:02:03] No, honestly. Like, no, no real connections. I really don't even know about investment banking for the majority of my college career until kind of the last bit where I really had the hustle and initially. I think I was just watching like I really like to show suits, and so I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I thought I'd become a corporate lawyer or at least try. And I guess at UGA, at least what I noticed is that when I was taking my finance classes, all the kind of top kids in those classes were all getting these jobs. These, I guess, pretty coveted roles, in my opinion, at least at that time, especially, you know, they were going from the finest programs to these bulge bracket banks. And I thought, OK, this is something I should look into. And I think that's what sort of caught my eye, just seeing people that I kind of respected pursuing something that seemed like a pretty difficult to achieve goal. And that's what initially attracted me to. And so.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:57] And what year was that, would you say? Was that like junior year by that point?
James: [00:03:02] Yeah, it was senior year. So I was already behind way behind and I at that time, I had no internships. So your resume was
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:11] Like pretty blank. You had a lot of good athletic stuff, and it sounds like your GPA was super high. So you had that going for you?
James: [00:03:19] Yeah. Fortunately, my GPA, I had going for me. I guess athletics for
What that counts. But as soon as i kind of figured out what the credentials were to getting a job, I just sort of started stacking up as many internships as I can. Frankly, I could, frankly, and I even extended my graduation a year to kind of buy me some more time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:40] Oh, cool. Yeah, we could talk about that decision because I think there's a lot of people in that seat where they get to junior year and they're just like, especially now, it's like even even earlier than when you were there. And so like, they get there and there's just no seats and they're like, Wait a second, how did how is this already done? Or, you know, almost two years away from graduating? So tell me a little bit about just so you kind of it sounds like kind of junior year you sort saying, hey, this finance things interesting and you just talked about stacking internships. Tell me how you kind of first made it that first internship and how you manage to do it kind of during the year?
James: [00:04:15] Yeah. Ok. So I guess thinking back, it was it was my junior year of second semester and I had no internships. But there is a local investment bank in Athens called Fresh Capital Partners. Athens, Georgia and all the guys and our finance club. Not all the guys, but a lot of people intern there. They all seem to be able to secure these bulge bracket offers. And so I honestly just paying them a bunch of times and this doesn't always work. But frankly, he said no the first few times and then
Eventually coming back and just ask me if I wanted to grab coffee. Then I started an internship there at that day. And so that was, I'd say, my first exposure to any sort of transaction or deal type.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:00] When you said you messaged about how many times did you message them before giving up and how far apart did you put that? Was it like every week you were hitting them up or was like every three weeks, four weeks?
James: [00:05:09] I'd say for a good. So first I emailed him twice and he didn't answer me. So I just called him, yeah, and left him a voicemail. And then I emailed him one more time then. Then he responded to my email saying, you know, it's probably not going to work. He's already kind of filled up. And then I sent him one more follow up email kind of saying, explaining myself, explaining kind of what I was looking to get out of it. And if there's any exception you can make. Obviously, that's great. If not, then I'll stop pestering them. And fortunately, I guess after the fourth contact, he yeah, he just responded in a positive way.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:43] Do you think it is like the way you framed it? Like, I'll stop bothering you kind of a little more like you showed persistence, but you're kind of ready to back off or what do you think? Kind of. You can always fit one more intern, right? It's kind of like one of those things. So just the way you came across, you thought was good in that email.
James: [00:05:59] I don't know, I think. I think it was the content of my first few emails and probably just throughout the entire dialogue that helped kind of explain why it was so important to me and what I was looking to get out of it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:11] What did you say? Do you remember or can you pull it up? Because this is like because like a lot of a lot of kids, yeah, a lot of kids, like they just don't know exactly how to phrase things and like how, you know? Well, the reality is, you just needed that that first internship, right, to even have your resume, so did you. How honest were you with that? Yeah, no,
James: [00:06:32] I totally, you know, I explained to them kind of my vulnerabilities and my strengths. I said, look like, you know, I really want this. It's an uphill battle. I have no internships yet. I have a good GPA. You know, I've been involved in sports and I've kind of worked, you know, to help make money during college. And I just didn't quite understand what it took or what was required to get into this. And you know, I could work any hours like whatever time for free. You know, I think I even made a joke like, I even do his laundry or something like that. But yeah, I think I should explain my situation, and I wasn't afraid to say that I didn't have any experience. But, you know, I was willing to learn and eager to do it. It's great.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:11] I love it. That tends to get a really good response if you like, kind of make a humble joke and. If there's any room for you, they'll tend to make room, and even if there's not, sometimes they'll like, find a friend that could give you an an internship. I put it in quotes because oftentimes they'll just let you put stuff on your resume that helps open those doors. Yeah, yeah. Ok, so how did that go? Did you actually do laundry or do there? Was there any good work?
James: [00:07:36] Yeah. I mean, it was great. So it's kind of funny. Like, I see why he makes it kind of i don't say selective, but doesn't take on that many because he his office is basically out of his house and he does work on deals, you know, he works on, I guess, a good bit of deals and a lot of it. I think he kind of got to that age where he wanted to kind of like, pay it, pay it forward or pay it backward. I guess a little bit. And, you know, part of the internship, the first two hours when he would just. Teach us things, I mean, he wouldn't be working on things that we're making in money. You just be like, This is what this works or this is what this means. I mean, he was Like, This is what EBITDAR means like this is, you know, how leverage works, whatever it is, right? I mean, he just kind of gave a little boot camp every time you came in. Which is. I mean, you know, in hindsight, I don't think I don't know. There were many people that do that, so
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:29] For sure, for instance, like it's his own business and he's kind of taking time out to train the internet and all that. So how big was the group like three or four of you at the time?
James: [00:08:39] Yeah, it was about three interns every Monday, Wednesday, Friday that would go in and we'd all kind of work and then get taught by Bob.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:47] Sounds fun. So that's kind of spring. So what do you do? What's the plan for the summer junior summer, which is a critical summer?
James: [00:08:56] Yeah. So I did that for about a year, and then I took a semester off to stack internships, actually. I guess I'll preface this by saying this is a risk that I took. I don't know if it's always going to pay off, but I figured it was the only way. So I took a semester off in the fall and basically stacked internships, so I was working there at that boutique investment bank. And then I also picked up this internship in Atlanta at the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. So basically Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I'd work in Athens and then Tuesdays and Thursdays i would commute to Atlanta and do that internship. So by the time recruiting came around Right, I had to, I guess, somewhat ok, internships, which is what I needed. Then I also tutored student athletes at Georgia, which was also on my resume. But those are the three kind of things that I was that I put on my resume that helped me kind of break in. So you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:51] Took your saying you took the fall senior year off?
James: [00:09:55] Yeah, and I remember I said I took I took a fifth year as well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:58] Yeah, you did a full but was it a full year? You just did an extra tacked on an extra semester at the end. And I graduated in December. I talked
James: [00:10:05] On an actual semester end and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:07] Graduated early, basically in the winter. Ok, so you're interesting. Ok, so you're I want to hear how this works out because not a lot of people are willing to actually completely change their college schedule because it's Scary right now. Everyone else is doing. Yeah, I'd love to hear just OK. So you had that full year, then you stacked it with that other internships and now your resume is filling out a little bit and you're going into kind of now the beginning of your senior year. But recruiting is already passed, right? You're like middle the way through the year. Kind of. What would it be? Would be like the winter, but I guess tell me how you kind of thought through that, that whole process, like, hey, I'm going to delay for one semester. Did you feel like you might miss a window?
James: [00:10:48] Now, so I guess when this happened, right, is, I guess, junior year. Spring semester is when I started to. So by the summer i had about six months of an investment banking internship, right? And then I did that throughout the summer and then when fall hit right, that's kind of when recruiting starts, I guess. But during that, at least five years ago, recruiting extended several months, right? I mean, even up till November December. Yeah. And so during that, the first semester at the fall semester, I was working both jobs and during while I was working, I guess during my internship at the SEC is when I started interviewing. Got it. So for full time roles? No, this was for. This is for internships.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:32] This is for internships the following summer. But you would have been you never really had. You ever, never really had an internship at junior summer internships. This was for like a junior summer internship equivalent.
James: [00:11:42] Exactly. Exactly. So I was interviewing for junior summer internships as a senior, as a senior who had delayed a semester. Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:51] So you were like willing to not only do the delay, but then that would that would delay you a little bit in terms of like six months. So it wasn't like you had this whole year, like huge time gap. Yeah, just try to go straight into kind of convert it or like, was the thought process, do this junior summer? And then what were you going to do if they gave you an offer to join a year later?
James: [00:12:14] I also know so when I was interviewing, right, it was still a fall before even a junior internships would a junior internship from the investment banking perspective would have even happened, right? As my senior with my senior year started is when I started interviewing, but they categorize me as a junior because I put my graduation date a year after it, right? Got it, got it. Got it. Was interviewing for that junior internship as a senior, having delayed my graduation date in order to even be able to participate on that because I Didn't think there's There would be a really a way to get it otherwise right. At least not.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:47] I'm not going to make sense. Yeah, the junior summer internship is kind of the window which you don't want to miss. So you're. Delaying your graduation enough so that you're kind of categorized as a junior, you get into that process. Tell me a little bit about how many resume drops you made and then like what your conversions were with those two internships kind of now on your resume?
James: [00:13:08] You mean, as I was recruiting for a summer analyst position, yeah,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:11] Yeah, exactly.
James: [00:13:13] Yeah. So that that was still a really tough process for me, just in general. But I think
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:20] Like 20 resume drops in to first round interviews, like what were they looking like or
James: [00:13:24] How in terms of that, I guess. I was getting actually a really little traction across the board. I think I was just I wasn't really even submitting resumes. I guess I was, but not through air. I was doing it solely through contacts or LinkedIn, or I'd reach out to somebody and somehow get them my resume and then pass it along to HR. And then I'd kind of apply to H.R.. But really, what I started doing was I just started booking flights to New York, honestly, and I go out there for a week during kind of school, right? And I would set up coffee chats with the people that i wanted to that I connected with on LinkedIn. Yeah. And I think kind of that face to face connection, just kind of it helped separate me from other people just putting them on LinkedIn. And that's kind of where I started getting a lot more traction.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:12] And there were like resume drops at your school. There wasn't enough to actually get any first round or anything like that.
James: [00:14:18] Yeah. Now I don't think anyone recruiter that Georgia really, except for a few people, a couple.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:23] Ok, so you were really hustling to do it yourself. And so you're actually flying up to New York and meeting with people. How many of those meetings do you feel like? How many times you do that your output in quotes, your senior year. So like a couple of times, a couple of times that.
James: [00:14:36] Yes, I did it, I did it once, which got me a few other interviews or a few interviews, right? But what really tells me is once I got those interviews, I followed up with the people who I told that I tried to meet up with. I told who I did meet up with, told that I had got those interviews and then they were able to get me interviews at their respective bank. So you suddenly
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:57] Became the hot commodity. Up. It definitely helped.
James: [00:15:01] And it was a way in. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:04] Nice. Do you remember like what those initial and were like or who were they were with or the other bulge brackets boutique? Yeah. So I guess, you know, I'll give a few examples.
James: [00:15:15] One was that it was Deutsche Bank. Someone I reached out to and then air contact me. And then they've brought me in. And it wasn't even in their sort of typical Super Day format, right? It was just meeting with, I think, air line up a few people. I met with all of them. And then that was my day. So around five interviews, 30 minutes apiece,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:34] And you had no clue like what that meant in terms of like how long they were going to take to get back to you or what was that? What was the communication?
James: [00:15:41] Um, well, they don't say exactly when they get back me because it almost felt very informal with that one specifically, right? Yeah so yeah, they said they'd get back to me. They eventually did, said Deutsche Bank didn't work out. And then I continue to interview and eventually I got an offer at UBS.but what also helps me a lot is i got an offer at ubs, and around that time during it, I also got an offer from CEO. I'm familiar with CEO.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:15] Yes, I do know, I see. Yeah, the unrepresented minority program. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So it's search. What's it called?
James: [00:16:24] Something sponsors for
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:26] Sponsors for education. Thank you. Yeah, we work with ESCO. They actually have a lot of mentor. We put like two hundred of their we did like 200 sessions of private equity interview prep further for their people to help. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. This past summer. So yeah, I know. I know. I see. Oh, well, so OK. So they you got in there. And so that helped you a lot, right? Because that's like a channel.
James: [00:16:49] Yeah, exactly. Well, the same week, I got both offers from UBS and SEO. And then what happened was as he had typically places. Yeah, but they ended up placing me at UBS because I was already kind of in there. So, yeah, that's kind of start.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:06] Cool. Ok. And then let's talk about your time at UBS, the grind of banking 16 to 18, 20, 16 to 18.So did you have a little bit of time off then before you started working? Or what was the what did you do in those six months?
James: [00:17:21] Yeah. So that was when I worked at Excel KKR for the six.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:25] You don't even take a break. You went straight into another internship.
James: [00:17:28] Yeah, yeah. I don't want to make the same mistake twice.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:31] Ok, so you stacked another internship and you What was that like? Is it like a private equity internship? Is that hard to get, I assume.
James: [00:17:40] Yeah. Well, in Atlanta, there's aren't that many private equity firms, so I think maybe in Atlanta they typically are. I mean, the people I work with in New York, I feel like all of them kind of came into banking with one or two private equity internships. But yeah, I mean, that was sort of a similar situation. I end up just reaching out to them, asking them if I could work for them, give them my resume and follow up a few times. And it just so happened. They had hired a few senior people that needed some, I guess, immediate support that they were recruiting an associate for. And so they're like, why not have some extra manpower? And so, yeah, I interned there for about six months before even starting full time at UBS.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:16] Do you remember if it was paid,
James: [00:18:18] It was paid ten bucks an hour,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:20] Nice
James: [00:18:22] An hour, an hour? Or what is it now? The internship there is twenty an hour now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:27] Twenty nice. Very good. Okay, so you were you were there for a good eight months. Do you feel like you learned a lot or is it mostly like just organizing stuff admin? Or were you actually like looking at like looking through sims and stuff and looking at businesses? Yeah, it was
James: [00:18:41] A little bit of both. I thing at first it was more so kind of your traditional intern work or you just kind of being passed down things that people just want to get out of their way. But it did start the transition as I got to know people a little bit more into more meaningful work. And I think ultimately I got enough there. I got a good bit out of it where I felt like obviously I didn't have a true private equity experience, but I at least knew what I was talking about and could speak to. I kind of process deals right now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:09] Did they let you sit in like on the investment committee meetings and stuff like that? Yeah, they did. That's cool. Yeah, that's cool to see that at such a young age. Ok, so you're kind of going from that straight into your investment banking analyst stint at UBS and you what's it like right out of the gate? Are you kind of you're going through training, you're trying to get up to speed? Do you feel like you had a lot to learn? Do you feel like you're it was easy because you had kind of the finance background or what was it like? Yeah, I'd
James: [00:19:38] Say. I'd say just kind of getting used to New York was a big part of it, just moving. But in terms of the job. I'd say that I came in with enough, you know, enough kind of a foundational skill to be able to kind of hit the ground running for, but I was also learning throughout the first six months time. There's a ton of hours you're working on live deals and even with those internships, I'd say it's you're just kind of not thrown into the trenches and internships like that, right? And so you still kind of have a lot to learn when you start. But I did have at least a foundation that helps kind of facilitate that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:18] Were the what was it like, tough in terms of just getting used to the lifestyle, like living at the office?
James: [00:20:26] So I was actually a bit surprised with hours.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:29] It wasn't as bad.
James: [00:20:30] Well, it was and it wasn't right. It was only bad. I mean, it was bad for two weeks in a row, but I didn't understand that after that two week kind of chaos that you get kind of a week where everyone's taking off around five, right? And so it's kind of ebb and flow like that. When you're when you're working, you're really working. And when you're not, you're not at all. I mean, you're just kind of doing nothing all day.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:50] Yeah. Laundry or in the office, a lot of downtime. So tell me a little bit about just how things progressed. It sounds like the first six months you were learning a lot. Things kind of plateaued a little bit in terms of your your learning, it sounds like. Was that why you kind of started looking or what was the thought process, which private equity on the horizon?
James: [00:21:07] Yeah. So I guess I mean, this is a I don't even know there's enough time in this podcast for this one. But yeah, it's a bit of transition for, I guess, a different path, right? I think I was about a year into almost a year and a half into my analyst at UBS, right? And I seem to get back to Atlanta for how about some family or deal some family things? And so I end up having to leave my analyst program early. And during that time, basically, you know, it's going back to Atlanta needs to kind of get my foot in the ground again and I just reach out to excel. Kkr, the same people I worked out worked out before and for a position kind of told them again, you know, moving back, this is going on looking for a job. Do you guys have anything for me? Unfortunately, I built out built up some pretty strong connections during my internship to where things ended up working out.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:01] That's amazing. Yeah, that's not always the case. I mean, look, look, that internship was a good eight months before you started your banking stint. So looking back, you're like, Wow, I'm really happy I did that, right?
James: [00:22:11] Oh yeah, for sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:13] Because it led to that kind of seamless transition or as seamless as it could be, right? Given the given the kind of you had to cut your analyst at short. So you're back home, you're working for. So KKR kind of it looks like a little bit of consulting as well. They'd have a consulting practice there.
James: [00:22:31] Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I guess I'll back up a little bit because I think this is important too during, I guess, during my second year of my analyst program, actually, I also got an offer from Hyg and private equity. That's what I wanted to do.And because the situation I mentioned, I have four 5th out as well. And so I did go to ex-smoker, albeit on their consulting team, because we're more of the full time position was, yeah, their entire team. It doesn't change pretty much in San Francisco to which which is great because it was something and I did give it a chance, but ultimately my goal is still to do traditional private equity. Yeah, no, that's exactly that worked with their internal consulting team. So it's kind of McKenzie type guys and very different work than what I Was used to, and it's still good a lot. There's a little bit of
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:19] A detour if it's a little detour because you had to be home, but that's, you know, that happens, right? People are forced to kind of take a take a detour of where they want to go. The hard part is actually getting back on and not falling way off the track like you still had a, you know, a related job. Yeah. And so tell me how kind of once things were, you're able to kind of move again out of Atlanta? Tell me a little bit about how you thought about that next move. Why not go straight recruit to private equity? Or did you try? And it was just impossible and you had to go back to the banking route?
James: [00:23:52] Yeah. So I guess I knew I wanted to do that or go into private equity, right? And I articulated that both to excel KKR and headhunters, right? So there are two paths there with Excel. Kkr is the. Oh, I guess the thing they hire in cycles like everyone else, and so it just seems like there might have been an opportunity or there might have not, right, just depending on depending on if things opened up. And I don't want to get pigeonholed into that consulting team. So I felt like I kind of needed to move now, otherwise, otherwise, there's not going to be a chance. I'm going to miss my window. So essentially, I recruited for both. I guess I recruited for private equity first, right? Because obviously that's what I wanted to do. But I also recruited for banking and just looked at groups I thought were really strong. That place really well. And I thought, I guess the rationale for that was it's one it helped, kind of. I guess it helps kind of put me back on that traditional timeline of the recruiting cycle and with a more typical profile. And that's what I thought would help kind of make the transition back to private equity group a little bit easier for sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:06] Yes. So tell me like so you start interviewing the P? Like, did you get to any final rounds with private equity shops or how did that work?
James: [00:25:14] Yeah, no. I was doing well. I mean, well, I guess I've got a few leads I interviewed at Marlin. What's their final round? And then a few.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:24] What about the hyg offer that you had before they just they weren't open at that point?
James: [00:25:29] Yeah, it was. It was kind of just water under the bridge really late. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:34] Oh, man, that's got to be like a little bit disheartening. Like you make it through like all those processes and they're like, here's the offer and you're like, I can't take it. And then like only a year and a half later, they're like, Nope.
James: [00:25:45] Yeah. There's also, I mean, incredibly difficult to explain the situation to headhunters, right? Because it's so I'd say it's so unique compared to a lot of people, right? And so just like now, they spent a lot of time trying to wrap their heads
Around what was going to be like. What are
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:59] You doing? What are you doing? You're going a year and a half year, year and a half there? Yeah, OK. Ok, so but you know, you're interviewing, you're kind of explaining your story and then you end up at Lazard up in Boston, right? So tell me you're just looking for a strong, strong brand name, strong kind of placement to P was a thought process like stay on the East Coast or was there any thought process of Boston versus Atlanta versus New York because you've been now New York, Atlanta, Boston and L.A.?
James: [00:26:29] Yeah, yeah. New York was intentional. Atlanta was intentional. Boston was totally just by chance.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:35] I won't take it personally, even though I got my Celtics hat on.
James: [00:26:40] Look, I like Boston, but i think especially moving around the place you live is only as good as the people you know there. And frankly, I Didn't know that many people in Boston, so. Yeah, I guess I went there, I got what I Went there for, and then I left, and I don't know if I would be back.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:57] So you're kind of when you start there, I mean, was lizard at all. I mean, I think for any sort of lateral analyst, this is a concern. People hiring like they're hiring a lateral in a spot because they're filling a spot that typically like they need filled is. Was there any like, you know, you're promised you're going to be here for at least like two years or a Year? Is there anything like that on the interview front that you had to like? Say for sure. Yeah, no problem.
James: [00:27:25] Yeah, there definitely was that was a discussion. And. You know, I think for me, it wasn't something that I like. You're an at will. It's not, well, employer, right? So. I guess you want to do you want to give people the word to the best of your ability, right? And so I think that's why I try to do and I said, you know, there's a version of me that wants to explore private equity, but I don't plan to just come here and leave immediately, right? And that wasn't my plan, right? And so but it just it just ended up happening that way. And I think, you know, you've got to be your own best advocate at times and do what's best for you. And so that's kind of what I end up doing. And unfortunately, it meant that I left a little bit earlier than probably. You know, I guess I didn't do quite a year there, but
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:14] Yeah, you didn't even get a bonus, right?
James: [00:28:16] Yeah, I didn't even get a bonus. So I mean, for them, maybe that was a good thing because I worked almost a full year and didn't they didn't pay that out. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's it's take the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:27] Sting quite as much, probably then. But yeah, so you're kind of there for nine months. What was it like just being in a, you know, now in a we'll call like an elite boutique? Was it very different from the UBS kind of framework where you like give them more responsibility? How did you feel in terms of like the work life?
James: [00:28:44] Yeah, that's a really good question. So I thought was, it makes sense, right? If you look at the league tables and everything, Lazard is a much stronger, I guess, at least a group. I was in a much stronger group. Mm hmm. And I learned when I got there, I started learning right away, and I think it really did help me. Kind of. I mean, for the second time around, it also helped me interview for private equity, right? Because, you know, in banking, you can get caught in a group where you're just doing a lot of comps and updating Cap IQ and making presentations, or you get kind of group where you're working on live deals, building an operating model and, you know, doing real diligence, managing a process, right? And those are two very different experiences. You have, you know, very differently. And I think I got much more of that Lazard than UBS.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:30] And you got that within the first like four or five months. I got that within the first day.
James: [00:29:35] Well, not all that right, but I was on a deal as soon as I got there and it didn't stop.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:39] Wow. Ok, so you're immediately getting thrown into live deals. And so tell me when things start ramping up for you, recruiting for where you're at now. But was it like right away or was it six months in that you started like headhunters started calling and stuff?
James: [00:29:54] Yeah, exactly. Well, I think my plan was actually just to start interviewing for, you know, on a more traditional cycle again. So one year out. And so I started reaching out for headhunters about six months in Gautham comfortable kind of format and told them, you know, my preference would be to go on a traditional cycle within a year, I guess of then I guess at that time, yeah. But as I Was doing that, they kept passing a passing log of much of an immediate start.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:26] Yeah. So you were so they kept being they kept sending you immediate search stuff even. Exactly.
James: [00:30:31] And eventually I started biting and. Yeah, now I'm here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:38] Awesome and long term, you're thinking, MBA, what's the what's the goal? And I know a lot of people don't want to go with the NBA, it's been devalued.
James: [00:30:46] Yeah. When I first started banking, I did want an MBA.I thought there is, I Guess, the chip on my shoulder. I just wanted kind of a blue chip resume or blue chip kind of stamp of one of the big three business schools on my resume. But I think as I've started working it just I've seen this become less and less valuable. It's more about kind of references and how you perform on the job, and I just don't see it being. I just don't see the ROI there anymore at all.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:13] Talk to me a little bit about joining a new private equity shop in the middle of COVID. How do you feel like you know, your team at all, or is it all Zoom? Have you ever met in person?
James: [00:31:23] Yeah. This is the part you might have to cut now. I'm just kidding. Yeah, I'd say it's certainly not the best way to start any job, I guess, right? I think there's with any job, there's always going to be a learning curve and there's an aspect of camaraderie and getting know people, things like that that you only really get in an office and when you start a job and you miss all of that, right? So I Think it's just much more difficult to ramp up, much more difficult to kind of find that natural mentor to who you can go to ask those questions. You wouldn't want to ask anyone else. And yeah, I'm trying to think, I mean, I guess overall, it's not. You know, I wouldn't recommend it, but I mean, it's not all bad, I think it's still fine. It's just I think I certainly noticed that there were things that were more difficult to start or ramp up in than in previous jobs.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:15] I can tell you, yeah, the first year analysts in banking are like quitting. Everyone's quitting right away. Oh, really? Yeah. There's a high burnout rate from this past year, but things are getting better as things open up slowly.
James: [00:32:28] So yeah, I don't know. I haven't spoke to a ton of people about this, but I heard also banks are kind of adjusting their pay structure right to. But I guess keep people and also get people more interested.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:41] Oh yeah, quick promotes higher bonuses. Yeah, it's there. They have an attrition problem, so it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I mean, I think banks are getting a little more creative with what schools are looking at. I'm sure Georgia is going to get much longer. Look. Kids from there, I'm just because it's hard. They want, they want people who are going to stick around for more than just like a year, right? And anyways,
James: [00:33:09] Any recruiting at any particular school is going to do that. I mean, but
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:13] Yeah, exactly. Like it doesn't mean if you get a kid from wherever that they're not also going to be interested in PE.
James: [00:33:20] Yeah, well, I heard they're doing is, I guess when I was back in banking, it was more so 50 50 in terms of the cash to bonus split. But now it's more 80 20 or like seventy five twenty five or 80 20.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:32] The bulge brackets, the more stock. Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, that's painful. It's painful,
James: [00:33:39] But yeah, they're getting more of their salaries paid as opposed, to be honest. Oh yeah, that meaning higher base.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:46] Yeah. Yeah, it'll be interesting, man. It'll be interesting to see how it how it all plays out. Well, anyways, I appreciate all the time you spent with us any final words of wisdom, kind of looking back at your path that you've had. I almost call it like the. You're very comfortable, almost carving your own path. You're not only graduating a year later, but also doing the same thing when you had to get home and passing up a private equity offer. Like, that's pretty rare.
James: [00:34:15] Yeah. Any I guess you said words of wisdom. Yeah, any
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:19] Final words of wisdom, just looking back at your past like don't be afraid is the lesson here that we should take away? Like, don't be afraid when it doesn't line up, the path doesn't line up perfectly, like 1:58.
James: [00:34:30] I'd say, I guess I would say that. You know, I think, well, one, I think you have to be self-aware to know what you're working with and kind of if something's not, I guess, I guess. It's clearly going to be very difficult to achieve than a set smaller goals, but also for me, I think it was just important to stay persistent and really pursue what I wanted and give it kind of a, you know, a meaningful effort and cover. Make sure I was getting in contact people doing the right networking and also setting myself off to get where I wanted to go. And I'd say that, yeah, it's just important to. Because I guess thinking back into the day is right, like I remember talking to the school recruiter and I kind of told her, I remember I went to Houlihan Lokey one day and I told her, Yeah, I just went up there in a suit and asked them for an interview. And then she got a little bit kind of, I don't say frustrated, but she got a little bit concerned that that may have been a little bit aggressive and that she didn't want me to kind of, I guess, make give, I guess, a bad brand,C.j. if I did it the wrong way, right? Which I don't know if she did or didn't, right? But I think that you really just kind of have to be around this advocate and pursue what you actually want. And, you know, people are standing in the way and still give it your best shot, for
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:53] Sure. No, I like that. Yeah. Don't be afraid of like. Doing it the right is more important to try right than just to have to think of doing it perfectly or whatnot and meeting people, it sounds like you learned early on to to just be reaching out and be a little bit more aggressive.
James: [00:36:09] Yeah, yeah, and I guess it's just important to, you know, I tell people this that I I guess for me, it's important to find ways to differentiate yourself when everyone's kind of doing the same thing for sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:22] Well, I appreciate your time. Thanks for spending it and sharing your wisdom.
James: [00:36:26] Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:27] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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