WSO Podcast | E164: The $700k+ Head Trader in Natural Gas Shares his Career Path and Advice

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In this episode, Marcellus shares his path as a gas trader for over a decade. Learn how he survived graduating into the great financial crises, how he got his first break, the set up at a large energy company doing prop energy trading and how that was different from a trading house as well as 2 key pieces of wisdom he shares near the end on how to position yourself for a similar career.

 

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WSO Podcast (Episode 164) Transcript:

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:27] Marcellus shares his path as a gas trader for over a decade. Learn how he survived graduating into the great financial crisis, how he got his first break, the set up at a large energy

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:37] Company doing prop energy trading and how that was different from a trading house, as well as two key pieces of wisdom he shares near the end on how to position yourself for a similar career. Enjoy. Ok, Marcellus Wallace, welcome to the Wall Street Oasis podcast.

Marcellus: [00:00:58] Yeah, it's good to be here. Thanks, Patrick.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:00] So you'd be great if you could just give the listeners a short summary of your bio.

Marcellus: [00:01:03] Yeah, for sure, a bit about myself Basically moved

Marcellus: [00:01:08] To the East Coast from the Middle East when I was younger and then worked out through university, end up going to study computer science in university. They completed internships in I.t. programming and

Marcellus: [00:01:21] Didn't really enjoy it. So it's more of a business focus later on. Did some internships at Fortune 50 company, some trade desks, different products ended up doing it. One of those internships was on energy desk and I was in a natural

Gas group

Marcellus: [00:01:37] And some interesting things happened. I graduated in two thousand eight twenty nine fun times. So basically ended up graduating.

Marcellus: [00:01:46] Jobless opportunities opened up on the desk probably four or five months after I Graduated and

Marcellus: [00:01:55] Then moved out to do that and was trading, you know, out as

A desk analyst and was

Marcellus: [00:02:03] Moved to being a short term trader in about a year and a half from there and stayed with that company, large oil and gas company for nine years. And then after it had moved on to trading at a bigger one of the bigger merchant trading houses for a few years. And now I'm Over at a smaller hedge fund doing the

Marcellus: [00:02:21] Sort of same thing, mainly financial Energy trading, natural gas.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:25] Awesome. Thanks for that quick summary. So I think what's really interesting about your background is it's all been around energy trading or natural gas trading, but you've kind Of seen or had the

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:33] Perspective from several different types of firms and several different cycles, right? Um, yeah. So I'd love to I'd love to just before we kind of dive into that, let's go all the way back to like undergrad you, you said your computer science initially. What kind of attracted you to, you know, when you got on the trading desk for that internship? What made it kind of stand out? You said, Hey, I want to do this long term and then just give me a little more detail in terms of like when the financial crisis hit and you were going into like your senior year with no job. What was going through your mind and how did you kind of how did you like actually survive for five months before getting a job?

Marcellus: [00:03:12] Yeah, exactly. I mean, it was funny. I won't lie. Like, I think a lot of kids today are a lot more better prepared. And backThen and we weren't that much, but basically my family, friends have some connections and chi chi. And so my goal coming out here going into university is like, Get a job at Microsoft. That's like the great thing to do. And I had family who lived through the dot com crisis and things like that, and I really had no idea anything about business at all. And then finally, I really started enjoying my economics courses, and I also did not like the aspect of sitting somewhere and programming by myself all day. Yeah, so I sort of started to seek other things and I read monkey business and I was like, Oh, investment banking, this sounds so awesome. Well, it's what I want to do. And I switched to like more of a pure business focused and looking at business internships.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:07] It's probably when you found Wall Street Oasis.

Marcellus:[00:04:09] Exactly. Yeah, a similar idea. Yeah, around that time. But like again, I will lie like computer science. Your GPA gets pretty wrecked. So like I, even

though I had a decent GPA, my other courses like and coming from a semi target at that time and East Coast like it just was difficult to really break in.

So we can

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:32] Break into, like you're saying, break into like front office investment banking.

Marcellus: [00:04:36] Exactly, yeah, like our group, our school got like one or two banks who come in your sophomore year back then and after that it was like, OK, so you go work at Fortune 50, you start learning more About it or what? Five hundred or whatever. And I went there, it was just like, it was too slow, but it was like, OK, if that's the thing, that's really awesome. I got to do this. This know it's high upside money and time. All that and my Grades were just slipped a little bit and it

Was too difficult on my Next round of like internship time. And I missed out, you know, all the banks that quickly interviewed and then went down to some buy side and just couldn't quite get it. You know, it was always like the second or third candidate sort of thing. And then out of the blue was Like this Oh, this opportunity to do energy Trading and a totally different place and try this out. And literally, I had no idea about it, but I'm like, you know what? I'm going to get this finance on my resume. This is great. And then investment banking two years from now. And basically I went there and man, it

Was a great experience. Like, you know, I did not really understand at the time, like how many different facets of busy trading there is or besides money management. And I really didn't Understand what we have customer deals, are we not? But basically, my

Job was to do like more research for like fun and more fundamental Base trades around

Certain assets that the group had or just spread out like speculative trading physically. And and you Know, like this was

Patrick (CEO of WSO):[00:06:14] This was sorry to interrupt. This is for an internship like what, your sophomore junior year or something?

Marcellus:[00:06:19] Yeah, right after sophomore. Yeah, we had like more of like a semester structure. Got it. Yeah. So it was like a winter and internship. And yeah, and basically finish all my tasks. And back then we were so far away from big data. So these guys were just shocked. They'd be like, oh, give me a project, it's going to take him two weeks. Macro up some stuff and in my booth, there you go two days later and said they're bored waiting for like training data and so you can go to your trainer and ask questions and update the model or whatever. And I was like, Oh, this is really cool. It's really what I want to do. And this is sort of like some of the stuff I read and they wanted me to come back .But you know, this was right before the financial crisis. Everything was sort of hot still. And I was like, No, I want to try different things. I still really want to try to get into investment banking or like equities or something. Yeah. And then the following year, actually, when I was there, bear Stearns

Went down and I remember it was like a Thursday or Friday afternoon when we got an email and we're like, We're not trading with Bear Stearns anymore. And on Sunday morning, JP Morgan bought Bear Stearns. I'm like, Oh, this is this is interesting. And you know, they had some positions. They had to Clear up and move to basically JP's group now. So I was like, OK, whatever. Things are still not that bad. So, yeah, basically from there, I really tried to focus on moving The finance and my next Internship again just couldn't get into that banking Realm, EPA Stuff like that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:01] So still, you still ended up at a bulge bracket, though, right? For a little

Marcellus:v[00:08:04] Bit. Yeah, exactly. It was on a trading desk, though, and it was on a money Desk and The main reason of that job, like, I just want to learn like, you know, my energy trading fundamental job internship was more like building models, do this stuff. This is what we're doing. And then on the on the other side of the ball track, we literally were like, this is the guy who call every day. This is the money market rate. This is what you say, but you don't really try to. You're not even an intern. You're just like a person who works right. And I was like, Wow, this is totally different environment

Patrick (CEO of WSO):v[00:08:40] Because it was celp because it was sell side. And instead of the buy side, you weren't you weren't actually doing any analysis to figure out like what was a good side. You like, yeah, you know, maybe a piece of things or some macros do a little bit analysis, but your main job is you get us coffee, get us lunch, whatever you get up in the morning and you talk to These set of customers. And so at that point, we were starting to get really Bad like Late twenty two thousand eight and there was Already customers that are pissed off because they had own securities

Or asset backed securities or paper, and you just could hear it. They were so pissed off in their voice, but they still had to like, buy repos or something overnight. YeahAnd then similar Story like recruiting was absolute

Marcellus: [00:09:28] Dog shit that year. And literally, I think a month into My internship, lehman goes down. And I show up bosses like you should have been in like an hour early today why Lehman Brothers went down and we're not lending money to these us. It was a European firm. These US shops overnight, it doesn't matter what broker calls you, ignore them for the next five days as we fucking analyse everything. And yeah, so. So that was like, really wake up, call like, Oh my god, what did I do? Maybe we're all doomed. Maybe I have to go to law school like I really have no idea.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:14] So what's interesting is that you were there for five. It was like a long internship kind of through the. It sounds like they Kept you through that whole turmoil. I mean, they were probably paying you like, really low. So they did care.

Marcellus: [00:10:24] Right, exactly. They didn't care. They're just they wanted to actually just start from the regular time because they wanted like a seamless Like one Interns and next interns and sort of Thing. So they train you up. You come in like a few weeks earlier before, like other People start like the investment banking, you know, their internships. And yeah, it was just like very sell side. This is what this is mean. This is what you push. This is that you're basically a monkey. You're trading assistant. Exactly. Yeah. And you get yelled at if you do anything wrong or how

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:56] Did you get yelled at? Did you get yelled at a lot?

Marcellus: [00:10:58] Oh, yeah, I mean, the guy who ran the desk was a total maniac.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:02] Tell me, tell me a good story. Oh, I need so like one

Marcellus: [00:11:06] Time I like basically said. Um, because the lady was Leaving, I said, you know, OK, and then she's like, I'm leaving, and then I said the same thing. I'm like, OK, I'm going to try to be a little Friendly with this Fortune five hundred Treasury guy, and I'm going to be like, Oh, you know, I'm so-and-so, or I just came, I'm studying this, and he'd be like, and he like, Put me on hold and he's like, You are an intern. Your name. I don't even care what your name. Do not tell anybody your name. Nobody cares about what your name is. You have no nothing of this. You follow the rules. You've just given them the rates, whatever they want to do, you put in the spreadsheet. And I was like, Wow, OK, man. And that's your time. Just staying up, staying Late and like the Lawyer or whatever, come over and you're like, oh, yeah, you got to do this. And so he was like Listening to takes because they were getting Lawsuits all Over the place because of all the mortgage backed security, the best. And I'm like, this is just totally not what I expected, but leveraged buyouts are still pretty high, right? It was 08 and then we were working on a really big one and it seemed like, OK, the bank is going to be busy for like two years and then the government that things changed and that fell apart. And then like all the interesting deals left right. So literally now we're just lending money overnight and also receiving money Overnight reporting. And yeah, like, I

Patrick (CEO of WSO):[00:12:34] Mean, can you explain that to listeners who understand the seed money overnight reporting what kind of business that is just for just a quick 30 seconds so they know what that means?

Marcellus: [00:12:43] Well, sure, basically so. So like the bank has a series of desks, right? You have the equity desk Derivatives desk, you have the Fixed income Desk and then you got The money market, Prime brokerage desk and then the prime brokerage

With the equity desk. So our job was essentially other desks are really in place to really make the money or make the upside on the customer flow. And we're supposed to fund the entire Business, right? So if we're doing like a big deal with a pretty big private equity firm and a time like buy telecom or something, you know, they're going take a lot of coupons and this stuff well for the traders to manage that flow. They need like a significant amount of capital and margin With different counterparties. So every day we had a different number, we had the rates. And if we don't hit that number or we're long or short, that the New York or the Next office or Pick up the slack that way. So essentially, you're like Taking money from all the other desks like you're taking market from everybody else. But at the same time, you're like the most important part of the the bank. Because if we don't get this money All overnight, like nobody Else's business can be funded,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:56] You're basically like, you're helping manage the flow of capital so that there's like the Right balance each day.

Marcellus: [00:14:01] Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, and basically,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:05] Is there a specific name for that desk? I mean, I don't know, trading very well.

Marcellus: [00:14:08] Oh, it's just the money markets,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:11] The money market. Oh, the master repo desk. Ok, got it.

Marcellus: [00:14:14] So for instance, we were doing treasuries and then like I was doing repo, which was my Boss at the time. Yeah. And then all the interesting stuff nobody really wanted to do. But if they wanted to do it, the structures would come up with the product, the trading, the derivative guys, and we'd be just like, OK, we're going to sell this amount of commercial paper. That has a better rate for three months or whatever. But at that point, That business was pushed Aside and everybody was just

Doing overnight treasuries

And money. And that's what we were doing, essentially. So that's how that's all except you. The bank lends itself perfect. Yeah. And essentially. So Lehman goes down and I see four guys leave the office, barely say bye to each other, and I turn to the guy and he's like, Yeah, everybody's going to meet Him at the bar Later. And I was like, OK, so apparently this is bulge bracket trading. Like, literally, you bring your box to desk every day because Any time you have to fill that box, you've got to be out of there within 30 minutes. So it was all very Exciting

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:20] That was getting fired, people just getting fired left and right.

Marcellus: [00:15:23] Yeah, exactly. Like just out of nowhere. Like Boom. This is the world. And recruiting was super difficult for anybody to get around that time. Like, I have friends who are in consulting the best bank like Private equity now, who Literally had no job at that right coming Out like there are just no seats.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:41] And you were going into your senior year basically are your senior year. And just like,

Marcellus: [00:15:47] Ok, well, you just got To try to crush Your grades a little bit more in your senior year. And then just

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:54] What was your what was your GPA on a U.S. kind of scale

Marcellus: [00:15:57] For? Yeah, my GPA was around at three point six. Oh, not bad, but like, Yeah, but again, semi

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:04] Semi target non targets in my target, especially for the U.S. And then basically so, so tell me what's going on through your what's going through your head? So you're coming through your senior year, you're approaching graduation, you have nothing lined up. The whole economy is falling apart. You're heading into the great financial crisis. Are you thinking, OK, I'm moving home? What's the what's the plan and tell me how You ended up ended up With what looks like on paper? A pretty good job eventually, but it took you to get there. Yeah, I mean,

Marcellus: [00:16:31] It's funny how Like, there's a few Guys who, You know, really

Were planned and have the right internships, so they got like picked up right away. A lot of people are then looking at like, Oh, she could do a master's program that I actually really like senior year. Like, you know, you especially like if you're in business, more oriented program, you started taking like majority of courses like, right. So I was able to take majority of economics, the finance courses. And really, those are the ones that can easily do well in. So I was able to, like, really get my GPA up that way. And then just try to do like Keep whatever opportunities come around. I mean, I would say that at the time, a lot of us were not really versed in market networking. The way guys are now, it's they're now like, just like a career center would be like sending out somebody like look like right now is a really tough time. There's just not a ton of jobs out there. And, you know, once those available people want to talk about it and and we didn't really know how to track down alumni that much.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:32] Linkedin wasn't as big back then.

Marcellus: [00:17:34] Exactly. Yeah. And yeah, it was only doing stuff like that and our an online database was Just being really built out.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:42] So you were just on so trolling the entire time, Send private Messages, figure out anybody who

Marcellus: [00:17:48] Would be willing. Exactly. So, yeah, so we ended up like doing

Our CFA when our last semester or whatever, just to like, yeah, just like, Hey, you know what? We don't have a job Lined up like it's not, especially when you're taking those high end accounting and finance courses. Not that much more like it's sort of Similar stuff you Learn. Yeah, and it still able to have a lot of fun, you know, senior year, you can like, take a little bit relax, right? You sort of like. But that was a problem,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:17] But you were you were only unemployed for five months post-graduation, it looks. How did the hell? How did you get that? I mean, it seems like everyone would be going up.

Marcellus: [00:18:26] Yeah, that's a funny one. I mean, like when I graduated, basically want to move Home led. My dad did some like. Tutoring or whatever on the side, just stuff like that and just start applying to jobs and then, you know, my friends are like all I Got into this middle Market bang or I got into this or I'm doing this masters and you know, people are going to get plates. And I was literally at that point like, Oh yeah, I, I'll take anything. Investment banking, or I'll take anything like asset management, society, world. And I was going to like these back office sort of roles and asset management. And I was just like, OK, I guess I'm Just going to have to go to grad school or like or some later like, I see

Patrick (CEO of WSO):[00:19:08] You like you had some offers for back office and you're just like, I'm not going

Marcellus:[00:19:11] To least like getting interview right? Like, those were two little girls who were available. And then One day I called the guy that I worked for and I said, Hey, can you give me a reference for this role? And you know, it's a pretty big firm, and he's like, Oh, wow. And then and then he called me and he's like, Oh, we may have an opening coming up here, but someone just Got like moved groups for like a desk hours. And I'm like. Oh, wow, that's amazing. Yeah, sure. And they just by luck, it came about and I was able to, you know?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:44] So you were networking, you were networking, Which is not fine. Not with a lot of people.

Marcellus: [00:19:51] Just that. No, no. So I got lucky that way and came on to the desk and basically was a desk analyst there. And yeah, so and then at that point Again, like That time period, a lot of things change, right when I did my internship. People were different. Paths were Different. And I came back and I think we have a three Or six Months into my job and my boss changed Right away and they Cut the group down in half and basically margin. How did you

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:28] Survive all that? What were you getting paid like? You're getting paid like 50k.

Marcellus: [00:20:32] My pay was like seventy thousand. Oh, pretty good. Pretty good. Yeah, it was. And really, the Way you survive, just you're the cheapest person That they have and they're like, you don't want, that's going to survive it. It's going to kick out. Like all the people are like going to mid-level level and try to Retire the guys who've done well, right? Yeah, this is Kind of where you go, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:56] Retire the guys that are super expensive, that are like coasting.

Marcellus: [00:20:59] Exactly. Yeah. So that was so that was sort of the way. And basically, I was able to do that. And then when my boss changed, you know, I was able to start working a lot more with our internal fundamentals, guys, like because we have Specific people who would like their job was just to, you know, I mean nowadays mean machine learning all their stuff now. But just give

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:24] Me give me a framework, step back for a second. So this was a large energy company, right? Tell me what a trading analyst even does and what how is it set up? Is there like there's a separate trading kind of arm of this energy company that deals

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:38] With like flow? Like, is it flow trading? Like, what is it? Or is there any prop going on like where you're making directional bets? Or is it all just like just flow stuff? So tell me a little bit about how you started and just give me a framework because, you know, if people are as clueless as I am of the listeners or as close as I am, then it would be helpful.

Marcellus: [00:21:56] Well, there's not that much known, but yeah, for sure. I mean, basically, your job is like, it's just like a bank trading desk. You're the lowest man totem pole. But we have We have like a scheduling group that schedules all the physical assets, and some of those people are more senior people. Some of those people have different skills. So like they're Like more like Mid office, They sit beside the traders and everything. So you have to be like a conduit between them. Risk and the desk itself.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:27] Scheduler is called a scheduler, basically. On a scheduler, yeah, but yeah, it's like operations person.

Marcellus: [00:22:35] And then essentially like the way the desk is Set up is

You have certain marketers that were, well, first off, the company is like a full on subsidiary of this of these large energy companies. And their goal is to one Market the product and to the really proper trade around the right spots. And then ultimately, if you can find someone who's really, really good, they just like become more like, you know, as long as other parts of the business can handle. They have a property within the business, right? So like, our desk was like a hybrid of that where we had essentially a group out that was talking to customers on the ground level. Then we had senior Originators who are working with utilities on longer term larger deals. And then the Trade Desk gets all that flow every day, so they have to manage all that flow and manage and buy opportunistically Assets that can help do that. And then likewise, the

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:40] Buying contract selling contract you're buying and selling contracts for like, you know, give me an example. So like, you know, what are we talking about, like oil, oil and gas, like natural Gas, like you live in Northern California? So our

Marcellus: [00:23:54] West Group would be buying and selling

Pg&e Gate, Which is essentially gas that's being sent to Procter Gamble as a plant out there. Yeah. So they're like, literally like, OK, this is how much gas we use for a year.

We need to hedge it and then our person would be dealing with that.

Now, if they want to do something more complicated, like, Oh, we're building a new plant or we're Want to take out pipe From Arizona to there because we think the Arizona market is, then they'd be working with our originator to go and purchase the gas from our producer and then move it there. And then the Trade Desk job is to like, value all of this stuff, right? So essentially, you

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:38] Said, Sarah, you said value or evaluate

Marcellus: [00:24:41] Like value, all of it, right? So essentially like the we need to price it up. And if we need to work with Structures, we need to work with structures. If not, we just give what the price is today. The price for winter Gas and the Pge, is that right? Right.

Patrick (CEO of WSO):[00:24:58] And some sort of spreads, some sort of spread or margin on it so that you guys can protect yourself and flow it off? Exactly. And that's

Marcellus: [00:25:03] What our Originators and our salespeople Would do. So that was the exactly sort of the business. And then like, for instance, now we are having a good year or our sales guys are doing well or we know we're having this Procter & Gamble deal. The guy has a great relationship. Ok, we know we're going to get this deal in two months so we can start to build a position around that. Ok, we think sounds good is going to be this. And then from there, that grows to like some of the more senior guys we're just able to like financially trade, right? Because essentially,

They're either going to give their positions to the asset side guys or they're just or are they going to make money and nobody asks questions.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:48] So it sounds like initially it was like four years kind of learning and the flow side of things doing more of like helping the operations side. And then you became a senior Gas trader where it was more like trading prop Sessions in just in just basically saying, Hey, just go make money. You know what you're doing now?

Marcellus: [00:26:07] Exactly. Yeah. So again, we were

Very large, pretty profitable at the time. And essentially they when you are Running your asset book and they want To start moving you up, they're like, OK, now We give you your own prop book And you can put positions in your prop book and you can put positions in and you can help manage the asset book. And I started to mainly being focused on that. Like, I've always been more interested in fundamentals of the market, be it whatever the product server that way. So that's when

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:37] And that's where you can make a lot more money, right? Do they give you a percentage of the.

Marcellus: [00:26:41] That's right. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:42] So tell me how you the first four years kind of doing the more operational you went from scheduler eventually to trader or like?

Marcellus: [00:26:49] No. So I actually skipped scheduling.

It was a bit lucky. It's sort of similar to working in a bank environment. They sort of move me from being a desk analyst. So like right away to like helping the fundamental Guys come up with daily fundamental Views for our traders, Right? So again, if we're looking

At San Francisco, I'm helping Figure out how power markets are moving San Francisco because our guys aren't well-versed in power. I'm not an expert in it, but I'm helping build models to help them gain more knowledge on that And an essentially that. So like I and this is just

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:22] How do you even do that? How do you even learn that? Just watching other guys and gals doing it.

Marcellus: [00:27:27] It's mainly watching other guys. You go to a few Conferences and then you just Delve into the data, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:34] Financial models, it's like supply demand dynamics, like, are you trying to project out basically what's coming down the pipe in the next three few months, whatever that kind of thing?

Marcellus: [00:27:42] Absolutely. Yeah, all commodity trading is

Literally just supply Demand curves. And then so here we're building Excel models, where historically I can go on the government EIA site and I can get what the demand is in California gas. And then from there, I can get an Idea of what is known Northern California Gas and then how much of that has powered. Is that so building those kinds of models, figuring out where those pinch points in the market, what month it is? And so that's so that's essentially the work you do. Cool. So tell me about say, I

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:14] Mean, you're you were there for almost seven years kind of going from. You know, gas trader to senior gas trader going from, you know, eventually prop.

Marcellus: [00:28:24] Yeah, exactly. So basically, I would say get you, you say like three or four years and I basically more focused on prop trading. So the bigger upside there does

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:34] Tell me, Yeah, tell me about money there. So what were you doing? You made 70 k your first year. Did it just gradually kind of bump up or the big bonuses? How does it Look like we

Marcellus: [00:28:42] Were like, I would say 70 K and then like really because we had a pretty good desk. Those like getting good deals To begin with, and then we had talented traders. On top of that, like A-list bonuses were like 50 to 70 percent, depending what market you're in. I mean, maybe 30 percent if you're really low bucket. Yeah. And then and then when you got into the junior cash flow trader roles, you move like now you're like moving up to like more of a senior person in the company. So you're like approaching like probably like a hundred ten thousand salary under five, maybe. And then they're like, again, a lot of the bonuses are like bucket structures. So they they're your bonus is big, but a really good year for everybody. They try to keep it, keep you around like one time salary as your bonus, really, if you're awful low bucket, your group is you're going to be like 50 percent of that. And then and then top bucket can go to like Two to two to three times salary.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:45] Got it. So you're basically you're progression over the seven years was like seventy your first year, maybe getting close to six figures in the next few years or a little over six years.

Marcellus: [00:29:54] Yeah, I would say once I was like a more senior guy who

Manage the assets and stuff, the magic two three years, I was probably around

Three hundred to four hundred in a really in a good year. Three hundred to four hundred thousand. Yeah, OK. And then in our like One of our bango years, somebody Calls it the polar vortex. I don't know if you were living the what was living On the East Coast, New York and stuff. Q. One of twenty fourteen was super duper cold in New York, Boston. Twenty fifteen as well. And yeah, I mean, at that Point, you know, the guys who are more senior were probably approaching a hundred thousand level. And then of course, that stands above that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:36] And why was why was why was the weather being so cold? I mean, I can speculate, but obviously prices would increase. But were they had they made correct directional bets? Is that why? Like, I mean, because like if you're just doing flow and you're just kind of making sure things are even you shouldn't really care if it goes up or down, right? But you're saying like they had enough, they had enough ability to see that there was this polar vortex coming and they kind of positioned the book appropriately to take Advantage of it. I mean,

Marcellus: [00:31:03] Truly, I think Goldman was the top shop that year. I don't think anybody ever sees Polar Vortex coming. You just sort of like put on what you think is like best value Treat. And then some people, Depending on how gutsy they are or whatever. And then you add, some of it is luck, right? So that year, the weather all lined up. Supply was looking low for ourselves because we bought assets that would do OK in certain years. They, like, just blew out that year. So like, we own storage and we were able to really put on more risk around our storage and we were able to do.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:41] So what if? What if? Yeah, what do you think if, if it was the opposite, let's say abnormally warm year,

Marcellus: [00:31:47] What would it look like? Like, you would have taken on big losses normally warm year you would barely like, you'd almost lose like 10 percent of your the money you paid for the storage. So then you've really got to like trade against that. And then the good prop guys do well while other people just depend on hopefully customer flow or I mean, that's who you are.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:09] You are directionally always hoping for colder.

Marcellus: [00:32:14] Or now. Yeah, I mean, it depends on the setup, I mean, I've been short a lot of my career. Natural gas has had a very long term Downturn since I went into the industry. But yeah, I mean, the absolutely Like it's all. It's just like the guys who, you know, had a Huge hedge fund like equities. Just it all evolves always easier to make Money than the cell wall. And yeah, we went to like gas prices went to like in Chicago, I don't know, 50, 60 dollars at your New York, higher one hundred and fifty. Maybe one day I can remember. And yeah, we had assets that we were able to take advantage of that. And then on top of that, because once you're doing well, you can just add on Risk and the company's not asking questions, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:00] So let's move on because you have other interesting jumps in your career and I want to get listeners, I want to keep you too much longer. Real quick. So you're doing really well. They're almost seven years. You're now seeing your gas trader. It sounds like you're making really good money. Why jump? Why look for something different So,

Marcellus: [00:33:16] So like in those Kind of companies?

So what happens is, and it's sort of, I guess, happens in the bank side two is you really have to keep moving up and you have to keep like it becomes bigger. Politics gain bigger story that way, and you have to start to like, really succeed mentoring people, all this other things and they don't really care. Like if you're doing that on Twitter, because at the end of the day, if we're working on a two hundred million dollar origination deal over 20 years with India, that's going to Outweigh anything like Most traders do. So they just view in the business that Way, And I didn't really fit that mold. So then at that point, you start to look at, OK, do I go to more and merchant structure where you sort of know like what the costs are, things like that coming in,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:08] But you said you sorry to interrupt you, said you didn't fit that mold. Can you unpack that a little bit like was it more becoming more of a sales role unless of a trading role?

Marcellus: [00:34:16] Exactly. It becomes more of a sales Role, more of

Like personality, make sure everything's OK, politics. Yeah, I get it. Oh, thanks. Because it's the company's Brand, right, and

I mean, it's the same with a lot of banks now and shops where it's just like at the end of the day, we they have The bazillion dollar balance sheet and they can do those really big deals and nobody else can. So it's going to be very difficult for anybody to compete with them. But at the same time, they're like, well, is it really the originator, the trader that special or is it just our business, our brand? And so that way I was just like, OK, there's not a lot of I don't I don't think I can go on to being head of trading or whatever because there's I'm going to be stuck in meetings all day and I'm going to be on Zoom and be talking, OK. This person had an argument with this person and we lost this customer. Why? And I was just like, I'm not fit for that. Got it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:14] Ok, so what was yeah, what was your thought process? What are the exit opportunities of a senior gas trader at a large energy company?

Marcellus: [00:35:22] I will. I actually Start Not like because you're pretty niche at that point. So it's like you've got to find the right place that works for you offers the Right upside, but. once we had the full verdict in those years, news also started to come out, what About like how people pay? And you started to see like, Ok, these places Where these career make it to the top, be ahead of creating and get the hype, high salary, everything. Um, they don't pay that well based on other places better, it's just smaller, more nimble, more performance based. And at that point, I started to look around because I'm like, Hey, you know what? I'd rather bet on myself more so. And talk to various hedge funds, talk to other people. And also banks were exiting the space, so merchants were gaining more of a foothold in. And it ended up going to one of the trade houses, one of the larger trade houses out there, and they were just in the span of like really growing their gas and power business. And I think when I joined, they're like the Second and third year in that they really own Fiscal assets and everything. And like a much different mindset, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:42] Basically, explain to me when you say trading house, what? What does that mean? Like, do they have their own capital from LP? They raising capital from LP and trading it? Is it their own prop money that they're trading? Tell me how that how that works.

Marcellus: [00:36:55] So I mean, so the big trading houses are like the traffic area of the total area. Those kinds of shops that those guys And Cargill or Some other ones in there to Castle, consider one now. So those kinds of shops and essentially the guys who own the business have some of their own money in similar to like a hedge fund structure. Yeah, but Then they are buying these assets that make billions of dollars in revenue every year. So they need to borrow A ton of money from various Banks and their core business Is turning over These assets and making a bunch of money. But because They started doing really, really well, they're able to then Put on Their own positions and they're able to basically take way more risk. Right, so.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:51] So explain it to me. So like, let's say, let's say the play, the hedge fund you went to, it's like, we'll call it a trading house. You're saying, let's pretend this this people who founded this have a hundred million dollars. Mm-hmm. You're saying they would then leverage that up to have buying power of what, a couple of billion or something like that?

Marcellus: [00:38:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:09] They'd go out. They'd purchase Like they'd they bring in traders who are good and then start playing in the market, right? And basically, yeah, yeah.

Marcellus: [00:38:18] So like our main, our like that trade house is main focus is trading and they own like food storage everywhere. And then they own food vessels everywhere and then they own like pipeline capacity. And then when we were moving into gas and power, we were taking large positions in California and the Northeast. Producers were doing a lot of shale gas, things like that. And you and you really get these originators come from the banks because really, it's a Lot of these businesses were bought from the back banks and they're working on, you know, like so like. I like the oil and gas. Are these trading

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:56] Houses that they're not buying the actual underlying companies or buying positions and contracts

Marcellus: [00:39:02] For exactly so. So like, for instance, they would be like, we're offering Credit to these producers And then we're going to offset their credit the market and we're going to manage all of Their assets. And all they're going to tell us every day is how much gas they produce and they're going to balance that. And oil and gas supplies or the gas companies also do that. But there are some riskier deals out there, but they can't touch or like they have with credit. That's that. But these guys keep coming like Trafigura or these

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:33] Guys can come in. These guys can come in and do a higher risk. Exactly. Often make higher

Marcellus: [00:39:38] Margin, which the banks used to do. And so

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:42] The banks can't do it as much, maybe because all the prop trading restrictions and stuff like that.

Marcellus: [00:39:46] Exactly. Volcker Rule was the big One, right? Yeah. And yeah, so they would be like this originator would do a 40 million dollar deal. Well, somebody's got to manage it. So now you have an entire imprint there, and now they're like, well, we actually have a ton of data. We have a ton of analytics like we just want, like we want people who can come in and make 20 million a year or something on top of that. And that's when they start to really grow out. And I mean, some of them, it all depends like if if the head of if the company is owned by forgacs, right, and they know owned by what? Oh, by what? Sorry, if it's owned by like three or four Guys at the top. And they all know that like we're going to cover our costs this year. We close this big deal last year. They can risk their Half their you right Like, like, like. And again, I saw that as oil and gas companies giant the big guys, too. But there was at least like a little more OK, like explained. Or, you know, if it was a big loss, it was because we were working on building a power plant that didn't happen or wasn't headstrong or something. This one I literally like, we're just like, Oh yeah, we like this position. We're going maximal and you're like, well, he owns a company

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:05] Like Super Super Concentrated Bets, basically.

Marcellus: [00:41:08] Exactly. And that was and that was and that was it. And then so basically, they wanted some people like myself to come in and help either build a new business or help the current physical businesses. And then you do that. That's like, congrats to you and your salary. Now we expect You to trade on top of that, but we're not going to give you really like it's not like going to a millennium or citadel or somebody said, we're going to give you these very specific risk rules and this and that. It's more like. When you're down three million dollars, we'll call you.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:48] Yeah, it's like it's the Wild West, they're basically saying, Hey, just go. They're saying, Hey, how much? So what's your pal, though? Like, how much money do you have to trade with? So like, you paid for your salary?

Marcellus: [00:41:59] Great. Now, so like your boss typically is going To be like two million Nowadays in those kind of places. And then that's the thing because like, again, two million a year. Yeah. Like so you have To make two money, probably to pay back your seat, which is like. And then and then

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:17] Why is it? Why is it two million dollars? It's just for the access to all the markets and all the analytics.

Marcellus: [00:42:22] Oh, like, that's the thing. Again, it's all discretionary for some of them do give you a percentage. Write it in, but a lot of it is discretionary, and it's really based on how many businesses we have, how many People we have. And do you believe in the brand Long term? Right? And so essentially, I don't

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:41] Sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean by like when they when you say it cost two million for your seat? Are you saying like it's just for the trading house? This is this is their cost to kind of put you in that seat to give you everything?

Marcellus: [00:42:53] Yeah, that's their view. So their view is that we have more traders in your group. Your costs are eight million and then you have your back office, your middle Office, you're counting your lawyers everything. So you guys got to cover all this or nobody's getting a bonus. Got it. And that's and like, if we had a really Tough year in China, you know, we may lose your Seat costs a little. And if we had a really awesome year in Germany, we may bring it down. So like a lot of the larger guys are now fully Structured Discretionary. That way, so few of them are still formulaic. But like you know, when I Came in, a majority of them were like, just like, Look, this is what people get paid, and you basically would have to wait for a good year because then you can call up a head hunter, call all your buddies and be like, This is what I got like, Oh, that makes sense. Or whoa, that's awesome. You're the best thing in town because it was discretionary.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:55] So they were paying. The $2 million wasn't payment to you, necessarily, but it was just the cost overall. So how much were they paying you based similar to like what was it like one twenty one fifty, something like that?

Marcellus: [00:44:06] Very similar to majority of your buy side roles where you're making two hundred and two fifty base. Yeah. And then if you're going to make more than that, you'd better like be like Bringing in an actual full on physical business because they're like, well, you've got to have like some constant Cash flow, right?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:23] Explain, explain the physical Business aspect to what do you mean by that?

Marcellus: [00:44:27] We saw, like by my boss would manage a lot of producer deals. And because again, we are at this trade house, we are able to take credit with like private equity backed, you know, like really crappy companies. But they're just producing crappy gas that nobody really wants and getting cash flow. So all they want to do is they just want to have so they want some exotic hedge and they want to make sure their costs are fixed.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:56] If you're bringing if you're bringing that deal into the you're saying if you're bringing that deal

Marcellus: [00:44:59] For us, for us to manage that like anybody, you have to own physical assets and you have to like buy the gas from this. I mean, essentially on Twitter, it's called ship cokes. You have to buy

From these tacos and you have to move it to the market every day. So you have to hire a scheduler if that scheduler doesn't show up to work. We have we have $2 million of risk on the day. So somebody else in the office better do it. Yeah. And you so like

Once you take all of those responsibilities, they're willing to give you a bit more of a higher base. And stuff like that makes sense to be more on par with like the head desk, the head that's got on a bank or a Large gas company. Did you

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:39] Bring any of that business or were you just really more just a prop kind of lone

Marcellus: [00:45:42] Gun? I was really more like a prop guy, but

I did do some of that stuff when I was at the oil and gas company. So like, I would go and be like, the guy who, you know, won the private equity guy wants to really.

And again, it's not like the really good investment, guys. It's more like the operational right. So they want to come in and they want to be like, OK, like, really? What are we doing? Why are you trying to get me to do this? I'd be like, the guy comes in and be like, look, this is what we see in the market. So what the vendors see? Get them closer to deal stuff, that sort of thing. Or if or if he brings up new things, then go back to my boss and propose things that way. Some other guys, they bring in direct business.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:25] And it sounds super lucrative, man. Like, so what's your best? Do you mind sharing like what your best year is and then like what your average is in the last like, say, three or four years? It sounds like you were already doing really well at your previous the large Energy company, as I said,

Marcellus: [00:46:38] Like that the Bigger you’re the Oil and gas company was like the

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:43] Vortex year.

Marcellus: [00:46:45] The vortex here was like, you know, we a lot of us have some figures. And you know, I would Say in like Top bucket here, where it's not a polar vortex, you could pull down Six hundred U.s. sort of to seven hundred.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:03] So you're saying you made did you make over six hundred one year? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so like now is it is like in a more normalized year, is it closer to five? Or is it still six, seven because you're I mean, you're you're a head trader somewhere, right?

Marcellus: [00:47:18] So yeah, yeah, yeah .But yeah, so like the trading house, the way they work is essentially, as I said, you have unwritten discretionary, you get 10 percent of your book. And then once you covered it, two million or whatever your cost. Everything from there you get 10 percent. And really, they're looking To hire guys make 10 every year, which is not easy, always if you're not making five. They probably will not want to keep you around unless they really like you came from somewhere. And then, you know, there's people out there just, you made 40 50. So you can think about how much money that comes in

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:54] 40 or 50 million and of making 10 percent because they're

Marcellus: [00:47:56] Clearing four or five million

In the year. Exactly. So tell me about like, is this? Is this Normal? These things never seem. I heard another trader Way back like, I think episode 30 something this is like 160. So my memory is I remember him getting paid well over four hundred pretty early on in his career as well. Is this are you just talented? Is this getting into this industry to super lucrative? And tell me how tell me about the risks associated with obviously I would actually say like it is like other by side roles where it can be really lucrative. The only difference is like, I see, like a lot like now With these like equity sort of path guys go banking hedge on this that unless you go to a mall Manager or something, you have a designate. They really have Difficulty tying your compensation to the book while on the commodity Side, if You are good or if And really The head of the company, you know, he was like swinging hundreds of Millions of dollars, days or weeks like, you know, it's possible. So like, it's more like He actually, these guys are actually like just this crazy smart ass, somebody who's like top hedge fund guys. So they have the foresight to see, you know, three years Europe looks super tight, and I need a European team by three years. So I'm going to start hiring these guys. And if I have to bring someone from a bank or someone, I'm going to pay them a higher base rate. But by the time we get there? Um, and we're up eight million or whatever. Beginning a year and he sees a bigger opportunity, he's going to be like, All right, if I had the right people, they're going to wrap it up. But the wrong people, I'm going to get rid

Of them and maybe bring in the right people. And really, it sort of becomes their position right again. They're getting 90 percent of that right, right? So so like, that's where I would say, like, we've had some very unique opportunities. But I mean, I met some guys who are like, you know, they'll never help manage anyone, build a book, anything like that. But they're just like talented traders and they know the industry and they can, you Know, put on the right bet at the right Times and Develop that. This year, we had some really unique events. We had a polar vortex in Texas that really just knocked up the whole Market. But we also had a crazy, cold Japanese winter and in Europe being cold. So. So like if Commodities have actually definitely come back into the forefront after 10 15 Years here and call it the Super cycle as some people Call it out there. So so I Do think there's definitely like room for people who are good that aren't well compensated high in the next few years. But I would say in the downturn years. You know, like a lot, you'd have to be like almost a best senior person to be able to get like 10 percent or something and be able to have the ability to put on the risk, like at a millennium or something to make at least Five to 10. I mean, If you're not making that there, it's not worth their time. Really, what good time. But ideally, yeah, they want us. They want to find the one guy who can rap to 50 or whatever.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:24] Yeah. So tell me, but tell me a little bit about like just for kids listening to this and like, how do I even get started into this? You know, they're at school and they're thinking, Hey, this sounds better like getting out on the buy side of like actually trading and taking directional bets. This sounds really exciting. How would they even go about doing that? Like, what's the best way to set themselves up?

Marcellus: [00:51:42] Yeah, so for sure. I mean, Nowadays, like all trading, We are more quantitatively leaning and we have a Lot more data stuff. So like, you definitely want to have not just economics background, but you do want to have a baby. I mean, like at least some sort of like a code or do some Python or something like that

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:05] On data analytics

Marcellus: [00:52:06] Skills? Exactly. But this is going to help you get through all of the data, right nowadays. And then after that, it's just like, OK, Now. Is like, are you really interested in the physical side of the business or the paper side? If you're really interested in the paper side? You you're just doing the exact same thing as the guy who wants to start out of the buy side at point seventy two or what? Right? You're reading the buy books to come up with investment ideas you're following in the market. If you at some point you're like, No, I really am more interested in the Physical side. Then you either have to figure out, are you really soft skill sales person Or are you going to be more of like a data heavy sort of person? And if you're more of a data

Heavy sort of person, You just have to start targeting those Specific firms, right?

So like there's a couple of oil and gas companies out there who are like known to

Hire the top people from schools, boston and places like that. But really, they'll take anybody right who is calling it. Ok, well, can

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:24] You name some of those firms

Marcellus: [00:53:25] For the list? Yeah, sure. So like the biggest, the

Biggest, the best-known one On the gas Side is BP. Bp is basically like, you go there two three years and like, you have the ability to come a trade or after or you just will gain enough Knowledge from all the guys there That you'll find your foot somewhere like gold and silver industry. And they'll do similar things. They'll like run you through scheduling through things like that. Then you have other firms like a trafigura who will literally say, We just want someone smart who's interested in the physical side, but understands That you're not probably going to make Money for, like for you. And if you're willing to really learn the business, we will give you all the tools major a niche expert in that and

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:11] Then try to figure out, right? Try figure

Marcellus: [00:54:14] Is categories like very, very hard core by the graduate program that they

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:18] Give more than just energy the right they do across.

Marcellus: [00:54:20] It's like they do. That's my point. They may just they May put you like on a silver desk when you want to trade power or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And then some of the banks will still recruit that way, looking for specific people that way. But like, for instance, power like they'll look for a lot more quantitative people because there's a lot more at times, a lot more data. They're looking at lot more stuff that do.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:45] Do you feel threatened at all? Because are you? Would you consider yourself a data person? Do you feel threatened at all about these younger kids coming up with much better data, background and analytics?

Marcellus: [00:54:54] I do at Times, like I do find it funny. Like I would say, I use some tools and I think like my boss at the time would get reports from like seven analysts at the oil and gas company who were like the specific analysts in each area. And those guys are probably running Excel sheets that have Like 10 10 data tabs behind them and massive macros. And there are summarizing all this or something it. And now I can literally sit here and go through, like All of my models and I'm like, I guess like, we're not super sophisticated, we're not a set of our millennium like on the cutting Edge with like big data these days. And I can do all that stuff literally like it's just it's pretty Wild. So but like I think it's just going to get more so that way. And then a lot of these firms know they've lost their information edge. So like, for instance, there probably was a guy at retail or wherever who rode in some spreadsheet for 10 years like this is what this does. And somebody inherited that spreadsheet, and at some point they somehow it's found its way somewhere. And they have like Gone to some really smart computer science, you know, like computer engineer kid. And they're like, Look, if you recreate this and they have. So now we literally have vendors who just are doing big data stuff like WoodMac and all these guys. So I do think, yeah, absolutely. Any part of trade going to have to be data works In the future, that's just a part of it. And the information edge is getting harder and harder to take. So there's upside and downside of that, right? But but yeah, so for sure, that would be. But yeah, as I said, they would have to target those sort of specific sort of programs that way. And then and then really be willing to if you're going to if you're going to be like a fiscal side, which can, as I said, like the polar vortex, one day gas is trading Seven dollars next day, trading 30 dollars, the next day trading 14. You know the you're going to be able to buy physical assets that just let you

Capture that arbitrage every day, right? To some extent, like, you know, our sense. But those kinds of People like they're not going To like, they're going to have to be people, You know, take two years, be well Versed in the industry, so forth that way for ourselves, like we, we target kids who our data heavy data interested sort of similarly. And then at the same time, you know, you have an overall interest, so you may Not be physically there scheduling it all the time or touching it. But you have an idea like, Hey, look like this power plant actually eats a bunch of people's home and know if this nuclear plant goes down like this is a Real situation. So we still do look for that interest. But I would say the larger majority of the larger trade houses, they really do try to find someone who's like, Look, I'm going to sit here, learn Physical business ins and then after two or three years, get my chance. So that way makes sense.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:21] We appreciate you sharing all this, any final words of wisdom for the listeners out there. There's a how to prep themselves before we call it.

Marcellus: [00:58:30] Yeah, for sure. All I would say is I do think, especially with now with the competition out there, I just think like I, I do think like your GPA is so far. So really, I treat it like a job your first couple of years in school because now kids are getting sophomore internships and so forth. So like, I get it, we all want to have fun. I did, too, but I had a lesson that I had really learned early on that side. And then I think the other side like yourself, other people change that in. We get into more of a data intensive world or technology reaches us. I do think. You know. I used to hear from grandparents Or whatever the best time is, high school Is awesome and then high school is OK and then college, no college is the best time of your life. Nothing gets better for us. And then when you start making money, when you're younger, you're like, OK, I can actually do a whole bunch of stuff like, I have to be willing to quit my job and, you know, lose money for six months. But if I save this money, I can do all this other stuff that I never imagined I could do. And now, I mean, I'm seeing people I know for, I would say, in the thirties or late thirties who are completely finding a passion later in life and stuff like That. So I would say I don't think others like you like, we are getting to a world where we are more technology and you're not just going to be. Or looking for that same company for like 10 years or whatever, so. So think of it that way. Don't like put so much pressure on yourself like, oh man, like, oh, I was like, I didn't go that party last week and I didn't get this interview. And nothing works like, well, think about it. Like, actually, people are already finding their passion way later in life now.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:00:22] So, yeah, if you don't find your path right away, it's not the end of the world. Yeah, it could be harder, but it life is long, right?

Marcellus: [01:00:31] Exactly. Yeah, that's the way to go,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:00:32] To have some fun and hopefully find your way. Great, man. I really appreciate your time and I really enjoyed the chat. Thanks so much. Thanks a lot. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.