WSO Podcast | E172: Buyside High Yield Credit role out of Duke Masters of Management Program

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In this episode, S shares her story from India to the one year Duke Masters of Management program. We learn how she landed a role as a buyside analyst at a high yield credit shop, how she made the transition from the office in the US to London, why she got promoted and why she is now back in the US at Kellogg doing an accelerated MBA.

 

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WSO Podcast (Episode 172) Transcript:

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me! As I talked to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into

different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, S shares her story from India to the one year Duke master's and management program. We learn how she landed a role as a buy side analyst at a high yield credit shop. How she made the transition from the office in the U.S. to London, why she got promoted and why she is now back in the U.S. at Kellogg doing an accelerated MBA. Enjoy. All right. Thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast. All right, thank you for having me. It would be great if you could give the listeners a short summary of your bio.

S: [00:01:02] Sure. So I'm currently an MBA student at Kellogg, and my previous experience includes having worked in asset management across the fixed income and leveraged loan universe, and I worked both in London and in the U.S. in terms of my education. I did my undergrad back in India and then I pursued a master's at Duke to sort of move over to the U.S. kind of start working in finance.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:28] Awesome. Ok, so then right out of Duke UK, that's when you started your fixed income career.

S: [00:01:33] Right? Yeah. So I started working in a kind of two year junior analyst position at my side firm. And yeah,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:43] Perfect. All right. Let's go all the way back to undergrad in India. Tell me, was finance always kind of on the radar when you're in your first year? Did you know this is what I was meant to do?

S: [00:01:52] Um, so unfortunately, like a lot of, you know, kind of stereotypes, I think my parents did want me to try to pursue a science or engineering or medicine field, and then I just we moved at kind of very non opportune time during my high school. So I just the academic rigor was too intense for me, but I did find that I took a couple of accounting classes. I enjoyed learning about the story behind numbers, so that kind of pivoted me to sort of pursue a career in finance, and that's where I ended up pursuing my major in business and finance.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:28] Yeah. Awesome. And that was what like your second or third year you had to kind of declare it when you're there? No. So you end up having to actually do it before… you like enroll. So you kind of need to know, like within by 12th grade, you need to know whether you can do like science, humanities or like engineering or business. Where your parents upset with that. Or are they kind of eventually came around to it?

S: [00:02:52] No, my dad watches all of CNBC, so he's like, Yeah, finance is a good career. So you supported that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:58] That's cool. That's cool. Ok, so you're it's you're coming up on around twenty fifteen and when's the idea to come get a masters in the U.S. kind of going through your head?

S: [00:03:08] Yeah. So I wanted to. So I'm originally from the Bay Area and I wanted to kind of move back to the U.S. after my undergrad and I realized I needed to be a bit more attuned to kind of the market in the U.S. and kind of more sharpen my business acumen skills. So that's why I pursued a one year master's program at the School of Business. And that kind of really helped me understand, you know, the nuances of banking and investments across the industry. So that's how I ended up moving across the world.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:42] That, yeah, was it? Can you talk a little bit more about the master's in management studies? Because I feel like that's not as well of a discussed degree as the MBA, can you? It's a one year program, but what are the typical like exits from that? Is it mostly international students? I know master's in finance tends to be mostly or about 70 percent international students looking to like get the visa and sometimes stay here in the U.S. Can you talk to me a little bit about that, the placements and just typically what happens?

S: [00:04:10] Sure. Yeah. So it's it is part of the business school where they also have like full time MBAs, executive MBAs and other programs. You're right, the the master's in management is sort of a newer kind of concept that's been coming up over the last few years. It is targeted more towards students who have less than two years of work experience. And I would say, I think from my program, it was split pretty evenly between domestic like domestic U.S. as well as international students. Yeah. And you know, the people out of my cohort, they went into a variety of industries, whether it's consulting, some people like banking private equity a little bit less. So because I think recruiting for those industries is typically happens out of the undergrad in the U.S.. But I think a lot of firms are starting to open up to this as another potential pool of students who are sharp on business skills as kind of another recruiting pathway.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:09] Did you look at like other master's in finance programs before you came over to Duke?

S: [00:05:13] I did. Yeah, I did look at a couple of finance specific courses as well, and I just kind of realized I wanted to get a bit more broader overall picture like do some marketing courses as well on top of just pure finance?

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:26] Did you think you were going to go into like, you know, fixed income ever? Or did you ever think of that as a potential option out of it? Or what was fixed income?

S: [00:05:34] Probably, no. I mean, we did have one capital markets course which introduced bonds to me for the first time, and I did want to work in the investment universe. And I think at the time, investment banking was sort of what I was looking at. But I think because of the way that program is structured, you kind of

Patrick (CEO of WSO): Missed the recruiting timeline for it, the recruiting for banking more in the fall. But because it's this one year, I haven't really been able to pick up on

getting the right recruiting skill set to be ready for fall. Yes, you wouldn't recommend international students that want to land investment banking to do this one year program because they're kind of miss the recruiting boat.

S: [00:06:14] Yeah, I would say if if you're looking if you're very targeted at firms which have a much structured kind of you recruit only in the fall kind of program, probably, no. Yeah, I would say there is a shift in the industry, more so on the investment management or even the buy side by side to look at more spring recruiting. And that's kind of how I ended up with my position.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:38] Mm hmm. Very cool. Ok, so talk to me a little bit about that. So you're here. You've made the trip. What's it Like? I mean, you said you're from the Bay Area originally, so it's probably not like a super culture shock, but you're now East Coast of the U.S. and tell me a little bit about that and just how you adapt it. And I assume since it's only one your program, you had to start thinking about what you were going to do right after.

S: [00:06:59] Yeah, I think I mean, for me, I did want to ask

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:03] Real quick, Were you born in the U.S.? You didn't have to worry about a visa or anything like that.

S: [00:07:07] I wasn't born in the U.S., but I did not have to worry about a visa.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:10] Okay, you had citizenship? Yeah, yeah. So, OK, so you're basically. Have a little bit more less panic because of that, probably that a lot of the international students have to deal with. So you're basically coming, you're coming toward what the middle of the year and you're starting to recruit or did you start recruiting right away?

S: [00:07:28] So I did try to kind of throw myself into the recruiting boat for there were a couple of like banking and P.E. positions that were opening up for the undergrads that were also available to like the one year master students just realize I just had this massive gap of knowledge, so I kind of wanted to put myself a bit more prepared for the next time. Recruiting would come around. I enrolled in more like finance classes, then got more involved in the investment club. Started taking up courses on how to use Bloomberg or looking at Capital IQ. Learn how to like model because actual modeling is definitely not easy. So I did all that. It took me a couple of months to get and get up to speed. And then when spring came around, there were a couple. There were a few junior analysts like rotational programs at my previous firm and a few actually the West Coast to across both equities and fixed income. Just fixed income because I didn't fully understand it and I wanted to understand it. So that's how I ended up there.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:30] Very cool. So you're this this spring, we kind of you basically, you're not spring week, but it was almost like you, said junior analyst. That was during school that you kind of had this internship.

S: [00:08:40] So it was a full time, full time job post-graduation.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:44] Got it. Ok, so tell me about the interviews for that. You said you didn't really understand it, fixed income. So were you going in there and just saying, Hey, I'm looking, I'm looking to learn, and they like that? How did you kind of get the job?

S: [00:08:53] So I think it's kind of structured similarly to other by side interview rules. You've got the first round on campus just talking about your understanding

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:06] Financial statements. You know, what is the deal like? Are you able to understand what is leverage capital structures? And then obviously a bit about your personality and background. So if I mix up a technical and behavioral and then once you pass that round, I had what you call a Super Day at their headquarters, and that was it was about seven rounds with directors from across the team back to back, right back to back.

S: [00:09:32] Yeah, it was a good six hours out there and they gave me maybe lunch.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:38] Could you speak after you had a lot of water? I hope while you were talking?

S: [00:09:41] Yeah, thankfully I just checked into the hotel. I went to bed straight away and that

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:49] Was that in New York, London or

 

S: [00:09:51] So that was. So they're based in they're headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina. So I drove down from Durham to Charlotte for the Super Day and then stayed there for the night. Yeah. Perfect. Very good. But yeah, and then each round was sort of about understanding. Do you even know what a bond is? Kind of. So they didn't ask me to technical, thankfully, but at least conceptually understand the concept. I think they're OK with that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:18] And did you feel like you said you kind of got up to speed after a couple of months of prepping? Did you feel like technically you were like getting pushed pretty hard during this? Or was it more just to get to know you? And this is an entry level position, they were a little bit more lenient.

S: [00:10:31] I think they were definitely looking to see your willingness to learn. And I would say that's kind of pretty important, especially for people who are doing sort of nontraditional recruiting backgrounds. Just the willingness to learn, seeing the fact that you've made an effort to find ways to build your knowledge gap, I think, is kind of what they look at. And and I think just being honest, if you don't understand it, you're like, you don't understand this concept, but you think this is what it could be. So I think that's definitely something that they appreciate.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:03] Very good. So did that happen to you like in one of the super days where you're saying like, I have no idea where you forced to say that at one point?

S: [00:11:11] Yeah. So they picked up on one of the activities

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:15] I had listed on my resume was a stock pitch competition, and they asked me about going to walk me through kind of how I did that investment process and how I pitched it to the panels. And then that specific company, they even questions like, Oh, do you know if they have any bonds? Fortunately, I did research that beforehand and I did know that, yes, I'm like, Yeah, they do have bonds. I'm not 100 percent sure where they're trading at, but I think the coupon rates this percent. So I think that kind of level of honesty and be like, All right, you're prepared for it. So but fortunately, they stopped at that. They didn't ask me to go more into like trading levels. Interesting. So, yeah, if it had been like trading distress or something like that, they may have started asking you some complicated questions around, like where is the fulcrum security in all of this or. Very cool. So yeah, that would be tough. But the, you know, two to three months of kind of prep work you had done, it's not that much, right?

S: [00:12:11] Right. And I think, you know, in school you typically look at trading in and out of equities, but trading in out of bonds isn't that widely taught at that level? Maybe. I guess once you go to more senior MBA kind of classes, you probably get that exposure. Let's talk about that.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:27] So this this is an analyst. We'll call it high yield analyst role at a large fund. Tell me a little bit about how you ended up in high yield. What that list for the listeners is you can explain what that even means. And then if you liked it or not, what was like the actual progression of like getting trained and all that good stuff?

S: [00:12:47] Yeah. And so high yield the term, basically. So the yield basically implies the return you get is much, much more larger than you would on other sort of traditional that which so you classify bonds as either investment grade or high yield. And the segmentation is typically on the ratings profile. So you've got like S&P, Moody's and Fitch, which classify these companies. The more colloquial term is junk bonds. I think that's probably been thrown around a lot. And they're not I mean,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:21] Well, high yield now is crazy, right? It's like everything's high yield or like there's so much high yield. The rates are so low, but it's that you're getting almost no return on, like taking out a lot of risk right now.

S: [00:13:33] It's a very interesting environment at the moment with the interest rates and because of COVID, we had this massive slew of downgrades into the high yield universe. And then, you know, inflation's creeping back up again. So you've got the whole question of how are rates going to go back up? But it's an interesting market actually these days. But, you know, kind of going back to, yeah, sorry, I interrupted you.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:59] Yeah, the high yield analyst days. Tell me a little bit about like how you started, like how clueless you were or how long it took you to ramp up what skills you needed to kind of be successful in that job.

S: [00:14:07] Yeah. So the Juliana's program that I was hired for is sort of like a two year entry level position. I think that the idea of this kind of structured a similar to an investment banking analyst program, but it's still sort of it was it was still in its infancy. You're training for, I think on the buy side tends to be a bit more on the job because you are sort of required to know was learning how to read financial statements, but actually putting the analysis into more coherent recommendations and whether you're right or wrong kind of comes with experience. So but as a junior analyst, you're obviously not going to be handed a portfolio of credits to look after. You do get to work with senior directors, helping them manage deal flow, doing cash flow analysis, listening to investor calls. And I think depending on your comfort level, you'll end up working with senior associates who will let you present to the investment committees. And that's, I think, post your two years. Depending on your caliber, you might get offered a more full time role. You started kind of babying your own more safer credits if that if there was a safe credit universe. And yeah, that's kind of how my career ended up progressing. I was a two year junior analyst and then I got a full time offer to stay on.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:32] Very cool. And you ended up in London, correct?

S: [00:15:35] I did. So I could have stayed with the team, the U.S. or there was the chance to move over with London and look at European high yield and living in Europe was something I've always wanted to do. So I took. I jumped at it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:48] Very cool. And when you say by side, so this is a fund that has its own LPs and its own investors kind of pulling together? Or is this something where it's more like high net worth individuals? Kind of.

S: [00:16:00] I'd say it's a bit more like mutual funds, so it's a variety of investor base, but they're more traditionally like we've got scale lows, which are collateralized loan obligations. Then you've got pension funds. The biggest ones tend to be the Japanese or the Asian clients. We also got a lot of pension funds across the U.S., across Europe, across Europe, some of its insurance money as well. But I think for what we do, we don't typically look at high net worth individuals or it's not structured in a way that a PE fund would be.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:33] It's an institution, but it's institutional money coming in, OK? And so tell me a little bit about so that transition from the U.S. to to London and kind of how your how your responsibilities change. I assume you started having to cover names.

S: [00:16:45] Yeah, so I think my first few months there definitely felt like I took a step back because it was a new team, I needed to build my credibility all over again. And you're in a different market, the rates environment and you're a different kind of the leverage finance industry. There is a lot more, I would say, detailed than I think in terms of deal flow in the U.S. is. And you do have nuances of each country, whether it's like U.K., France, Spain or Germany.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:13] What do you mean, detailed?

S: [00:17:16] So because it's much it's I think it's like a third of the market of the U.S. in terms of size. So liquidity and trading is a lot less. Yeah. So your diligence Process needs to be a bit more thorough. I think that's like, yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, that's at least the way my committee over there used to run the process. But so you would have to go through various stages of diligence and kind of forecasting based cases and sensitivity cases. And then obviously understanding that from a legal documentation side, UK deal versus a France deal versus Germany deal have a lot of nuances. So just kind of like picking up those small things took a while. Mm hmm. But fortunately, I didn't have to learn a new language entirely, so it wasn't that difficult.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:13] That's good. And so, yeah, I mean, you were there

For in that role for a couple of years. Like, tell me, like what a typical day was like, you'd come in and start, you know, you'd be working on a certain pitch for the investment committee on one name on like one specific credit or would it be like a whole group of things you can pitch them?

S: [00:18:30] Yeah. So I think my first year there I tend. I used to be in the first half, paired up with a senior analyst there. I would attend a bunch of roadshows and investor deals with them, and I start with either building out kind of models or look at putting together the memo. And at times, if it's an existing portfolio company and there's a quarterly update call coming up, I might just hop on the call, see what they're updated, send a note or on to my team kind of be on top of the trading levels. And once I did a couple of rotations of that, I started. I was handed over a portfolio of tech and health care businesses to me. And so that was sort of my responsibility. Anything in terms of new issue, new earnings calls, you kind of have to manage your time around it. So in terms of data busy, it can, and it moves around with new issue markets. So they're busy weeks. There are quiet weeks and summer, but Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:28] And so in terms of like your day to day, it sounds like you'd be earning these calls like updating models trying to see, OK, is this or is it? Should I think of it like, so you're doing a lot of analysis around like whether your company should be in the market for owning these bonds? Or like hair, you have this portfolio already of when you own and you're trying to figure out should you keep them.

S: [00:19:51] So you'd have so as a coverage analyst, you'd be handed either a sector of subsector of. I started with 10 that I built over to 30 by the time I became an associate director. But you, in terms of daily activities, there's typically not much you just need to kind of keep an eye out for news flow, especially anything that might impact trading levels the day of or the next day. Quarterly updates whenever earnings season comes around, that does tend to be a bit busy and you do have to you. I think on the new issues side, it could be an existing portfolio company, or you might end up looking at a new business that's looking to tap the market to raise new debt financing. And I think that usually gets assigned based on what industry you're covering. There are times where analysts are obviously overwhelmed. If you're doing more than two or three or four deals in a week, you end up working with someone else. But yeah, it does move around a lot.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:51] Did you feel like you kind of got the hang of it? And then obviously you were promoted to associate director, so it sounds like they liked what you were doing. Tell me a little bit about that promotion. Did it change anything day to day or was it more just, you know, an acknowledgement of your advancement?

S: [00:21:06] Definitely. No, I hope. I hope you like what I was doing. But yeah, it was definitely a little bit of a step up in terms of responsibility. I think in terms of my day to day, not a huge significant difference. I would still look at new issue. I was still monitoring my portfolio company, still talking to management teams. Obviously, my universe increased, so I just had to be a lot more efficient with that. But I think the bigger kind of step up was coming in terms of looking at new trading opportunities and being a lot more aggressive with the start dipping into more distressed opportunities as well. And I think that's obviously a bit of a slightly different universe and you're looking at very different, different nuances as well. I mean, the timing of the promotion also kind of coincided with COVID. So I think we all naturally got a chance to learn new things at that time.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:06] And in terms of like distress, was that kind of why you started looking into that? Because there was potentially some bonds trading well below par that maybe were undervalued and that was the idea? Or was it were you guys taking short positions on bonds as well?

S: [00:22:19] So as a shop where typically long only you're looking for

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:23] Undervalued, any sort of undervalued?

S: [00:22:25] Yeah. And I think holding periods vary between one or two, sometimes three years. Sometimes you move in and out. If, like the recommendation on that, certain companies drastically changed. But so I mean, in terms of with COVID, like my health care portfolio was for the most part, resilient. So they didn't really trade that sub below market levels. But I was babysitting the travel portfolio as well for one of my analysts, one of my colleagues, who was on maternity leave. Oh wow. And that portfolio definitely saw a pretty significant dip, and those were the ones we had to be a bit more focused on in terms of liquidity gains. And, you know, where do we do we think they survive the next wave of COVID? And if they if they will, should we be buying this at distressed levels, right? I mean, Cove is still going on, so we don't know how long that's going to last. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:20] Well, were you pretty aggressive or was the company pretty aggressive even when your recommendations? Maybe once the vaccine news came out, you're more aggressive.

S: [00:23:29] But yeah, no, I think and I think that's where active, you know, asset management kind of comes into roll. You do have to look at sort of these opportunities. And when the markets get displaced, you need to kind of go out there and buy them. We ended up buying them way before even we had any idea when things might reopen. Yeah. And our thesis tends tended to be about, well, maybe they reopen in the summer or if they don't open in the summer, they stay shut for the rest of the year. But they still have enough cash needs to make it. Yeah, they can make it.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:03] Yeah, that's interesting. Crazy times to be babysitting that portfolio.

S: [00:24:10] Yeah, but it was a good learning experience, for sure, for sure.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:14] So tell me when you thought business school was the good next step and tell me about that thought process and all that?

S: [00:24:20] Definitely. So, you know, I definitely enjoy kind of being on the side and staying in this universe of finance. But I think kind of like with COVID especially just wanted to make me think that I wanted to move away from kind of public market investing, potentially switch more on the private side, learn about businesses more on the operational level. And that's kind of where the whole business school idea kind of came into fruition. So, you know, figuring out whether it's I don't know if I want to move more into the startup universe, whether it's start looking at venture capital, maybe it's private equity, but kind of open to ideas. We just started a month ago, so I've time for private car and private credit as well here. Yeah.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:03] They may really like your background for that. So we're distressed hedge fund or something like that. Very interesting. So you kind of were thinking, Hey, this might be interesting. Give me a couple of years to kind of reset. So you're now at Kellogg, right?

S: [00:25:16] Correct. I am at Kellogg, and we just started about a few weeks ago.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:23] It's early yesterday in the middle of the summer,

S: [00:25:25] So I'm actually in their one hour program.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:28] Ok, tell me about, yeah, let's talk about that one. It's a one year program.

S: [00:25:31] Yeah, because I've done my one, my Masters management beforehand. I just figured doing the full two years probably would not have been the best fit for me in terms of opportunity cost. So the one by at Kellogg just seemed a bit more better fit, and they've got some great courses to take, especially within the CPE, and they've got startup and venture labs and those were what I really wanted to try and pursue. So, yeah, I mean, it is going to be an intense one year, but

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:01] You also get the great part about that is like for almost like I assume it's the same price as a normal MBA, which is for one year.

S: [00:26:08] So it's how it because you end up

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:13] Similar credits, a number of credits in one year,

S: [00:26:16] You take, I think, a couple more credits than I think you would in the first year of a two year program. So I think the tuition is adjusted for that,

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:26] But they still give you the MBA.

S: [00:26:28] Correct. So we're going to be

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:29] Big at the MBA. You still get the network. Right. Yeah, that's great, I didn't even know they had that. So are there schools doing that? Is it like it's not like the executive MBA? It's it's literally called one. Why or why?

S: [00:26:42] It's yeah, it's just one way. There are a couple more accelerated MBA programs coming up as well. I think my former alma mater has one pupil, has one to. I think it's definitely a lot more common in Europe and Europe. European MBAs tend to be either like 15

S: [00:26:59] Months or similarly at much shorter. So you do end up missing the chance to do a full two month internship in the summer. But if you know what you what you want to do and you're not making a massive career pivot, then the one way makes sense.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:12] Do you feel like this is going to give you enough time to figure it out as we approach the fall?

S: [00:27:16] I hope so. I've been through it once again, so I think I know what I need to do now.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:22] Oh, let me know if I can help with trying to narrow it down because it's tough. It's it looks like you're looking at a lot like VC startups, private equity. It's all very different. Yeah. And P is super competitive coming out of MBA just because everyone who kind of was prior can come after. But I think your background is

really interesting because you were already on the buy side, but on the credit card itself. So you could say, Hey, I'm really good at the downside case. I'm really good at constructing that

S: [00:27:48] Like I know when things go wrong, but trying to get the upside is where we need to work on. Yeah, exactly.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:53] Exactly. That's cool. Awesome. Well, that's been really helpful. So you're kind of just we'll wait and see where you come out. Maybe we'll do another in a few years. We'll kind of catch up with you. Sure thing where you're at. Any other kind of final words of wisdom before we call the pod?

S: [00:28:08] Yeah. I mean, I guess I would just say, you know, we kind of going through the whole when I was going through the whole business school application route and it just made me reflect that I do have a bit more of a nontraditional background, and I would say that it's not impossible to kind of get into the career or the industry that you want to do. It is a bit, yes, unstructured, but you do have to leverage your network, talk to as many people as you did find a mentor. If you don't have a mentor, become one yourself. And I found that was very helpful through a lot of the changes I've had throughout my career.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:43] One last thing after we hit stop, I realized that we didn't talk about diversity and inclusion, and you've been very much involved in that. It sounds like since you first started your career. So tell me a little bit about what you did there and what you would kind of advice.

S: [00:28:58] Yeah, I mean, I think working in this industry, there has been quite a lot of changes over the last few years. And when I kind of go back to when I started off as an analyst, I was the only female from a relatively minority ethnic background at the time. So it came from a place of like I was looking for a mentor and that's when we kind of establish a women's network within our headquarter team. And I, when I moved to London, I sort of spearheaded that with me and I took it like, you know, this is a great support system and it will help people kind of navigate the ins and outs of their career. And then I wanted to take that and broaden it outside of just my firm. So we got involved with some trade organizations, which had a lot of diversity and diversity and inclusivity recruiting efforts. And a lot of that was more about spreading awareness of finances. A career starting from, I think, early on, like reaching out to high school students and a lot of high school students in the U.K., which work with charities and from for students from minority ethnic backgrounds, including African and Caribbean regions. And just kind of spreading that word and getting interest early on, I thought was very important thing to do. And then from there kind of tag along with DKNY questionnaires or sort of some anti-bias training workshops. And it's an ongoing effort, and I don't think there's an easy answer to it. But the fact that people are opening up to it and are looking for ways to get to solution, I think is the first step. But yeah, hopefully we'll see how this continues to carry on.

Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:47] Yeah, we've worked with Immelt and CEO. I don't know if you know those programs here in the U.S.. Yeah, so we worked with them closely in helping put some of their members through kind of mock interviews and prepping them through our mentor network as well. So hopefully, hopefully helpful to them. But again, as thanks so much for your time, I'm going to we'll loop that in in the episodes, though. Thanks so much. Great to talk to you and thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.