WSO Podcast | E53: Boutique IB Horror
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Member @BrownChad shares his long and arduous road in investment banking to make it to a reputable firm from two nightmare boutiques. We explore his journey straight from India to an MBA program, culture shock, the perils of working at very small investment banks with toxic culture as well as what he did when the people closest to him began to doubt his path.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 53) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:04] Oh. Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, member BrownChad shares his long and arduous road in investment banking to make it to a reputable firm from two nightmare boutiques. We explore his journey straight from India to an MBA program, culture shock, the perils of working at a very small investment, banks with toxic culture as well as what he did when the people closest to him began to doubt his path. Enjoy. All right, Brown, Chad, thank you so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
BrownChad: [00:01:04] Sure. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:06] Great. So you could be great if you could give the listeners a quick summary of your background.
BrownChad: [00:01:11] Yeah, absolutely. Born and raised in India went to an Irish Catholic school, you know, pretty conservative over there. I come from a humble background. I did hear some of the other podcasts. So, you know, I don't think any of the extreme spectrums per say that like, I had a comfortable background growing up. And like all the connections at the same time, I wasn't, you know, like struggling for every meal. So I think I come from like a middle class family. Did anything about investment banking or really in life in general? I just knew that, you know, you just keep working hard and go and become more successful. And so, yeah, after Oscar,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:52] Where in India, where in India? Where you where you were?
BrownChad: [00:01:55] Yeah. New Delhi. Ok? Oh yeah. And the goal was just to be like, you know, successful. Didn't really know like, you know what success meant or how to achieve that. Investment banking finance wasn't even on the radar in India, like engineering is a big thing. So the path is you go to an engineering school, which you know is like which everybody like almost, you know, is like a standard way for everybody in India, I guess. And so the engineering school got that out of the way. I didn't really know what's next. I think when I graduated in 2009, so the peak of recession in the U.S. wasn't a big recession in India, but job opportunities were still not a lot. And a lot of the employers took a good stab at that situation and really, like offered lower salaries and stuff. So I ended up in a small shop in India. I worked there for about a year, got an opportunity to work with in India, where I went in an audit support practice. So for me, I was just happy that a big firm, which is a consulting firm, you know, has its door, opens for people like myself. So I went over there working out of practice for about two and a half years completely. It was not something that I wanted to do, but that was good because I realized that that's not something I want to do.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:18] You didn't love audit. You didn't love audit. Come on, man.
BrownChad: [00:03:21] I know, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:22] They surprised some people like it. Some people like it. They had the right personality for it and they can grind. But busy season and all that. Or is that I'm thinking tax. Did you guys have like busy seasons and stuff like that? Or am I thinking my buddies?
BrownChad: [00:03:35] You know, you're right. Like, you're right, like there are busy seasons and such. But I really wasn't in the core or in practice because I got a CPA. Cfa got it all that I did engineering. So I did audit support and it get boring from there. So, yeah, so but yeah, like so I did that. I was trying really hard to like, you know, I think I I'm like an okay student person, like not a great test taker or whatever, but got really low scores on my team had initially just to give you a better perspective. Out of 800, I was in the 400 ranges when I got started off, you know? But I think the one thing that about me is like my dad, big support for me. Like, you know, he always encouraged me and gave me guidance and such. And I think study for the GMAT. I took it like four times, so I kept progressing and gradually I think I got a 650 at the end. Like, you know, when I was just finally done with everything and then I applied to business schools with that score
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:36] Was the struggle more the math or the or the verbal side for you? Just curiosity.
BrownChad: [00:04:41] I think for me, yeah, that's a great question. For me, even though I went to an Irish Catholic school and all that, but just a lot of situations in the GMAT are very unique to the U.S.. So for me, just to get a perspective of what it means, oh, there's a bus goes from Washington, D.C. to New York and one tour bus or something. And like so critical reasoning question would be like, Oh, so what happens with the passengers that have, like no idea like what's going on or what I'm talking about?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:11] So it wasn't culture. It had cultural bias inherent in the questions, and it kind of threw you off. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Ok, that's cool.
BrownChad: [00:05:20] Definitely. So, yeah,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:22] Well, it's not. It's not cool, but it's interesting. It's not cool. But OK, so OK. So you manage to get it up to a respectable score and you applied with the six fifty. So OK, so you yeah. What happened?
BrownChad: [00:05:36] Yeah, I applied to a bunch of schools and I got waitlisted and Rochester and I applied to be and then one of the ferries in India like fairs. I came across Johns Hopkins and I really didn't know much about it, except that I it like a couple of sitcoms, Archer, where like he, you know, going to Hopkins to play lacrosse in the game and stuff like that. So I do. It's kind of cool, but I really didn't understand the gravity of like, how good or bad the school is. I just knew it's pretty awesome. Yeah, I had a mentor in India, one of my dad's good friends, whose kids went to a really good school to the U.S. and you can work what? So he was guiding me, I guess, he also didn't know much about Hopkins themselves, but when I told him he's like, Don't worry about it, it's like these schools just like, you know, interview people, just so that they can have the checkmark where they say, Oh, we interviewed 9000 people and a thousand students and picked two out of them. So he's like, don't stress. Don't waste your time and Hopkins and all that stuff. But you know, I just kept going on. And I think because Hopkins is still coming up or it's still coming up. I genuinely feel I got lucky and I got a full ride and they liked me. The like my horses and all that good stuff, you know? And I flew to the states and I think that was the inflection point for me because my mentor in India did mention that the only thing you really want to do when you go there is investment banking. And, you know, like in your dad's friends and stuff, you call them uncle. So like I said, like Uncle, I have no idea about finance like I've never seen like, you know what accounting means and all that. Yeah. And he was like, Don't worry about it. You learn it in business school. And years later, I didn't think in business school. But, but yeah, like, you know, that's you really
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:18] Don't you really don't learn. I mean, you need to be you need to know what you need to know. It like going in right? Because recruiting happens so fast. But anyways, go ahead. Yeah.
BrownChad: [00:07:27] Yeah. And so, um, so you know, I moved to the U.S. and moved to the U.S. is great. Like, I moved from a big city in India to a modified city in the U.S., so I wasn't really excited about that aspect. I really wanted to be in, like New York or Chicago or like some like exciting city, but it is what it is. I was really excited about the school and the brand name because in India, like nobody really cares about, you know, the ranking person they care about, like if they've heard the name of the school right? For my parents, baby, like honestly, a lot of people wouldn't have even heard about working right there, but like Yale and Stanford, they'd be more excited. If you tell them that I went to business school in Yale, that was
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:08] Right, because the brand? I get it. They get
BrownChad: [00:08:09] It right. Right. And so when people like her, like Hopkins, especially like my dad's friend circle and like other people who know about schools and reputation side, but like not, you know, a lot about business school and such. So they were like, wow, like, that's great and all that. And I was really happy about that, that I could make my parents proud.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:26] So at this stage, at this stage of your life, at this stage of your life, you've graduated undergrad, you went and did just a quick summary. You went and did some years in audit, really didn't like it. Started applying for the GMAT. Your dad was really supportive and you felt like you still were kind of you really wanted to please your parents, right? Like you still. Yeah, that was important to you, right? Because they had been so supportive. Growing up and stuff like that. So and you had this mentor, which was great. Ok, so you move, you move stateside and little culture shock. Or what was it like?
BrownChad: [00:08:58] No, absolutely 100 percent. I've been to the U.S. once before. So like, I had seen a little bit, but I was really for vacation when I moved here. This is complete culture shock for your, I guess, American audience that probably might not know a lot about the Indian background. You always continue to live with their parents throughout your life. You never move out. Even when you get married, you bring your plus one with you to your parents place where you're living. So yeah, the fact that I had my own place and like I could do whatever I want and like, you know, all that stuff was definitely a great freedom. My parents were pretty liberal or pretty liberal, so I never really faced that problem. But you know, it's a different experience where you're just living by yourself with one roommate and like, it's a great situation. You do whatever you want to do and, you know, treat your life the way you want to do. So that’s what the cultural, I guess, shock or like experience that I had and I really enjoyed it. What I did not factor in was the fact that I was I was assuming too much of myself. I thought, Oh my God, like, you know, I worked with in India, and now I'm at Johns Hopkins. And like, you know, the bulge bracket banks and McKinsey and NBCU would like to hire me. So you had a good
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:16] You had a false perspective on where you stood in the hierarchy of banking candidates. I get it. Ok, you hadn't hit had you not found Wall Street Oasis yet to kind of knock you back into place?
BrownChad: [00:10:30] Yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah. No, it's like my first. You're essentially flew by like and I didn't even realize what just happened. It was so fast. I like business school like programs are just fast by itself and then meeting so many people and you know, it's a lot going on. I wouldn't say I was a party boy or whatever, but at the same time, I was definitely not studying.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:52] Oh, you were first time away from home like having a blast? Yeah, for sure. I don't blame me. I partied a lot and weren't so OK. So go ahead. Say you, you're having a good time, you're away from home. And then, yeah, it's kind of like you blink and it's over the first year.
BrownChad: [00:11:08] Right. Right, exactly. And then, yeah, like right around January, we have like this, you know, exchange program of sorts where they send you overseas to like, you know, work on a project and all that. So that was I've been to Peru again, had a great time, and by February, when I came back, it was really too late to get any kind of internships or jobs, right? And here I was thinking McKinsey being BCG, like, they're like dying to like, hire me. And then I realized, not only are they not interested, like, it's also I fast or, you know, the deadline. This was like way back in September, October, November.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:40] This was in the second year. This is the second year you did the Peru thing. First year. Ok, so you went on this trip, you're having a blast. You come back and you're like, Oh, whoops, I'm not going. I'm not going to have a summer internship or a good summer internship to set me up. Ok?
BrownChad: [00:11:52] Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:53] So wasn't there career services? Isn't anybody from career services? There was nobody telling you kind of any of this before you went in.
BrownChad: [00:12:00] You know? Yeah, like, I really like my career services, the group that people are really nice. But I think and I gave them this feedback to like, you guys have to tell students that, you know, what is the placement process, you know, like, I get it. A lot of students do understand this, but especially coming from overseas, I had no idea. I'm like, You know, yeah. And like, again, it's not up to anybody else. I think just being Indian and all this hard on myself that it's my fault that I, you know, I don't know my stuff and I do agree, like the career service could have done a better job. I just educating us more of what the timelines are, what the processes are, what the deadlines are. And I think because the school is still coming up, yeah, they are still streamlining those things. They're more focused on, like building employee relationships and all that good stuff than like, you know, this part of it. But yeah, so that was that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:49] So what did it feel like? You got back and you're like, Oh, what am I doing and what? What was your yeah, what did you do when you got back to campus? And how did you start your search and try to come something come up with something to?
BrownChad: [00:12:59] So I guess even when I got back like that wasn't I wasn't still panicking, I started panicking when I saw my classmates had really good internships and such, and I did. And because, you know, obviously nobody like, I guess I didn't really realize that I was naive as well as like, nobody shares what the secret sauce is or they're interviewing at other places for internships and such that they all did whatever they had to do. But like for the really bright students like us who like myself, who think, you know, we're like, too good for the world, we were left nowhere. And so when I saw my classmates, you know, having these good internships and leaving in another month and talking about all that, that's when I started to panic. And I think that's the time of my career. So this group, like they told me, you should use LinkedIn and, you know, the basic stuff that they tell you. And that, Patrick, I think if there's one thing that I stress on this podcast is the benefit that I got from LinkedIn. Like all my job, my internships, my connections, everything to date, even my current job is all through LinkedIn. Yeah. And so, yeah, so essentially, I knew I had a consulting background before, so I could leverage that. It just started reaching out to everybody, random people on LinkedIn. If I thought their profile look important enough, I just dropped them a text message. And I think that day and still day to day, like I still use LinkedIn very frequently and it really does help me till date. And you know, like I learned at the time that initially I was very, I guess not American Indian and my approach where I live, like a three paragraph introduction stuff on LinkedIn, you know, I'm like, Yeah, these are like move from India engineering, blah blah blah and love to like, talk to you. And then I think in about like four or five six months, I'd already started getting a lot of responses, feedback, phone calls, and I'd also filtered my way of writing LinkedIn messages and, you know, from like three paragraphs to begin three lines. I'm like, really like a background and I love to talk. You introduced myself and, you know, I just used to sign off with my American name. So short and sweet. Yeah. Yeah. And that's another thing I'd love to talk about. But anyway, like so that's that. And, you know, for good or for bad, this one gentleman who had a small consulting shop in Virginia, like, you know, said, I really admire you reaching out. You don't have anything open, but I'll keep you in mind. And then I asked him, I'm like, I'd love to meet you. And just like, you know, talk to you in person. And I think that's where I know that, like when I meet people in person like I have or at least I can, like, have a lasting impression on somebody, and I just asked them for a chance to meet. And he said, OK, fine, why not? And one thing led to another. And one month into the summer I got an internship, and I guess they liked me enough that even after the internship, they kept me part time till the time I graduated. And that might help me like pay for my rent and everything else that I was going to ask for a full ride.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:58] It was a full ride where they covering like rent and all that stuff. Or how did you
BrownChad: [00:16:03] How were you? No, I think to do it now, they cover that stuff. They have like eight positions or something where they like, cover your rent and everything. But it was just like tuition. Everything I related to school. Yeah, not your books and stuff, but like even my trip like Peru was included in the tuition and such. So. So, yeah, so that happened from my summer internship. They really paid me well. I think they were trying to gauge like how much to pay me. And they asked me to connect them to the career services. I told the career services at least asked for $20 because I thought like 15 would be the standard, and they actually replied to the career services. Like not many teams, no one will pay for me. And I was just like, Oh my God, this is magical. You gotta keep in mind that, you know, being from India, like converting like every dollar into it. Right, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:55] So you're like, I'm rich. I'm rich.
BrownChad: [00:16:57] Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's awesome. You know, I'm living this like really like affordable apartment building in Baltimore in the like, really like a shady neighborhood. So, you know, like it's for every dollar, for me was like, great. And I'm like, yes, like, you know, bingo. So that was definitely interesting. And, you know, they've been like, super nice. My experience with them was really nice, but it was just a consulting practice. And but at the same time, I did start reaching out to people proactively for my full time job opportunities. What time?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:28] What type of work were you doing at the consulting shop? What type of stuff were you doing?
BrownChad: [00:17:31] Was it transferable work like compliance or reject stuff like that? Nothing.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:37] Oh, so somewhat related to what you. Somewhat related to what you did before.
BrownChad: [00:17:41] It sounds like, yeah, but it wasn't by design, it was just happened that it was something similar to that. It wasn't that they knew that, Oh, this guy does this so we can exactly leverage him.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:50] So tell me when you realize when you didn't realize till you got back from that trip and all your classmates started having all these great internships like the top consulting firms and the banks, you didn't realize till then that the recruiting had already happened. Or like, yeah, that's just crazy. Like when it was happening, like there was, I think you were probably just so like in party mode and having fun like being away. Like, is that what it was? Do you think or what? What do you think? Just I know career service didn't say anything, but like, you weren't there signs like Goldman coming on campus or whatever. Jeffrey's coming on campus or anything like that or no?
BrownChad: [00:18:25] Yeah. So like, Hopkins is a non-target school. I think the business school, the undergrad at Goldman Sachs, everybody comes there. But like the business school, nobody comes there. And also the business school is about like, I think five or six miles away from the main campus is in the downtown district of Baltimore. So it's pretty much like nobody really comes to your school, per say. Yeah. And as far as I remember Patrick, I don't think anybody came to campus, at least when I was. Got it. Got it. It was.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:52] It was more. It was more on you than it was more on. You like to get it done? Ok, OK. Fair enough. So, yeah, so you do the consulting internship, you're getting paid. Your rich man getting paid 40 bucks an hour, you're feeling amazing about that. But then you're like, this is, you know, it'd be great if I can lever up somehow, you know, get, yeah, get even a better job. So, yeah, tell me how you went into that second year with what mindset and how are you? How did you approach it?
BrownChad: [00:19:17] So, yeah, like so during my summer internship, I had a lot of free time at my job. And this is interesting because at my job, I spent a significant part of my day just reaching out to people on LinkedIn. And you know, that's when I also started crafting my story, my identity, who I am, and so my name is. But like, like my business school, they recommended that I have it something more American, so it's easier for people to remember and relate and talk to. Yeah. And Patrick, this is really interesting because I've been, you know, thinking about it like ever since I changed my name and not changed my name, even in class. You know, professors won't call out on you because they want to be respectful towards you, and they won't say because it's hard and then probably say, like Sam or Chad or yeah, right? And so, you know, those people will get more participation points than you. So you lose that over there. Similarly, like, that's what I thought about it, and this is just my own thought process that when you go and sit for an interview in a Super Day at a bank and you have like Sam and Chad and Patrick and you know, like Jesse and Jessica and Rob is talking about all the candidates. Yeah, just out of respect. You know, there won't be like, Oh yeah. So I really like Patrick. I like I really like Sam. And, you know, like when it comes about, they'll keep it minimal or, you know, they won't really see our name alone. And that's just my own assumption. I may be completely wrong.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:40] I think I think it just makes, I think, just trying to align yourself with the culture. More makes people more comfortable. That's what I think it is. I don't think it's so much the saying, the name is probably a little bit of that. You're probably right, but I think it's more just aligning. And I think, yeah, I think it's a smart move. I think for international students to have names that are just to make it easier on the hiring managers.
BrownChad: [00:21:02] I mean, it's also extremely douchey, like this is the dumbest thing you can do. Like, if I ever wanted to have my Indian friends, like that's my American name that, you know, used to be like, Oh my God, that's just so horrible, because I was like, I don't know, it's just culturally like, not acceptable that like, you know, you have like an American name. As a matter of fact, before I move to the U.S., one of my friends who went to Stanford, she gave an example about this guy like who changed his name, like who was from India, even like colored his hair like something. And he did, and he did get into a bracket by the end of the day. And I always thought of him like, you know, like that guy, like, that's interesting. Like, tell me more. Like, what else did he do?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:38] So you're like, I'll be, I'll be a douche for the job. You're like, Oh, I don't care. Like, yeah, OK, OK, fair enough.
BrownChad: [00:21:45] Anyway, moving on, like, yeah, like, I reached out to a bunch of people I didn't know anything about M&A, investment banking, buy side, sell side. The only thing I knew is like, I love to talk to people. I love networking and I think I'm natural on it. So I spoke to so many people I created like a contact sheet and like, you know, kept a tab of everybody every time I spoke to somebody. You know, I asked them, what do you do for fun? What do you do on the weekends? And they're like, Oh yeah, I go for hiking with my wife and whenever you know, like 10 year old son and I made notes on those things. Yeah. And you know, when I said thank you emails, I did say, Oh, I hope you know your daughter. And you did have a good time on the track or whatever, and I just tried to keep that. And actually, as a matter of fact, a partner from McKinsey and I like became very close like that, and he actually sent me a picture of his daughter, who was born, I think, a few months after he and I got connected. And, you know, like, I built a strong relationship. And that really gave me a boost to connect with more people, talk to more people on LinkedIn and just like learn about the work, and that's also when I learned that's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:49] Can I just stop you right there? That's a really important point that I think I don't want to gloss over for the listeners is like, that is that extra little touch, that extra little something of, you know, being organized enough to take the notes and understand, keep? And I don't personally, I don't even do this enough. I think it's really, really smart. And I think it can when you're really struggling to kind of get in and get your foot in the door, having those extra little personal connections, really developing not just so many a ton of kind of artificial quick connections, but more meaningful ones, I think can get you a lot further. But anyways, continue sorry for that little.
BrownChad: [00:23:24] Yeah, no. I mean, I absolutely I can't. I couldn't agree more, even with you, Patrick. Again, like you know, when you and I spoke a couple of days back, I said, when you and I spoke about a year ago, there were some things that you told me. I don't think I made notes, but like, I do remember it, but maybe I did. You know, if I can move from like Boston or something to where you are right now and all that good stuff. So I do feel like if you really like and enjoy speaking with somebody like and if you can make notes about them, it really goes a long way just to like, solidify that relationship. And I have so many more examples of, like other partners that other forms, you know, who are like great people by themselves. But I also I got to know about your family a little bit through them, and I think that really did like, you know me, form a great relationship with those people. Sure. Yeah. Anyway, so know basically through all these phone calls, I asked them to what do you do for your job? And they're like, Well, I'm on the buy side and some people, I'm on the sell side and I'm just making notes in my apartment when they're saying all these things because I don't know anything about buy side and sell side, right? And you know, and I guess like, I should have done more homework. And, you know, I don't think like I'm complacent, but at the same time, I didn't know anything. And maybe some research would have also heard of what investment banking entails and all that good stuff. But I had enough information that when I talked to more people like, I can talk to them, I can relate to them and I can ask them somewhat more educated questions about investment banking or M&A. And my goal after the time and I graduated after summer internship know switched completely to breaking into M&A consulting because for me, I thought that's achievable. That's a great job and it pays really well after business school. And so I completely shift gears from like consulting and investment banking to M&A consulting. And, you know, I started reaching out to all the big four, having come from a big of myself from before. You know, I really leveraged that I could talk to more people at the same time on the side. I was also networking extensively with investment bankers and first year for business school. I was the vice president for the student body. And the second year of the business school, I created an organization by itself called the Investment Banking Association for Johns Hopkins Carey Business School. And I got it approved by the school and all that good stuff. I created a website on Ric's and I didn't really do it like I had like, hired, not hired, like I recruited some more students from the finance program, especially some students who came from China and really are really good with like websites and such. And they helped me like build a website where I put myself, and this is another very interesting part. So I put myself at the president and one of my classmates white guy. I think from Colorado, I put his picture and I asked him to be the co-president with me. And he also wanted to break into banking. And I said, I need a token white guy on my website. So I I'm reaching out to people. It's not like, Oh, it's an international, you know, it's like an Indian and Chinese. So, you know, like a community kind of thing that's trying to reach out. I need like a white guy and I need like a guy to like, come on the phone with me and talk to people.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:39] He was probably happy to do it. I mean, he's trying to break into, so he's probably happy to put his name out there on that.
BrownChad: [00:26:44] Yeah, absolutely. And he's nice, he's a good friend and he's a great guy. And, you know, he was trying to break in and it's kind of worked out for him because that's a platform ready for him to let just come on board and start doing this thing. Cool. Yeah. And so then what I realized is like, I can't move. I can't travel from like Baltimore to New York every other weekend. And like, you know, or like other places around the country and meet people for coffee. And being in Baltimore, you're going to meet so many people. So Stifel Nicolaus is a big bank in Baltimore, so I connected with a few people over there, and I still have very great connections or very strong connections with one person who is the director. I feel really good about that. He's kind of a mentor. But what I started doing, Patrick is instead of going to other places, I started inviting people to school and that helped me to feel like I could still do that internship job that I was doing and making some money over there at the same time, attend school and not skip classes and the not most importantly for me and that. On a dime, not spend money on like, you know, train tickets or bus tickets to New York and like, what do you mean? What do you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:46] Mean? You invited people to school? Oh, through like to do a talk or something?
BrownChad: [00:27:50] Yes. Yes. And so I threw the association.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:53] You created an event and association just to get people to come to you. That's awesome.
BrownChad: [00:27:59] That's just speaking, looting. Yeah. And not only that, like, I got a good quality paper on my own dime and I printed out over there like, you know, Mr. X y z recorded it would go on to invite you to Johns Hopkins. Carey Business Schools Investment Banking Association like making it sound like shouldn't feel as important as, yeah, know for sure. Yeah. And you know, like a lot of times, there was a lot of pushback from the school. I'm like, No, I'm a student. I need to do this, do this. And like, you know, it's a lot of carrying forward, I guess. And so or like, I guess, you know, pulling the weight of the entire team so that the school could do this and like, show them strength and all that stuff. So I did that and that really helped me because a lot of people do want to come to like a good name school and talk. And so I started focusing more on investment bankers in the health care space or medical consultants in the health care space. Because chances are that an industrial M&A, you know, investment banker wouldn't have that much of interest coming to Hopkins, but somebody from the healthcare sector would be more interested in coming a job because, you know, they can put on the LinkedIn and stuff like that. Oh yeah, I went to Johns Hopkins as a speaker and you know, they and people do all sorts of stuff, so that's smart. So that's what I did. And sure enough, I did got a lot of traction. And I guess when you know you represent the school brand name was all I had, Patrick, you know, I didn't have anything else that would that I could really leverage except the school name. And so I really did leverage it as much as possible. And yeah, they invited a bunch of people.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:34] So a lot of traction. How many how many bankers did you actually get to come speak over the sea?
BrownChad: [00:29:40] Well, I think I got more M&A consulting people like from the big four, especially, but bankers I think I must have had about like six or seven. Wow. Yeah. Over the entire course of a year, they
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:52] Would come just speak to the association. They would just come and speak to the association itself.
BrownChad: [00:29:58] So I am the association. I know people
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:00] Like how many people would show up to these talks, you know, like how did you get people to show up?
BrownChad: [00:30:06] Yeah, like I would be honest with them. I tell them that about 15 to 20 like targeted students who want to be in investment banking. So I'd craft it in a different way. I wouldn't say that it's a, you know, 100 people advantage and you're like the top of the world. I would say that it's 15 20 people aware, but we've carefully picked out a selected students who are really interested and you know, who will have educated questions, and we want to keep it more one on one and rebranded. And I think I started calling it coffee and cookies, meat or something like that, just so that it's not as stiff because some people, some bankers came up in the suit and all that stuff with like, you know, like actual materials like show and walk us through and banks, people and a lot of like boutique banks from DC and the area came along. And then sometimes Patrick, I didn't even call these people for like my events if there were any other like health care conferences happening to some other club. I see other conference members who are pretty much my classmates said, Hey, do you guys have any spots available? I have two great speakers that I think would be a great addition to your conference, and they're like, Yeah, let me know who. And then I would go out on LinkedIn and anywhere else and reach out to all these people and say, Hey, we have this conference happening. Would you like to come? We'd love to have you back here and it's great and all that good stuff. And whoever too would respond or like conversations mature, I would put those people in touch with them and be the liaison at the point of contact for them when they like land and when they get their taxes and come and all that stuff. So, OK.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:26] And so you basically say, OK, so you're getting these contacts, you're bringing them to campus for your networking coffee chats and instead of having to keep traveling to New York. And so how did you travel to New York? Had you tried that? And it just it was just to get in too much?
BrownChad: [00:31:42] Tell me what I did. And yeah, so in New York, I did travel a few times. Not very often, but I think I met like most more often than not. Like I'd met like associates and analysts from Hopkins undergrad who had gone to like JP Morgan or like the bulge bracket banks. And they were really nice to talk to, but it's really hard to get hold of bankers in New York, and I think my success rate in New York was pretty much with people that are already spoken with before, excuse me, during the summer. And then I restarted them like, Hey, I'm driving to New York, you know, Thursday and Friday and have coffee with you. And you know, that's how there's one senior MD who is a top shop guy at a bunch market and like you, always makes time for people from Hopkins, and he is from Hopkins. So I leveraged that every time I go to New York and talk to him. But yeah, like when I got to New York, you know, living with a friend like I think about an hour and a half outside the city, you know, I travelled in the Greyhound bus from Baltimore to New York like the 10 20 bus. And, you know, very astute and like, take the train and they come in. I guess everybody does that same grind, but that was just my experience. And then I have like five people in one day and like pretending to have the fifth coffee as if it's my first coffee with somebody.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:59] You're like shaking with all the caffeine.
BrownChad: [00:33:01] Yeah, yeah. I'm like, Oh, I need. But yeah, like, I don't really have anything strong to like talk about. Like, in my New York experience, it was just like good meeting people and putting a face to a name for everybody that I've spoken with, especially the guy from McKinsey that I've spoken with because the McKinsey offices of the BlackRock building. So that was very exciting for me. Just to be there and see that, I guess, and not being from New York or, you know, being from Baltimore. So that was that was interesting. But long story short, Patrick, you know, just a lot of outreach, a lot of good connections. And as things turned out, I graduated. I got an opportunity to interview with the M&A consulting practice and the healthcare group about a month and a half after I graduated and the everything.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:52] So you graduate, you graduated, you graduated unemployed.
BrownChad: [00:33:56] I graduated 100 percent unemployed, got it, OK?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:59] Broke and unemployed. What's going on with visa issues too? How long do you have?
BrownChad: [00:34:05] Yeah, so I have about a year before, like my visa situation can happen. And so I needed to get a job and figure out, you know what the next things are. Ok?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:14] A year a year is a long time, though. You had a full year, so it's not like pressing like you have to figure it out too fast. Yeah. Ok. So you graduate with a job, unemployed broke. You're like, OK, what am I going to do? So tell me what was that like? Because I can imagine it's even harder now
BrownChad: [00:34:30] Because you're not don't have. Yeah, I know it is. It is harder, and so, yeah, like it was really scary, and first of all, the form that I worked with in Virginia, like the consulting firm, those guys offered me a full time opportunity. And that happened again at the same time when I got another opportunity and they were a response for me. And so that was good. They really liked me for the smallest shop. And, you know, they thought like I would make a good fit. So that was the first thing that happened. Second thing that
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:00] You went back to the place, you went back to the place you had an internship before.
BrownChad: [00:35:05] Yeah, like I kept walking. You kept working, graduated to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:09] Just have some income, just have some income and stuff. Yeah. Ok, great.
BrownChad: [00:35:13] Yeah. But yeah, so right after I graduated, like this job offer was almost happening that it didn't happen because they were hiring me as an experienced professional. But you can't hire somebody as an experienced professional without them having six months of gap between the time they graduated and the time they hired at the firm. And I guess that's like an industry standard thing. Weird. So that opportunity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:38] I've never heard of that. Ok, so it doesn't hire people straight out of MBA programs all the time or the big four?
BrownChad: [00:35:45] No, they do. But that program is limited like, I guess, the deadline set in November or December and whatever you know, offers a roll out that after that there are no more MBA recruitment. The time the next cycle comes, then you're off cycle, basically.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:00] Got it. Ok, that makes sense. It's more like an intern. It's more an internal. It's more an internal like structuring of when they when they're onboarding people and stuff like that.
BrownChad: [00:36:08] Right? Got it. Ok? Right. And so, yeah, so that happened. But in the same time, there was another small form in Baltimore more, and they gave me an offer to come in as an associate. They said it's not a desk job, but you know, if I was an associate and they got me on board and I was really happy and excited that I had that opportunity. So I joined that firm
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:32] And that was a boutique investment that was a boutique
BrownChad: [00:36:35] In the first three months. And you know, I think some things were on me and some things were in them and that like when I joined the firm, I was excited. And keep in mind, Patrick, I still don't have any like finance knowledge like, you know, sure, I did my boot camps and such. But like, literally, I don't know anything about anything. And so going on a bank, I think that's something that I was like, All right now, I'm going at a bank and I learn all this stuff. And my target wasn't even banking like I really wanted to get in banking, but like I was focusing more on consulting just from a strategic point of view for visa issues and all that good stuff, right? But it's like my background, and that's where I thought, you know, it'd be easier for me to break in rather than invest in banking. But at the same time, the one thing that I knew that my mentor from India told me that banking is where you should be.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:21] So this was an actual investment bank. This was a bank.
BrownChad: [00:37:25] Yeah, it's a small bank. It take like people in over there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:29] What kind of deals were they doing?
BrownChad: [00:37:32] Uh, like five million, $10 million meals,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:35] There's far smaller like, yeah, a little bit too. Ok.
BrownChad: [00:37:39] Yeah. And literally like there was just one more associate, you know who'd gone, who joined in right out of undergrad and he didn't. He didn't become majors before. So he was trying to explain to me what a DCF is, and he was clueless. Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that he spent like two years over there. I don't know how, but like he was trying to explain DCF and he was all over the place. He didn't know anything about anything, nor did I. But, you know, like, that was dad, and I think that experience was initially really good for me because I'm like, Oh my God, investment banking, I finally made it. I was making peanuts like they offered me 50000, which is like nothing. But I was just excited that like, I have something right? And, you know, I broke in essentially, and my goal was to work for two years and move on. And that's what they said. Like, you know, work and get out.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:29] Yeah. So, so is a fifty thousand base any sort of bonus? Or did they say something? Did they say that up front? Or was it surprise when they gave it
BrownChad: [00:38:38] To you in the contract? Yeah, yeah. I know they said they get 20000. Ok. So yeah, so that was structured. There was like two partners, one partner guy from another big bank, and he came in. He was only a really nice guy like who really understood, you know, like value. People like treat people nicely and like everybody else, just treated people really, really poorly. And like the culture was really bad. Like I felt bad even having lunch. Like, I felt like, oh my God, like I shouldn't be eating lunch on my desk, you know? And like, never saw the door open, like I was sitting with the receptionist because they don't have one and they didn't have more space.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:18] And what do you mean You couldn't eat lunch? Why? Why did you feel like you couldn't eat lunch? What do you mean by that?
BrownChad: [00:39:22] I don't know, man. Like, uh, they're just like, Look at you like so differently. And like, just like the conversations like in the company, it's like, Oh my god, yeah, I don't have time to even eat lunch today. And like, everybody is just talking like that. But everybody, I mean, one other associates and like a 70 year old V.P., I don't know how is he there? But like, yeah, like the three of us.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:42] And it sounds like a little bit of the blind leading the blind. But OK, so the associates are trying to train associates trying to train you, and he doesn't even know what a DC game you're walking through a DCF and then the Oh, that's funny. Ok, so but then everyone's acting super busy and like, Oh, I got all these pitches to do so. I assume most of your work was pitch work and you weren't doing a ton of live deal work.
BrownChad: [00:40:04] Right. No, actually, that seven live deals. Oh, wow. You know, the way live deals are defined is like cast a wide net and see like, you know, what you can get. And so I think like they just like they go for anything that they can get their hands on, right? So that's how I felt with the process over there, which is good and bad for me. Because Patrick, I didn't know anything about the business school. They didn't teach you anything about presentations and like, you know, even excel and all that stuff excel knowledge I had from before, from my time. Yeah. And I think in India, and I was decent at that. But like, I didn't really know financial modelling or anything else, that was kind of a bummer, but like presentations like I had no idea about. Yeah, but I think I did learn a lot. The one thing that I think was an advantage was the fact that I'm pretty diligent and I feel like I can spot like the full stops and the whatever like punctuation mistakes and all that stuff. And being from another country where, like English as a second language, I think you really understand grammar more. And so, you know, you're able to like, see those things faster because when you're studying for the GED, I think unlike an American student, you know where you understand the concept and the meaning behind it. You know, Indian student or like in my particular case, for myself and I look for semantic mistakes or like any other kind of errors, and that would help me get an answer. So I think I had an eye for that and that's what I was trying to leverage at the forum. Does that make sense?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:29] Totally makes my mom's club from Columbia, and she has better grammar than I do, so it makes total sense English as a second language. She's a better writer and a better and has better, much better grammar. So yes, it makes a lot of sense.
BrownChad: [00:41:39] Right, right. And so, so yeah. So that was done like obviously the partners used to shout at you like all the time and like it was, it was really a big culture shock for me because I wasn't used to like, you know, coming from like. And even at the other consulting firm for my internship, I think people were like, you know, I'm not saying they were like nice or like, you know, taking you for like lunches and dinners every day. But they were they treated you as human beings over here if it's a complete sweatshop.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:03] So they were screaming. You were getting screamed at. Tell me. Tell me. Give me some. Give me an example. Like, what was when did it get the worse?
BrownChad: [00:42:09] Sure. Yeah. Like, I think day one onwards, like before the interview, like everybody is like nice and happy and everything. The first day of their job as it is, it's intimidating. The way it started for me is I started seeing how much the partner was shouting at the other associate and, you know, like that guy used to grind. And I guess like because I came in the mix and he was just right undergrad and worked there for three years. His dad was a senior associate and I was an associate and he was a senior associate when I joined it. I guess what Typekit purposes? Yeah, and they used to shout me like a lot like, I don't know, like, you know, how he took it, but I wasn't a big fan of the guy, but I really felt bad for him. And so if that speaks volumes about, like, how the culture was and so I felt like that's when, you know, when like somebody else is scolding somebody else, you automatically become scared of that person. That's what was happening.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:03] Got it. So when did you first get? When did you first get yelled at, I guess, during this
BrownChad: [00:43:08] Tape, I guess, like within a week, like it didn't take long. It's like, you know, that stuff forced you to do this. Like, you know, there's why isn't this happening or like something? I can't even remember specifics, I guess. But I do remember, just like really shitty atmosphere, like really just bad.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:23] But what were you? Were you working hard? Like, were you putting in long hours?
BrownChad: [00:43:28] Oh, yeah, I think I definitely was. I think a part of the equation was also the fact that I didn't have like any finance experience like, you know, financial modeling or whatever it was the blind leading the blind situation, and that was also more frustrating for everybody. Yeah. And yeah, you know, by the end of the day, my partner did say, you know, like things weren't working out. So he was just like, You're really hard working guy. And I really appreciate that. But it's just like, you know, you, it's like four. You give an example for himself. It's like, it's like for me, I'm trying to learn chemistry and it's like that different. So he said, like, maybe this field is not right field for you. Maybe you should go to consulting and all that good stuff. But yeah, like I guess to answer your question. It just wasn't working, I like and I wanted to be there, even that shitty atmosphere, just so that I could spend enough time and go around and gorge myself and train. Yeah, I think in the first like two months or something like, you know, like, we had that discussion where he was just like, yep, like, you know, I think it's getting tough.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:27] And so basically, start looking for a job, start looking for a job, basically is what he's telling you. Right? Right? You're going to get fired worse. You're going to get fired, basically, is what you telling? He's telling you.
BrownChad: [00:44:39] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Ok. And I actually wrote a post on Wall Street with just around the same time because somebody else wrote something about being fired and all, and they were sharing the experience. And I'm like, Listen, it's better to get fired early on that later because it makes things always work out for themselves. And I talk about that in a second, but yeah, yeah, like that was happening. And to make things worse, the other associate like, you know, who was in the company for a long time got another offer with another bank like a big bank. Uh oh.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:45:12] Your work just doubled. Your work just doubled.
BrownChad: [00:45:15] I know I'm so they were like, Okay, like, this is getting really tough. And so they ended up hiring another guy. And yeah, like, I don't think I mentioned this. All of them were extremely like racist, obviously, like, you know, like extreme politically like on one side, like hardcore Republicans, they really were like restaurants where it's like support groups and such. And that's basically like, you know, I don't really care, like, I just want to work and, you know, be somewhere. So I didn't really give a damn about anything, but they, you know, always had that undertone. And I remember when they were hiring more people, like one time like, you know, there was a Muslim guy who came in and the VP made a comment because they took him out for lunch and everything, and the V.P. made a comment to me, you know? Oh, yeah, when he ordered this food, he was a good brother. Like, he didn't order that specific thing and the way he looked like the waitress and stuff like that. I was just like, What the hell? Like, you're like, What are you saying? Yeah, crazy.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:14] Like, what year are we in? Right?
BrownChad: [00:46:16] Yeah, yeah. With that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:18] What year are we in? It's almost like, what year are we in?
BrownChad: [00:46:20] Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Thank you. Crazy. And then I know another guy came from somewhere else. And I guess, like, you know, he wasn't very comfortable, just like being in their office because that office just makes you look or feel like, I guess, that of sort. And you know, again, the same VP guy like who used to talk. He made a comment. He's like, Yeah, I think he was a little too stiff, like trying to indicate that he's gay and he's like, This is so fricking crazy. And then, you know, I think the MeToo movement was happening at the time. So like all the women candidates coming through, I think they made like a passing comment about that. Like, Yeah,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:58] It seems like a toxic place in general. It just seems like a talk. Yeah, I know. Yeah, that's never good. But anyways, so how did you deal with it? So the other guy left, it sounds like to a bigger bank and you're left with the bag of, you know, they wanted to fire you. But yet now you have double the work. So they're probably like, Hey, we've got to hold on to this to you for a little bit longer. So tell me how that play out. Yeah.
BrownChad: [00:47:23] Well, I knew that they were like recruiting like they were talking to other like candidates and other associates and such. And so, you know, I knew that my time is going to come to over soon. And so I did. I mean, I was already reaching out to people on LinkedIn, try and look for jobs and such and then trying to figure out if something works out for me. I reached out to all the, I guess, investment banks in my vicinity in Baltimore and around, and then eventually I met this guy who was the CEO of a company. And I guess he had also gotten fired recently or like there was a COO and they kicked him out or something like that. And he had an investment bank in before. And then he'd come to Baltimore for being the CEO of this company. And essentially, I got I linked up with him and I met with him and he had one cell type process that he had just started actually by side process that he just started off with. And he needed a helping hand. And so at my job, I was now getting paid hourly instead of like a monthly salary. And so, you know, I knew that my time is coming to an end. So then I made the natural switch from where I was to this guy to the hourly
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:36] Position just to get out of that toxic environment. You said,
BrownChad: [00:48:41] I'm just trying to, with the toxic environment, started paying me hourly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:48:44] Oh, they did. Oh OK.
BrownChad: [00:48:45] Oh, OK. Yeah, because yeah, so that like that had happened. And so, yeah, I was now working for this guy as well as that guy or like both people. And now this guy, the one man shop seemed like a really great guy, a good opportunity. And that, like at least it was good for me to hold on to. And, you know, he asked me the first time when we met is like, OK, so you know, what do you want? And you're a long term? And I was upfront with him. I'm like, Well, I want to get. And about a year or two, I want to move to a more mature platform, but I want to spend a significant part of my career and grow as if it was like, OK. And then I pretty much started working with him and I had a client in the Midwest. So, you know, he flew me in with him through the client and just kicked off from there and I started working with him. I was and he didn't pay me anything. It was zero. And so initially, like, I think, a month or two, it was nothing. And then he started paying me like ten dollars an hour. Oh my God. And then he said, Where are you finding these people anyways?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:50] Oh, good. Ok, so OK. So you're getting paid hourly part time at the talk. I'll call it the toxic boutique. And then you're taking on this other kind of side project to try and get a get out. But you're going to get getting paid zero just to kind of be this guy's assistant almost like an associate. Yeah. Ok. But he's flying you out. Whatever showing the client that he has, it's more than just him. Ok?
BrownChad: [00:50:15] Right, right. Exactly, exactly. That's what it is. And so, yeah, like I work with him in that transition phase. There was like a month when I think I didn't have anything like any money flowing in from anywhere. And so like whatever little peanuts I had, like I lived on that. Plus, like, you know, I asked my parents for some help. And then this guy started like, you know, he got me on board, he said, like, ten dollars an hour or something like that. And then he said that I'm keeping a track of the number of hours you're working. And because, you know, I really wanted to prove myself and really be great and all that stuff, and also because it was just a lot of work because it's just him and me. So right from like booking flights to hotels to making the pitch deck and, you know, models and whatnot, I was doing everything. Yeah, and in nutshell, every month he just paid me a thousand dollars. And so like, he paid me for like, I guess, 100 hours, whereas, you know, like way more like, I think
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:07] You were working like three hundred hours or $400 a month. And he was right, right? Geez, man, you are. You were, you know how to find these people, huh? You know how to find the great bosses,
BrownChad: [00:51:19] If I could. You know, if you're really interested in something, you want to do it, you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:23] Know, Hey, man, hey, hey, look here. You're employed, I guess. I mean, you're barely making rent, probably. But OK, so you're yeah, you're surviving. You're working with this guy who's paying you a thousand dollars a month. Tell me, tell me, what was your thought process? Were you still just searching for another job?
BrownChad: [00:51:37] I assume during that I was at the same time, you know? Yeah, like at the same time, this thing was maturing more. So, you know, I was just like, All right, let me close this deal. And then there was a carrot at the end of the deal that, you know, he's going to pay me like X amount of money. So I was like, All right, so that's something.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:52] But, you know, like what was the carrot like five thousand ten thousand or something?
BrownChad: [00:51:57] Well, he said seventy thousand by the end of it, but I didn't, I didn't make it to that, so that was that. But, you know, I think that's again the same thing, like big talk and like, no pay day. But like, I feel like the team at that time was just him and myself. And then the apartment building where I was there was a conference room and I stayed in really nice apartment building because then I graduated. I had this job and, you know, I just wanted to say somewhere better and not be shot when I'm walking in the night. So, yeah, he used to come to that apartment building. He used to work out of the conference room over there. And then I just actually keep working for like three or four people that should have been working for this deal. And then I think I started going out with him to the client side more often. We had a really strong private equity group, which is really a great experience for me because initially we started on a buy side project, then we switched to a set aside and then the buyers are free group based out of Chicago. So that was another great experience to interact with a legit big group and like had, you know, like good like companies like. Big like uniforms and stuff come in the mix, and like I, our with the, you know, Kiwi group. And so the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:13] Quality of earnings of. Yeah, you were seeing you were basically seeing all the diligence being done and you're getting
BrownChad: [00:53:20] At least some data rooms. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I never set up a data room before. I didn't know what that looks like, what that means, but I just pretended that, you know, everything is familiar to me. So I didn't say yes or no about like having done this or not before, I just didn't. And again, like, I look at somebody before when I was in business school and I met this person a long time back, who is the owner of a data room company. So I got his company at like two thousand bucks or like something really cheap, which is great for the client and everybody is impressed. And I had his team like, literally walk me through like, what a data room is, how do you set it and whatnot? And I and I learned it all. I did it all myself.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:53:56] Your network bailed you out, your network build. You have, you're hustling basically. Ok.
BrownChad: [00:54:02] Yeah. So it was it was interesting. I'm still in touch with that guy. Like great guy. But anyway, so with this guy, I started working. I started doing this entire deal. I learned all this, and at the same time, I started looking for interns from my school because I was still in Baltimore, so I could go back to my school and like, ask for, you know, interns because I wanted to give back to my school. I'm a big believer of that. And B, I also wanted help and I didn't want to pay anybody. So I was up front about that. They're listed. There's no pay day over here, but it's a great experience and opportunity. And you know, as you would imagine, more people than not like, you know, came up and they were like, Hey, I'd love for an opportunity. Surprisingly, I had more international students like Indians and Chinese than Americans, but which was really surprising because I would imagine that anybody who wants to break in banking would do that. We, you know, would want to come. But I guess, you know, there's a big question about pay and all that, and I guess this makes sense when you want to work for free anyway. So like, I had some. I also got some first-hand experience in like managing resources because till now, you know, fairly young guy. I never really managed a team or anything of that sort myself. So learning great experience and we closed that deal. And, you know, I went through the entire legal diligence process and he still did.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:19] But he didn't pay you. He still didn't pay you. Or there was
BrownChad: [00:55:22] He was paying me. No. So that's sorry. I forgot to mention that kept increasing and started paying me like a thousand dollars a month. And then I think it became like 500 a month, and then it became 3000 a month by the end of the year.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:37] Ok, a little better.
BrownChad: [00:55:38] So yeah, it's a little better. Yeah, yeah, I was like that. Yeah. And so, so yeah. So that was the cycle that like he kept and he realized very soon he realized that I'm doing like five people's job and more, and he got my business cards and all that stuff. And he didn't say like associate or analyst or anything on my business card. And I asked him once why he's like the clients don't to know who you are because I think the client is, you know, like nobody asked, but I think they all assumed that, you know, I'm a VP or something. The way that I was carrying more than the ideal. And so that kind of made sense. And once I'd seen like there was a billing sheet where, you know, he had everybody's names for hourly billing, for the client and even the interns and all. And he was just charging like a lawyer. And I was like, Oh my god, I can. You know, if you pay me like a fraction of this, that'd be great.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:56:26] But so he finally started. So you guys were billing the client like so it was almost like a consulting role. It wasn't just deals.
BrownChad: [00:56:32] It was, yeah, there was a successful attach to it, but very minimal. Yeah. But it was mostly like, you know, an hour. I guess it was like a success. You split in half and half after closing and half before and before. What was billed by the hour got a lot of time put in and stuff like that. So something like that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:56:51] What was he charged? What was he charging the client? If you're open to sharing that it was, it was like two hundred bucks an hour or something like that or three hundred something like that.
BrownChad: [00:56:57] Yeah, it's crazy. It wasn't. It wasn't like, I mean, I guess not crazy for the investment banking world, but like for a one man shop without an office or anything, it was definitely lot. So, yeah, so that happened. Long story short, like this guy was doing this business, I got a good experience. The private equity guys really like me. Not that I was looking for opportunity there, but Patrick again, this is why LinkedIn helped me out. The managing director at the Private Equity Shop, who was buying the company that I was selling, I was already connected with him during my business school days because I reached out to him for a phone chat and I like to remember each other when we met him. Like, that name. Sounds familiar, and I check on my phone and my excel sheet where I keep on top of everything. Yeah, and I've spoken with him like two years time. So I'm, you know, I am like, Hey, you know, x y z, like, I spoke with you there and he's like, Of course. Yeah, like you, you were in Baltimore, even Hopkins. And I'm like, Yeah, so you're like, Oh, yeah, of course. How about you, look? So things kind of worked out for you. That's great. And that was really exciting for me. You know, being. You might have no one. And now being kind of plugged in the yeah,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:58:08] Hey, you're working your way in, you're working your way in. It's a cool man. I'm happy to hear that he started paying you more because a thousand dollars a month is scary, but three. So like by the end, by within one year, you're getting about three thousand, but you had been working super long. It sounds like you're working 80 hours a week, at least.
BrownChad: [00:58:24] Yeah, definitely like a crazy number of hours that the interns that I had, like they were just like, surprised they thought like they had like a good work ethic, which I think they did, and they were really great. But, you know, they were like, the clients respect you. They're like. And I feel good about myself, Patrick, because, you know, not only so in this entire time, I'm also taking like, you know, fashion modelling classes, trying to like model more and more modelling at the same time taking like, you know, like those PowerPoint courses and stuff like that. Yeah. For the purposes of this podcast, let's just say that it was Wall Street or training session, but like, no, I got whatever training material I can get online. And I bought some from like other places and I was just learning as much as I could. That's awesome. PowerPoint, like one of those courses, is really great for me. But anyway, I think that experience is really great. And right after that, we didn't have anything going on. Luckily for me, there was another small company that we were initially looking at buying for the company that we sold, and we ended up selling that company to the private equity group again. And so I got a chance to like, sell another company with the same group and pretty much go through the same process. And so they already knew me and the I guess I did like create like a respect for myself in there in that. Yeah. You know, like really worked hard. I think that was just the underlying factor. Like, I don't think I'm smart or this or that. I just think I'm a very hard working guy. And even from other podcasts and stuff that I've heard, Patrick, I think that's the underlying tone I've heard and seen everywhere, extremely hardworking and don't give up. And so. So, yeah, so anyway, so like this deals go. The other deals goes, he said. He's going to give me like 30000 for the first deal. He said he's going to give me 70000 and he paid me twenty five, OK, which is a big deal because I didn't really have anything, and I think he realized that he really needed me because he didn't have anybody else. Yeah, and also at the same time, why don't?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:00:19] Why didn't he? Why didn't he pay you 70, like you said he would? Do you think it was just he like, Oh, he just didn't? Okay. Did he say anything when he paid you the twenty five? Did he say anything? No. So like,
BrownChad: [01:00:31] That's a good question. So like, he's changed his rhetoric during the coming months. Initially started off with 70, and then it was just like, Oh yeah, like, you know, by the end of the year, you'll be making one hundred and twenty five thousand dollars and then it just switched to four fifty. That says you'll get like $30000. And then like, you know, it was all over the place. It wasn't like a one sided number. But I do remember, like because he used to send me like check. So in one of the mails he'd written, like, You've been working really hard and I want you to know you're a great guy and all that stuff. And that really was kind of good that he recognized my efforts initially. But and then he said, like, you know, you're going to get like this much for this deal. And then by the end of the day, the number changed. So that was kind of shitty, but I was just happy that I had something.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:01:15] You got something. Yeah, at least you got something right.
BrownChad: [01:01:18] You got a taste. So the second deal, right? It's the second deal, he said that he's going to pay me 30000. And the second is very close. He gave me five thousand and that's the time I asked him. And he's like, But I've been doing all the work. I've been doing everything I made, the mistake I made. He says that which is not true. And yeah. I mean, said that till date. So I'm like, Okay, sure, that's not true. But okay. Ok. So yeah, so that happened. Like, I mean, I say, like, you know, in this industry, people do recognize the fact that there's a great opportunity for hardworking people. And so, you know, they realize that you want this more than they want you, even though it might not be true because I think they really do want people like you. And I guess. And so it's just a game like where you think you can leverage somebody. So, so yeah, so that happened. I think at that point in time, he started paying me like five thousand. I guess it
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:02:18] Was still that's equivalent of a sixty thousand dollars salary. But OK, yeah, you're still you're supposedly you're running the whole deal, but it's crazy to me. But OK, continue, right?
BrownChad: [01:02:28] Right. And it's always sporadic mind you like, it's hard. Like, you know, it's going to be like the same cause. Like, there would be an effort to do that. But you know, it's not guaranteed that like you will get, maybe it's wasn't you if I think it was just like four thousand or three thousand five hundred or something like that. I think five thousand became the graduate. But anyway, so that happened. And then we close a second deal, which is great. But also like I think what a very important part of the entire conversation I interviewed was, I want to say I almost like eight or nine other big banks by big. I mean, like, you know, like Lazard and like Bear and you know, GNP and like. Jack is on all these really nice banks there during the phone call on the government side and made it to the final round, and when I say, like, interviewed, I mean, like interviewed, I made it to the Super Day and for some reason or the other, ever since the beginning, it never worked out, and I always kept a note of why it didn't work out more often than not. I would say, like two out of ten times I get feedback.
BrownChad: [01:03:24] So I'd really like, you know, value that feedback. And initially it was because I hadn't closed any deals and I didn't have any deal experience. Then it became more about like my technical skills weren't on point, etc. and I knew that my technical skills were doing fine. So I really started like working hard and like, you know, grilling out on that aspect. And I remember my last interview was with Piper Jaffray. And really excited about it. I think everything went great and they really liked me. But I got dinged on the MD, got on a call with me for feedback, and he said, Yeah, you know, like, I think the technical were a little questionable because I understood that thing, and I think that didn't give us comfort. And then you said that your presentation skills were really great, but it didn't really match up when we were like looking at it, when we gave you that test product, whichever, whatever they had given it to me. And I think the lesson that I learned from there is I always used to overpay myself or not even overpay. I'm a very confident guy. So, you know, sometimes when I think when I say something, it has, it has a greater
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:04:29] You learn to you, learn, you learn to undersell a little bit more up front and be a little more humble up front so that you know they don't have. You don't set the bar too high for yourself and then come in under expectations. Yeah, it's an important lesson. Yeah. Yeah, it's an improvement.
BrownChad: [01:04:43] Yeah. And you know, and I thought like, Hey, I did this course. I know how to like align boxes like, you know, horizontally and vertically. So I know like presentation and, you know, I couldn't have been more wrong. So I think I just learned the hard way. But the good news is that like, you know, I never, ever gave up. And in this entire transition period, after the second team closed, my boss asked me to move because that's where he had moved, and it was a hard move for me because, you know, really nothing else going on. I don't even know if he's going to give me my next month's salary or not or what's going on, but I did make the transition to. I lived in a shoebox because I knew that I didn't want to be there for long term. So literally a shoe box like I think my apartment was maybe like three hundred nine. Oh my gosh, maybe like a hundred and fifty square feet, maybe two hundred square foot or something like really small. Like, I'm a six. I mean, I'm a really tall guy. Yeah, really tall guy. And if I stretch my arms, I could touch both sides like that. And it was a furnished apartment. So I like that. Like there was a small bed and all that stuff, and that kind of gave me more motivation to like, get the hell out of there. It was just like, Do your thing like lawnmower. And so there was a public library, like a not a public, like a university library, somewhere close by my place. Yeah, I used to go there in the evening after work and study and do questions for interviews and such. And so every day, like I'd walk like from 8:30 to 9:00 or like not 9:00, from 8:30 to 8:30 and 9:00 or 9:30 to like 11:30, I'd go and like study cheese and like. And at this point in time, you know, I wasn't studying like everything. I was more focused towards the questions that I've been asked in interviews before and how that has gone and been. And so I was more focused. So now I interviewed with my pronunciation. But with Calvin p.O.W. Here in New York. Yeah. And yeah, so the industrials group and all that, but it's really great. I bought it again through the deal room guy that I mentioned, the guy like who gave us
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:06:47] The deal room guy. Yeah, the deal room guy gave you a good the deal. He got you this interview.
BrownChad: [01:06:52] And he connected me with an associate at Calvin, and that associate passed my resume into the air, and that's how this got your phone calls and I got that interview in New York and they flew me in. So that was that story. So I went there for my interview. I did like really well and I didn't get the job. They put me on hold or like, I guess on standby, I guess, and then give it to somebody else. But I did really well. And the guy like who would take my technical like he asked me some questions, which is so basic to me by that point in time. And he's like, Oh, so that's really good that, you know, like, oh, inventory does not really get matched on the income statement. Not a lot of people get that right. Like so I remember that specific statement that he made and he said, you did really well. And so I was really just happy. I mean, sure, like, I didn't get the job. So it was kind of a bummer, but I was just so happy that I was kneeling my. Yeah, you knew you were.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:07:44] You knew you were better. You knew you were better. At that point, you had put in the work. Yeah, right.
BrownChad: [01:07:48] Make sense, right? You know, the associate would like to look me in like he sent me an email. He's like, Hey, I spoke with the H.R. I got a feedback and they said, like, you have a big passion for investment banking and your technical skills are really strong. It's just that they found somebody else better or more suitable for this position based out of New York or something. So I think location is also a big part of the entire situation. And now I am in, you don't have any deals going on. We have this pseudo-like buy side deal that we're working on. But there's a big question. We don't know how much are we going to get paid and all that stuff. By this point in time, you know, we do have an office space and all that stuff happening, but it's not like, you know, you have access to Capital IQ or Pitchbook. It's pretty much, you know, you learn whatever you learn yourself. Right. And so. So that was interesting. And you know,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:08:35] When did you decide? I mean, at this point, I mean, when you think, are you going to pull the plug or are you just going to keep kind of working for this guy getting what you can while you just keep interviewing? Was that the idea?
BrownChad: [01:08:45] Yeah, that's exactly the idea that we keep getting like whatever peanuts you're getting. Yeah. So you can like float and really fucking pardon my French for, like, really work hard and like, you know, nail it and they get a job and they have that as a motivation. And so I didn't mention this, but you know, in my personal life, like I was seeing somebody and like, you know, we kind of like broke up and stuff like that. And so I had a therapist that I talked to on the phone super cheap. It's not like, you know, like therapists or whatever, like 30 bucks or something. Yeah, you know, I hear you. And so she really, like, pushed me hard and like, so that was a big influence for myself. And I tried, you know, and being an Indian guy from India, you know, like having a therapist is such a big taboo and like such a big stink. But good for you. Good for you. Yeah, anybody in life you should like have somebody that you can have honest, open conversations with. But. So she used to really like guide me and mold me and like I used to be honest with her about like what works and what doesn't. And, you know, I still talk to her till date.
BrownChad: [01:09:45] Once a week, and it really does help me a lot. So for sure. But yeah, like I thought, like, you know, I keep working because of time. Things like don't improve, but like, I'm not just waiting for things to improve, I'm working hard towards getting that. And then just meanwhile, you know, my parents are also like trying to be helpful towards me. They're like, Hey, son, you know, if you think that investment banking isn't like making it, why don't you look at other opportunities or like, you know, be there for you and right and all that good stuff. And I was just like, Thank you, but no thank you. That was hard for me. You know, like this girl that I was seeing, like, I really love her. And like, you know, she said, Hey, maybe it's not your thing. And then like once my parents said that, like my mom said that it, you know, it didn't like hurt or whatever it was just like, you know, you think that those people will have confidence in you no matter what happens, right? And they're seeing this with the best intentions and with all the love in the world. But that was something that just made me question myself. And you know, that was because
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:10:45] You're so close to the people. Yeah, they're the people like most close to you. You want you think they're going to keep pushing you. And but they probably just saw how you were hurting and you were struggling and they probably just wanted to maybe help you find something, you know, either. Yeah. And so they were trying to kind of push you in a different direction because you had at this point you had struck out like nine times if I'm counting right or more so, you know, so it's not necessarily misguided, but so OK. So yeah, it's give me some give me, but you know, you're hanging, you're hanging around. You were still getting, you're still surviving, paying for food, you know, and. Right, right. Living in a shoebox and making the sacrifices you needed to make to stay afloat. So yeah. So tell me, how did what happened when you, you know, before we wrap up, I just want to hear like what happened at the end? Like what? What happened in that final transition? And how did you finally do it?
BrownChad: [01:11:36] Find transition with this job? You know, they invited me to New York. I flew in there and met the partner at the team crush and technical crush. Everything like really did well came back. And at this point in time, I'm so used to just like talking to people and, you know, like getting feedback. We really like you, and we really enjoyed speaking with you, but unfortunately, you know, I don't think this is the right fit. So the vice president of the group asked me if I can talk to him and you know, I step out of my office, went down to the parking lot and I called him up. And he's just like, Hey, by the way, we really enjoyed speaking with you, and we think your skill sets are really impressive. And, you know, and I'm quiet because like, OK, now he's going to be like. But if I talk about that, he kept saying all that good stuff. And then towards the end, he said, and we would want to extend the offer to use. I would want to be I want to do a first one to say that to you. And then he was so quiet and like, I was quiet and he was like, because I was waiting for him to, like, complete his sentence. And I was hysterical. And he was just like. And I just wanted to see your reaction and your thoughts on that. I was just like, I feel like I wouldn't die like. And I was like, you know, like, thank you so much. Like, I can't begin to tell you, like, you know, how happy I am, and I'm very excited about the opportunity, and I think I just try to keep myself composed. Also my excitement, but
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:12:58] Not be like breaking down on the phone, not breaking down like, yeah,
BrownChad: [01:13:03] Yeah, exactly. So like I said, that happened. And you know, the rest is history. I have like working super hard now like, you know, trying to give it my best and really grateful to God for where I am.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:13:15] That's awesome, man. Yeah, it's really inspirational story. I think it's it's one of perseverance and a lot of sacrifice and something that I think it is a theme that runs throughout all the podcasts, and it's something that hopefully the listeners kind of take to heart that it's not all glamour. A lot of if you want to make it, you got to grind sometimes and you've got to be willing to make the sacrifice. A lot of people say they are, but here you are. You actually you. You did it and you worked for years, years and very bad. And to be honest, very tough. One toxic environment. One just very tough situation where you at least we're getting good experience, though, and I think that's something to take home as well. Cool. So anything else you want to share with the listeners before we call it?
BrownChad: [01:13:56] Uh, no, I think, like, you know, honestly has been great, like, I'm not saying that because Patrick and I'm doing this podcast or whatever, I genuinely, you know, I've really relied on it a lot of times, just like read about interviews whenever I'm applying to any other place or anything else going on. And I think and everybody always says the same thing. Don't give up if you're there. If you're struggling, you know, seek mentorship like, look for people to talk to do not give up. Like if you can have the drive to get a job, you will get it. There's nothing in the world that's going to stop you from getting that job.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [01:14:27] That's great, man. Let's end on that. I love it. Thank you so much for joining, and thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street, Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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