WSO Podcast | E70: Goldman IB Associate Makes the Leap to Private Equity
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In this episode, member @LouiseBouge shares her path from an investment banking analyst at a bulge bracket bank to getting her JD/MBA. Learn the common blind spot she had when choosing what bank to join out of undergrad as well as why she chose Goldman to continue her banking career after her graduate degree. Also, learn how she managed to pivot to private equity and a shocking comment made by a partner during final round interviews...
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WSO Podcast (Episode 70) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis, your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, member Louise bouge shares her path from an investment banking analyst at a bulge bracket bank to getting her JD MBA. Learn the common blind spot she had when choosing what bank to join out of undergrad, as well as why she chose Goldman to continue her banking career after her graduate degree. Also, learn how she managed to pivot to private equity and a shocking comment made by a partner during final round interviews. Enjoy. All right. Louis Bouygues, thanks for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
LouiseBouge: [00:01:05] Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm a huge fan of the podcast world, and so it's really exciting to be a part of one cool.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:12] So it'd be awesome if you could give the listeners a short summary of your background.
LouiseBouge: [00:01:16] Yeah. So I after I graduated from college, I started as an analyst at a bank. Both worked for two years and then went back to grad school and did a JD MBA program after grad school transitioned back to banking. But at a different firm at Goldman and then transitioned into private equity shortly after my two years as an associate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:44] Awesome. So that's pretty rare. So you went banking two years, so undergrad banking two years JD, MBA, then banking again as an associate at Goldman. And then you went P.E.. So I think everyone that's listen to the podcast, anyone that's been on WCCO knows that it's extremely difficult, difficult to transition to private equity unless you have pre MBA private equity experience. So what was the thought process? Were you always set like? Gung ho on private equity, when you went to get your MBA, or was it something that you kind of later discovered you wanted?
LouiseBouge: [00:02:17] I wasn't. I think I took a very scholastic approach to my career. So in transitioning from my analyst years into the JD MBA program, I was looking for a program that offered from the legal perspective, sort of. Like a space in teaching to me of the basic understandings of law, so in the future, if I were to do transactions, then I'd be able to holistically understand both the legal and the business considerations. But at the same time, there's also this very scholastic side of me that's like, OK, I get to go to one of the greatest law schools. And then essentially what law school is, is you're learning about history through a legal lens. And I thought that'd be really fun. So I went back for three years and then the transition back into banking afterwards. I didn't really consider P. At that point. I went to a school that wasn't really strong with recruiting more so on the mutual fund side. And after a couple rounds of interviews there, I realized that's not something that I was that interested in. And when the Goldman opportunity came along, it was also very different from my analyst experience. One. the bank had M&A embedded into the industry groups, the bank was strong and all the products Across the board. So previously I was at a bank that was only more so stronger on the lending side. But now
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:38] Let's start. Yeah, let's go back to that. Let's go back to your undergrad. So thanks for that little spiel in terms of so private equity wasn't on the horizon. It wasn't something where you were like, I eventually want to go do that. It kind of eventually came.
LouiseBouge: [00:03:51] I was definitely open to it, but I definitely wasn't the type of person that's like, OK, banking is the means in it and I would transition out in a couple of years.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:58] Ok, fair. So let's go back to undergrad days because I think the list just to go sequentially will help the listeners fall along. Let's talk about when did you think, Hey, I want to go finance or was this something like my freshman year? You knew I'm going to start recruiting right away for investment banking? Or was this something where you kind of came into it late?
LouiseBouge: [00:04:20] To be honest, back when I went to school, it was a lot less intense, so you didn't have to make that commitment that early on. So I was able to explore marketing, accounting, finance, and I definitely like finance the most. I thought it was the most challenging, challenging field, and that's sort of what my personality caters to. I like it's fast pace. I like both the interpersonal and the technical aspect of the job and how, at least in the banking perspective, it sort of yields and looks for a person that's well rounded. And that's how I thought of myself at the time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:54] Was it recruiting tough out of your school? I mean, you went to a pretty good school that has pretty good. You know, connections into Wall Street, so did you feel like it was competitive, did you feel like you like where your grades really high? So it wasn't that hard to get interviews or what was your experience like?
LouiseBouge: [00:05:09] I think it was competitive within the school, but because the school is very well reputed and has connections to the bank was very seamless process. I think the banks come on to campus for maybe two to three weeks and you meet everyone across the banks to your interviews and then you're pretty much done there from from then on.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:25] And was it any kind of anything in terms of like? I guess unexpected during those interview processes that you wish you had prepped more for.
LouiseBouge: [00:05:37] To be honest, it was a long time ago, but not anything striking to my memory.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:44] And then when you actually started the process where you just doing it, sounds like it was all on campus, right? Kind of set up for you. How many do you remember how many kind of resume drops you, you did and how many interviews you got?
LouiseBouge: [00:05:57] I probably I probably applied to them all across the board, so I probably got three. Yeah, exactly something, maybe in the teens and then probably got interviews all across the board. And then I filtered from like, then there was like the first round and then the second rounds. And so it just sort of narrow down. I think I ended up with. Three offers and then chose the chose the one that I
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:28] That's really impressive. That's really impressive. I think that's a lot of people come out and getting one offer is kind of a dream, so getting three is awesome. So you see you went from about 15 resume drops. Correct me if I'm wrong first round, did you? So you did. You got first round interviews that almost all of them?
LouiseBouge: [00:06:46] Yeah, I think my I think at that time was GPA based only, and my GPA was high enough to where I got four first rounds everywhere.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:54] Got it. And so did you end up doing first rounds everywhere?
LouiseBouge: [00:06:57] I don't entirely remember, if not everywhere. Probably most of them. Yeah, exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:03] Ok. So then you did first rounds at around, let's say, 10 places. You got second rounds or final rounds at four five places. I think so. Yeah. and then three offers. Ok, so that's really impressive. And so then when you were going through this process where you. Did you find that you had to know a lot of technical questions, or did you feel like where you set yourself apart was like behavioural ? How did you feel like you? Why do you feel like you got so many offers besides the high GPA and coming from a good school?
LouiseBouge: [00:07:33] I think at that point, the technicals are very rote. It's very much like if you read the mergers and acquisitions book, that was more than enough. Yeah. And then the behavior is at that point were also pretty simple because at that point, you haven't had that much work experience. So there's only so much that you can say. But I think just coming from a good school and having the GPA really helped.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:54] Yeah, no, for sure. So you're basically going through this, you get the three offers. What makes you decide on the bank that you that you did? So you have to say what it is, what bank it is, but it was a bulge bracket, large bank. Was it because the other ones were smaller? Was it something about the firm itself?
LouiseBouge: [00:08:14] Yeah, it was. Definitely. The other ones are smaller, a little less well reputed. I definitely had a lesser of an understanding of the differences between the banks than I do now. So it was just thinking I had a bulge bracket. You could get a wide variety of experience.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:28] And so when you started those analysts years, what was the biggest surprise? When you first started. Huh. Because you did. You didn't and you did a summer analyst stint there, I assume. Yeah. And so that process, was there anything when you went through that internship process? Was it more like the honeymoon phase where they're like not working you too hard? Or were you working like 80 plus hour weeks? What was it like that?
LouiseBouge: [00:08:52] It was probably somewhere in between. It wasn't something super terrible. I don't think my analysts years were that bad as well. I think in retrospect, one of the things is I didn't realize that you like the bank, that you went to their strongest, that one thing and you'll end up doing that one thing. So, you know, at twenty two, you don't take that into consideration. And so the second time I really evaluated across the banks and across the different platforms, what was different or what was strong or weak about each one and then deciding to make the choice.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:27] Where do you feel like so you mean specifically like certain groups or really strong or certain products or
LouiseBouge: [00:09:32] Really strong products? The groups everything because it's like the whole job itself is very episodic. So it sort of depends on like where the like the peaks of the waves are and you definitely want to be at the group. That's strongest in a particular thing that particular bank does, because that's where you'll see the bulk of the deal flow.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:55] Would you say, given what you know now, would you have taken one of the smaller bank offers if it was a stronger group or would you have still gone bulge bracket?
LouiseBouge: [00:10:04] Yeah. In retrospect, I would have taken another opportunity if I was going to end up in be anyways. I think maybe one of the other opportunities may have helped me realize my career path.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:17] Do you mind sharing what that bank was? You didn't go.
LouiseBouge: [00:10:20] I prefer not to say anything.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:22] Ok, so you're so you're basically you had an offer at a smaller bank, but you felt like it was a product group or like, you know, maybe M&A or something like that that was would have given you kind of a wider breadth versus going into a bulge bracket where you the training, I assume, was very good, but the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:39] Day to day work was a little bit more narrow. Yeah. So that's one area. Ok, that's fair. And so did you feel like so group strength matters? I agree. A hundred percent and where you're specifically where the bank specifically focus is in the number of deals they do matter. So were you doing a lot of pitches during your two years or did you feel like you got enough live deal experience?
LouiseBouge: [00:11:03] I did a lot of. Pictures and then the deal work that I did, it was a lot of more capital markets activities than M&A, and that's sort of what I mean, because if you do want a transition to PE, it's crucial to have that M&A experience, have an understanding of the process, have understanding of like what are the key issues. And that is sort of the experience that I wanted but didn't get in my first two years.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:30] So when did you realize that's what you wanted?
LouiseBouge: [00:11:34] Probably a year
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:37] In. Like why? Like, we were just like, Well, that's more interesting. Or what was about M&A that kind of attracted you versus what you were doing? Or you just felt you had done enough of the capital markets work?
LouiseBouge: [00:11:48] Well, so like on paper, I think the jobs are very similar, but in actuality, if you think about the significance is very different through M&A, you get to understand the businesses more, you get to understand the operations more, whereas the capital markets activity the like, you don't really need to understand what a business does to be able to issue a bond.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:10] Got it. Well, I mean, in cap markets, so tell me the type of stuff you were doing, what you're looking at like, I guess you're looking more like the credit worthiness of them and stuff like that and just cash flows.
LouiseBouge: [00:12:19] Yeah, exactly. And then when you're looking at the financial profile of the company, you're looking at the revenue that you've been, you're not really thinking about what's contributing to it. Why is there a huge job? Are they actually on boarding clients correctly or are they firing customers that are not good for the company? There's just a lot of like the business intuition that you don't get in a role that's purely focus away from M&A,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:47] Whereas M&A, you're saying they would do kind of more detailed revenue buildups, more analysis of the actual operations? yeah, exactly. yeah, I don't disagree with that. Ok, so that's fair. So you're kind of going through your two years at the end of year one, you're thinking, you know, it'd be great if I could get some M&A experience. Did you try to transition internally?
LouiseBouge: [00:13:06] I didn't. Then I'd also always wanted to go to grad school. I went to a very sort of finance focused undergrad. And so for me, going back, getting the JDAM base, sort of stepping back, going into the humanities and sort of like learning something different and in life, it's sort of like the last chance that I get to do something like that. So I treasure that experience. And then if you with law schools, a lot of students go straight through from undergrad. So having been two years out, I was already on the older side, so I had to control for both time and experience. so I decided to go back to grad school.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:45] First was there. So you felt a little bit of a rush to get the JD because people go straight from undergrad.
LouiseBouge: [00:13:51] Yeah, I think you're more disadvantaged with admissions, with with admissions, the older you get.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:59] I didn't realize that existed. Is that like a true thing? Like, that's a known thing? Yeah.
LouiseBouge: [00:14:06] I mean, it's not that right. It's like they're trying to build a cohesive class. And it's the same with all the analysts and the associate classes. They don't usually want someone who's too old for the role because then you're not being, you're not going to integrate as
Well. You're not going to have that sort of experience where you have both the network and the learning aspect. And so there's just a lot of configuration from there as well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:26] Got it. So like your window is closing for the JD, you always want what made you attracted to the JD MBA?
LouiseBouge: [00:14:33] I think is also so first, when I was an at an analyst, I did look at a couple distressed companies and I just thought a lot the experience was a lot more bespoke. The analysis was a lot more. But a lot more bespoke and very interesting. And a lot of what the work that we had done brought in the legal teams and having to understand the credit orgs and having to understand the protections, the covenants. And that appealed to me. And then also, as I said in the beginning, like I've always wanted to go to law school. I think it's a beautiful part of society and you get to learn about what transpired in history, but through a very specific lens that I think is very interesting. that is interesting. I mean, have you did you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:17] Ever consider going into restructuring because I worked in restructuring for a couple of years at Rothschild, so it's funny you bring up the legal distressed side. So I immediately.
LouiseBouge: [00:15:26] No, no, I definitely have. I think with my associate recruiting process, the two firms that I got really far with was one, a restructuring firm and then two, Goldman and I ended up going with gold man. But had I gone down the other out, I think my career would be very, very different than now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:45] Do you feel like you may have been? You might have stayed in banking longer because you did. You went post MBA, JD, MBA, you went Goldman and you did that for a few years, correct? Yes, for two years. so did you feel like? the search out, and we'll get to the private equity recruiting process coming from a post MBA with no pre MBA experience, but did you feel like if you had gone restructuring, you might have stayed there? Or do you feel like there was always that part of you like that was drawing you to the buy side to be an investor?
LouiseBouge: [00:16:22] I. I don't actually know I didn't go into banking as an associate the second time to get into it either. And I think restructuring is probably a totally different experience than pure M&A or the other non restructuring banking rules allow for. I can't say, but all I can say is just given how specific it is, the way that I work, the way that I learned, the things that I learned and then the conclusions that I draw from that would be different and take me to a different place than where I am now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:59] Cool. Yeah, no, I'd say the engagements are much longer. So you so OK. So you're coming out of school, you're thinking, OK, I'm going to. Now, was there any a thought process of, hey, I'm going to go work in law?
LouiseBouge: [00:17:15] Oh, so. Maybe in my first year, but I think as the curriculum went on, I realized from a career perspective, that's definitely not something that I am interested in. And then my first year, my first summer, so the first year you can't recruit for anything on the business school side, so you have to recruit on the school side. And so I did a summer at a corporate law firm, which is also sort of, oh, that's cool.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:42] Tell me the difference. Corporate law versus bulge bracket investment banking go like it's just night and day. The work that you do is so different. The skills that you use are different. The environments of the jobs are not the same. So for example, even as a summer, I got an office to myself, and so any time I had a question, I'd like have to walk around the other side of the floor or peek into the office of the associate that I worked with and ask what I needed
LouiseBouge: [00:18:11] To ask was in banking. You just kind of like scream across the desk and you're like, Hey, I don't understand this. Please explain. It's a more formal environment. It's definitely like you're stuck in the office. You write your briefs. It's like It's isolating.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:29] You say it's more isolating.
LouiseBouge: [00:18:31] Oh, for sure. And all the work that you do is at a slower pace. And I wanted something that was very quick. I get to learn like I get to learn every single day. I get to learn on an open floor where people scream things and just by osmosis, you learn interesting.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:46] So you felt like it was a little bit too slow for you. You were. You were kind of a little more isolated, kind of, I guess for people who don't enjoy that, get distracted easily, it actually might be attractive because it can kind of focus and do their work. And it's not like frantic, frenetic pace all the time. Although I think corporate lawyers can work pretty long hours and the lifestyle can be pretty brutal from what I've heard and what I've seen.
LouiseBouge: [00:19:11] But it's long, but it's not fast because there are times you're on a transaction and you have to get something out in an hour and it's nearly impossible, but you do it, and that sort of gives me a rush. And on the law side, you never have anything like that. It's like, Oh, you have a lot of work, you have this amount of time to do it. You pace yourself like just that excitement from day to day. Fair. Ok.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:34] So you're basically you do that corporate law internship. You say this is not for me, so you immediately go back to banking. Was there any other consideration in terms of like other careers, anything like that?
LouiseBouge: [00:19:47] I consider consulting for a little bit went through all of the interview prep thought about it. and then just I think the sort of analysis that you do is not the hard, concrete technical skills that I like. And so I ended up not going down that route, but it was a very quick consideration. I may have entertained it for maybe a month and then decided it wasn't the route.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:08] Was it the brutal case interview prep that dissuaded you from going?
LouiseBouge: [00:20:13] It's a very different way of thinking, right? It's very theoretical. It's very spatial, it's very holistic. and I like that in finance. There is that like there's like the hard like. Like the numbers are the this is a conclusion that you can draw, whereas with consulting, I think it's a lot more like it's a nebulous thought process and it appealed to me a lot.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:37] You don't feel like there's an art to valuation in banking.
LouiseBouge: [00:20:41] There is right, but the art is built on the science. True. Fair.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:46] Ok, so you're going through this whole process. You're kind of coming to the conclusion that banking is going to be so you start recruiting. And tell me a little bit about that process. So was it I assume it was pretty easy. You had the pre MBA. I mean, were they kind of drilling you? Why? Why did you go get a J.D. where they kind of curious? I assume they also pushed a little bit on the interviews for that.
LouiseBouge: [00:21:06] I think it's like there were 50 percent curious and 50 percent impressed. So depending on what levers I wanted to pull, where I wanted to steer the conversation more to. So it wasn't difficult from that perspective. I thought it was also easier and that because I had more of an understanding of what the landscape was at that point, the sort of the differentiation between all the different things. It made it more of a seamless process. So the second time around, I didn't apply to every single bank. I did the boutiques and then I did the brackets that weren't folks focus on the lending arm. So it's just more of a niche process that I went through, and I think that made it more more purposeful and allowed me to know where I wanted to end up. And.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:56] That makes sense. Did you did you feel like you were able to come across more genuine in the interviews because you actually like you understood landscape better, you said, So what? How did you learn about that just through like talking with peers and understanding kind of what banks or we're good at different things?
LouiseBouge: [00:22:12] Or how would you say? Well, I think because during my analyst years, the worked in interest me that much. I spent a lot of the time trying to meet people in the different groups sort of understand how the bank is structured as a whole, right? So not only the products and the industries that that my bank had, but also what banking book is, what trading book is, what the market risk team does. And so that gives you a basic understanding of how one bank works. And then when you talk to people from other banks, it sort of builds upon what you already know. And because of that, you're able to draw a diagram in your head like, OK, this is what I like about this bank. This is what they do, what they do and what they don't do. Well, this is a team that actually does the models. And so once you parse that out, I think it becomes an easy choice of where you want to end up the second time around.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:02] And so tell me, what about Goldman specifically attracted you besides the incredible name, obviously, and brand of Goldman was. Was it the way the structure was set up specifically?
LouiseBouge: [00:23:14] So there were a couple of things I love that the M&A was embedded in the industry group, so once a deal came in, the technical work didn't get outsourced to another team to. I like that they're generally strong across the board, so you get to work on a lot of products as an associate and that that was also true to my experience. In my two years. I worked on restructuring, I worked on IPOs. I worked on full follow on bond issuances, M&A from buy side, sell side and then from by side, both from a strategic and sponsor perspective and just being able to see the wide range of things out there. And then thirdly, I was very impressed by their recruiting process, how seamlessly it was done, how they have a team and everyone has a job and how everyone executes its on point. They don't miss any appointments. They know as much about you as you know about them. And that was an indication to me that, OK, like it's not just all brand name, there's the substance that warrants the brand name, and that's where that's somewhere where I want to work.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:14] Got it. So you were impressed with how they presented themselves, and that left a good impression. But you also loved the fact that you were getting attached. A lot of different things. They were strong across a lot of different products. And more importantly, there wasn't the technical piece wasn't outsourced to like an ad team. Yeah, great. So do you feel like? Your years there. Was it to live up to kind of your expectations or was there any surprises? Things you enjoyed, more things you enjoyed less about it. I mean, it was different because you were an associate, right? So it's a little bit more stressful because you're managing and still delivering work product, right?
LouiseBouge: [00:24:49] Yeah, no, that's you. I think you hit the nail on its head. I think I had an incredible two years there. I worked a lot. I didn't sleep at all. But definitely worth all the time. I got to work on products across the board. I got to understand. So I've always been in sort of the TMT world, and so I was able to drill down and understand the different spaces within TMT. And then from a managerial standpoint, because I was an associate is the first time that I had to work with someone below me. So I think a lot of my first year was understanding how to manage up and down. Yeah. So it's hard. That's a really yeah, right? No, it's so that caught me off guard because I was like as an analyst, I did everything. I was super responsible and then having to learn it from the associate standpoint and sort of understand if they don't do this, where they coming from and why and how do I fix it? And I ended up, I thought it was super rewarding. I ended my two years and walked away with the analysts, like having great relationships with them, and that's something that I really enjoy.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:03] That's impressive. I think a lot of associates well, I think you had the advantage of having done banking before. I think where a lot of associates struggle are the ones that come in, maybe from consulting or corporate finance or corporate strategy. Get the MBA, then go do banking. You kind of knew the ropes at least a little bit in terms of how the speed, right?
LouiseBouge: [00:26:22] Yeah, exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:24] So you're ready so that that helped you kind of probably gain some respect in the analyst size. So, OK, so you're working really hard. You're working long hours, but you're enjoying it. When did private equity kind of come into the picture? Was it a recruiter that reached out? Was it a mentor that said, Hey, you know, you should really look into this thing because I know it's again almost impossible to do the transition you did. It's incredibly rare. I know there's a ton of people at. I think at Wharton, 50 percent of the class is in the Private Equity and Venture Capital Group, and only about, you know, 10 to 20 percent of them have actual private equity experience. So you're competing against a pool of people who already have that experience. How are you? How did you go about their recruiting and how did he even come about?
LouiseBouge: [00:27:12] So it sort of goes back to why I left my analyst role and then why I started my associate role and the fact that I got called. When you get to see everything across the board. And so once you see everything across the board, you know what you like. And so the thing that I enjoyed most was M&A, and I worked on M&A from the sell side perspective, from the buy side perspective for both sponsors and strategic. And then I realized I understood I like the buy side more. I like it, particularly for the strategic that don't that need more of the advisory capacity that a bank has to offer them. And so my thought process is, if I like this the most, why don't I do it as a full time role
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:54] To explain that, like, what do you mean, the advisory process like you like the part, the buy side M&A where you were coming in as a bank and giving more like specific advice in terms of like what to what targets to go after
LouiseBouge: [00:28:09] You're like once they're in negotiation with the top target, you're thinking about the valuation and you're helping them with the due diligence. Whereas if you're working for a sponsor, they already know what they want to do right there, just seeing a bank to sort of find the target, the targets and then the capital. And so I just found that were the most stimulating and like I thought I would love to, I was the most stimulated. I think it's very thoughtful. And again, it goes. So you get to understand the companies and the operations. There's always a y both behind the numbers. And then only in this role can you dig into what the whys are. And so my thought was, if you enjoyed this so much, then just do it as a full time job.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:55] Ok, so you enjoy it so much to do it as a full time job. There's a big leap there because it's still very hard to break it.
LouiseBouge: [00:29:02] Yeah, yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:03] So tell me what people said to you. Tell me what your first steps were.
LouiseBouge: [00:29:09] So I reached out to all of the records, the recruiters across the board. And when I say all, I really mean all. I reached out to friends who have gone through the process. Everyone they spoke to large and small firms, firms with specific folks. Officers, and I think that's probably the first part with recruiters or sort of a gatekeeper to what their jobs actually are. and sometimes I would argue it's harder to impress them than it is to impress an actual interview viewer. And then I've also done the sporadic like you meet your friends and the colleagues through them and they put you in touch. But that's a harder step to take because usually people will have a conversation with you. But if there's no head count on their team to bring anyone on, then like The Conversation's educational. But it's sort of not helpful for your transition process.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:06] So like you were doing some networking and like for through friends, but you weren't like aggressively hitting up LinkedIn and trying to talk to associates at funds? Or were you doing that stuff to?
LouiseBouge: [00:30:16] I did that as well. But again, I think the sort of ad hoc thing is like, like a lot of them told me, Look, you're impressive. We'd love to have you or at least give you an interview. But we've hired all the associates that we need, like 18 months ago. So there's no more room for an additional associate on the team. So I mean, it was helpful in that they'll tell me what their day to day is like, and I understand more about the role which I can use for the interviews. But in terms of actually trying to transition that or like, convert that into to an offer, It wasn't that helpful.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:53] So what was the break?
LouiseBouge: [00:30:55] I just stayed in touch with the recruiters. Actually, I think some of them believed in my story. And so it was fortunate that a couple of them did give me a couple of opportunities. But like, you know, it was a really hard process. I did have one recruiter told me, Look, if you don't know what you want to do by the time you're 18, it's too late. And I was just like, OK, I mean, I guess I didn't know, and I guess it's late. And then even the interviews were very difficult. I think I bifurcate that into two stages the first couple of interviews, which just for me to get my head around what people like to hear, sort of like get in the flow of what the behavior are and then understanding what they're looking for in the case studies. And then once I got through the first, I want to say three or four, then I think I really began to hit my stride and understand what they want, what I should say, what helps me stand out and then convert that into to an offer.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:00] I want to dig into that a little bit more. So it sounds like you had several. It sounds like three or four processes that the recruiters did help you get into because they were buying your story of lie and or the M&A process. I want to be on the buy side, blah blah. So they actually gave you the shot now. were these four pre MBA associate roles? How did you kind of market yourself?
LouiseBouge: [00:32:20] So I said I was totally open to pre MBA associate roles. I think if you're an MBA, you're trying to make that transition. that's the only thing you can do.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:31] So you're open to a big pay cut. yeah, exactly.
LouiseBouge: [00:32:34] And taking a couple of years back,
I mean, I think when you're trying to make that hard a training session, you just don't get to choose.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:45] Yeah, you have to just be willing to. But I think the hard part is, you're saying even saying you're willing to take the pay cut. I bet you a lot of the recruiters are like, Yeah, right, OK, whatever. Like, none of the buy side firms are going to want to look at you because you're just so non traditional because like, they don't want to bring somebody in who's been managing people. And then all of a sudden you have to do all the models and all the due diligence work and. Right? I guess that's the biggest hurdle to climb is convincing people that you really are open to it.
LouiseBouge: [00:33:09] Yep, exactly. And then at the time, I actually really meant it. But then also having been in this role again, in retrospect, I really appreciate that I was able to start as a senior associate. Ok, that's
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:23] Good. So you're so you're kind of going through this. You said the first few times it was really tough to know really what they wanted to hear. So you had like case interviews. Were they asking a lot about the deals you had worked on, I assume, and drilling down on those?
LouiseBouge: [00:33:36] I think that part is it that hard. It's the cases because in banking, you're not taught to think about things that deeply and you don't know what questions that can come up. So you're preparing for the best you can with the knowledge that that you have, but you're not anticipating the Q&A. They'll come at you and it will take you a couple of times to get that under your belt and understand what you did wrong the first time and when you need to address the second time and sort of like build that whole holistic framework. And I think that came to me after about the third or the fourth opportunity.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:09] And was this like cases that they just had like on site?
LouiseBouge: [00:34:13] Yes. Like you'll have to build a model on site and then they'll be an MD who sits down with you and ask why you make that assumption or why you make that? And did you consider them? Did you consider this? And I think it's like. Unless you've been in a buy side role in a cell site capacity, you probably think about that to maybe 40 percent of what a buy side rule needs. So I was only able to offer that and had to really step it up for the interviews.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:40] What do you think? It was something along the lines of like considering returns like, can you be more specific about what like level? So like the first level you like would could do an elbow model. You get to an IRR and multiple invested capital, you spit out the answer and then what? And then they kind of are drilling down more specifically on like the strategic
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:01] Fundamentals of an industry. What was the surprising part, I guess, in the first version? yeah. Do you remember?
LouiseBouge: [00:35:07] It definitely wasn't the numbers, right? Because like, the numbers are very like road. And once you do a couple and you understand how an LBO is built, you have everything down pat. It was more so like thinking about, ok, the industry that the company is in. What are the pros? What are the cons? What is the competitive advantage with the customers, with the suppliers? Like what is sort of like the strength of the company? Is this stable? Is it something that ramps up very quickly? would you put an earn out if you were to buy this firm? And then I think previously I had thought about it as like, OK, this is what I liked about a company. and then this Is what I did like, and this is what I dig into. whereas once I've done a couple of them, I realized I had to bite, bifurcate it into, like the pros and cons of each of the categories that had to go through. And then I also had to consider things like, OK, what is the process like? Is this something that a lot of people would bid for? and then sort of having a very cursory understanding of the different profiles of the funds out there? who would be your competitors in trying to buy the asset as well to be able to give a case study that really stood out?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:14] That's interesting. That's great. So I guess in terms of anything else before we call it, so you obviously made the transition successfully, you started kind of hitting your stride. Is there anything else? Looking back, you would have done differently, like, do you regret doing the jade at all or you're like, happy, you went through that academic exercise, as you said, Scholastic?
LouiseBouge: [00:36:36] No, I think I've loved every part of my career. One thing I would say is I had a really hard time. one of the most interesting experiences I had is I interviewed for this firm, and at the Super Day, one of the partners he saw that I had my engagement ring on, and then he had asked me, OK, so when do you plan on having kids? And I was just astounded. I didn't know what to say. It was just, yeah, it was like, you're going to get questions like that. And even if you don't, it's on people's minds. So this is something that you take into consideration. and one of my like and I think after that interview, I ended up with the offer decided to decline it. And the and I think at that point, I went through a lot of doubt of why should I pursue this at all? This is on everyone's minds. I'm never going to get the opportunity. And then I talked to my mentor at work. I talked to one of the recruiters who eventually became a mentor, and they were just saying, If you can get through all the case studies and get to the end where they give you an offer, then you're pretty much set from a skill set perspective. It's just if you meet the right, if the right opportunity comes along. And so if that's the case, then you should just keep on trying until you hit it back.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:55] If you if that partner had not made that comment, which is incredibly inappropriate, would you have taken that offer?
LouiseBouge: [00:38:03] I mean, there was also a lot of considerations because it was across the country and then in the pay cut was large and I would be starting as a junior associate. But I think it was that comment that put it over the edge, and it was not so much that he made it, but it's like he made it out loud. So it must be on everyone's minds. And so if it is, we'll be able to make the transition at other firms.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:26] Yeah. And I think you're the recruiter that ended up being your mentors, right? If you can get one offer, you can get others. Yeah. Yes, exactly that. Actually, especially now that the recruiter knows you got an offer, you can be sure that she, he or she is going to put you in front of. Any other similar opportunities, right, so you proved yourself as a candidate, so I think, well, kudos to you, four for turning it down after all that work and then you and you kept going. So how long after you turn that down? Did you end up with the offer?
LouiseBouge: [00:38:58] I must have turned it down around April and then got an offer around the end of July, so it was a good three months.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:07] Yes, it wasn't immediate, right? Yeah. So well, good for you.
LouiseBouge: [00:39:10] It was a hard time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:13] So tell me a little bit of it. So anything else before we call it like you, any recommendations you'd give? To other younger listeners out there that are either want to follow in your footsteps or advice you'd give to your younger self.
LouiseBouge: [00:39:26] It would just be on that last point. I mean, there's a practical thought that you have to constantly evaluate yourself can you or your competitor enough to make the transition? And so there is a constant like, how do you rank your class? Do people think of you as a technical associate? And so that's sort of the reality that sets in. but at the same time, you do have to have that drive. You do have to have that. Like, I know, the whole world is against me, but I'm just going to like, go through the motions, take the interview to a good job on it and see where it goes. And I've never been in a point in my life where I really needed to have that faith, and I think it was the first time. And so for a post MBA associate, if you're looking to make the transition, you really have to believe in yourself as corny as that sounds.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:09] No, that's true. I mean, if you don't believe it, forget it. You're done.
LouiseBouge: [00:40:13] Yeah, exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:15] You have to believe in yourself. You're no one else is going to fight for you. So, yeah, well, Louis Bouygues, or however you say your username. Thank you for taking the time to chat with us today.
LouiseBouge: [00:40:26] Thank you so much.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:27] And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis dot com. And till next time.
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