WSO Podcast | E76: Prop Trading Burnout in 2008 to IB Bulge Bracket and Corp Dev M&A Executive
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In this episode, member @jKim219 shares his story graduating during the financial crisis in 2008. Hear about what is was like to work at a prop trading shop that requires you to put up your own money, what he did when he burned out and quit and finally how he turned it all around.
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WSO Podcast (Episode 76) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis. Your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, member JjKim2019 shares his story graduating during the financial crisis in two thousand eight. Hear about what it was like to work at a prop trading shop that requires you to put up your own money. What he did when he burned out and quit, and finally, how he turned it all around. Enjoy. You, Neal, three, one five, thanks for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
JKim219: [00:00:55] Thanks for inviting me. Glad to be here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:57] So it'd be great if you could give just everybody a quick summary of your background.
JKim219: [00:01:01] Yeah, sure. So currently, I work in one of Fortune 100 major U.S. company is a corporate development team, work on M&A and other inorganic investment opportunities, and assess their strategic fit and also do valuation and due diligence work to make sure that we execute them. We identify good targets and execute them in in good manner. So previously, I worked in investment banking and bulge bracket bank and also as a few investment banks major mainly covering industrials world. We also have some experience in energy sector as well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:45] Very cool. And so you graduated a really tough time during the financial crisis, right? Talk to me a little bit about that and what it was like recruiting. Did you have like the typical summer analyst internships coming out of school?
JKim219: [00:01:59] I didn't. I didn't. And I regret to say that I wasn't 100 percent sure what I wanted to do at that time. And really, if I look back, I should have been more diligent in recruiting and making more networks. I mean, I'm happy where I got to right now, but I certainly could have been easier if I had to follow the right steps at that point. You know, having said that, you know, you mentioned, you know, experience graduating in a financial crisis era definitely was, you know, tough time. You know, I remember, you know, it sounds like history lesson now, but give me a member. Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns were two major recruiters at my college. And I remember reading a newspaper. I actually interned right across Union Brothers my junior year. And I remember one day everyone's talking about, Hey. The Lehman Brothers of bankrupt, literally just out of nowhere, yeah. And you know, and from that point on, I guess I guess people kind of predict it in some sense because they stop coming to our school and, you know, obviously for graduating students. That was tough because, you know, you lost major to investment banks you could have gotten to. And I remember even
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:37] Banking wasn't even on your radar then,
JKim219: [00:03:39] Right? Yeah, I mean, right. I mean, I still wasn't sure if I wanted the banking at that time. But, you know, I mean, I still studied business. So I, you know, I know a lot of my friends and, you know, friends back then, even like top students was having, we're having a tough time getting into major banks. Hmm. I don't know what it's like. I'm sure it's pretty tough, you know, these days as well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:07] But looking at your background, it looks like, you know, right after you graduated. Did you do? Were you living at home? What was the struggle like, like to get a job or like, what did you? Because I know a lot of people, just even from top school. Yeah, it was super. Almost impossible.
JKim219: [00:04:23] Yeah. Right. I mean, so I ended up joining, you know, the prop trading shop right after I graduated. It wasn't necessarily what I wanted to do, but I just couldn't stay on an employee right after my school years. And you know, with this, with
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:46] This one of these prop shops that is like, you have to put up your own money and it's like one of those one of the places where they back you. But then a lot of people just flame out.
JKim219: [00:04:56] Exactly. I mean, you know, I guess. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:00] How much do you have to put up and tell me like what the setup was because I'm always curious about what it's like in the inside of these programs?
JKim219: [00:05:07] Sure. I mean, the take
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:08] Advantage of a lot of kids.
JKim219: [00:05:09] Really? Yeah, exactly. Really not a good memory. I was there for a little over a year, you know, probably put up a few friends. Mm hmm. You know, if I think about it now, it's not much. But back then, you know, being a broke college grad, recent college graduate, it was. It was a lot of money for me. But I feel like I had to at least do something at the time. Yeah. And I, you know, kind of thought of it as, you know, listen fees to learn something.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:43] Ok, that's fair. So you're like, maybe this trading thing might be for me. I'm going to just go to this prop shop. It works out. Maybe you could actually do pretty well if you trade, if you.
JKim219: [00:05:52] Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:55] What were you trading specific types of securities tell me about? Like, did they give you any guidance or trading or they just kind of threw you to the wolves and gave you like a Bloomberg terminal? How what was that like?
JKim219: [00:06:04] Yeah. So yeah, so you're right that, you know, top traders, even in these small prop shops, they do make good money and they survive. But it just that I what I my experience and what I learned from there was that, you know, a lot of lot of trading skill set. I feel like it's kind of in nature. You know what I mean, rather than something, you can pick it up and learn from it, you know, learn with it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you do need that instinct and natural skill set. You can really study. And you know, and I guess that I found out that really wasn't my natural skill set I possess.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:56] So tell me about. Did you quickly lose the $2000 did you like, tell me like, you're anonymous. So that's the good part is you can kind of tell me all the gory details and not right. But yeah, it was. It was. You don't have to tell me the firm or the company name, but like you walk in day one, they're like, Do you write a check? Tell me the whole experience of like going into a prop shop because I don't think we've had it a guess. Like, be honest about that or tell us about that.
JKim219: [00:07:23] Yeah. So you know, you know, you need to write a check. You know, once you join, you know, that's pretty much a precondition to join the company. And the from day one, the mentor, you sort of say, Well, really, if I think about it, you know, it's really not much you can learn because nothing is really structure. And but, you know, I guess you start from small money and I think you kind of do virtual trading for about a month or so. And when your manager thinks you're ready to. Real money, then you know, you start treating with
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:11] So that that month. So you write the check up, let's say, was it two thousand five thousand?
JKim219: [00:08:16] Yeah, around the around the ballpark.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:18] Ok, so a couple of thousand you write a check, they give you a seat in their office and basically they're like a couple of screens. And you're right, you're looking at what types of markets like the equity market bonds.
JKim219: [00:08:29] So for me, you know, I was focusing on equity and equities. Yeah. But I know that there are other prop shops who focus on things such products such as options.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:42] And was it small cap like certain industries or were just anywhere,
JKim219: [00:08:47] Anywhere public, you know, anything, publicly trading stocks?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:51] And so they were like, basically, just see if you can trade virtually profitably, do whatever you want, basically do whatever you want. And I mean, was there a mentor like that you watched for a while to try what they were doing?
JKim219: [00:09:06] There was, you know, I mean, there was there were a few, actually that, you know, they kind of pair you with and they expect you to learn from them. But I think what I realized was that there really isn't much to learn. So tell me
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:26] Why, like were the people they paired you with? Not that successful? Or were these sorry, I'm just moving this light here. It's a little corner where they. Were they not that successful or was it that you couldn't replicate what they were doing because it was so just all over the place?
JKim219: [00:09:44] Probably more ladder. I mean, there were there were some successful traders. I mean, if you could survive in an environment for over 12 months, you know, you're going to be successful. You know, most of the people would drop out within 12 months. Got it. And you know, and what? I you know what I realize. You know, sitting next to these successful traders were. I mean, they just have different mentality that I can replicate oftentimes. And, you know, if you
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:17] Like a gambler personality like
JKim219: [00:10:20] They like, you know, kind of I mean, they're not nervous. Yeah, they're not nervous, you know, they're not afraid of losing money and gaining money. And you know, it's easy to put that on paper like you need to treat a certain way. I mean, I try to mimic every strategy they laid out to us. But you know, it's the timing is such a big part of it. And you know, there's certain things they just can describe, you know?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:55] Do you think it's all a rude? Do you think it's all? Do you think it's? Some of these people that have been there for several years, they truly had some just the trader mentality and they had. Do you feel like that's continued or have you heard of any these people? Have you stayed in touch with any of them that were there?
JKim219: [00:11:14] I did. I have close touch with a few friends I had made there. And did they
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:20] Did any of them stay in or stay?
JKim219: [00:11:21] No, no. I mean, you know, if I remember all those who are successful and survive their environment pretty much was all same type of people. Like what? What were they like? Yeah, very aggressive. You know, not afraid to express their emotions. And you know. I mean, not in a bad way. You know, I really have great respect for them because that's something I can't do.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:55] So were they like screaming at the screen like, oh yeah, like that kind of emotion expressed like
JKim219: [00:12:01] They there were there was like this, you know, corner of the room was a pile of keyboards, people who just smashed, you know? I mean, yeah, it was, you know, every single second you hear f bombs dropped here and there. And you know, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if there were like a, you know, graveyard for smash monitors in somewhere in the back of the room. But yeah, it was, you know? That's what the type of environment was. And I just figured this. That's just not me. I mean, I tried it out because I couldn't find anything. You know, after graduation, not to blame the market.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:50] I totally get it. Like, you figured I might as well do this. That's something rather than nothing. And I commend you for taking a swing question. Like, So you said you still keep in touch with those people they all left. Are any of them traders still? No, no. What are they? What are they doing like out of the couple of people, you say?
JKim219: [00:13:09] Yeah, I mean, the guy, you know? Those close to it, he's pretty much, you know. Employee of major corporate. I think he does like a sales and marketing stuff. Ok. Some of them went to do finance like I do right now, OK, like Corp Debt
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:34] Corp dev type stuff and
JKim219: [00:13:36] Yeah, investment related, I think that's for sure.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:39] But cool. So you that's kind of how you took your swing. You basically. Figure quickly out like you lost, you lost the money, whatever they said, Oh, it's not for you, you what? What did that feel like when you walked out of that office for the first time was a devastating? Or did you like who you just relieved to get out of that?
JKim219: [00:14:03] Yeah, but mix of both, I would say. Mm hmm. And you know,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:08] What are you? What about your parents? What were they saying during all this?
JKim219: [00:14:11] Oh, they. Yeah, what I actually think about it, what I appreciate still is they kind of remain silent. Even though they saw me struggle, struggle as you know,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:27] You think that was good because they kind of let you fall because it to be.
JKim219: [00:14:31] I think so. I think so. I, you know, I mean, my parents are very strict and very involved in my life back then. But you know, to my surprise, you know, they remain silent, even though when they found out that. I quit the job and, you know, I'm searching for another opportunity. Got it.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:54] Now when you lose your money at a prop shop like this? Are you forced to put up more of your own cash if you want to continue? How does that work? But you just did you just quit because you just didn't want to do it anymore?
JKim219: [00:15:06] Yeah, I mean, I could have put a moment more money if I wanted to stay right. But you know, they don't want to do it anymore.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:13] Ok, fair. So then you kind of had to regroup, right? It was kind of a very tough start to a career. Is that fair? Is that fair? So then you had to regroup. How did you get your footing? What was the first kind of job where you felt like, OK, I could see myself doing this, or at least this is a chance.
JKim219: [00:15:29] So, you know, I realize. Yeah, so I realize what I want to do, and my skill set is really geared toward. You know, analytics, and so I wanted to do. I mean, I was still very interested in the field of finance economics. Mm hmm. So I figured, you know, I want it to be the, you know, analyst. And, you know, so I started applying here and there. And, you know, I fortunately picked up by one of the, you know. Boutique investment banks in New York really, you know, small shop, very regional.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:18] And you're there for a couple of years.
JKim219: [00:16:20] Yes, I was there, I was in their analyst program, pretty much. Yeah, well, I really focused on transportation industry specifically.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:29] And it was a pretty small bank, folks. And you basically did you or the what were the hours like? Was it like super long, like a typical analyst program, like 80 hundred hour weeks? Or was it a little more reasonable and boutiques can go either way, they can skew either way.
JKim219: [00:16:44] Yeah, I mean it. It's swings, right? Yeah. I mean, I remember some of the days I had to stay there until 2:00 or 3:00 a.m.. Some of the days I could have just, you know, work from home and farm only because there's nothing going on.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:03] Do you remember how you actually got that initial boutique investment banking job because it was still a bad time for the economy? It was, yeah. How did you get? How did you land that after, you know, being basically having that one? Um, horrific experience at the prop shop, and then how did you actually leverage it, where you networking? What were you doing?
JKim219: [00:17:23] I got really lucky, I mean, I applied everywhere, you know, anywhere online, and you know, the, you know, this was small shop and they there were need of someone urgent because someone one of their small shop, you know, one of the analysts in their left. So they really, really needed to. So, you know, I have to say it wasn't as high paying as you know, you know, major investment banks. Mm hmm.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:56] And that's the
JKim219: [00:17:57] The job now. Exactly.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:59] This job in 2010, it was a job in banking. I don't care what they paid you. I mean, even if it's 50 thousand base, forty thousand base doesn't matter. It's like,
JKim219: [00:18:08] Yeah, yeah, exactly. That was my mentality back then. I need to start somewhere. Yeah. And you know, so probably, you know, I I'm assuming there were many candidates who are excited to accept a paycheck, but I was. And so they, you know, we, you know, I started working there.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:30] So how do you even get the how did you even get the interview? It was through an online application which
JKim219: [00:18:34] Is all on an application. They just call me and put me, you know, ask me to, you know, you know, they set up on, you know, on site interview in New York. So I met a few of the managers there. And to my surprise, you know, they they wanted to be they want me to join.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:51] So that's interesting to me. Do you think it was? Because is because almost like you did it push back on the on the low comp, the low comp.? Yeah, I
JKim219: [00:19:02] Mean, I guess
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:03] I mean, wow. I know it's I know it's a long time ago, but there's some really interesting insight to me there about you like being willing to just really just eat shit for a couple of years, right? And like, you know, them being like cheap labour motivated, right is what we need. So tell me about how you communicated that.
JKim219: [00:19:22] Yeah. So I guess, you know, I mean, it was lucky in my part to even get a chance, you know, of the interview because, you know, that doesn't happen often if you just apply online, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:37] That is lucky.
JKim219: [00:19:37] Yeah, yeah. But when I got the opportunity, I, you know. Being a desperate, you know, unemployed person, I really, really try to leverage that opportunity. And you know, and prepare to interview in such a way,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:52] Was that the only interview you had landed in banking or in anything? Or that was only one?
JKim219: [00:19:57] Wow. I mean, I, you know, I interview with a few other corporate jobs.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:03] How long did you have before you knew you were interviewing with them to the actual interview on site interview?
JKim219: [00:20:08] Wow. A week, probably like a week, I would say.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:11] Not much, right? So you're just going crazy that week studying it, like trying to get ready?
JKim219: [00:20:15] Yeah, exactly. I mean, I never went through. I don't even know like, well, just, you know, your platform or, you know, something like, you know, we
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:24] Were around, but we weren't as big 20. Right? Yeah, we were around. I was in business school then, actually. Right? Yeah. I mean, it just released our interview courses. They were all pretty new
JKim219: [00:20:35] And you find you find you. I probably thought
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:38] It would have helped you a lot.
JKim219: [00:20:39] It would. It helped you. I mean, I really didn't have good, you know, good technical background other than my school learning. Right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:48] So did they like did they ask you to walk them through DCF or any of that stuff or they didn't care?
JKim219: [00:20:54] Not, not really. But what I did was I really, really tried to understand their business and the people. I'm going to be with a lot. I mean, this is this is a back when we didn't have LinkedIn.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:07] Ok. So how did you do that? How did you Google it?
JKim219: [00:21:11] You know, you went through the left side searches everything I can possibly, you know, fine and try to understand what they do. And also, I mean, like, I guess my weapon was to try, just try to show them how willing I am and how, you know.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:30] But that's an important point, I think the research everyone should do that that's just the cost of entry, but the fact that you really showed the willingness in almost a little bit of the desperation, right? I think for an employer rather than somebody coming in who's, you know, maybe they come for money or they don't really need the job, it's not as attractive to hire that person because it's like, where's the hair?
JKim219: [00:21:53] No, I mean.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:21:54] So tell me a little bit about like, so you. I think your secret weapon was the fact that you were just willing and very eager, and they probably sense that, right? Did you feel like? So were you surprised and you got the offer?
JKim219: [00:22:11] I remember I was, yes, but not very excited. I mean, awesome. It felt like it was the first real job after graduation.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:20] So that's great, man. Have been an amazing feeling, especially after what you had gone through. So you you're there for a couple of years. Tell me about that next transition and what was the thought process of leaving that first firm and
JKim219: [00:22:35] What you doing another one? Yeah. So being a boutique bank, I realized there's a ceiling. And you know, I wanted to take the next step in moving into, you know, I, you know, I really enjoy the work there. I learned a ton, you know? And I think there's a really good. Perks and being in a small firm where you're responsible for a lot of things, yeah. So, you know, you finally decided that, OK, this is my career path I wanted to do. I want to do more finance and more transactions, but I realize that there are bigger banks and bigger financial institution that I can join. So I, you know, tried searching and searching, but, you know, realized, you know, it's not easy, especially when you're after you graduate.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:37] Yeah, and this is two thousand twelve where at this point we're using LinkedIn yet or other networking?
JKim219: [00:23:43] You know, yeah, it was just, you know, friends of friends. Yeah, something. Yeah, exactly. The online resume drops anyone I found when I connected through work, I sent them email, whether I get the reply or not. And so, you know. I realized. I, you know, need some help that I need to be in some platform where I can rebrand myself, OK? And you know, at that time, I move into my second job, but you know, my mindset still was after moving in there, OK, you know, situation got a little better. You know, the next company I worked for did have a better brand, but still, I wanted to be in more major banks who do major transactions, right? And I realized I need help and I wanted to go to this school.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:24:48] Ok, so why did you choose the school that you chose? Why did you so you realized quickly that you felt you needed rebrand at the bank at this larger bank? You did that, but it wasn't like one of the bulge bracket, really well known banks. So you're thinking maybe business school is the path I need to go in order to in order to get in there. So. And I think that's perfectly logical. So you ended up going to a top business school. Right. Tell me about that whole process, was it a one year program, a two year program and then did you were you did you know right away? Definitely. I want to go invest in banking. I want to do that coming out. Yeah.
JKim219: [00:25:29] So I went to business school overseas. I was probably conceived from my resume. It was still a topic of school. Yeah. But you know, the I mean, number one, the reason I chose to seek opportunities outside of the U.S. was because, you know, I want to always want it to be international. Mm hmm. So the I found it attractive to I mean, as much it was important for your career. But you know, I also wanted to be in the place where I can have a very good experience and meet a lot of people and meet a lot of different people. So that that makes sense to me at the same time. It, you know, probably not always the best way to pick and choose this school. But cost wise, it made more sense than versus top MBAs and in the U.S.. Ok. And you know, and also timing wise, you know, with shorter than, you know, the schools in the U.S. at the time, I just couldn't afford to have another two year grant loan and, you know, spend two years of time unemployed.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:42] Did you have a two hundred thousand dollars of debt from your undergrad?
JKim219: [00:26:45] I know. Luckily, you know, yes, I did have some, but not as much. Ok.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:52] Like one hundred or fifty or something like that.
JKim219: [00:26:54] Yeah, we're on there. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:56] Ok, so you're like, I can't go back to business school and make it a two year vacation like a lot of people and take on a ton of debt. You had been paid not very much as an analyst for two years and then maybe a little bit more at slightly larger bank, but still not you're not bringing in one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, right?
JKim219: [00:27:14] No, I'm not. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:16] And so you're. You go overseas, how do you get how do you actually end up getting back to a bulge bracket in New York?
JKim219: [00:27:24] Yeah, so I mean the intention when I joined. You know, the B-school was, you know, I really didn't care about location on or where I want to work, I mean, got it as long as long as it's a good job and something that I would enjoy. It didn't matter to me, whether it's Asia and Europe or America.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:49] That's great. Opens up a lot of doors.
JKim219: [00:27:51] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you know, I was, you know, so yeah, I mean, I really I really try to stay, you know, open for any opportunities, you know, also investment banking really wasn't that necessarily was my top choice. But I realized from B-school, you know, if I want to get really good experience and go through good training system and learn more, that's probably was my best option. What was
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:19] What was your top choice then going in
JKim219: [00:28:23] Wanting to be in more of an actual investment
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:28] Company? You know, so like hedge fund or
JKim219: [00:28:31] Private equity hedge funds or even like, you know, investment arms of corporate or other institutions?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:28:39] Ok, so then after maybe talking to some of your classmates, you realize banking is probably the first step or a good? Yeah.
JKim219: [00:28:47] Even though I did have banking background, you know, I realize that, you know, there is a benefit of going through medicine banking program in real those markets. And so I mean, I was pretty confident in my technical ability. So yeah, and I thought, OK, so that may be a good segue way before I get, you know, before I go to anywhere else. Right. So, you know, I include investment banking in my opportunity surge. And, you know, I was applying again, applying anywhere, you know, so New York and New York, Hong Kong, London.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:26] So when you're interviewing with New York, you had to explain why you wanted in New York. When you're in London, you would explain why London? Right, right? It can make it. It can make it challenging.
JKim219: [00:29:36] Right? I mean, yes, but luckily, you know what? The New York recruitment, if you, you know, if you learn. If you understand, like a time use of these recruiting cycles. Yeah, U.S.. Often is always a first. Ok? And London and Hong Kong, they kind of come, you know, later. Ok. So by the time I was getting into London or Hong Kong recruiting cycle, I already had an offer from New York. Got it. So, you know, that kind of took care of everything, everyone was jealous that are waiting for a job
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:17] And you had a job and that was it. And so you knew, Hey, this is where I'm going for my
JKim219: [00:30:21] Summer, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:24] Did you have a summer associate? I did. Ok. You did that. And was it something where you did some research and started right away full time after you had?
JKim219: [00:30:34] Yes, because my, you know, I mean, obviously, I joined, you know, the next cycle.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:41] Plus, you had some time off.
JKim219: [00:30:44] Yes, so. So, yes, I did a summer after my first year high school, and I joined full time the next year, but I joined little earlier than my peers because my school being in outside of U.S. and a little earlier. Ok. Yeah. So I think my colleagues joined, probably like August or September. Why I joined like it was March or February, maybe.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:12] So you had officially had the rebrand from a strong international business school. You now have officially the rebrand of a strong bulge bracket bank and you? Kind of we're going in expecting it to be similar to your analyst days, did you expect it to be harder or easier? And then what was reality?
JKim219: [00:31:32] Sorry. Yeah, can you hear me? Yeah, sorry, Patrick, you're breaking a little bit.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:39] Oh, just saying that, you know, you had the experience, the analysts experience, which you weren't going in blind, did you expect the after the rebranding of the business school and now the bulge bracket bank? Did you expect it to be harder, easier, did you think? And what was reality?
JKim219: [00:31:58] I expect it to be harder, which it was. Mm hmm. But I also find I found myself enjoying it a lot. Ok. And it's kind of, I don't know everyone I speak to in investment banking. It's kind of a love hate relationship. Mm hmm. It's, you know, it is very tough environment where you're expected to perform at very high level and spend 20 hours a day in the office, which was true. But at the same time, you know, I mean, it was exciting in a way that you work with very smart people, you work with these, you know, highly important business people around the world. And you know, you get to see a lot. So what
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:45] So did you ever did
JKim219: [00:32:46] Ever cross your mind? In many ways,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:49] Did it ever cross your mind
JKim219: [00:32:50] That being in bulge bracket was very different from?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:55] So did it ever cross your mind to stay? Did you ever think, hey, maybe I'll stay long term? Not sure if you can hear me.
JKim219: [00:33:10] Yeah, sorry, Patrick, I couldn't hear your back.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:33:13] Yeah, I was just saying, did you ever consider staying? Did you ever could?
JKim219: [00:33:18] Yeah. Yes, I did. You know, I you know, I guess, you know, if you ask me why I left, it wasn't because, you know, the I didn't like the scope or work I am doing. I just, you know, being in, you know, sell side and investment banking for a while, including my experience before B school. Um, you know, I hit the point where, you know, I hit the point, I realize like, I need to be a salesperson. Mm-hmm. And. Again, that's. Well, I figured that's not that's not who I am and also. Working in investment banking, meaning working with these, you know, your corporate and private clients. It is truly I was truly curious about being on the other side of the table. Wanted to see the transaction and finance world from different lengths, like because being an investment banker, you are. You are a supporting team to for your clients to execute the transaction. But they don't necessarily share everything with you, right? And you are not close. You know, you are their best friends and that short span of time. But you don't get to see how the beans are actually are run, and you don't get to understand what what is truly going on behind those numbers.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:00] Ok, so tell me a little bit about your transition from associate to bulge bracket investment banking to trying to find your next role in corporate development. Was that something you knew targeted corporate debt or did you start kind of applying to other
JKim219: [00:35:14] Roles as well? Yeah, I mean, that was my, you know? The target from the beginning when I when I started actively searching for exit opportunities. You know? If I found a primary job, maybe that's probably was also very attractive. But no one in reality or associate is hard to get a job. Oh yeah. Almost impossible. Yeah, almost impossible.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:35:44] I've actually interviewed a few on this podcast to two out of like. But they're super rare. Yeah, that's why I have them on, because I'm like, how did you do it?
JKim219: [00:35:54] Exactly. I saw a few, but you know, I mean, I don't think there was any special recipe to it. Yeah. So anyway,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:04] So corporate development seemed like the most reasonable and most attractive kind of opportunity out there. So was it a long recruiting process for you? Was it easy where recruiters reaching out to you? How did you go about the search? Were you using linked at this point? We're using, you know?
JKim219: [00:36:19] Oh yeah, I was. I was fully using LinkedIn at this point. Ok. You know, so I mean. I mean, the not only using LinkedIn, but I mean, I have few few managers who left my team and joined corporate development of a few major corporates, so I started reaching out to them. I also asked for referrals through my managing directors. Hmm. I mean, I could only ask because they were leaving my bank.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:57] Got it. Yeah. So you weren't asking for referrals from people who are staying there because they probably would have been really pissed.
JKim219: [00:37:02] Exactly, exactly. I mean, you know, this guy's already exiting out from my bank and I spend hours and hours, you know, for these this guy. So I felt that I needed to have that. I deserved that opportunity. So, you know, yeah, which, you know, really thankfully help me out. You know,he, you know, connect me to one of the major major corporate and corporate development client of his didn't turn up, you know, turning. You know, I you know, I did end up going there because they weren't necessarily looking or looking for someone at the moment. Yeah, but you know, I guess that's the way I went about it. You know, reaching out through my peers who left or about to leave and also through LinkedIn, which, to my surprise, actually lend the interview as well. Again, you know, not ended up going up going in there. But I, you know, that was that was a big one for me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:01] That's great. So how did you end up at your actual role? What was the what was the link that actually turned out to be fruitful?
JKim219: [00:38:07] Oh yeah. So for this one, you know, my ex, you know, director, join my current company about a year before. So you know, so after he left, about after 12 months when I was, this is what I started actively searching for it. You know, I reached out to him and asked if he has any opportunities, you know, available in his team. And, you know, thankfully at that time, yes, he was actually was one of one of his team members left and he was in search of finding someone.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:49] So. So was that like the do you feel like it was a done deal once you reach up since you already had that working relationship with him? No, it was still competitive.
JKim219: [00:38:59] You know, I would say it was still company. I had to still meet the head of a group, you know, interview with probably a good five or six other, you know, active M&A related. You know, people
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:12] Talk to me about those interviews where they were they similar to banking in the sense that the Corp Dev M&A, like, are they expecting to know a lot about M&A and the process? Are they testing you on that or are they testing you more on the specific industry that your corporate is in?
JKim219: [00:39:25] It was. It was less focused on industry itself, but more about, you know, your M&A and transaction experiences
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:35] Like your deal, your deals,
JKim219: [00:39:37] Specifically my deals and, you know, my deliverables to my clients back in my investing days and how I went about it. You know, there wasn't like modeling test or anything like that at this stage of my career. But you know, they expect it to me to be a technical, for sure. So.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:01] So that was that, so that was getting you ended up landing it and you've been there ever since and how are you enjoying it, the corp dev, how is the pace compared to banking?
JKim219: [00:40:11] Oh, it's great. You know, I really enjoy my job, honestly. Did you have
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:16] To take a big pay cut or was it similar?
JKim219: [00:40:19] Speaker base wise, that probably matches your missing banking or jobs?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:26] I would like one one twenty five one fifty.
JKim219: [00:40:30] I got more than that, OK? I mean, I also understand it depends very industry. You're going in and it also depends on, you know, there isn't like a set pay. Yeah, pay level, like investment banking.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:40:40] Ok. And then specifically, the bonus is obviously much smaller
JKim219: [00:40:43] Bonuses are smaller, you know, as you go up. Some of them incentivize you. Would their stock options, which could be big? Yeah. But you know, definitely you're not talking about one hundred and fifty percent bonus. You get in peace or
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:01] You're more like 20, 30 percent something like that.
JKim219: [00:41:05] Yeah. For cash part. Yes. Yeah. Ok.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:09] Very cool. So anything else you want to share before we call it, it's been interesting to hear, especially. I really enjoyed the part about the prop trading because I don't think we've heard about that, even though it's probably a painful thing to relive. So thank you for doing that. Tell me, tell me a little about anything else you want to share with your younger self. If you could go back and give your younger self advice back in two thousand eight nine, what would you say, man?
JKim219: [00:41:31] I, I would say. I will say you. Always need to stay curious and humble. Um, meaning that. You know, you really, really have to. I mean, people, a lot of people joined this industry for money. But you know, if you don't have time to spend your money, it's really doesn't mean much. And you know, the down the road, I guess it does, but. Um, you know, people. That I have met in this industry who have been more successful are the ones who are always curious and engaged in the market, and they're truly, truly interested in learning more and digging deep into the business, not just the numbers and modeling itself, but. You know, they're always, you know. You know, they always, you know, stay ahead of the market. They always learn more about transaction that's, you know, that are happening right now. So, you know, really. I would advise to really ask yourself whether you're really enjoying this and curious to learn more, and that probably tells you whether you want to stay in this industry or not because it does really get to you. The level of stress and everything, but at the same time, I wish. You know, people can stay humble, you know, oftentimes. You know, all of these glamorous life that they describe missing banking and financial industry and the position you are in and, you know, feels like empowers you. Well, you know, it's just and you probably deserve that because you probably work your ass off to get to get to where you are, but always, always, I think you need to understand, you know, you are very fortunate that you are selected and you are able to work here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:45] So appreciate the luck that's going into it. So don't think it's all you? Yeah, it
JKim219: [00:43:49] Could. It could very well be someone next to you in your interview, right? Oftentimes.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:55] Cool. Well, I think we'll leave it at that. It's a good reminder to stay humble and stay curious. So thank you for your time. No worries, Pat, and thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis, if you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis. And till next time.
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