WSO Podcast | E92: BB IB Associate in London from Pre-MBA Consulting
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In this episode, @LondonMentor shares his journey from going to a non-target in Italy to breaking into consulting where he worked for over 3 years. Listen how he eventually decided to take on a lot of debt to go to a top MBA program and make a successful transition to investment banking in London at a top bank. Make sure you don't miss how much he had to pay in penalties to his consulting firm for not going back and why it was still an easy choice for him. A really fun chat, hope you enjoy it!
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WSO Podcast (Episode 92) Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:06] Hello and welcome. I'm Patrick Curtis. Your host and chief monkey, and this is the Wall Street Oasis podcast. Join me as I talk to some of the community's most successful and inspirational members to gain valuable insight into different career paths and life in general. Let's get to it. In this episode, LondonMentor shares his journey from going to a non-target in Italy to breaking into consulting where he worked for over three years. Listen, how he eventually decided to take on a lot of debt to go to a top MBA program and make a successful transition to investment banking in London and a top bank? Make sure you don't miss how much he had to pay in penalties to his consulting firm for not going back and why it was still an easy choice for him. A really fun chat. Hope you enjoy. Good mentor. Thanks so much for joining the Wall Street Voices podcast.
LondonMentor: [00:01:03] Hi, Patrick, Thank you for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:05] So it'd be great if you could just start with a short summary of your bio for the listeners. Absolutely. So I graduated with a Bachelor in Business Administration. I'm Italian of origin, and after that I decided to do
LondonMentor: [00:01:19] A master's in accounting because I totally would have been a useful foundation, no matter what I would have ended up doing. Later on after that, I started my career in consulting because I told it's quite broad space where you can start your career in and you can gain quite differentiated skill set, but maintain your perspective still growth. However, as I was working more in a subsector which was those parts of the due diligence, I realized that I was interested more in the transaction experience and therefore I started thinking brainstorming how I could transition to investment banking, as you might know. The transition is very rarely done directly, so I decided to go for an MBA. I went to one of the top two MBAs in Europe, and I managed to successfully transition to to Ebeid in a weird way, if you want, because before I did the traditional internship in one of the top three investment banking in the world. And after that, I and in another different firm because they approached me at a later stage. But anyway, the recruiting process was successful, and now I'm at this measure for an industrial team being involved since then in a private transaction. Sell side and a couple of finances. So it's been very easy, very hectic and very so far. It's very hectic. Very hectic. Yes. Yes. I mean, the couple, let's say the beginning of the year, I've been there office, a bit of a slowdown, but last year was incredibly, incredibly hectic. So as I say, in one year, I was able to close three transactions, plus a couple of financings. So that's quite an achievement from my perspective. I joined banking with an idea on one hand to possibly stay long term, but on the other, also with the insight that having consulting, I'm in banking. I can have a broad profile. And therefore, f I would like to transition to the buy side, that's also something that is considered valuable. So that's the plan. And it seems to be
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:39] That seems to be a theme of your
LondonMentor: [00:03:41] Kind of plan like you did
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:42] The accounting because it gives you the broad base. It's giving you optionality.
LondonMentor: [00:03:45] You seem to place
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:47] A lot of value in optionality and keeping you here. Yes, I believe it. Look, as I as a recent graduate, the most important thing you have to to learn are the tools and the mentality. The how to approach problem. The basic Excel PowerPoint. How to think about the structure and be organised. And once you get it from there, there are certain
LondonMentor: [00:04:09] Sectors that you can easily sell yourself into being private
equity, being also corporate development. If you want to go another way, optionality for me is important. But another factor that I deem important is, let's call it having a comprehensive view of the world. So when I was in consulting, it was very important the commercial aspect strategy and so on. But I was missing the financial analysis being closer to the market, the transactional aspect. And here I'm gaining that aspect as well,Which I believe creates a more comprehensive individual. So I see, for instance, nowadays that when I deal with analysts, I have to. they're very, very fast. They're great executors. But sometimes they do miss the big picture, whereas where I was in consulting was the other way around. Maybe they are tools such a brainstorm, but they miss the very important detail which to them is not obvious. So having both perspective can be quite helpful.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:14] So let's go all the way back to your early days, your undergraduate. So were you thinking what you were in school? Where in so I was in, I was in Turin, which is not traditionally all the people in Italian in London are coming from Bokoni.
LondonMentor: [00:05:35] That's the kind of natural path. My school was quite good on an academic perspective. It wasn't as good as Bokoni on, let's say, connection to market placement because of this stuff. Exactly. Most of the stuff I had to learn my myself, I came from a family, which is, I would say. But none of them is in finance, nor gave me any instruction or the word works. So I end up knowing about, for instance, McKinsey, the last year of my unit had never heard before. So it's something that I did.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:06:11] You know what investment banking was your senior year? No clue. So you just like the only thing you were introduced to was McKinsey and consulting by the end correctly? That's correct. That's how I ended up to actually to be. It's even more likely it's run some time. I, as I say, I wanted to learn stuff by myself, so I travel a lot. I ended up doing a startup in China. Then I ended up in a bank.
LondonMentor: [00:06:34] But let's say commercial bank in Dublin, in Ireland, and they're my former boss, used to be a consultant at the firm that I ended up to in the end. So it kind of recommended me because the work I was doing could see that was not that challenging. I was getting worse in time. It was more of an asset management of wealth, individual wealthy individuals. Yeah. So you realized that probably consulting was something that was more in line with. And then I ended up in this way, interviewing and having a job there. So kind of random. And then gradually another piece by working on due diligence, getting in contact with banks, seeing their job made me realize that maybe that was more for me. So you basically
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:25] You basically didn't know anything going to undergrad. What were you thinking you were going to do? What is it always? You knew you were going to go get your master's in accounting anyways, and so you had time to figure it out. Was that the thought? So actually, the way it works in Europe and more specifically, south in Europe. So I would say Spain, Italy, France is that
LondonMentor: [00:07:43] You generally tend to get the bachelor degree and then the master altogether. It's kind of them. It's a normal path, let's say. Whereas in the UK is not and of course in the US is not as well. So that was for me was something that I always considered for granted. And then, as I say, I hadn't exactly a clue. I know that I like numbers. I know that I like some fast paced environment, but I had no idea what I ended up doing. Started consulting sort of like it. So the angle of banking and thought I would be like even more. And so I approached this thing with this in mind, like step by step.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:22] So before we go there, the question is it is it the cost of
LondonMentor: [00:08:26] Attending undergraduate
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:28] School and then master's? Is it significantly cheaper than here in the U.S.? I assume.
LondonMentor: [00:08:32] Yes, it is. It is significantly cheaper, especially if you especially if you go what we call like public schools, which has slightly different meaning than what you as people think you have. It's significantly
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:45] Cheaper. Yes, public people here too, especially if you're in state. If you live in state,
LondonMentor: [00:08:50] You can still be
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:50] Expensive. If you're if you go to Bokoni, you still have quite a high fee, but nowhere close to, for instance, my MBA in London, which was.
LondonMentor: [00:09:02] Comparatively, will be also expensive for us, I we say, or at least in line. So yeah, that's also part of the reason, probably. And also another reason which is key why in Europe we tend to study longer is that we are less we are less connected to the market, unfortunately, in a way that we don't do much of an internship nowadays,Getting more comments. But until a few years ago, it was pretty normal. Someone will wake up five years study with no internship or one at max. Now I see, like young graduates approaching me for coffee, chat and so on was already like 10 different internship is faster than me and excel being born. Exactly. Know what to do.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:47] Born out of the womb in Excel like knowing would be lookups are exactly something you know, which I learned on the job. Yeah. So that's part of the reason I would say.
LondonMentor: [00:09:59] What do you think of that change, do you do you think it's a it's a good thing
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:02] For them to get exposure to the actual careers before they kind of decide? Or do you feel like
LondonMentor: [00:10:06] It's too much pressure on one end? I think it's useful to have someone who guides you in life and give you this perspective so that you can get ahead on the other, I think. It's a bit on a Saxon time, because it's as if you were born ready with someone else giving you the idea that that's the job for you and all the roads lead to that path, but not necessary sometimes is also better for the personality to explore to find different, different ways. And maybe you can say people are afraid to lose one or lose two years, whatever, but in a lifetime, that's pretty irrelevant. It's much more important to explore and find what is really for you. I've seen so many people, especially nowadays in London, but everywhere there is so much. This is slightly different topic, but with a similar result, there is so much focus on diversity. And women are sometimes obliged to come. I wouldn't say oblige, but like are so much spurred into going into investment banking, whereas maybe these are dream initially was completely different. And then just because it's Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan, they feel that they have to accept to go into it. And then after,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:20] Because how could you turn this down like? Exactly, exactly. To and then they realize that they don't like it or it's such a stressful environment that is not for them. So sometimes the point here being is helpful, but on the other hand, it can be a
LondonMentor: [00:11:37] Double edged sword.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:38] Yeah, I always think for my kids, like delaying, like when I look back on my college, I think to myself, I had no clue what I was doing or where I was going. And when you're 19, 20 years old, how can you know what you want to do? Exactly, exactly. There's another program, I think it's northeastern that actually has these long co-ops, these long internships, where during the year you're kind of taking these, which I think is kind of nice. You still don't. It's still hard to get a true flavor for the job in these internships, because at least you get a little flavor. But yeah, yeah, hopefully Wall Street is doing its part to actually get some realistic perspectives profile because I think it's super important to be able to know what you're stepping into.
LondonMentor: [00:12:23] And I think you're totally right about the year,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:26] Like taking a year off just to explore. I think I don't know if it's in Australia, they everyone does that. There's like a year off before they go to school or they after they graduate. It's just expected that you're going to travel the world. Yeah. I think somewhere else in the world is considered as you're wasting time, you're always need to be in a rush. You need to be the youngest in your class, the fastest.
LondonMentor: [00:12:46] And in the long term, that's not a healthy
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:49] Approach. It's not. And I think and I think the banks are moving away a little bit from being so rigid about what schools they recruit from and what. And I was just talking to a partner today at a private equity fund, a top private equity fund in San Francisco, and he was saying like, it's gotten so crazy with the recruiting and accelerator recruiting and all this that they're starting to look at like non-traditional candidates they're starting to look at because they're hiring people that have no experience guessing just because of the school they went to, and they're hiring people that aren't working out. So anyways, it's interesting that that whole thing. So let's go back to your story. The can we call your for lack of a better term? Everyone hates the non target. Can we call your undergrad? It was just it was. It was a good academically, a strong school. You did well, you went to a
LondonMentor: [00:13:39] Master's program at a different school.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:41] Was there a reason you changed schools? No, no. It was actually the same school differently. Ok, so then
LondonMentor: [00:13:47] You were
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:48] There in that year in the accounting and finance master's. Is that when you really started looking at more like, OK, you said, like, OK, banking is interesting to me,
LondonMentor: [00:13:58] Potentially, but
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:00] Or consulting was really your main focus. Consulting at that time was my main focus, I would say, mostly
LondonMentor: [00:14:07] Because I had no experience of alumni ended up in investment banking at that time. So to be clear, majority of alumni from my school will be. With all due respect, but like KPMG or be that you see or retail banks, that's the typical outcome. So I don't know. So that's why I was not the brother, nor I had an idea. Also, to be clear, now has been a big change after Brexit, but at that time there were very few investment banks in Milan. Now they're starting a bit to decentralize. We have seen that in Paris and Frankfurt, and to a lesser extent, why is that as well?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:47] Explain to me why is Brexit caused more decentralization? So it has caused more centralization because for passporting reason in Europe, there is a directive which say that you need to have a certain presence in the country where you're operating, where you're doing deals. And before it was not an issue because it was all Europe. But now that is not Europe anymore. They are what I've seen for setting up little satellite offices. Exactly, exactly what I've seen more than bringing people from London away. They are hiring more people there than here, maybe freezing the hiring here. But the new hiring, if you know if, for instance, if you are German speaker, immediately you get transition to move to Frankfurt
LondonMentor: [00:15:31] Without question. Do you feel like after
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:33] A few years of London, that might be a really nice way to get back home to
LondonMentor: [00:15:36] Italy? Probably, yes. Probably yes. Because I do like London on some perspective, such as such a fast moving city. But on the other, like the weather is killing me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:15:45] Yeah, I know it's brutal. It's like, yeah, yeah, it's always great. It's always great. That's what kills me. That would be able to California. It's always sunny here. Yeah, that would be. We have fires, though. We have a fire problem out here. It's freaky. But anyway, so OK. So you're
LondonMentor: [00:16:06] There. You're kind of tell me about the
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:08] Whole interview process for is it the typical case interview structure? You start practicing
LondonMentor: [00:16:12] With your
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:16:13] Colleagues. How did you get even get into line for something? Sure. So as I say, my former boss in this bank and Dublin four, where my CV and all of a sudden is asking say, OK, what is it actually strategic consulting googling into internet ended up with all those big searching frameworks and Cosentino and so on. So a lot of preparation by myself initially. I'm quite structure, so even if I didn't have a clue, I divide it by topic, trying to keep it on track every day. And then after a while
LondonMentor: [00:16:48] Starting to practice with france, which I knew in two other way outside school or randomly online doing cases. And that's how I ended up in consulting. And as I say, I did like the job on some perspective, consulting such a broad word that sometimes it can be very boring stuff as a project management. Tell me, what were you doing?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:17:17] Were you? They had certain clients, you're flying out to the client every week. Yes. So the job is quite different. That could be interesting to compare the two, but let's say one of the major difference the work in terms of where you perform it.
LondonMentor: [00:17:31] So you're typically from Monday until Thursday at the client base, sometimes even Friday, just which means at the beginning, it seems so cool that you're travelling but not really traveling, right? Typically, just to give you an example, I had a project for six months. This was a post-merger integration of two larger companies getting together in Prague, like the integration was in Czech Republic. It means that every Monday I would wake up at four a.m., getting on a plane at around 7:00 and be there 10 or 11, and then the Friday back home at 11 12 for six months this way.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:16] And then, to be clear, it was all meeting. You had at least Friday afternoon offer you were still doing. No, no. In that case, it was the whole week. So it was actually a night at the horrible. And to be clear, yes, it was. It was. And to be clear, it was not even Prague like it was an industrial plant outside.
LondonMentor: [00:18:37] You couldn't even
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:18:37] Go like clubbing in Prague and enjoy it. I couldn't go. I mean, I could go some days where maybe it was a bit
LondonMentor: [00:18:44] Quieter, but on an average week, no. And also, I had to tweet, Can you imagine this? Can you figure out? The moments where you have to have lunch there, it's nothing about you. The only place is the canteen of industrial work and in Prague that typically they eat very, very greasy stuff. So that was my entire six months in the canteen.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:07] What's the canteen? What is that the canteen is like? Where you where you get? It's like, yeah, it's like a restaurant, but
LondonMentor: [00:19:16] Paid by the firm. And they
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:19] Typically have. Yeah, yeah, it's a full restaurant with the fine, but with very limited choice. And you typically have, you know, those perks and quite
LondonMentor: [00:19:30] Quite heavy food. So it's difficult to work after that. So that was one of the.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:36] How much weight did you gain in those six months? Be honest. Quite a lot. Yeah, I don't recall exactly, but I remember the next project. I would go running every morning. I would wake up myself early in the morning just
LondonMentor: [00:19:49] To get away with you.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:19:52] Ok, so you're in this. It gives people a good perspective of like, it's not so glamorous. You're waking up early, having to fly to Prague, but you're not really in Prague. You're in the outskirts of industrial Prague. Yeah. Did you get to tour it at all? I was interested in a move to Prague, actually, after I lived in Buenos Aires for a year. I was going to go move there next and tore all of Europe through there. But I never happen because I met my wife in Boston. So then I that was it. Oh wow. So tell me, should I? Did I miss out? Was Prague incredible? I'm going to visit there. Prague is a quite nicely especially. You're a single guy. I mean, a couple of times I stayed there
LondonMentor: [00:20:24] For the weekend and I was single at that time. I'm not anymore. And it was fun.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:29] You had a lot of fun. Yes, it's really fun. Like, girls are quite open minded
LondonMentor: [00:20:35] And the vibe is good.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): 00:20:37] Nice. So OK. So you're
LondonMentor: [00:20:39] Basically going back and
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:41] Forth. You get off that one, you go into another plan, but you're doing your consultant for how many years? Then I was doing consulting for slightly less than four years. So three and a
LondonMentor: [00:20:50] Half, let's say,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:20:52] Um, what made you think MBA? Like what got that into your head? Investment banking? What eventually? So at some point I was working more and more on due diligence, so I supported CBC and the likes. And on one end, I was lobbying when we were giving our perspective on the market, the competitor and so on. But I felt I was always missing. What is this word for? What is the like as if we were cut
LondonMentor: [00:21:18] Off at some point we couldn't see the entire process, the entire picture. And I was fascinated by these bankers preparing the preparing their modelling that we were having some sexual empowerment, but we were all we couldn't see the entire thing. And so at that point in time, I say, what is the best way? I had a chat we had with someone at Morgan Stanley at that time asking about how could I do the transition? And he told me that it was quite difficult. This guy was from the office. He told me it's quite difficult. Our office small and traditionally also we don't direct the consultants, but I know that someone made it for an MBA. Why don't you try that path? And that's what I did in the choice of MBA. I wanted to stay long term in Europe, mostly because I Like I like living here, let's say. And in Europe, there are only two to MBA. I believe you can consider if you want to go to a top, I'm a top bank after that.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:22:20] Yeah, now you're at the top bulge bracket bank. Yes, so. So yeah, I consider INSEAD and RBS, which are both great schools. Yeah. So, OK, tell me a little bit about so you knew this going into your MBA, you knew that you actually wanted to go into banking, so you were dead set on that recruiting path. Did you do any specific legwork prior? So you obviously have to do the applications, which is a pain and you have to write all the essays and take that. Would you take the mat for this? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And that was a pain because I was, as I told you last year, the consulting was our due diligence. So still not as hard as banking, but quite hard. Seventy point seventy five Yeah, I will say the average seventy when it was a hard week, maybe.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:08] How about pay? Can you tell me your a range of what you started at and what you progressed up over the years? So yeah, sure, this is you might be. Consider that this is all like Eataly salary, so you need to adjust for the cost of living. But I started as a base at thirty five with bonus bonuses because that is not huge these across Europe, so it's around 30 percent. And then when after the third year, that will as increase quite a lot because it was 70 with bonus.
LondonMentor: [00:23:42] Still, 30 percent was
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:44] Double you almost double.
LondonMentor: [00:23:45] Yeah, yeah. Because I was I was quite I wasn't fast track. So basically every year I was promoted, I had because. Last term would be two years, so it was quite a good career for that,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:23:56] That you left or you said you're going to leave. Yes. Actually, that was the tricky part.
LondonMentor: [00:24:01] I left being a sponsor consultant because at that time again, going back to where I come from, I didn't have the money to fund my MBA nor Aspen. Nor a bank would loan me out all that money because living in I ended up I didn't mention before, but I ended up at LDS and living longer is extremely expensive, plus the cost of the master. So all in all, you're looking to find yourself with 200k or so. And it's not that. I mean, I could have saved that. And bank in Italy are quite traditional. So just to explain the concept of an MBA and putting money in there where you have a good salary, it's something that they look at you. You're crazy, like you were such a good salary why you would go and spend all this money back to school, not having the salary costs opportunity for two years and so on. So I was only marginally able to finance that for a loan. And then I took sponsorship from my previous firm in consulting with, of course, the caveat that I would have had to return that with a penalty if I had left after two years with 10 percent. No, the penalty is quite huge since they are used to people doing so for different reasons, being private equity, being banking.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:25:18] They're used to people like notcoming back. There's a huge there is a share of there is a share, I would say 50 percent of the people from consulting going into MBA who either decide to go for either life, either life. I mean, like Facebook, Amazon and the like. Yeah, or even play harder and goals. I would say reducing share. But there is still a share of people going into banking or directly to be so they used to lose a significant share of those people. So give me a sense of what they're lending you like what this consulting firm was lending you. So they were if it was their way of telling me 70 K, 70, yes, and I had to pay back 100.Oh yes. So that's a loan. So let me let me give you this perspective, give you the full numbers, because that's like, that's like a 40 percent penalty. Correct, which is almost illegal. Is that legal? Yeah. Is it to say, you know, you can't, you know, what do you? You sign a contract with them saying, Hey, I recognize the law and here, OK, but wait, this is the only way you could have financed your. Exactly that was I was aware that it
LondonMentor: [00:26:40] Was kind of financially like,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:26:43] This is like a black market of financing MBAs. That's crazy. I've never heard of that. It's not like they're charging you like 40 percent interest rate. That's why all the people that don't get an exceptional offer go back to consulting because they cannot afford. They have also a significant retention program beyond what I just mentioned that if you go back, they give you a relatively small but not so small, like 20 K signing. So basically, if you leave you, you lose the 70 that they owe, that they loan you. So it's kind of fair return money plus the 30 plus the 20
LondonMentor: 00:27:20] That you don't get because you're giving it back. Additionally, do that. I tell you more. There is a low given that Italy is losing significant brain to U.S., U.K. and so on. The government implemented basically tax free for the seventy five percent of the salary is completely dead tax. So if I go back, I would have had 90 K plus 30 percent of bonus. Seventy five percent tax free, not a loan and a signing bonus.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:27:50] It's really like. So it's really like a hundred and fifty two hundred seventy k euros. Yeah. If you had gone back versus. So that's the level of craziness in accepting this choice. Now tell me about. So I get it. But you're looking long term and you're looking. You're saying, I've already made the investment in school. I want to be, you know, working on something different. Like you said, I understand the financial modeling. It makes you more well-rounded. It makes you more clear your whole career and so you're investing in your career is how you can think of it, even though it was very enticing to take the money. I'm sure so. But tell me a little bit about just how you saw that math. So like when now you're accepting at a bulge bracket associate? Yeah, what do they what are they paying you? I know it's in the database, but just yeah. So let me give you the full picture. I work during my MBA. I've done two internship, one in the other major bank, which pays relatively well for an internship. We are talking about 12 weeks. I think it's around 20 K or so. You're talking Europe slightly like this is inbound. Less than 20 K, 18, 19. Yeah. Then I've done another internship in midcap private equity. One billion fund, which paid similarly. And then I ended up so those
LondonMentor: [00:29:04] Money I contribute towards the repayment of the loan and the living costs of an MBA. And then I started the year back approximately a year ago. The starting salary is ninety one k in pounds. There is a signing bonus, which is between a relocation and it gets you to k pounds again. Yep. And then the variable it's around, it depends on your performance, but it's around 80 percent of your salary in, say, 80 plus.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:39] Yeah, yeah. So you're still doing better, you're still doing better. And the perspective is not in year
LondonMentor: [00:29:45] One. But after you say, what's the payback?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:29:47] When was the break even like two and a half years?That's that's correct. Yes. And also I was able to OK these advanced finance, personal finance, but I was able to refinance that loan through peer, basically loaning me out money at their interest rate because when I did, the loan was like two three years, three years ago. So interest rate was completely different than the macro environment that we have right now, right? So I was paying
LondonMentor: [00:30:13] Five plus forever. Now I'm playing with longer plus five. Yes, it's a high. It was a personal loan with no guarantor. Now I'm paying like two point five,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:27] Five or two point five flat, two point five flat. Oh, so it's quite it's quite a
LondonMentor: [00:30:31] Good, good rate. So yeah, that's the old story. And then I'm doing daily trading on pounds worth so euro because we have a huge volatility since the Brexit, the coronavirus and so on. So there are plenty of opportunities to
LondonMentor: [00:30:47] Tell me a little bit
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:30:47] About. So you're doing a little day trading on the side on top of your. Yeah, I mean, it's not really. It's not really.
LondonMentor: [00:30:53] I would say I am just exposed to pound and euro. And when I'm when one is terrible, I exchange one way or the other. That's I would say that way rather than say I'm to right now.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:31:04] Got it fair. Ok, so you're just having a little bit of arbitrage there for yourself, correct? Because you have debt denominated in one and not the other or whatever. Correct. Ok, so tell me a little bit about what's it like in terms of was the expectation coming out of business school that the hours are going to be longer? Has that been what you've expected? And then tell me a little bit about just having to manage? I assume you're managing now, analysts, whereas maybe you didn't tell me what that?
LondonMentor: [00:31:32] Yeah, so you're touching two great points. First one, they always tell you that it's terrible. It's worse. I mean, one bank, you're not sleeping. So as I say, the start of the new year has been slightly better. But the first six seven months were terrible. Like times in the bank which you were in you to be one of the most workaholic and within that bank, I mean, the team that together. So there are two teams that are new to be long hours. One is fake, the other one is industrial, I mean industrial. So it was quite quite heavy. Hmm. And when I say heavy, especially at the beginning, because there are multiple, there are multiple new factors coming in. So on one hand, it's a new environment, It's new tool, it's new job. You have analysts to manage that. Most of the time are more knowledgeable than you, at least on an execution perspective, and they're faster in Excel, that's for sure. I used to be one of the Nerida in consulting, doing macros and stuff, but still here I will say. I'm definitely not the fastest, I probably in the medium or even less, slightly less. So that's first
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:32:55] For us, for us and European banking. Yeah, and you're slow compared to the analysts because they've been there for two or three years and they're. Yeah, absolutely. And something that you lose, right? Even if you if you stop for causing anxiety was more on the client. After saying they're three years now, it was more on a client facing starting to present your work and so on. As an associate, you still have to do a lot of grunt work or do grunt work of people. So that's a key factor. And coming from
LondonMentor: [00:33:24] An MBA,I would say, of course, you need to be super humble to show that you're put in the same hour as the analyst do, but also, on the other hand, being able to bring something to the table. Because if you are just behaving as an analyst, who's learning? Senior will look at you like in a disrespectful way, so you need to be fast to close the gap. But on the other, try to bring in your qualities from the MBA, so maybe understand more. The priority is being able to manage upwards, communicate clearly and being a bit more lead in the process side of it and when the client and so on. So that's the two advice I would give to the MBA going into. You're working to
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:08] Add to your working literally 90 plus hours pretty consistently. Yes. Yes, I would say so. The key here for me has been the weekend. So my firm has implemented one of the many rules where, yeah, like you protected Saturday or exactly. I think of all the bullet brackets here. Exactly. The other face of the of the coin is that if you have one protected day, then the next is considered completely like 9:00 a.m. in the office or 10:00 a.m. in the office. And it's always tomorrow. It's all like every day, every
LondonMentor: [00:34:44] It's a work day. Then you can sometimes be flexible, whether it's working from home four or five hours or it's full day in the office, that varies, but on average, always, always working day. And so what
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:34:59] Are you holding up? I know it's really tough. How are you holding up mentally? Mentally fine, because I'm saying I'm quite strong as a personality, but when you are bad, you are at a different stage in life. So I'm older than a traditional associate, having done to through consulting and MBA, and you start having a long term partner. Thank God I don't have kids, but you know, at some point they will count. And that's
LondonMentor: [00:35:26] The tricky part, because if you have one, you are. You married? I'm not married, but in a long term relationship, at some point it's on the plate once I paid off my debts. And so, yeah, once you have one day a week for yourself and that day most likely you're tired, you're stressed, you still on mentally because you know, there's the call tomorrow. There's the debt to be sent out. It's quite difficult to manage. That improves with time. Yes or no. I see my senior. Are there still, of course, they're not going to work on an excel at three a.m., but they're still exhausted by travelling. They're still doing call at midnight. So that's something that made me reflect at some point. I like the job, but it's something that I don't believe is sustainable long term if you want to have anything else outside your work.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:36:20] Mm hmm. And so what are you thinking? I think, you know, you said your long term relationship, I hope you're your partner is actually very understanding of your schedule. That's yeah, she is all she's if she's not, it's kind of even harder to give you a fun fact. She's doing something completely different. She's a doctor and we start dating you in the MBA, actually. And. I was doing my internship in a private equity, which was a mid cap, so lifestyle was quite relaxed for a consulting or banking perspective, so I was ended up like a nine or so. And she was like at the very beginning, why are you staying so late in the office? What's going on? And I was supposed to start in, like a few months later say, oh my God, this is going to be hard.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:08] Yeah. So did you warn her? Do you give her lots of warnings? I gave her a lot of warnings, and what helps is that a lot of people out of the MBA, which are my friends, her friends are in a similar condition, so it becomes kind of new normality around you.
LondonMentor: 00:37:23] But the suggestion there is to involve your partner in everything. Of course, you don't have time anymore to split friends, partner family, so you need to be able to manage everything at the same time in your small, free time.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:38] So tell me, like it's like you said you're not sure long term. What's your thought? I know you said potentially you.
LondonMentor: [00:37:43] You see yourself as
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:37:44] Being fairly flexible in terms of private equity. I think personally, I've heard of the almost hundred guests have had on this podcast. I've only interviewed two that have made the Ivy Associate to private equity jump. It's incredibly difficult, but possible but possible. And it's all about who you know, just as it
LondonMentor: [00:38:06] Always is, right?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:38:08] So, yeah, I mean, it's one of those things, if that's what you want, it's doable. But yes, I would say I don't know whether the associate you mentioned was from U.S. or Europe. In your commentary, you're saying it's I wouldn't say it's common.
LondonMentor: [00:38:24] I will say it's feasible. I've heard cases. It's again. So I had few conversation with Dante because they always reach out. They first. So first of all, it depends on what you want. If you want mid-market, it's quite feasible. If you want a large gap. It's harder because the traditional path they get, they call analysts after it used to be three years now to one, so it's getting earlier and earlier because they want to get hold of the talents very soon. And also because they can pay less. But is this is feasible? You need to demonstrate again, you need to go back to the lab there in a way that you after being mentioned before, but would have gone back to consulting as a project manager because I was already. I had the Post MBA position before the MBA, so they would hire me back as a project manager and then here in the bank as an associate, second year associate, but still associate. And then I would have to make a move as a big fund where it was possible, like we went up again as an associate, which is the last in the ladder. So it's also something that it must be reciprocal, so the fund must be willing to accept that. But it's also new. And then beside that is the usual hyper competitive space compared with the hundred for one or two positions. So that's where I were of that. Yeah.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:39:55] Yeah. And so in terms of. I wanted to ask you about cultural things, so like you're from Italy, you're working in London. What's it like in the office? Is there any sort of cultural things that are awkward or things that are different? Maybe not awkward, but just yeah.
LondonMentor: [00:40:17] Tell me about that. Yeah, I will just say for sure. There's quite a big difference. So London is great because it's a melting pot, so you have people from literally everywhere. The British are a minority, so we're saying like 10 percent or so in my team, for instance, there's a huge community of Italians for dimension for the reason I mentioned before. But I will say more than London versus Italy, which of course, has some different. But the most striking one is definitely consulting versus banking both. Both people are extremely smart. Generally, it goes maybe because of the nature of the job banking people. I found it a bit less interesting as I way around individual, um, simply because maybe they were interested in the first place, but simply because they don't have time to do. I don't know a lot of people doing startups, doing volunteer and doing whatever they like here. It's so hard to have a consistent routine and habit and help whatever you. t's something that you can't say I have really and that I maintain every week X hours. Right? If you are someone else like family or one or the other, that's the point. Yeah. Um, so that's one for another difference is that there's less team working in a way. There's a lot of individual work. There is still working, but it's more like we split the task. I review. Yeah, then
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:41:53] Like, you go off in your silo and you do your work and you come back. Exactly, exactly. Which can also be very efficient, right? Because when I want to focus on something that needs to be done quickly, it's better than being
LondonMentor: [00:42:06] A table with five six people. But on the other, it has these cons Let's say no. Overall, the culture is not. I wouldn't say the culture is bad for sure is not as I used to read and hear on the web, there's not a hierarchy, deep hierarchy level.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:28] But of course, people just. Sorry, I didn't understand that. There's not very hierarchical culture. Yeah.
LondonMentor: [00:42:38] Just people work more. That's the way. And of course, it becomes more stressful because of that. I've seen a few cases of
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:42:47] Do you feel like the debt has forced you to stay a little bit longer? Or do you feel like, I guess, now that you're out and you have this job like you said, there's options for you. So even if you were to take a pay cut and go would make. One hundred and twenty pounds instead of two hundred, you're still fine, right? No, not definitely. So that is something that. Can you hear me better?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:43:08] Yeah. Hear you. Great. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. Hey, I think I lost you. No, I'm here. I can hear you. And I'm here. I think I lost you for a second. You hear me now. Yes, now I can hear. Yes, go ahead. Yeah. So I was just, yeah, I heard everything. Yeah, I was just saying that you could take a pay cut, right? And you theoretically and you still be fine with your interest payments. Yes, that's a that's a fair point. Let's say money has not
LondonMentor: [00:43:36] Been aside from this move where I had to to consider it has not been a major motivator in a way, as you say, where you once you are more than 100k plus not really making the margin of difference. So it's just a matter of finding the space you want to be in something that you see yourself because the next movie is probably the final one. Let's call it this way does never find any life, but it's something that I want to be sure is the space that is where I would like to grow.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:08] Have you started actually thinking about that? Have you actually started thinking, OK, I know you touched on the options, but do you want to like with for the listeners benefit? How are you thinking about those next options? Because you're how do you even have time to think you're working 90 plus hours a week managing like it's tough and there's a lot of pressure on you. You have pressure from your you. Now they're saying, Well, we don't spend any time with me. I'm sure it's
LondonMentor: [00:44:31] Just like,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:44:32] Yeah, that's got to go back in. You have the pressure from, you know, you have the debt still a large principal. So tell me, so what's factoring all your decisions? So given these will stay anonymous, I can be more open about it.
LondonMentor: [00:44:47] Yeah, I clearly like the P space and part of this move was to justify a further step. So I'm the way I think about it is I nearly I basically have two options. One option is go with the standard recruiting large cap that they do every year or so, compete with some junior associate analyst and so on. Likelihood very low. But still, I would have a hedge funds such as the typical bank capital and so on, where they like more consultant so I can play that angle and that angle or the easier route of going to a mid-market. I had an experience. There is actually fun. The difference is, I think it's quite a different job in a way. You're not in a big fund. Again, you are. No, you're a executor of a small piece in a mid cap. You can you can interact with manager more. You're definitely more exposed to the entire process. You're leading a bit more. So those were the consideration. Then I came to the conclusion that I will go for the first way. Reason being. If I want to be an investor long term, I'd rather start for a place where I'm exposed to typically the best management team, the best people out of the industry or different industries. So as a starting point, I am looking from for the large cap space. And again, we can we can have this conversation later on, but having quite a good traction and with different rounds, final rounds with big funds. So there is there is that space open. It's just that you had to fight a lot and it's very, very competitive. So we'll have a conversation later on and maybe we can ask this is going through. But those are the options that I told about.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:46:58] Yeah, I think it's a very good perspective. I think the middle market, especially middle market, once you start a family. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Because it tends to be a little bit more sleepy, a little bit more like as long as you're getting your work done. Yes, it's generally more flexible. It's you still are
LondonMentor: [00:47:18] Under a deal, but you generally do. Let's be honest. One deal per year, you might be it for more, for sure. But what I want to say is that a lot of the time it will depend on prospect on going to conference to meet expert on sourcing, and during those times, you can have more normal lifestyle. So that's something that young people again don't take into consideration. But once you get farther in your career, you understand how important it is to have a balance at some point.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:47:51] Yeah, tell me a little bit about any concern over how much, how much dry powder, how much liquidity there is out there, not liquidity, dry powder, basically to put to work. And these vintage funds, I mean, maybe now you're coming at the right time at the market meltdown, there'll be some good buying opportunities. That's a great. So it's something that you can't control, right? So if you want to go into that space, I'm always you should go and then you see you face the
LondonMentor: [00:48:17] Consequences. But you're right, probably unless there is a significant melt down. And then typically the new the vintage, if you look at the 2008 vintage was a good one, but the multiple now with so two factors, namely one multiple nowadays are insane. They came down a bit with the coronavirus, but in general it's not sustainable. Second factor financing is so easy and we knockoffs available to everyone. And maybe there's a third that goes as a consequence, which you mentioned is the dry powder. So fans push more and more investing in us that probably they wouldn't pay that much, but they need they'll be pressuring them. I gave you the money. I know that you are considerate, but I gave you the money to buy them right. So at some point you need to deploy that capital. So why? I've heard a lot of people,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:11] I feel like coming out of MBA is going to do their own search fund to go really low or lower middle market by
LondonMentor: [00:49:15] A company for two to five million
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:49:17] And try to get the returns themselves, rather than have much more of an impact operationally versus trying to go to, you know, go to a mega fund banking 2.0 work, give them work in the long hours, potentially get no carry or the carry becomes not even worth very much. But your timing could be perfect, actually. Let's see. Let's see how it plays out. Yeah. As everything dries up on Dell side for deals, you jump to the buy side where there's a lot of buying
LondonMentor: [00:49:45] Opportunities and then let's look at it in this way. Yeah, but definitely is a concern, like it's not something we can neglect. Yeah, and probably I believe there will be some concern because now that everyone is investing, we see hedge funds more tending to be. We see large cap going into small cap and the other way around. So everyone, there's so much capital, everyone everywhere. There will be some consolidation of some point, right? Nobody can be a winner in this market.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:50:17] Yeah. Well, except the entrepreneur is starting the businesses. So hopefully I've had I've had people come ask about Wall Street Oasis that are way too big for us. Like our minimum check is 20. I'm like, you guys were tiny. There's no way like if they're emailing me, you know, they're like they're searching through every little nook and cranny for any place to put money. Another winner? Wish. I wish we were a little bit bigger and I could get some insane valuation and next cycle, next cycle. Another big weakness our management team will
LondonMentor: [00:50:51] Sponsor driven assets I've seen recently sold a business in business service space where the CEO was at the second cycle of ownership
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:04] And the had something like a buyout like where they put in or they just have a significant interest. So they are basically. Sweat equity, plus a little bit of their own equity because it was part of the funding, the founding family, yeah. So you would imagine now
LondonMentor: [00:51:21] This company is not that big. We're talking about six hundred and twenty of obb, so it's not that big. And they were getting like just in this cycle beside the normal remuneration, their bonuses. We're talking about 30, 40 million of of sweat equity. So there they are, quite a winner if they're able to do a couple of cycles with fees like that. It's I would go to an island. Yeah, probably do this process all day long.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:51:53] Now you'd be you'd be bored for a while. You'd go back. You may not do banking, but you'd go back and do something, probably.
LondonMentor: [00:52:00] So anything
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:52:01] Else before we call it anything else you want to share with the listeners or advice you'd give to your younger self or kind of people looking to kind of follow in the footsteps? Um, I would say maybe if you're approaching, no
LondonMentor: [00:52:13] Matter whether it is B, whether it's banking consulting, I will say that typically you tend to have three areas where you are assessed, right? So you have, on one hand, the technical. And so, for instance, in banking, you have to prepare all your guides around there. You need to really understand the concept more than memorizing the definition. The way to assess a company, but doing a bit more your own work to understand really what you're talking about. Hmm. But that area is sometimes.
Overstated by people. People tend to over prepared do all the possible modeling, but in the end, I've done a lot of interview ended up with few offers, so would say. It's not the hardest part. It's something that you need to master, of course, but most of most likely the majority of people will be interviewing. A top firm will be very fluent on those technical questions. So it's not an area that you can strongly differentiate yourself. And then there is this second and third area as which people are sometimes neglecting. So why don't we define filter or behavior where it's not just about the personality fit, but it's trying? You know, try to understand those soft skills by really nailing down on question around what you've done in the past, your CV and so on. And in the end, in those 30 minutes when our conversation, that's an important part. The person, it's like you, right? You need to answer, right? But they need to like you. And then the third is probably the third. There is probably the I would call market knowledge. So knowing exactly about the firm you're interviewing, knowing the transaction, knowing the market, being able to have a conversation about the dry powers on and that can only is not something you can prepare in two weeks. You need to start reading newspaper guides, talking to professional in the industry, significant ahead of time. Inform your own view about the market, about the macroeconomic and environment and so on. So if I can give an advice, the last two section, at least as important, if not the first one, and people tend to always spend more time on the first.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:30] Oh yeah, everyone's panicked about the technicals and then they think they have a
LondonMentor: [00:54:34] Very good,
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:54:36] A very good answer to why investment banking or, you know, or the market, and they actually don't realize that their answer is very mediocre to poor. Yeah. Cookie cutter. And it's not genuine and it's by the hurt by. They learn by heart. All the definition of, yeah, investment banking. And that's it. No, not the way it works. Yeah. And you know, even our courses, we give sample answers and I sometimes struggle to think, is that really the best way to go? I almost feel like, I mean, you need to put a framework at some point, right? I feel like maybe even doing this maybe thing just having this conversation of
LondonMentor: [00:55:10] Actually having an audio
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:13] Of what it's what a good answer sounds like, because it's not just it's not just what you say, it's really the delivery on how you say it. They can make how you say how a massive difference on the impression and on the
LondonMentor: [00:55:25] On how genuine it sounds and how not. Definitely, definitely just the same way as you explain a technical. You can explain our technical concept in a very structured way or in a completely messy way and saying this exactly same things, but the outcome will be completely different. So that's a that's a fair point. Yeah, it's interesting anyways.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:46] Well, thank you so much in London, mentor for making this appearance and pleasure. We'll definitely probably have you back on at some point, maybe in a few years. Once you've made some transitions, then.
LondonMentor: [00:55:57] Absolutely. Let's keep in touch and thank you for having me.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:55:59] Thanks so much, man. Appreciate it. Bye bye. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick at Wall Street Oasis dot com. And till next time.
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