MBB offer vs. life? adivce?
Hi WSO,
I've greatly appreciated looking through all your forums, thanks for all the help in making me pursue consulting.
So I have an offer from MBB at the associate level (PhD), mostly going to do energy, mining, and government work, beginning September 2012.
My wife is wondering: honestly, how much travel/hours to expect? What is your experiences? Is it a home ruiner?
Should I not pursue it, and try to slog it out in academia?
Are there exit opportunities in North American or European government (UN, resource policy) or academia, or are the exit ops primarily corporate? I am excited about the job, but can only see myself doing it for 5 years or less, with family on the way, and want to make sure I can do something I want to do afterwards, and am not too pigeon-holed.
Thanks kindly for any advice - and I hope to return the favor one day!
I dont know how strong MBB is in energy, in fact I think that's their weakest industry. Unless the firm is strong in a certain industry, expect the exit ops to suck. As for travel, starting out the expectation is travel aggressively, my friends at McKinsey are on the road m-thurs every week without fail, unless you get locally staffed.
You will be gone Mon-Thursday.
And in my MBB days as an analyst (pre-MBA) i travelled pretty extensively too. One time was stuck for 3 mos in eastern TN, that was the impetus for me to quit that hellish lifestyle and go back to school....
Hmmm, okay - I can deal with the travel M-Th, but 3 months in eastern TN sounds horrible. socola2003, did you go home Friday to Sunday?
How long does one have to stay at MBB to go somewhere? Is it 4 years, 2 years, 1 year? I've heard of people staying for only 6 months....what do these people do afterwards?
Thanks again!
People stay at MBB until they figure out what they really want to do. For Bschool grads, MBB is like Bschool after Bschool. Your exits become more limited the longer you stay since you'll have no real operational knowledge and you're more of an adviser than an actual do-er. So, try it out!
Congrats!
again, is your MBB strong in energy? Mine was not, we only had a couple of partners and most of the time they were doing a shitload of BD with no signed engagements. I was a young and I tend to think stud back then so I was always flex flying around. you can work in the offices Fri or work from home depending on your EM.
If your group is strong in energy then you can leave to industry after a few yrs, it's up r out anyway they'll fire you if you dont perform to standards
First, to clear something up: socola2003, MBB is actually very strong in energy. Or, at least the M part of MBB. Not sure about the other two. To be specific, McK is strong in oil and gas. A lot of the partners in the Houston office focus on oil and gas.
Second, to get to mathwhiz's questions.
If you are not interested in being away for that long, just tell the staffing team you don't want to do international engagements. There is a large enough pool of people who think such engagements are exciting that you'll never be "forced" to do one.
Also, if you want to minimize travel, choose to work in industries that are concentrated in your local area (e.g., financial services in NYC, tech in SFO, energy in Houston, pharma in New Jersey, etc.). If you're in the MW, this is tougher, as there isn't really a "core" industry in the MW. There is a little of everything.
- Mon: 7am - 11pm or midnight (7am flight, so you're waking up at 5am or something), with a break for dinner - Tue/Wed: 8:30am - 11pm or midnight, with a break for dinner - Thu: 8:30am - whenever your flight lands (typically a 5-6pm flight back home, so getting home 8-10pm) - Fri: 9am - 5pm, with maybe only 4 hours of real work happening during that time (lots of socialzing in the office) - Weekends: very project dependent, but I probably only worked one weekend a month on average, typically less than 4 hours total on that weekend (caveat: some people are worry-warts and do email each Sunday night; I would avoid this if possible - it ruins your Sunday evening)
Things that can make what I wrote above become much worse: - Being on a private equity due diligence engagement - Whenver it is the night or two before a progress review with the senior clients and your work isn't done yet
Anyway, the point is, you can work there for two years and land a great exit opp. While most are coprorate, that is largely self-selection. Most people will be making around ~$200k all-in (base + bonuses) at that stage, so they don't want to go to a lower-paying government job with less financial upside. BUT - it does happen. One person I worked with left after 3 years to work at the small business administration.
Most of the people who go to NGOs like the UN are the analysts (pre-grad degree). But I'm sure you could go there if you wanted to / were qualified (ie, your PhD is in something relevant to the work they do). Certainly all three firms have great contacts at these organizations who could help you out.
I recommend you take the job (much better than the first few painful years of academia, I have to imagine), do it for 2-3 years, try to get staffed locally to spend time with your wife, then bounce to a cool exit opp. Good luck!
Dagwood's got the lifestyle down pat. Strength in Energy is going to be key, see who the partners are in the office for which you have an offer. My hours are almost always between 55 and 75 every week...that's a big range, I know. But above 75 is where you start sacrificing weekends, going to be after 1-2 AM, etc...and that gets uglier. I imagine that oil, gas and mining clients are located in less interesting places, so the travel could be to less sexy places, but it really doesn't make a ton of difference, as long as you have a decent hotel with room service, it's all mostly the same.
I know plenty of people leaving for non-corporate jobs, definitely surprised me how common it was, actually.
Dagwood and Peter - Thanks for the great insight on lifestyle and exit ops.
I can do 55-75 hours, that's doable for a few years if I get home on weekends. Any advice for getting staffed locally?
Two more questions: Did you guys find that your year-end bonuses met the "up to" values? Was anyone disappointed?
How well does the McK "internal project market" allow you to choose your work? Or at the associate level, are you really just stuck doing the work your office finds?
Thanks again - you guys rule.
You need to speak with the consultants you meet at sell days. Seriously, if at this point in the process you're not certain about lifestyle - you really haven't been doing your due diligence.
That being said - MBB is not really a bonus culture at the lower ranks. BAs and Associates receive minimal bonuses. It doesn't kick in until partner levels.
Staffing (at McK) at least, is a feudal society. (Think I've actually posted this once before...) Despite the global staffing model (which technically exists), partners basically have their preferred team of EMs, associates and BAs, and prefers to staff the same people over and over. Doesn't mean you'll be working with the same partner for your entire tenure, but staffing decisions is more based on who you've worked with before and who wants to work with you than any other factor. If you've been recruited into a specific industry focus or practice, you're very likely to be 80% staffed within that practice.
@freeloader: I don't think MBB "is not really a bonus culture at the lower ranks". I absolutely agree that the bonuses are substantially lower than finance (which you mostly read about on this website), but in absolute terms, the bonuses at MBB are really good.
Actually, I should clarify that: bonuses for post-MBA associates (McK) / consultants (Bain) are really good. Pre-MBA analysts receive very small bonuses. To be specific, a 1st year post-MBA at my MBB could expect to receive a bonus of $20-40k depending on performance. That is definitely not "minimal". Obviously this depends on the year, how the company did, etc. Also, if you're a poor performer (not average - I really do mean poor), it can be lower. Finally, the companies sort of screw you by not giving you a bonus for 18 months. Let's say you graduate from your MBA in May and start work in July. You typically don't get a bonus that December - you have to wait until the next December, until you've worked there a full year. Not sure why they do this.
Also, the base comp increases quickly. This isn't a bonus, but it is a comp accelerator. I think they're offering associates around $140k base this year. You can probably expect a 10-15% base comp increase next year. Of course, your bonus also becomes higher because it is calculated off of this higher base.
Again, these figures aren't so impressive to the i-bankers on this site, but are great in real terms.
I also disagree with freeloader's perspective on staffing. During my three years at MBB, I completed around 15 engagements (give or take). I only worked with the same partner on two of those engagements (and that was by choice, because they were both in Europe and I wanted the chance to get back to Europe to do the 2nd engagement).
I made it a point to work with different partners in different industries, and the staffing group allowed this. If you're a strong performer, it really is up to you more than you think (you just have to assert yourself, rather than passively allow yourself to be staffed). Finally, at my MBB, you aren't recruited into a specific focus or practice. The company wants you to be a generalist for the first 2-3 years so you build a broad-based skillset and have experiences that are applicable to many situations.
Perhaps freeloader and I had very different experiences, which is definitely possible. I know some people who, for example, found a partner they liked on their first or second project and chose to work with that person through the duration of their career (there are upsides to this, including deeper client relationships, faster promotion, and higher ratings b/c the partner is going to bat for you during reviews).
@mathwhiz: the staffing system works much better if you are assertive. The people who get crappy projects are those who either a are poor performers or b are passive in finding staffing opportunities. The key is to be assertive. For example, when my current project was winding down (i.e., had 2-3 weeks left), I would start reviewing the online staffing log of upcoming projects, emailing or speaking to partners I liked (whether I had worked with them previously or not), etc., to get a sense of what projects were coming up. If something sounded cool, I would commit to it in advance, before the partner even had to go through the process of staffing the team. The partners like this because it is less work for them, and they were guaranteed a "strong performer" on their team. Obviously I liked it because I got to be on cool projects.
One caveat: I will acknowledge that there are times when you can't avoid a crappy project. For better or worse, some projects just kind of suck, but they still need to be staffed. Everyone should expect to bite the bullet once or twice during their 2-3 years at MBB. For me, I did staffing a favor and accepted a project in Minneapolis I had no interest in doing. It did, indeed, suck - but it earned me some favors with staffing that I could cash in later. So don't be the associate who acts lke the Golden Child and only does the sexiest projects in the sexiest locations. You can do yourself a favor by taking one for the team every so often.
Dagwood's posts are spot on based on my 6 months at MBB.
You can make your priorities known, and generally, the first few can be met.
I.e., you could say "I never want to travel" and that could happen. But, you might have to do an IT delayering in a boring industry.
I took a pre-MBA bonus of over $15K last year. It definitely met what was stated in my offer letter. I imagine the same holds true at the post-MBA level, assuming you are a strong performer.
In terms of staffing, I'm sure it varies a bit firm by firm, but I've tried to do exactly what Dagwood spells out. I've gotten out of doing a couple projects I really didn't want to because I was a strong performer, so I had 3 other partners I was talking to and wanted me on their teams. When it's slow and I know I'm coming up, I just take something that looks okay if not great, I haven't been on the beach for a year, and I don't want to chance restructuring a utility's IT department in Nebraska.
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Dagwood, thanks again for taking the time to explain how it really is to a newbie. When you say working with different partners, do you mean partners in the same office, or partners in other offices? I take it in Europe it was different partners, but did you often take projects in other north american offices, did you know the partners before hand or just cold call them them to do this?
@moofasa: why did you spend only 6 months there (or have you only been working for 6 mon)?
Thanks guys.
MBB Associate/Consultant here. A few thoughts come to mind.
1) From my observation, the energy/mining people seem to have some of the tougher travel situations. You will be on the ground Mon-Thurs but if you're going to some mine 3 hrs from the nearest "large" city that you have to connect twice to get to, it will be tough. In other words, travel Mon-Thurs has varying degrees of wear. Talk to as many people in that area is you can and ask them what their travel is like.
2) Also as it relates to travel: If you take this job, make sure your wife is bought in. Not bought in as in having a peripheral understanding and willing to "give it a try". She needs to really understand the upsides and advantages of this job (there are many) as well as the downsides (there can be many). Communication with her is key and it starts now. This is the difference between this job working well for you and being a "home ruiner".
3) Exit Ops are important but don't focus on that too much right now. If you're MBB you really shouldn't have to worry about exit ops. You just need to worry about learning as much as you can and figuring out what exit ops you want while you're there. Your view of what you want to do after MBB will likely change when you're there.
Good luck!
As a single, 23-year-old dude, all I can say is that the older you are and the more tied down you are, the tougher the travel will be to deal with.
I travel Mon-Thurs from between two major hub cities (no bumblefuck towns) and the transient lifestyle is starting to get to me.
Since you're not coming in as entry-level, make sure you're willing to live this lifestyle for 2+ years. Even more important, make sure your wife understands.
Thanks guys, whew! My wife would be FAR happier if we didn't have to move. It would be easier for her to deal with me being gone M-Th 48 weeks a year. All her family and friends are in our home city. So last question: If my wife wants to stay in our city, do you think its possible to commute in and out of a different city than where your office is? It is a 1 hour flight.
Is this too special a request to make before I start the job? I know some people personally who do it at the EM level, but I am not sure if they work from home on Fridays or they fly into the office on Fridays and then fly home Friday afternoon. That would be a little hectic. I understand this will vary a little between offices - but do you think I can make this request?
Again, take this with a grain of salt given the differences of experiences on the board, since this is different from Dagwood's experience, but I've definitely seen a fair amount of junior and senior consultants live in different cities from home office for personal reasons (and have done so personally as well) at my firm. The only time you'll ever be in the home office is on Fridays, and as mentioned before, those are generally socializing days rather than hard work days.
Basically, if you roll into the office about once a month to show up and have some face time, you'll have your bases covered. Most people who did it were within driving distance, so it was more of a drive in early in the morning, head home at night sort of deal. If you are really far away and have to fly in, logistically it just makes more sense to fly-in on Thursday night from your client site, stay the night (use your points or crash with a buddy in town), and either fly back Friday night or stay the weekend in town. Another option, especially if you aren't in a major city, is just to rent or share a cheap apt to maintain an address in your home city, and spend most of your time at home.
In general, my firm offered significant flexibility on travel lifestyle. Most partners realize the difficulty of sustaining a travel-heavy lifestyle once you have family and children, and will accommodate your travel plans as much as possible.
Also, as an aside on the topic of mining - those tend to be the worst travel engagements, since by definition mining clients will be in undesirable locations. I lucked out and served a mining client within the corporate office, but I know others have been in field offices and the mines themselves, meaning travel to Australia, Dakotas, etc.
From a pure work perspective, you can easily make this work. You show up at the client on Monday and leave on Thursday....your team won't care where you came from or where you go.
In your first year or two (based on my MBB) it may make a difference if your home office (where you're based) values how involved you are in office events, etc. or if the partners you want to work with are all around that office. At least from what I've observed, getting ahead at an MBB isn't solely about doing a kickass job on the project. It's that + your 'extracurriculars' that gets you noticed.
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