Prop trading

Quick question: Which prop trading / market making shops would be worth turning down top BB (JPM/GS) trading offer for? Not going to be more specific, but given my educational background, I think I would fit in better at prop trading/ market making shop... (obviously a much higher barrier to entry, but I still want to aspire to something better) Current list (in no particular order): Jane Street, Five Rings Capital, Citadel (Securities), DRW, Optiver, SIG, HRT, Akuna(?) Are there other firms (US or UK based) that fall into this list whereby it would be silly for me/anyone to accept a BB offer

10 Sep 2021

I'm one month in operations and I'm falling asleep at work; it's not intellectually stimulating. I recently graduated college with a finance degree and could not find a job for the life of me. A little nepotism landed me a job as an operations analyst in NYC, but I want out. I want to become a trader of some sort, but I don't know what to prepare in order to "re-brand" myself as someone who is capable of trading. Also, I don't know if I should work for a year and then look elsewhere, or if I should rigorously focus on getting out because I heard I'd be "branded" as an operations person which I

26 Jun 2021

Trying to figure out if pursuing a professional masters degree from Cornell in applied statistics is a good idea if the goal is to work for prop shop/quant hf (think jump, citadel, virtu, SIG, akuna, optiver, imc, etc). also wondering how it would compare to the financial engineering masters programs that are similar in length to the cornell applied statistics program. I know a lot of these shops recruit from top undergrad programs directly. That being said, Im curious to see if anyone who works in the prop trading/market making space has seen hires come from professional masters programs like

22 Mar 2021

Hello guys, I am currently an agricultural commodity trader at ABCD type of firm. I am thinking of getting into the prop trading industry but I am not sure if my background is a fit as commodity trading is quite different. I am also not from a quantitative background. I have seen that most people have recently applied to notable prop firms like Jane Streets, Flows, Optiver etc, but they seem to be the most CHALLENGING to get in as well. I also believe that they prefer someone from a quantitative background. Would like to ask if there is any prop trading firms with a commodity trading desk? How

14 Mar 2021

Hi, I am a senior UW Madison student, with a 3.4 GPA in industrial engineering (would be 3.7 if not for freshman year). I want to be a prop trader, in fact I want to be the best trader in the country. I have studied trading for 3 years, and have good stats. My expected value is about 1R per trade, or ~0.25% on a 1ish beta stock. My win rate is about 40%. I primarily trade price action, and focus on horizontals. I consider myself pretty smart, my ACT score was 34. Due to coronavirus, I was searching for spring engineering internships but all of the ones I was interviewing for were canceled. My

05 Aug 2020

Title says it all. They both seem like great firms. Optiver sounds more committed to having their internship in person despite COVID and the internship also looks very pragmatic - I think I would learn a lot from it. But Jane Street seems like it has a less toxic culture and is more prestigious with better pay. I'm interested in the potential implications for full time conversion as well. Does anyone have knowledge or advice?

08 Dec 2020

The only ones I know of opening up soon are Optiver and Flow in August recruiting for May 2022 graduate dates. Are there any other top/mid-tier firms that have opened up for May 2022? Thanks in advance!

01 Jun 2021

Warning Long Post Ahead Hello WallStreetOasis, I am a recent graduate of Hofstra University with a bachelors of science in mathematical finance 3.4 GPA trying to get into prop trading even though I am aware that all odds are against me. This is my first post in WSO and it is going to be a long one. Hopefully, at least one person can help me out because I really need it. Little bit about myself I am 22 years old graduated college recently May 2017. Originally started off as a finance major like every other business student because I knew I wanted to get into business but didn't

06 Sep 2017

Not in real estate, currently a math student Theoretically, is it realistically even possible for one person to start there own prop trading firm? I understand this would mean identifying a strategy, algo development, backtesting, going live, managing risk, and continuous research. Lets assume AUM is tiny (~$5mm). Would it even be possible for one person to do all of the above?

21 Jan 2021

I'm in my second year studying Maths at a Target Uni in the UK and I need advice in which one of these two internships to go for: The first internship is in the Markets Division (Cross-Asset) at a Tier 3 Investment Bank in London. The second internship is as a Trading Intern at a high-frequency trading firm in Amsterdam. I'm really looking for something that's going to be more quantitative/mathsy and so it'll make sense for me to choose the second over the first, however there's a few things holding me back. Firstly, because the first bank set an exploding deadline, I've already had to accept

12 Dec 2020

NOTE: If you have seen a problem before, please don't solve it. This is a thread for posting logic/probability ques, to help people prep for trading interviews. If you have an interesting question that you have heard or thought of, post it to give people practice. I'll post at least one per week. Difficulty (1-5, 5 being hardest). If it is labeled 6...you should probably move on. Question #1 (2) You have a bag with 5 red balls, 3 blue balls. You pull balls out of the hat one at a time. If you get a blue ball, you put it back. If you get a red ball, you remove it. How many draws will you make in expectation until all RED balls have been removed. SOLUTION: qtrade Question #2 (4)

09 Nov 2010

I know it's quite a random question but I have some friends that switched to Algo Trading from engineering roles. They've told me how they're trying to find market inefficiencies and capitalize on that. However, isn't arbitrage not possible if markets are efficient? Don't you think that, when algo trades make up about 95% of total trades, markets are going to be quite efficient? I guess my question is: once most trades are algorithmic, will there still be arbitrage?

28 Aug 2020

List, closed, thank you all =) Within 48 hours, we had 130+ applicants and 5 mentors. --Using this thread for a "What do you want to learn/What would help you?" thread. We're going to invite recruiters, MDs, VPs, to speak to mentees, do resume reviews, share contacts, etc. Very excited for this class. -- Why: This year WSO helped me out. (http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/the-same-st…) I want to return the favor. Summary: This is a long-term mentorship/investment for the duration of 6 months. MENTORS 1. James (wolfy) 2. Jon 3. Andrew WSO MENTORS 4. monty09 5. anyonewantsjob

22 Nov 2010

Hi, this is my first post so any help is appreciated. I am a Junior at UW Madison and currently have a 3.3 GPA and am majoring in industrial engineering and Econ. I have been studying trading for two years now, and this summer (did not have a sophomore summer internship), I finally became profitable, earning 7% over a 30 day period. I consider myself pretty smart, I got a 34 on my ACT. I am extremely interested in becoming a professional prop trader. I know my GPA is a bit low (personal problems freshman year) and my school is not a target. I was wondering will being able to trade profitable

09 Sep 2019

It's time someone at least attempted to shed some light on this group. This is RBC (Royal bank of Canada; Canadian equivalent of GS)'s prop trading desk. The group is apparently very impressive/profitable and even after the financial crisis, when banks were pressured to offload their prop desks, RBC held onto the group while other Canadian banks all yielded to the pressure. Anyone know much about this group, what type of strategies they run and most importantly... how one can attempt to get in!? Edit: guess I was partially incorrect. The unit accounts for 1.5% of RBC's total revenue and one

06 Feb 2018

After about five years in S+T at various banks and buyside shops, I am starting up a hedge fund based in NYC and focused on Asian markets. Most of the securities we trade are OTC equity and currency derivatives. We commenced trading with 10 million usd in partner capital and have a lot on our plate between raising investment assets and monitoring the markets during odd hours of the day. Basically we are trying to think of decent ways to find junior traders for helping out with the day-to-day tasks. These would range from scanning/printing trade confirmations to going on lunch runs to doing

25 Mar 2012

I'm going to graduate from a college that's not even worth mentioning (not even in top 100 colleges) soon and am looking to get into prop-trading. I have self experience in the market. I started individually trading about a year ago but have blown up many portfolios already. I will be only getting a BA in economics. Is there a way for me to break into the Prop-trading business? If so, any advice on how to do it? I love the market and it would be a dream job for me. It'd be great to even get junior trading assistant positions or ANY entry-level position, but I have no idea where to start

23 Jul 2018

I'm wondering which prop trading firms pay the best salaries for traders. I want to go into prop trading after college, and I want to decide which firms to focus on in my recruiting. I understand that the more reputable prop firms pay a base salary along with a percentage of PnL. Which firms give the highest compensation for traders? Prop Trading Firms Salary Our users shared that salaries for prop trading firms are in the $100 K range; however, often times candidates will negotiate their salary with the firm. [quote PeterMullersKeyboard]You should focus more on just getting into a decent shop

05 Sep 2015

So I wanted to give some people hope. I will keep my firm names anonymous, but I want to give people help. I am just going to have some random points, and want people to ask anything or even state if you disagree so we can get a nice discussion going. My Profile: I graduated in 2011 with a technology degree and economics degree from a non-target school (NYC area). I graduated with less than a 3.0. My Career Progression: 1st Year Operations BB Bank - Automated my job -> Promoted to group of my choice (Couldn't land IB, and glad I never did it (hours insane and pay is better on buy-side - if your good) - but IB is still a good place to start though if you can break in. I chose the internal hedge fund - which was disbanded in 2013 from Dodd-Frank)

26 Apr 2014

I'm currently an undergrad attending a target public school and have been seeing lots of trading opportunities being posted on our job boards (DE Shaw, SIG, Jane Street, etc). I'm currently majoring in mathematics and information systems with around a 3.7 GPA and am seeking a full time role. By background I'm not that financy - I've previously interned at a VC several years back. I wanted to hear insights on what it takes to break through into trading from GPA requirements, interview prep, to books that I could read to help me along the process. Additionally, how big does networking play a

21 Jul 2018

Hey everyone, I am very new to this website. Just want to preface this post by saying that I do not feel as if I deserve a job at these top quant trading firms, but I would like to think I have what it takes to make to the first stage... My situation is: - Education: Attend UK target (i.e. Oxbridge) and study STEM major (not mathematics, but still quantitative); good exam results and strong ranking in the year-group; take competitive/hard(er) courses (not the easiest ones on offer) - Academic/research: my university strictly prohibits students from joining research groups (although have tried

10 Sep 2021

I realize I am a huge outlier with the current job market and economic climate, so I figured I'd post a topic and let people throw their questions at me regarding what I did to get in the position I'm in right now. I will try to avoid answering questions that could potentially identify me. Some background: I am graduating in May, and am a senior Math major (with CS minor, but I've taken as many CS classes as I have math) from, let's say, one of {Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Princeton, Yale). I grew up going to a public high school in the southeast.

07 Mar 2011

So after the crisis, people got scarred and started spinning off the prop desks at BBs, or so thats what we heard. I was talking with a Investment banking MD, who also enjoyed trading and to my surprise he told me that there are still BB prop desks, in Canada, toronto for example, they still exist, regulation didn't restrict prop trading, they simply increased the cost of trading therefore making it unfeasible for the bad trading desks to continue trading, but prop trading still happens at banks. So here are my questions, 1. Does anyone know if Bulge Brackets still have prop desks in US?

28 Mar 2012

Hi guys, I recently received an offer from Bridgewater associates for their investment engineer role and Peak6 Investments for their Trading associate role. Both offers are really good in terms of money but that's not really my concern. I was wondering if you guys could weigh up Bridgewater vs prop trading in general. It would be great to get some outside opinion on this as I am really unsure about which route to go. Bridgewater seems like it will be a great name on my resume but I am very unsure about the culture and if I will be a good fit there. PEAK6 was really nice though. It seemed like

01 Nov 2015

I have a question before sending my resume to a few prop shops. Throughout the last 3 or so years, while in school, I have been involved in the stock market - trading equities in the last 2 years and equity derivatives in the last 9 months or so. Last year was a rough year for my portfolio - this year was also challenging, as I have been fighting the Fed for all of 2012. My understanding of derivatives is very indepth and am more than familiar with derivative trading strategies.

24 Aug 2012

Could you guys tell me a little bit about how market making works? To my knowledge, market makers basically make money off the spread between bid and offer. So when a market maker sees a bid that is slightly above an offer, does he buy the security, actually hold it for a short period of time (a few seconds) and then sell it to the bidder? 1. Can the market not operate without the market makers? That is, can't the traders just trade securities among themselves without the spread, without going through a market maker? 2. Also, do market makers have to pay commission to the brokers? If so, wouldn't that make the spread even greater and disadvantage the traders into an even more of a negative sum game?

04 Aug 2010

So I'd like to look at this hypothetically as a potential plan. I am currently trading during the days and refining my trading strategy/niche. I'm still working nights, but my plan to put $5,000 as risk capital (I'm willing to lose) into an online prop trading firm and trade very conservatively and be hyper aware of risk management and position sizing. In other words I'm not that green to just blow it.

16 Dec 2014

I applied Trading Assistant Program at PEAK6 and was asked to complete an assessment test. I am wondering anyone has any idea of what it is. Appreciate it. What is PEAK6 Investments? PEAK6 is an investment firm located in Chicago which focuses on capital management, clearing services, investment with strategic advice, and sports venture capital. Learn more about trading at PEAK6 in a video provided by the firm.

04 Oct 2012

Although this is my first post, I've been a lurker here for 5+ years. I'm in my last year studying mathematics at one of Oxbridge as an undergraduate, looking to apply in London for full time positions as (1) a junior trader at a proprietary firm (not arcade), or, failing that, (2) an analyst in any financial firm requiring comparable quantitative skills. I was wondering if anyone could provide a list of prop shops or quant hedge funds looking to hire new graduates in London. I've already done a bit of research on my own, going through (1) Google, (2) my university careers website, (3) the

19 Sep 2016

I'm looking at a few different FT offers right now. Some prop trading, and some in other industries. I was wondering if any FT prop traders can talk about their job with no bullshit. How competitive is it within the firm, or within the industry? What is the range of possible pay opportunities? (If you don't mind me asking, how much do you make, or give a rough range? and how long have you been doing it? ) If you suck, do you get fired or just get delegated to menial jobs? What do you love/hate about it? What kind of people have you seen fail and what kind have you seen succeed? Thanks a lot.

10 Nov 2011

Hi, I am a current senior at an Ivy League school studying Physics and interned last summer at Deutsche Bank in S&T. I have an offer to return for full-time in FICC trading and am trying to decide between that and prop trading. The places I am interviewing / have received offers from are Jane Street, DRW, and SIG. What is the best decision between these for a long-term career in trading? Currently my top choice is JSC however I am still in the interview process for them, and I am undecided between DB, DRW, and SIG. I would rather live in NYC than Chicago or Philly, however I would go to whichever place offers the best career prospects. Thanks for the help

26 Oct 2011

I'm sure you've all heard of the Dodd-Frank Reform Act and more importantly, the Volcker Rule that's a part of it. So, I'd like to get some thoughts from people who believe the Volcker rule will go some ways in preventing another financial crisis by limiting the amount of risk banks can take and those who believe either that the Volcker rule is too watered down or prop trading wasn't to blame in the first place.

29 Mar 2011

Arizona threatens to cut off power to LA. An Arizona state official has threatened to shut off Los Angeles' Arizona-based electricity supply in retaliation for the city's decision to boycott the state. Arizona Corporation Commissioner Gary Pierce told L.A. Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa in a letter that 25 percent of L.A.'s electricity comes from Arizona, and he'd "be happy to encourage Arizona utilities to renegotiate your power agreements." "I am confident that Arizona's utilities would be happy to take those electrons off your hands," Pierce wrote to Villaraigosa (PDF). "If, however, you find that the City Council lacks the strength of its convictions to turn off the lights in Los Angeles and boycott Arizona power, please reconsider the wisdom of attempting to harm Arizona's economy." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100519/pl_ynews/y…

19 May 2010

If one were to end up at an average prop trading firm, would it be hard to transition into a more prestigious one later? Or would there be no point on moving if you succeed at your current firm? To my knowledge, the most prestigious prop firms deal with options market making while the lesser known ones make directional bets on equities. So would it be considered irrelevant skill sets? I have also read that some partners at the most prestigious prop firms make 7-8 figures a year. How is this possible? Is it all from market making or do they take huge directional bets? How much money do they

14 Oct 2010

Hi everyone! I need to decide between two internship offers: one for trading at a fairly well-known prop shop in Chicago - think CTC/DRW/Optiver - and one in the Master's/PhD risk management division at American Express in NY. Amex group could be anything from consumer card risk to corporate underwriting. My goal is to end up in S&T at a BB doing trading or research (would even settle for market risk). If you can help: -Is American Express a good name on the resume in general? -Which spot opens more doors for full-time recruiting? -Networking: Does the ability to grab drinks with my BB

06 Mar 2012

Consider entry-level quant position for a fresh PhD student, how to compare the career perspectives of the following three categories: 1) famous hedge funds (e.g., Two Sigma/DEShaw/Citadel) 2) relatively established prop shops (e.g., Getco, Hudson River Trading, Jump Trading) 3) new shops (Eladian Partners, Teza, Headlands Technologies) If one is lucky to get some offers from category 1) or 2), should she still consider category 3)? Advice on either certain category in general or any specific firm above will be great! Thanks!

14 Nov 2011

only posting here because I love the complete honesty of the responses that these forums provide. i went from trade support (middle office role) at a BB to a start up trading firm/hedge fund so that I could get out of Operations. i initially came in as a junior trader (a prop shop feel), then i chose to move into an analyst role. i learned a lot about the markets so no matter what people say i do not regret making this move over from a BB.

03 May 2011

Most of the firms are now in both Chicago and New York. There are a few types. Before getting to the types it is worth noting prop trading in reality it is more market making than speculation these days. 1. HFT- to get into these firms you basically need a PhD in Computer Science. They are automated market making firms that hire PhDs to build algos to make markets. You get a salary and a bonus. You spend your time tinkering with the "market microstructure" models to try to figure out how to get filled on the bids and offers (execution is king, the actual algos are not exceptional). It is fast becoming a nuclear arms race of technology that costs so much most are ducking out. So expect a slew of engineers and other computer geniuses to be out there looking for work soon.

17 Dec 2014

Hi I got a prop trading job offer at a relatively unknown shop and also a temp job at a Bulge Bracket. Which is better for me? Prop Trading. Base: US$20k, Bonus: 50-70% depending on performance, the better the performance the higher the %. Niche: Market neutral strategies on Fixed income and commodity derivatives. Bulge bracket temp job... paid on a day by day basis. But if this is added up, the base for this is more than the base in prop trading.

02 Feb 2012

Hey everyone, I've been looking into Philadelphia Proprietary Trading Group, but I can't seem to find many reviews or anything about them besides whats on their site. If anyone has any experience with them especially about their training program with new traders I'd appreciate the feedback. Looking for details on anythign from structure/payouts, autonomy, upfront capital contribution, leveraging, etc... Thanks

20 Jul 2012

Have already browsed search function and had a few additional questions about First New York. Would love if any of you could give me more info/confirm what I've heard as some info on site seems dated. 1. How many assistant traders per class/how many of those get promoted to trader? 2. During the trial trading period, have heard starting bp is 500k? Can someone confirm? 3. How long is trial trading period/what is considered a good enough percent return to grad to trader? 4. How much classroom work is there during training? Any tests besides Series ones? 5. Assuming good performance, what is max cap given? If they only have $350mm and 200-230 traders, it seems like only $1.5mm per trader, which can't be right.

21 May 2011

Fellow monkeys, I am looking to trade options for a living, and I'm looking for prop trading firms that allow you options trading, I'm not looking for leverage as I know there is no leverage in Options trading, I just want the ability to get out of the Pattern Day Trading rule without needing 25K in my account. I'm looking to start with about 5-10k, I know some of you might say that such amount is not enough to make a living, but right now I feel I could make about three to five hundreds dollars a day, besides, I moved back home, so I'm set with no rent, also I'm single and no kids. I have been paper trading for about 2 years, and I have indulged into a bit of trading from time to time during the past 4 years. By the way, this is my first post, as I am a lurker here.

09 Jan 2013

PREVIOUS EPISODES: NSFW Episode 1: QE2, Housing, Commodities Here's the link to Bill Gross's November outlook: Run Turkey, Run And to the books we recommended this week: Nature's Metropolis: Chicago and the Great West and The Servile State Finally, here is a direct link to the video along with the Embed Code for use on your own site. If you're going to use the video, don't be evil. A link back to WallStreetOasis.com is the least you can do: http://wetoku.com/Eddie_Braverman/2J3 We'd love to hear any comments you have below. Have a great Sunday, guys.

31 Oct 2010

Hi all, I was recently let go from a top proprietary options trading firm (if you know prop trading, it's top 4) after about 1.5 years and am looking for advice on moving on.

26 Jul 2011

We all know that Wall Street is extremely competitive as it is. There are people fighting for summer associate internships at less known banks to gain enough experience in their sophomore year, to then apply for a junior summer associate position at a company like Lazard, (Investment banking wise.) We also know that Investment bankers in their first year, usually make $80k-$150k, plus a bonus etc. The salary is capped after a while, for example you won't be able to make $50 Million in one year, by working your way up. Once you reach $500k, people usually move for bigger roles or just stay to

19 Jul 2017

Hey guys, I'm undergoing the application/interview process for summer internships for both S&T at big banks, as well as trading at prop shops. I anticipate to receive offers from both. So I need help making a decision what to do this summer. As far as I can tell, the key differences are: Prop shop: Hours might be better, depending on which firm. Very casual dress since there are no client relationships. Casual, easygoing culture. Flat organizational structure, no ranks, less so than with a bank. Trading the firm's own money instead of other people's money means more 'intense' work. BB: Appears more prestigious. Am I correct in this assumption? And this may come with more exit opportunities (although I realize S&T doesn't usually offer terribly great exit opps overall).

25 Jan 2011

Hey guys I'm looking to get a leverage from Prop trading firms. I have about $11k. Junior student in Finance major with nearly 5 years of personal trading experience (small trades) and market observations. I developed few strategies also working on an automated trading strategies. I can't day trade with my 11k and am not making as much because I don't get much leverage from my discount broker. If I join any prop trading firm and get 10x leverage will I able to day trade? Technically I'll have 100k to trade I'm located in NYC What are easy prop trading firms to join. I don't wanna pay training

27 Jan 2016

I am due to graduate and have three offers that I am tossing up between. The three firms are Optiver, Vivienne Court Trading and JPMorgan. Both Optiver and VivCourt are Graduate Quant Trading roles in Sydney. JP Morgan is a Sales and Trading role in Asia. I am unsure of which one to select. For each firm, what will the comp be like? What will the work lifestyle be like, and what are my exit opportunities. Thanks in Advanced!

22 Feb 2021

Hi guys I have my final offers now and am choosing between 2. One is a business analyst role for Capital One in dc. The other option is working for a medium sized market making prop shop in nyc. The salary at the prop shop is obviously not as good, but it is good enough for me to survive through training. Capital One seems like the ideal company to work for. Lots of freedom and independence and great facilities. All in all a pretty lax lifestyle. That said, the business of credit cards seems a little boring to me. Also I dont know that i would rather live in dc than ny.

15 Nov 2011

Proprietary ("prop") trading is an industry that keeps itself under wraps and as a result, there has never been a great resource for candidates to learn about the industry and how to get past the interviews…. up until now! Wall Street Oasis presents the first guide on breaking into the prop trading industry covering topics which include: What a prop firm is, what types of prop shops there are, and how prop trading differs from Sales & Trading at a bank The truth behind much-debated questions such as compensation, the failure rate, and exit opportunities How to structure your job search and

30 Nov 2014