middle office to front office. whats the best strategy?
All
I graduated cum laude from a non-core school with a BS in Finance back in 2008. Got hired by a BB in their Operations program and was placed within a back office group for two years. Moved on to a middle office role in sept 2010 and have been there ever since. It will be about 5 years since I graduated college and I have still not been able to break into the revenue generating side of the business (sales/trading, IB, asset man. etc) despite busting my ass for my trading desk and networking alot over the years . At this point I am considering take CFA level 1 or heading to b-school full-time (obviously something at least top 20). which should I do? Would you recommend another path? I appreciate your help and insight. Thanks
The answer usually comes down to b-school or networking. Networking didn't work for you, so it looks like b-school is your best bet.
But I would only go back to b-school to break into i-banking right? Sales/trading don't really care about b-school, correct? By the time I am done with b-school, I will be 30 or 31 years old, would I even be hired as an Associate at that age? I am also not a fan of levering up for a 2 year vaca and thinking if I pass level 1 CFA I could at least get some front office interviews and hopefully break in that way. What do you guys think? Thanks for your help.
I have no idea tbh. If you want to S&T, ask this in the S&T forum.
I'm a 2008 grad so I sympathize. According to the WSJ, we graduated into the worst labor market in 25 years.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014241278873238646045790670300097259…
Regardless, I made the jump 3 years ago. Passed CFA Level 1, and that's all you need for interviews. Got fired for applying to B-School earlier this year.
Best of luck!
Top BB MO -> CFA -> FO? (Originally Posted: 10/15/2014)
Hey Guys,
Long time lurker first time poster. I interned this past summer at JPM/GS in the middle office and just signed the full time offer. I will be on either trading support/client services and was wondering if getting my CFA would be a good way to get into the front office. I've already passed level 1, and plan on taking level 2 in June of 2015. Would experience as in trade support/client services + a CFA be good credentials to make it to the front office as either trading the product I support or researching that product.
Thanks.
lol@got fired for applying to b school. what jerks, glad you're positive though. sounds like you're on a great track.
thanks
no, it's not
Are you going to be working closely with traders? If so it's possible, you could also apply to a smaller firm once you have some experience.
But I would only go back to b-school to break into i-banking right? Sales/trading don't really care about b-school, correct? By the time I am done with b-school, I will be 30 or 31 years old, would I even be hired as an Associate at that age? I am also not a fan of levering up for a 2 year vaca and thinking if I pass level 1 CFA I could at least get some front office interviews and hopefully break in that way. What do you guys think? Thanks for your help.
MO at BB to FO (Originally Posted: 06/05/2013)
I have an Masters degree from a top IVY league college and am currently interning at a BB in a MO role. What are my chances of jumping to a FO position for full time ?
Lots of discussions on this. Use the search box. Also, you have 'a' Master's degree.
Lol, my bad :D
Question about MO to FO (Originally Posted: 07/10/2015)
I just started a job in product control at a large bank out of undergrad and was wondering what the chances of moving to a FO position are and how I'd go about it. I feel like I should explain the position, because it's different than a lot of the product control descriptions I've seen here. I don't work at any particular product desk, I create a report of all the business lines that goes to the CEO, CFO, etc. I've heard that a lot of the MO to FO transitions from product control happen at specific desks when an opportunity arises, so I am worried that those chances won't be available since I won't be in frequent contact with traders. I'm open minded about FO positions, I just know I want to do more.
What do you want to do?
What FO area are you looking for? You can always move to a different MO position with more FO overlap to make the transition easier. Networking will definitely be important regardless.
MO to FO (Originally Posted: 08/22/2013)
I've been in a MO role for the past 2 years in Rates P&L.
Several openings in Asset Management that are near my group: ETF Research Analyst Quantitative Analyst Industry Analyst
Looking to aim my resume to target these rolls.
You have several mistakes in your bullet points and to be honest most of them are very awkwardly phrased.
Also, do you know how ridiculous this one sounds? "Leveraged advance Excel and VBA background to construct a time savings of at least 10% on every spread sheet encountered"
How are you going to quantify that for me? At LEAST 10% on EVERY spreadsheet? Really? You sat there and timed the process before and after your "improvements" for every single spreadsheet you worked on? If you're going to make crazy statements you better be ready to defend them.
Where is your GPA? I assume it's sub 3.0? If I'm wrong and it isn't below 3.0, I would include it to stop others from thinking that too.
Lucky for myself, my position was in such disarray that 10% time savings was quite feasible and in reality is skewed in the conservative direction. Evidence of backing this up will be readily available.
Walked into current roll and the amount of manual labor was ridic.
GPA is 3.2. I excluded it due to having some experience post graduation, didn't know if it was still necessary to include. Will throw that back in there.
Looking over other bullet points and rewording. I appreciate the time. Thanks Flake and HFer
Advice on Moving MO to FO (Originally Posted: 09/02/2015)
Hey guys,
So here is my story:
I interned for an asset manager for three years during my time at university (good southern school but not a target) and was unable to turn that into a full time offer (not due to performance but the structure of the firms pitch to clients). I started a job in the middle office at a MM bank in late July and have quickly realized I HATE my job and life. My current job focuses on supporting one of the trading desks, we're called trading assistants. The question I have for you guys is what are my options going forward. I see them as:
1) Start applying for jobs right now and leave the MO position off my resume.
2) Start applying to jobs with the MO position on my resume
OR
3) Wait until Jan/Feb of '16 and start applying to external jobs then with my MO position on my resume.
If I leave the MO position off my resume it would lead to a 3mo employment gap which I fear will be a hindrance but If I include it I don't want to be stuck in middle office operations for my whole life.
Thoughts?
End goal would be in research specifically credit research.
You've been working for about a month, you need to be patient. Why not crush your current role and move on to a full time trader? This is very possible at boutique and MM firms, I've seen plenty of people go from a TA or SA to a full time trading/sales role. Not as common at a large BB (though that can happen). Do you sit on the desk next to the traders? I am sure you'd be able to build relationships with them
Exactly as Bobb said. Why wouldn't you put it on your resume too? You work as a TA for two-three years then you can become a trader. From there, depending on how you do, you can relocate easily.
Going from MO to FO - is this possible? (Originally Posted: 07/21/2011)
Hi Guys,
I'm currently searching for a sales/trading job on a desk, but failing miserably. I have worked for two years as a consultant financial engineer, before going "native" and working the past 18 months as a MO product controller in an IB. My job is fine, but I'm itching to get to FO. I'm bored senseless running their P/L. However, there seems to be a glass wall between us.
Part of the problem is that I'm an english speaker in a swedish bank. Which is fine for everyday stuff, but everytime I've applied for a FO sales job, they tell me that despite my good CV, my language skills prevent me from getting the job. The traders aren't much more help. I have a pretty good relationship with the guys I work with, but positions come up so infrequently, and I feel again that by speaking only english, I'm going to be on the back foot.
I have been applying vigourously to IB's in London and Zurich, but get not so much as a telephone interview. I feel I'm doing something dramatically wrong.
Also, I'm 28. Surely I must be getting on a bit, to be a junior trader? Is there much hope for me once I hit 30?
You need to work on getting back to the UK or the US. But risk management/product control is a perfectly good career.
^ he pretty much nailed it. Seriously though, if they're saying that language is the main barrier, why not buy Rosetta Stone? How far are you willing to take this and what's your commitment level to making trader??
Agreed with UFO, nothing stopping you from learning the skills needed for the job (in this case language skills)
Yeah dude, learn swedish...can't be THAT hard...if I were going to work for a swedish company I would have started learning the language even before the first day of work.
Seems like if you fix the language thing, you'll have the job. This economy's tough dude, and will be for a very long time, especially the financial sector...that may be the only (or easiest) way to get to FO.
I am actually surprised you have not really picked up on it yet. Swedish is fairly easy. Just start listening to it...
Something not mentioned here is that a majority, in my experience, of these sorts of one-off openings are filled by networking/internal contact. At least in the US that's the case in both i-bankings and, especially, S&T/ER.
So, the language is part of the problem - but it only feeds into the more overarching theme. Learn the language and network your butt off.
The networking thing will need to happen in the US or Sweden, though, and it's the most critical part.
Unless I'm way offbase and Sweden doesn't work that way and there's a more formal way of filling these one-offs.
Moving from MO to FO (Originally Posted: 02/01/2007)
What do you think is an adequate time spend in MO to start looking for a FO position? Is there an unwritten industry rule in regards to time one needs to spend in MO before looking for a job in FO? All this in ref to trading. Thx, L
are you in the same city as the trading desk? do you sit on or near the desk? i'd speak to one of the traders, whoever you know best/are most comfortable with.
I sit floor above and talk to all of them daily. The problem is there is no PnL this year so no promo to FO. I have been in MO(trade support) for 1.5 now and I am thinking to look somewhere else since there is no opportunity in my current place. I really would like to move on the desk not to another MO. I am just curious about the time ppl like to see one did in MO before they will consider them for FO job. L
i know ppl who did it for 3 months, and others who did it for years and got nothing. if you distinguish yourself, there's no set timeframe except that there has to be an open seat on the desk
What about moving to a diff shop? Headhunters tell me that Ive been in MO too short. Others tell me enuf time spent there.
Umm you're asking a very subjective question. The move depends on numerous variables. Some of them being:
I've seen alot of people make the transition and mostly these lateral movers tend to progress faster than the new analyst recruited from a target. Not sure why, maybe they are more hungry.
This is my CV it should clear some of the questions. I am simply looking for a move to FO outside my current place. Objective: Trader Assistant
Qualifications: Top global bank analyst with outstanding experience in foreign exchange options. Comprehensive knowledge of foreign exchange, trade support, and PnL. Knowledge and understanding of risk management. Analytical, detail oriented, excellent multi-tasking and organizational aptitude with unyielding drive to succeed.
Experience: New York, New York Sr. Middle Office Analyst-Derivatives, August 2005-Present • Provide all trade support functions to the foreign exchange options desk • In charge of daily exercise and expiry (all cuts) of over the counter traded foreign exchange options • Handle daily fixing procedures for average rate options • Perform trade entry, conversions, and trade amendments • Oversee weekly and quarterly exercise and expiry of exchange traded options and futures • Execute barrier triggers, window trade conversions, forward volatility agreement trades, and other exotic structures • Monitor all NDF balances and perform NDF closeouts • Work directly and effectively with traders, sales, and back office to resolve trade discrepancies • Perform daily position reconciliation of FX listed options and futures to mitigate risk exposure • Responsible for support and maintenance of the trading system in preparation for rolling the book to Tokyo hours • Generate PnL for global foreign exchange business and FX options desk • Responsible for developing skills of new team members
• Prepared and updated investment and FX reports used by senior management • Managed retail Bank Deposit System to maximize daily cash collections and maintain its integrity • Handled processing and input of wire transfers and ACH’s thru Chase Insight treasury workstation • Prepared monthly cash receipts journal entries for retail bank accounts and lockbox accounts • Performed monthly bank account analyses to ensure they meet budgetary constrains, investigate and solve discrepancies
Skills: Knowledge of Murex Trading Platform, Reuters, and Bloomberg Proficient in Microsoft Office Package, Spreadsheet Software and Internet Bilingual in English and Polish
Education: Columbia University, New York, New York School of International and Public Affairs Master of Public Administration, May 2007 Concentration: International Economic Policy and Management
Options Volatility Trading, December 2006
New York University, New York, New York Certificate in Financial Risk Management, May 2005
Seton Hall University, South Orange, New Jersey W. Paul Stillman School of Business Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, Cum Laude, May 2003 Major concentration in Finance Minor in International Business, Certificate in Business Law GPA: 3.5/ 4.0
Activities: Mentor, Big Brothers Big Sisters of Morris, Bergen and Passaic Counties Volunteer, Habitat for Humanity Snowboarding
Best Time to Jump from MO to FO (Originally Posted: 10/14/2013)
I've been in a MO position at a BB for about six months now. I desperately want to make the jump from MO to a S&T or prop shop gig. I've gotten some recognition from traders for analysis I have done for them (they specifically mentioned it to my boss's boss) and have in that six months found out I passed CFA Level 1 on my first attempt. I'll be taking Level 2 in June 2014 and am going to do everything necessary to pass the exam on my first attempt. My question is three fold. First, when is too early to start seriously making overtures to S&T and prop desks. Second, given that my previous two roles since graduating were 6 months each, what time should be spent in my current role to show some staying power, for lack of a better phrase. Third, my boss flat out asked me why I was taking the CFA and I--somewhat stupidly-- said that I wanted to make a jump to a FO gig in a couple years; how bad is it to tell your boss that you're eyeing greener pastures a couple years down the road and how--beside killing it at my current job--can I make amends for that error? All harsh criticism accepted and welcomed.
It's never too soon to start that transition. In fact, I would be concerned about staying too long.
And fuck your boss, tell him to mind his own business (don't really say that, but if you must make sure you do it Kevin Hart style: "...you two plus two not knowing what the fuck it is, bitch." etc). On a serious note, I think that yes it is bad that you mentioned your goals. In my experience, a lot of these MO/trade support people that have been there for years, rotting away, waiting for their shot at that junior trading position are all very bitter. There are many that are just happy to be there, are good at what they do, and will also be very happy for you...but be cautious in identifying them/sharing your aspirations.
Talk to the people you actually want to work with. Impress them. Show them you are intelligent, social, and likeable. Keep chugging away at the CFA. Not sure how much incremental value level 2 will add to your efforts but it definitely won't hurt if you have the time.
Flake comes through again with the knowledge.
The comment about bitter MO/trade support people is very true. I've found that they've probably never heard of networking/getting an MBA. The cruel reality is that they're most likely never going to break into trading. I only know of one guy who made the move from MO to FO at a BB. It only took him 7 years. To be honest, the waiting game does not work.
On the other hand, some MO people are really good at what they do and are fine with their roles. I would just caution you to not tell anyone about your FO aspirations. The only people you should be talking to are the people you want to eventually work with.
PS - I disagree with mb666. 18 months is way too long. The sooner you get out, the better. Try to spin your MO gig as an S&T role.
If you do this, what happens to you in the event you crash and burn once you get to the FO position or even if you get laid off after 3 months?
Having a year or 2 of MO experience might not be a bad thing to have to fall back on if things don't quite work out.
Hi Flake!
I feel this answers the OP's question perfectly.
Keep up a good rapport with MO and do your best in your job right now, but honestly- fuck waiting. Aggressively look for a FO role if that's what you want. When is the best time to move? When you get the offer. Just keep in mind that like others have mentioned in-house transitions like this are difficult because they require a combination of luck and time with a touch of politics (in some banks more than others). To counter this, I'd cast a wide net and be flexible.
Don't focus too much on the effects that leaving now for your ideal role will have, as that's putting the cart before the horse.
I may get flak for this but the respectable thing to do would be to invest about 18 months in your MO position before trying to transition. I'm assuming that your boss took the the time to train you and so forth. 18 months is usually the threshold where your current manager will understand that you want to pursue better opportunities. And as you're doing it laterally you're in a better position if he is not pissed at you. Again, this is from the perspective of a manager.
Of course if the FO team really wants you, and you can prove that you will add more value to the firm as a whole in that capacity, then your current manager can be overruled. Is the FO actively trying to "recruit" you or are you just trying to get an interview?
.
Many will disagree, but I agree with mb666. However, I can't speak to your specific shop and situation, but I can tell you that in energy especially, starting in MO or as a trading assistant is seen as a valuable, sometimes even necessary experience for making the jump into FO. I am not just saying this--every person on our floor that has been hired in the last five years began as a risk, credit, trading, or land analyst.
It's never to early to forge relationships with your traders. If I'm not mistaken, Monty got his power trading job by shadowing people on his floor and learning as much as possible. If you keep performing at a high level in your current role, are able to pass L2, and are held in high regard by your traders, you'll be in very good shape to make the internal move after 12-18 months. I find it hard to imagine your current boss recommending and supporting you for an internal switch after anything less than 12-18 months. Having him/her on your side would make the transition infinitely more attainable.
People are going to jump all over me for this, so of course, take it with a grain of salt. I have no experience on BB floors--just sharing my experience, and I have never personally met anyone who has done this outside of energy/power.
Karma's a good thing. So it's good to put your 18 months in. I'm with mb666 and CaR. So far, all of the folks who work in industry are telling you to wait.
I was one of the folks who transitioned from MO Analytics to FO after two years of work. I made the transition relatively close to the bottom at the end of 2009. Now I'm heading to a systematic quant strategy role at a pretty big hedge fund. (you'd recognize the name). We're a small group managing a decent chunk of change. Irony of ironies, I was hired for my product knowledge from my MO days. So being moderately loyal, being a nice person, and doing good work has this amazing ability to let completely unsophisticated people leapfrog the job-hoppers in this Mister Magoo-like way.
I think it will be easier to make the transition with 18 months worth of solid internal reviews than six months. But you don't want this to blow up on you, and trying too hard now may hurt your chances later. It may also really come back to haunt you if your boss finds out.
I am not going to say that risk management is better experience than trading for trading. But I am going to say that if risk management was the best job you could land coming in, you've made all of the right moves so far, and the next right move, if you're playing a patient, conservative game, is waiting 15 months to start looking for an internal opportunity and really sticking it out to month 17-18.
But one bad review between months 12 and 18 could screw this up. So you can't let your work suffer.
And remember to keep that internal bridge working after you cross it.
All the folks who work in the industry? Who the fuck am I then? I went through that transition and I started in the same spot as OP. I say if you want to move on don't wait. The only scenario I can think of where you should wait is if you were to try and join the traders you currently support (it sounds like this is the case, unfortunately). Then yeah...it will probably be tough to make the move without your boss' blessing. But what's stopping you from networking with other desks or groups? Nothing. Your boss and his recommendation will mean jack shit in that case. Look out for yourself and be a little selfish. There will be enough junior level drones in line to replace you in MO. Who cares if you burn those bridges? I did. Never looked back.
You forgot to add the most prestigious Masters in Finance from one of the most prestigious universities in the world to that list. It may have had something to do with your ability leapfrog all Mister Magoo-like.
Here's another thing...it's not like you're going to wait for those 18 months and then on month 19 you're making the jump. That shit takes time. I started talking to various people in research at around 5-6 months on the job. I didn't see any kind of breakthrough until 4 months later, and I didn't get my final offer until I was working for 12-13 months. I consider myself to be relatively lucky and I think that's a pretty short timeline...but this kind of shit can take years. Out of my MO class in 2009, I was the first to move. Four others followed soon after also by networking. On the other side of the spectrum, those who wanted to move but waited for a year....guess where they are right now? They are still doing the same BO/MO shit 3 years later. Except now these kids are studying for the GMAT or trying to figure out if the CFA will help (it won't).
I think for more quant oriented guys and developers like IP it's a little different because they have some sort of tangible skill they can leverage. I assume OP is in a position similar to mine, doing trade support where your biggest challenge is figuring out why the end of day P&L on your trade entry system is different from the blotter and different from the back office settlement system...I don't see where else that kind of knowledge would be useful.
Agreed with Flake.
Networking takes time and those who wait it out in hopes that the trading desk will pull you from MO to join the traders will be waiting for a while. Do people actually realize how many MO folks are crossing their fingers, hoping that time and "what's fair" will push them to FO?
This whole waiting game is exactly the opposite of what this site encourages: aggressive (but tactful) approach. Go get what you want and stop trusting that the world will give you what you want without you putting in the effort.
And didn't IP do more quant-related stuff? That's more relevant than cross-comparing #s for P&L.
I have to agree with Flake here even though he apparently doesn't work in finance anymore. However, feel free to take my thoughts with a grain of salt as I have never had to make the MO to FO transition and don't work in trading. However, my opinion is that your company would not hesitate to fire you / let you go if it was in its best interest so why should you be expected to act any differently?
Don't leave a job or position before a year is up, especially when you're starting out. That is for your own benefit (in several ways), not just your employer's. But in terms of corporate entities...you don't owe them a god damn thing other than doing the job they pay you to do while you are employed there.
By the way, what Flake is describing as his previous role sounds like back office not middle office. BO you definitely want to get out as fast as possible, that stuff really sucks and you don't learn anything. So I guess there are conflicting motivations.
Pretty sure OP is doing what I did but could be wrong. I sat next to my traders booking their trades and sending out their risk and p&l at the end of the day. Whether it's BO or MO I don't really give a shit. There are some MO groups that may be worth sticking around for such as risk management maybe but this trade support stuff is bull shit (and I'm not talking about energy or commodities).
Start the conversations now, but don't expect anything until at least one year into your job. Shit takes time and other managers want to seem like team players for the firm. Don't feel some false sense of loyalty to a job you don't want, I'd fire you in a heartbeat if it suited my interests.
I just thought this needed to be reiterated on this thread.
You can also network outside of your bank...
Ask your traders if they have any contacts at other banks, and setup some time to talk. This will probably give you even more opportunity to chat with the traders at your bank. This way they also know that you're serious about becoming a trader, and aren't waiting for any handouts. If you want it, go after it.
Mid-Office to Front Office? (Originally Posted: 03/04/2007)
Have any of you had a mid-office summer internship and then transferred to front office full time? Or did most of you who had mid-office like it and decide to take the full time mid-office offer?
bump
I had a mid office summer internship (soph year) and transferred to I-banking internship (junior year). A lot of other kids in the program transferred to front office full time. Definitely possible and common.
Is it pretty easy to do this, like is it a lot easier as far as the interview since you are moving up internally or no?
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