middle office to front office. whats the best strategy?

All

I graduated cum laude from a non-core school with a BS in Finance back in 2008. Got hired by a BB in their Operations program and was placed within a back office group for two years. Moved on to a middle office role in sept 2010 and have been there ever since. It will be about 5 years since I graduated college and I have still not been able to break into the revenue generating side of the business (sales/trading, IB, asset man. etc) despite busting my ass for my trading desk and networking alot over the years . At this point I am considering take CFA level 1 or heading to b-school full-time (obviously something at least top 20). which should I do? Would you recommend another path? I appreciate your help and insight. Thanks

 

The answer usually comes down to b-school or networking. Networking didn't work for you, so it looks like b-school is your best bet.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 

But I would only go back to b-school to break into i-banking right? Sales/trading don't really care about b-school, correct? By the time I am done with b-school, I will be 30 or 31 years old, would I even be hired as an Associate at that age? I am also not a fan of levering up for a 2 year vaca and thinking if I pass level 1 CFA I could at least get some front office interviews and hopefully break in that way. What do you guys think? Thanks for your help.

 

I have no idea tbh. If you want to S&T, ask this in the S&T forum.

"You stop being an asshole when it sucks to be you." -IlliniProgrammer "Your grammar made me wish I'd been aborted." -happypantsmcgee
 
Ticking:

I'm a 2008 grad so I sympathize. According to the WSJ, we graduated into the worst labor market in 25 years.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014241278873238...

Regardless, I made the jump 3 years ago. Passed CFA Level 1, and that's all you need for interviews. Got fired for applying to B-School earlier this year.

Best of luck!

lol@got fired for applying to b school. what jerks, glad you're positive though. sounds like you're on a great track.

If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!
 

But I would only go back to b-school to break into i-banking right? Sales/trading don't really care about b-school, correct? By the time I am done with b-school, I will be 30 or 31 years old, would I even be hired as an Associate at that age? I am also not a fan of levering up for a 2 year vaca and thinking if I pass level 1 CFA I could at least get some front office interviews and hopefully break in that way. What do you guys think? Thanks for your help.

 

You have several mistakes in your bullet points and to be honest most of them are very awkwardly phrased.

Also, do you know how ridiculous this one sounds? "Leveraged advance Excel and VBA background to construct a time savings of at least 10% on every spread sheet encountered"

How are you going to quantify that for me? At LEAST 10% on EVERY spreadsheet? Really? You sat there and timed the process before and after your "improvements" for every single spreadsheet you worked on? If you're going to make crazy statements you better be ready to defend them.

Where is your GPA? I assume it's sub 3.0? If I'm wrong and it isn't below 3.0, I would include it to stop others from thinking that too.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 

Lucky for myself, my position was in such disarray that 10% time savings was quite feasible and in reality is skewed in the conservative direction. Evidence of backing this up will be readily available.

Walked into current roll and the amount of manual labor was ridic.

GPA is 3.2. I excluded it due to having some experience post graduation, didn't know if it was still necessary to include. Will throw that back in there.

Looking over other bullet points and rewording. I appreciate the time. Thanks Flake and HFer

 

You've been working for about a month, you need to be patient. Why not crush your current role and move on to a full time trader? This is very possible at boutique and MM firms, I've seen plenty of people go from a TA or SA to a full time trading/sales role. Not as common at a large BB (though that can happen). Do you sit on the desk next to the traders? I am sure you'd be able to build relationships with them

 
I'm currently searching for a sales/trading job on a desk, but failing miserably.
So is everyone else. It's not you, it's the economy.
My job is fine, but I'm itching to get to FO. I'm bored senseless running their P/L.
1.) All entry-level jobs suck. 2.) Guess what TAs do? Guess what junior traders spend years doing?
However, there seems to be a glass wall between us.
So knock it down. Ask good questions when they give you something to work on. And smile.

You need to work on getting back to the UK or the US. But risk management/product control is a perfectly good career.

 

^ he pretty much nailed it. Seriously though, if they're saying that language is the main barrier, why not buy Rosetta Stone? How far are you willing to take this and what's your commitment level to making trader??

Get busy living
 

Yeah dude, learn swedish...can't be THAT hard...if I were going to work for a swedish company I would have started learning the language even before the first day of work.

Seems like if you fix the language thing, you'll have the job. This economy's tough dude, and will be for a very long time, especially the financial sector...that may be the only (or easiest) way to get to FO.

 

Something not mentioned here is that a majority, in my experience, of these sorts of one-off openings are filled by networking/internal contact. At least in the US that's the case in both i-bankings and, especially, S&T/ER.

So, the language is part of the problem - but it only feeds into the more overarching theme. Learn the language and network your butt off.

The networking thing will need to happen in the US or Sweden, though, and it's the most critical part.

Unless I'm way offbase and Sweden doesn't work that way and there's a more formal way of filling these one-offs.

 

I sit floor above and talk to all of them daily. The problem is there is no PnL this year so no promo to FO. I have been in MO(trade support) for 1.5 now and I am thinking to look somewhere else since there is no opportunity in my current place. I really would like to move on the desk not to another MO. I am just curious about the time ppl like to see one did in MO before they will consider them for FO job. L

 

i know ppl who did it for 3 months, and others who did it for years and got nothing. if you distinguish yourself, there's no set timeframe except that there has to be an open seat on the desk

 

Umm you're asking a very subjective question. The move depends on numerous variables. Some of them being:

  • the corporate environment at your place, some firms allow the move often others don't
  • your relationship with the traders, have you talked to any of them about the move? Hang out with them outside work hours, discuss trading/strategies etc
  • Also what exactly are you doing as part of trade support? Is it purely operational - clearing, settlements etc? Or are you in risk?

I've seen alot of people make the transition and mostly these lateral movers tend to progress faster than the new analyst recruited from a target. Not sure why, maybe they are more hungry.

 

This is my CV it should clear some of the questions. I am simply looking for a move to FO outside my current place. Objective: Trader Assistant

Qualifications: Top global bank analyst with outstanding experience in foreign exchange options. Comprehensive knowledge of foreign exchange, trade support, and PnL. Knowledge and understanding of risk management. Analytical, detail oriented, excellent multi-tasking and organizational aptitude with unyielding drive to succeed.

Experience: New York, New York Sr. Middle Office Analyst-Derivatives, August 2005-Present • Provide all trade support functions to the foreign exchange options desk • In charge of daily exercise and expiry (all cuts) of over the counter traded foreign exchange options • Handle daily fixing procedures for average rate options • Perform trade entry, conversions, and trade amendments • Oversee weekly and quarterly exercise and expiry of exchange traded options and futures • Execute barrier triggers, window trade conversions, forward volatility agreement trades, and other exotic structures • Monitor all NDF balances and perform NDF closeouts • Work directly and effectively with traders, sales, and back office to resolve trade discrepancies • Perform daily position reconciliation of FX listed options and futures to mitigate risk exposure • Responsible for support and maintenance of the trading system in preparation for rolling the book to Tokyo hours • Generate PnL for global foreign exchange business and FX options desk • Responsible for developing skills of new team members

                       Liz Claiborne, Inc., North Bergen, New Jersey
Treasury Analyst, July 2004-August 2005

• Prepared and updated investment and FX reports used by senior management • Managed retail Bank Deposit System to maximize daily cash collections and maintain its integrity • Handled processing and input of wire transfers and ACH’s thru Chase Insight treasury workstation • Prepared monthly cash receipts journal entries for retail bank accounts and lockbox accounts • Performed monthly bank account analyses to ensure they meet budgetary constrains, investigate and solve discrepancies

Skills: Knowledge of Murex Trading Platform, Reuters, and Bloomberg Proficient in Microsoft Office Package, Spreadsheet Software and Internet Bilingual in English and Polish

Education: Columbia University, New York, New York School of International and Public Affairs Master of Public Administration, May 2007 Concentration: International Economic Policy and Management

                       New York Institute of Finance, New York, New York

Options Volatility Trading, December 2006

New York University, New York, New York Certificate in Financial Risk Management, May 2005

Seton Hall University, South Orange, New Jersey W. Paul Stillman School of Business Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, Cum Laude, May 2003 Major concentration in Finance Minor in International Business, Certificate in Business Law GPA: 3.5/ 4.0

Activities: Mentor, Big Brothers Big Sisters of Morris, Bergen and Passaic Counties Volunteer, Habitat for Humanity Snowboarding

 
  • Make the move as soon as possible. Interview when necessary.
  • You never should've told him you were taking the CFA at all. It's too late now, but don't mention anything about getting out of your current gig from now on.
  • Good luck.
 

It's never too soon to start that transition. In fact, I would be concerned about staying too long.

And fuck your boss, tell him to mind his own business (don't really say that, but if you must make sure you do it Kevin Hart style: "...you two plus two not knowing what the fuck it is, bitch." etc). On a serious note, I think that yes it is bad that you mentioned your goals. In my experience, a lot of these MO/trade support people that have been there for years, rotting away, waiting for their shot at that junior trading position are all very bitter. There are many that are just happy to be there, are good at what they do, and will also be very happy for you...but be cautious in identifying them/sharing your aspirations.

Talk to the people you actually want to work with. Impress them. Show them you are intelligent, social, and likeable. Keep chugging away at the CFA. Not sure how much incremental value level 2 will add to your efforts but it definitely won't hurt if you have the time.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 
Flake:

It's never too soon to start that transition. In fact, I would be concerned about staying too long.

And fuck your boss, tell him to mind his own business (don't really say that, but if you must make sure you do it Kevin Hart style: "...you two plus two not knowing what the fuck it is, bitch." etc). On a serious note, I think that yes it is bad that you mentioned your goals. In my experience, a lot of these MO/trade support people that have been there for years, rotting away, waiting for their shot at that junior trading position are all very bitter. There are many that are just happy to be there, are good at what they do, and will also be very happy for you...but be cautious in identifying them/sharing your aspirations.

Talk to the people you actually want to work with. Impress them. Show them you are intelligent, social, and likeable. Keep chugging away at the CFA. Not sure how much incremental value level 2 will add to your efforts but it definitely won't hurt if you have the time.

Flake comes through again with the knowledge.

The comment about bitter MO/trade support people is very true. I've found that they've probably never heard of networking/getting an MBA. The cruel reality is that they're most likely never going to break into trading. I only know of one guy who made the move from MO to FO at a BB. It only took him 7 years. To be honest, the waiting game does not work.

On the other hand, some MO people are really good at what they do and are fine with their roles. I would just caution you to not tell anyone about your FO aspirations. The only people you should be talking to are the people you want to eventually work with.

PS - I disagree with mb666. 18 months is way too long. The sooner you get out, the better. Try to spin your MO gig as an S&T role.

 
Flake:

It's never too soon to start that transition. In fact, I would be concerned about staying too long.

And fuck your boss, tell him to mind his own business (don't really say that, but if you must make sure you do it Kevin Hart style: "...you two plus two not knowing what the fuck it is, bitch." etc). On a serious note, I think that yes it is bad that you mentioned your goals. In my experience, a lot of these MO/trade support people that have been there for years, rotting away, waiting for their shot at that junior trading position are all very bitter. There are many that are just happy to be there, are good at what they do, and will also be very happy for you...but be cautious in identifying them/sharing your aspirations.

Talk to the people you actually want to work with. Impress them. Show them you are intelligent, social, and likeable. Keep chugging away at the CFA. Not sure how much incremental value level 2 will add to your efforts but it definitely won't hurt if you have the time.

If you do this, what happens to you in the event you crash and burn once you get to the FO position or even if you get laid off after 3 months?

Having a year or 2 of MO experience might not be a bad thing to have to fall back on if things don't quite work out.

 
Flake:

It's never too soon to start that transition. In fact, I would be concerned about staying too long.

And fuck your boss, tell him to mind his own business (don't really say that, but if you must make sure you do it Kevin Hart style: "...you two plus two not knowing what the fuck it is, bitch." etc). On a serious note, I think that yes it is bad that you mentioned your goals. In my experience, a lot of these MO/trade support people that have been there for years, rotting away, waiting for their shot at that junior trading position are all very bitter. There are many that are just happy to be there, are good at what they do, and will also be very happy for you...but be cautious in identifying them/sharing your aspirations.

Talk to the people you actually want to work with. Impress them. Show them you are intelligent, social, and likeable. Keep chugging away at the CFA. Not sure how much incremental value level 2 will add to your efforts but it definitely won't hurt if you have the time.

Hi Flake!

 
Flake:

It's never too soon to start that transition. In fact, I would be concerned about staying too long.

And fuck your boss, tell him to mind his own business (don't really say that, but if you must make sure you do it Kevin Hart style: "...you two plus two not knowing what the fuck it is, bitch." etc). On a serious note, I think that yes it is bad that you mentioned your goals. In my experience, a lot of these MO/trade support people that have been there for years, rotting away, waiting for their shot at that junior trading position are all very bitter. There are many that are just happy to be there, are good at what they do, and will also be very happy for you...but be cautious in identifying them/sharing your aspirations.

Talk to the people you actually want to work with. Impress them. Show them you are intelligent, social, and likeable. Keep chugging away at the CFA. Not sure how much incremental value level 2 will add to your efforts but it definitely won't hurt if you have the time.

I feel this answers the OP's question perfectly.

Keep up a good rapport with MO and do your best in your job right now, but honestly- fuck waiting. Aggressively look for a FO role if that's what you want. When is the best time to move? When you get the offer. Just keep in mind that like others have mentioned in-house transitions like this are difficult because they require a combination of luck and time with a touch of politics (in some banks more than others). To counter this, I'd cast a wide net and be flexible.

Don't focus too much on the effects that leaving now for your ideal role will have, as that's putting the cart before the horse.

 

I may get flak for this but the respectable thing to do would be to invest about 18 months in your MO position before trying to transition. I'm assuming that your boss took the the time to train you and so forth. 18 months is usually the threshold where your current manager will understand that you want to pursue better opportunities. And as you're doing it laterally you're in a better position if he is not pissed at you. Again, this is from the perspective of a manager.

Of course if the FO team really wants you, and you can prove that you will add more value to the firm as a whole in that capacity, then your current manager can be overruled. Is the FO actively trying to "recruit" you or are you just trying to get an interview?

 

Many will disagree, but I agree with mb666. However, I can't speak to your specific shop and situation, but I can tell you that in energy especially, starting in MO or as a trading assistant is seen as a valuable, sometimes even necessary experience for making the jump into FO. I am not just saying this--every person on our floor that has been hired in the last five years began as a risk, credit, trading, or land analyst.

It's never to early to forge relationships with your traders. If I'm not mistaken, Monty got his power trading job by shadowing people on his floor and learning as much as possible. If you keep performing at a high level in your current role, are able to pass L2, and are held in high regard by your traders, you'll be in very good shape to make the internal move after 12-18 months. I find it hard to imagine your current boss recommending and supporting you for an internal switch after anything less than 12-18 months. Having him/her on your side would make the transition infinitely more attainable.

People are going to jump all over me for this, so of course, take it with a grain of salt. I have no experience on BB floors--just sharing my experience, and I have never personally met anyone who has done this outside of energy/power.

 
Best Response

Karma's a good thing. So it's good to put your 18 months in. I'm with mb666 and CaR. So far, all of the folks who work in industry are telling you to wait.

I was one of the folks who transitioned from MO Analytics to FO after two years of work. I made the transition relatively close to the bottom at the end of 2009. Now I'm heading to a systematic quant strategy role at a pretty big hedge fund. (you'd recognize the name). We're a small group managing a decent chunk of change. Irony of ironies, I was hired for my product knowledge from my MO days. So being moderately loyal, being a nice person, and doing good work has this amazing ability to let completely unsophisticated people leapfrog the job-hoppers in this Mister Magoo-like way.

I think it will be easier to make the transition with 18 months worth of solid internal reviews than six months. But you don't want this to blow up on you, and trying too hard now may hurt your chances later. It may also really come back to haunt you if your boss finds out.

I am not going to say that risk management is better experience than trading for trading. But I am going to say that if risk management was the best job you could land coming in, you've made all of the right moves so far, and the next right move, if you're playing a patient, conservative game, is waiting 15 months to start looking for an internal opportunity and really sticking it out to month 17-18.

But one bad review between months 12 and 18 could screw this up. So you can't let your work suffer.

And remember to keep that internal bridge working after you cross it.

 

All the folks who work in the industry? Who the fuck am I then? I went through that transition and I started in the same spot as OP. I say if you want to move on don't wait. The only scenario I can think of where you should wait is if you were to try and join the traders you currently support (it sounds like this is the case, unfortunately). Then yeah...it will probably be tough to make the move without your boss' blessing. But what's stopping you from networking with other desks or groups? Nothing. Your boss and his recommendation will mean jack shit in that case. Look out for yourself and be a little selfish. There will be enough junior level drones in line to replace you in MO. Who cares if you burn those bridges? I did. Never looked back.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 
IlliniProgrammer:
So being moderately loyal, being a nice person, and doing good work has this amazing ability to let completely unsophisticated people leapfrog the job-hoppers in this Mister Magoo-like way.

You forgot to add the most prestigious Masters in Finance from one of the most prestigious universities in the world to that list. It may have had something to do with your ability leapfrog all Mister Magoo-like.

[quote=patternfinder]Of course, I would just buy in scales. [/quote] See my WSO Blog | my AMA
 

Here's another thing...it's not like you're going to wait for those 18 months and then on month 19 you're making the jump. That shit takes time. I started talking to various people in research at around 5-6 months on the job. I didn't see any kind of breakthrough until 4 months later, and I didn't get my final offer until I was working for 12-13 months. I consider myself to be relatively lucky and I think that's a pretty short timeline...but this kind of shit can take years. Out of my MO class in 2009, I was the first to move. Four others followed soon after also by networking. On the other side of the spectrum, those who wanted to move but waited for a year....guess where they are right now? They are still doing the same BO/MO shit 3 years later. Except now these kids are studying for the GMAT or trying to figure out if the CFA will help (it won't).

I think for more quant oriented guys and developers like IP it's a little different because they have some sort of tangible skill they can leverage. I assume OP is in a position similar to mine, doing trade support where your biggest challenge is figuring out why the end of day P&L on your trade entry system is different from the blotter and different from the back office settlement system...I don't see where else that kind of knowledge would be useful.

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 
Flake:

Here's another thing...it's not like you're going to wait for those 18 months and then on month 19 you're making the jump. That shit takes time. I started talking to various people in research at around 5-6 months on the job. I didn't see any kind of breakthrough until 4 months later, and I didn't get my final offer until I was working for 12-13 months. I consider myself to be relatively lucky and I think that's a pretty short timeline...but this kind of shit can take years. Out of my MO class in 2009, I was the first to move. Four others followed soon after also by networking. On the other side of the spectrum, those who wanted to move but waited for a year....guess where they are right now? They are still doing the same BO/MO shit 3 years later. Except now these kids are studying for the GMAT or trying to figure out if the CFA will help (it won't).

I think for more quant oriented guys and developers like IP it's a little different because they have some sort of tangible skill they can leverage. I assume OP is in a position similar to mine, doing trade support where your biggest challenge is figuring out why the end of day P&L on your trade entry system is different from the blotter and different from the back office settlement system...I don't see where else that kind of knowledge would be useful.

Agreed with Flake.

Networking takes time and those who wait it out in hopes that the trading desk will pull you from MO to join the traders will be waiting for a while. Do people actually realize how many MO folks are crossing their fingers, hoping that time and "what's fair" will push them to FO?

This whole waiting game is exactly the opposite of what this site encourages: aggressive (but tactful) approach. Go get what you want and stop trusting that the world will give you what you want without you putting in the effort.

And didn't IP do more quant-related stuff? That's more relevant than cross-comparing #s for P&L.

 

I have to agree with Flake here even though he apparently doesn't work in finance anymore. However, feel free to take my thoughts with a grain of salt as I have never had to make the MO to FO transition and don't work in trading. However, my opinion is that your company would not hesitate to fire you / let you go if it was in its best interest so why should you be expected to act any differently?

[quote=patternfinder]Of course, I would just buy in scales. [/quote] See my WSO Blog | my AMA
 
Going Concern:

Don't leave a job or position before a year is up, especially when you're starting out. That is for your own benefit (in several ways), not just your employer's. But in terms of corporate entities...you don't owe them a god damn thing other than doing the job they pay you to do while you are employed there.

What about your team and your manager who went to bat for you with said faceless corporate entity?
 

Pretty sure OP is doing what I did but could be wrong. I sat next to my traders booking their trades and sending out their risk and p&l at the end of the day. Whether it's BO or MO I don't really give a shit. There are some MO groups that may be worth sticking around for such as risk management maybe but this trade support stuff is bull shit (and I'm not talking about energy or commodities).

Under my tutelage, you will grow from boys to men. From men into gladiators. And from gladiators into SWANSONS.
 

Start the conversations now, but don't expect anything until at least one year into your job. Shit takes time and other managers want to seem like team players for the firm. Don't feel some false sense of loyalty to a job you don't want, I'd fire you in a heartbeat if it suited my interests.

 

You can also network outside of your bank...

Ask your traders if they have any contacts at other banks, and setup some time to talk. This will probably give you even more opportunity to chat with the traders at your bank. This way they also know that you're serious about becoming a trader, and aren't waiting for any handouts. If you want it, go after it.

 

I had a mid office summer internship (soph year) and transferred to I-banking internship (junior year). A lot of other kids in the program transferred to front office full time. Definitely possible and common.

 

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