Recent headline from Norges Bank CEO, Nicolai Tangen, on the differences in European work attitudes compared with US.
"There's a mindset issue in terms of acceptance of mistakes and risks. You go bust in America, you get another chance. In Europe, you're dead...We're not very ambitious. I should be careful talking about work-life balance, but the Americans just work harder."
As someone who’s worked in the UK and US I’d be interested to get some thoughts ?
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I read this as well. Having spent time in the UK and US I would largely agree, think it’s just a slightly different approach to work generally. I would also saying for an investment profile perspective, the UK / EU market is so ossified that the vast majority of companies in the European market are legacy industrials / luxury goods that are sold into the Chinese market. Really don’t see a ton of innovation. Recognize that there are a few national champions (Mistral, Klarna, Wirecard lol), but generally don’t see a ton of growthy companies
Seconded
Agree with your point, at least from the investment side it feels like London is losing its footing with lower multiples and more companies listing or going public in the EU (post-brexit) or the US.
On the attitude side, it just feels like there’s been a big shift IMO. NYC always gets the bad rep but London seems to be failing at keeping up with the pace, especially now that more left-leaning guys in EU have mentioned it.
Nicolai Tangen is absolutely correct.
He is right but missing the point: Europeans are not innately lazier, they are just not incentivized to work harder given absurdly high levels of taxation (and more prevalent welfare state) and lower paying jobs and overall shitty economic opportunities.
It’s a chicken and egg problem: Preference to depend on welfare leads to support for higher taxes. Higher taxes decrease incentive to work excessively, and there is a cushy social safety net to fall back on, and so on..
Thanks for elucidating. This is the work culture spawned by ponderous domestic economic policies and rudimentary career growth opportunities
Watch Morris Chang lecture at MIT. He said he chose Taiwn over US bc Taiwan had an edge for manufacturing as they work harder. He was calling American workers unskilled and lazy. Imagine how he thinks of Euros
Makes sense considering Asians are a diff level when it comes to working hard lol
Definitely a different work culture in the US
How is this news?
Because someone finally kept it real? Is it that shocking that the largest and strongest capital market in the world tends to have hard working citizens? Theres a reason everyone in the world tries to sneak into this country.
It’s like this site, where 95% of posts yell and scream that going to good colleges and working at name brand banks is over rated and doesn’t make much of a difference to start you career, but we all know that’s cope.
Just like all the posts around here predicting the demise and over rested nature of nyc lol.
Living in nyc and working at name brand banks is over rated bro! You can make a great life and make tons of money anywhere!
.
Rare Smoke Frog W
Gave you an SB but pretty ironic that you’re both glazing NY and shitting on Europe. Do you want insane taxes, unlimited handouts for lazy people, decaying cities and unfettered migration or not? Because NY is speeding down that European pathway, and the principles that made NY the global capital of finance are now “far right”.
Worked in both. Its very true.
I would argue continental Europe is far worse than London. There's a culture of idleness that permeates through France, Spain, Italy. France for example just shuts down in August.
As one poster said above, you're never going to get the same work ethic when pay is lower (even after fx) and many of the nations over here have welfare states.
As a person working in Southern EU IB, I can confirm that literally nobody works in August. Clients just disappear and leave everything for September. London is considered a workaholic hellscape over here, not to mention the US.
wtf lol
I'm sure it's worse in Europe but also not completely untrue of the U.S. Well recognized fact that everyone is gone to the Hamptons during the summer and it's not the best time of year to execute a capital markets transaction.
Not France, Spain and Italy 😂😂. Italians in London are fucking hardworking and sharp though
Eidt; didnt read subforum
Have worked with some euro buyers in the past and they just leave for a whole month in the summer. No shits given if another buyer can finish all their diligence in that timeframe and win the bid. Outcome is then losing to a US buyer. Definitely different.
Tangen's also a genius, has a great podcast as well.
100% true due to various factors. Definitely ingrained in the culture. Also perhaps due to history of European powers leading the world people probably get complacent. Would also wonder whether Europeans who immigrated to the US self selected for genetics which were more risk taking/harder working. And obviously higher safety net and lower rewards vs the US.
So older brother has run companies based overseas (Europe and India). Have several close friends who are Brits. They came to the states 20 yrs ago and have become citizens. All of the above would tell you Americans works harder AND there is WAY more opportunity and incentive here. Perhaps it's a cause / effect thing. Our system is really built on growth, whether it be a start up new tech or an blue chip company. It's all about what have you done for me lately, stock options, moving fast and upward. Not the same in other places.
Consider: Are Europeans lazy, or are Americans corporate slaves?
This European idea of the "American corporate slave" sounds like a major cope. GDP per capita is surprisingly low across much of Europe. People don't want to admit that this is a bad thing, so they start telling stories about quality of life, "better" healthcare, walkable cities and all that other bullshit.
False comparison, you have to compare the average American with no savings and medical debt to the average European
As an entrepreneur, I'd obviously much prefer the US. Much easier to obtain fuck u levels of wealth, however there is survivorship bias at play
However, as a white-collar professional with a w2 income, the decision is much harder. In exchange for a somewhat lower nominal income in London vs NYC you get better WLB, disposable income feels much higher, free healthcare, and overall better QoL
Well walkable cities are awesome, but completely irrelevant to GDP. NYC is extremely walkable and full of hustlers. Not arguing just supporting your point.
He did not just call quality of life, good healthcare, and walkable cities „inventions“ to compensate for lower GDP pee capita, did he?
First of all he's obviously correct, I don't know how anyone can disagree with him and keep a straight face.
Second, is it any surprise given the incentives?
The US system has always been more about individual effort building up society. We turn strivers loose and count on them to support society by inventing new things, build better things, etc. So people get into a mindset that their rewards will be proportional to their effort.
In Europe people count on the government to take care of a lot more for them, and they start living under that model from birth. So the only world they know is one where there's little incentive to put in the extra effort.
That's pretty obvious. That's why plenty of young Americans hate US and dream about moving to Europe, so they can work less and have more vacations.
That is because in America, cheese burger is 20 dollar!
Post COVID Americans are pretty lazy, long COVID
Just my own thoughts - Worked across America and Europe extensively and continue to do.
It is relatively evident that American culture is obsessed (not in a bad way) by work status and drives significant outperformance. But I have also seen very significant drive for success in Europeans, so pretty blase to just say Europeans as a whole. Some Europeans are happier to focus on life outside of work, and equally some Americans confuse working harder with being more inefficient (i.e. 40+ page powerpoints) to get the same conclusions you can do in 10.
American GDP per Capita vs. European countries is generally better (with a few European country exceptions), but this is certainly not simply driven by a work harder culture. It is also significantly driven by America's access to physical resources, and isolation (physically) from other geopolitical risks. It is well documented that amongst Wealthy countries (including Western Europe & US) those with access to substantial natural resource have an inverse correlation to intelligence indicators and innovation. America is a prime example. As for it's relative isolation - Europe is certainly not a single country unlike the US. The relative size of the US from a population perspective vs any European country makes it significantly easier to grow a company and subsequently access deeper markets (from a revenue/labour/liquidity perspective) without having to traverse or negotiate across borders. Not really a comment on culture - but part of the reason why the US has more 'growth' companies, and I totally agree - if I were purely thinking about economics, I would HQ in US too. Just like every empire (British, Portugese, Spanish, Persian, Ottoman etc.) that has come before though - eventually the US will (is already?) decline from an economic perspective and will be replaced by another power. Sure it'll be after our lives though
Finally on my own thoughts about which I prefer/which is better, entirely depends on how you measure your measure of success in life. For instance, if it's about the $/£/EUR you earn, then arguably it's easier to earn more in the US, but I wouldn't quite equate that to success. Stephen Hawking died poorer than most Hedge fund analysts, but is far more successful. Another measure is of course happiness itself - where America is a noted outlier in happiness, amongst Wealthy countries Americans have notably lower indicators of happiness vs. countries of equivalent status ... maybe pause for thought. Feel free to look it up. American's also have much greater wealth inequality than Europeans
Personal view is European culture is better and you are still able to obtain the significant levels of wealth as you do within the US. The caveat is of course you are taxed more, but frankly the impact to your status, reputation and monetary reach becomes pretty negligible if you truly have to start worrying about whether the tax differential could pay for a couple of mansions in the 'burbs'. But hey, maybe that's just me. Not taking away from the achievements.
Anyway - European riviera is where i'll end up. That was a very introspective post. And realise I strayed far from the original post
Yeah I agree. The French bankers I have talked to tend to come from rigorous mathematical backgrounds, whereas in the US you don’t go far until you spot vanilla business grads who practiced the guides and got the job…. I think one thing to consider is the quality of people goes far beyond how many hours weeks months does a person sit at a desk and type away.
These people with good comparative backgrounds (and I agree, the average EU banker/finance professional wipes the floor with the average US one in terms of brainpower) is precisely because the opportunity set is so restricted in Europe. No great tech company, no HFs, no nothing for talented people to go after (or way more limited).
Just compare what the US has produced for the world in the last 50 years vs what Europe has.
US: Apple, Microsoft, Tesla, Google, Meta, Uber, Amazon, Netflix, Stripe, NVIDIA, OpenAI, SpaceX list goes on
Europe: Deliveroo, Klarna, Bolt, Revolut, Checkout.com, Darktrace(rip)
You are naming companies - not quite the same as naming advancements Tesla has built on and advanced technologies already invented by other countries, it's incredible, but it just comes down to putting in/having more resource to advance those technologies. I'm American, but what he says is easy to look uo for inverse correlation.
Don’t forget Wirecard
You forgot ASML... But agree this is kind of a fruitless comparison. CERN is also in Europe.
As someone with a lot of academia experience in maths, physics and computer science, this post is hilarious to me. The foundational research that enabled all of these creations to be conceived was almost entirely done by europeans. Throughout my time in school, ~90% of the names mentioned were those of British, French, and German backgrounds. Without even considering operation paperclip, the u.s. has just been seen as a place with enough funding to attract esteemed European professors to come over (e.g. Einstein). Yes, there is more innovation in the U.S. nowadays for mostly the reasons others have stated above but it would be a massive disservice to dismiss the European forefathers which enabled such innovations to even be achievable.
Innovation is important, but making something commercially viable for billions of people is also an achievement.
One of the main findings of modern macroeconomic research is that long-term growth for developed countries is determined by technological innovation: increases in savings, education or deregulation can only result in a temporary level effect. What we are seeing in Europe is a decades-long stagnation in innovation.
This is probably the result of heavy-handed regulation. Europeans love to regulate everything from AI to nuclear power to whether or not you can fire someone. This creates a very negative environment for business-owners and entrepreneurs, which is combined with low incentives for innovation and risk-taking due to very high tax rates. The result is that Europe falls behind in innovation. For example, consider AI: Europe has Mistral while the US has literally every other company. The EU tech sector as a whole is a joke, making up around 8% of stock indices vs the US at 30%. It's no wonder that the billionaires in Europe are all the same luxury magnate families while the roster of billionaires in the US gets rotated every few decades due to disruptive innovation.
I think Europeans also underestimate how much better off the median American is than them. Much larger house, better vacations, better clothes, better entertainment, etc. After all, the median American is 1.5x richer!
I have worked in both countries and yes American work longer hours and the need to succeed is celebrated.
Worked in 4 countries, 2 across North America (US + Canada), and 2 across Europe (London + France).
I would say, as unbiased as possible, that yes, people work harder / longer in the US. That said, I have made a few surprising discoveries:
1) London: more social than I thought. I thought it would be a culture very similar to the US, but it's more European than France itself. 6-7pm Beers before coming back to work is common. A lot of social events, gathering, and offsites are organized at all levels. Hard-working but respect time off. 5 weeks time off as a start (will grow with levels/ years spent in a bank). Multi-cultural. Pay is not as good though until you are VP.
2) France: The toughest environment I worked at. Outside of having wine at clients luncheons, they're probably the toughest people I have worked for. Very direct, efficient, very elitist and less friendly overall. Corporate France / French investment bankers are not socialist. Because you have long vacation time, you are absolutely not expected to disconnect and you will be shamed for not answering your emails. Also a lot more intellectual people following about the world - conversations are more stressful if you did not follow what happened in Uganda last week (as an example) - meanwhile in the US conversations are more friendly and low-level (how was the last football game / how are your kids)
3) Canada: that was probably my biggest surprise. Very hard working, I would say almost as hard, if not as hard as the US; but the pay is not aligned at all. Culture very similar to the US overall
4) Finally, the US: I was anxious going to work there because of everything that is said of American work ethics. But my experience has been great. Yes - they work hard. But because hours are longer overall, they do not require the same level of efficiency. It is widely accepted to take breaks to go to the gym from 5-6pm. Probably because of their reputation of being "sweaty", I find that a lot of banks are actually being more cautious about work life balance to fight against this reputation. On the opposite end, France is fighting against their socialist image - so will be less tolerant with those policies. In fact, if France did not have those vacation, retirement and other social policies in place, I would say they are the most hard-working / efficient nation. No, American banks are not expecting you to die working 18 hours per day, and no, they are no expecting you to handle a call the day after you gave birth. Yes - they expect long hours. But because vacations policies are tougher, I have seen more people working from home / from their second-homes in the summer. There is also a respect for families - they won't tell anything to the VP leaving exceptionally at 3pm to see his daughter's recital. That VP will log back on later anyways.
They are slighlty less intellectual than Europeans I would say, and will make conversations that would make everyone comfortable (whether it is sports, renovations, family...)
Americans attract a lot of hate, but overall they are the nicest people I worked for.
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