Weed, Shrooms, What's Next?

GingerGuy's picture
Rank: Gorilla | banana points 570

Canada's had medical marijuana for a while.
Atai is funding American studies for psychedelics to treat depression.

It's interesting to see how these substances went from medicinal use > illegal > back to medicinal over the past couple of decades. Cocaine was even used pharmaceutically up until 1895.

Is this just the natural cyclical progression of substances? Will we see cocaine used medicinally in the near future?

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Comments (34)

Oct 11, 2018

Cocaine was medicinally used and still is in select cases.
I've been using drugs medicinally dawg. For many years.

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

Oct 11, 2018

If you don't need to use drugs--medicinally--does it make you more sane? Like are you mentally/physically superior? Because of the popularity of drugs, I'm really starting to develop a god-like complex being sober.

Oct 18, 2018

1) It does not. You are not.
2) Other people's desire for treatment (in whatever form) by no means rationalizes your god complex. That's your problem, homie.

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Oct 18, 2018
The Stranger:

1) It does not. You are not.
2) Other people's desire for treatment (in whatever form) by no means rationalizes your god complex. That's your problem, homie.

Ironically, people with a habit normally have a tremendous god complex. The fact that a person has success through the use of any substance does put me a little on the edge, though. I get a little doubtful about its validity.

Isn't addiction associated with some detachment from reality? Such as people who are anorexic but don't believe they're skinny enough, or drunks who don't think they've had enough. One guy I knew explained the feeling as just a need for more. It didn't really matter to him, just more. To keep going and keep doing. It's a shaky world.

You can understand why I'd be concerned by seeing Musk toking up on Rogan's show while running a publicly traded company. Addictive personalities are usually equivalent with impulsiveness. It's not hard to understand the need for a substance but also the go go go mentality that gets you into even the top institutions. But then there's the lack in judgement that seems to occur leading to just royally huge mistakes. It's a very fickle thing.

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Oct 18, 2018

I don't think you get it. Musk toking up on Rogan doesn't mean shit. weed has lower dependence and toxicity than alcohol, it just "seems worse" because of the stigma and because it's illegal. now, if Elon toked up before he went into the office, no bueno. if he got super stoned and then drove home, irresponsible. but if he simply puffed a joint in the early parts of a 3 hour podcast in a state where it's legal, sobered up and drove home (or had a driver), how is that different than a glass of wine or two at dinner? how does that impair his judgment the next day when he has to make decisions? even if he does that nightly, show me the research that says habitual marijuana use impairs judgment when sober.

you assume that every substance has addictive qualities, they don't. nicotine, cocaine, opiods, amphetamines, yes, they have addictive qualities (I'm sure I'm missing some). dependence is a different thing. pot isn't even mentioned in this article (granted it's wiki, but the data are sound: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence#...). I absolutely agree, a crack addict, a heroin addict, a meth addict, you don't want them running your company. we're not talking about that though, we're talking about pot and psychedelics. show me empirically how toking up a little bit or tripping every once in a while (assuming you're not doing it instead of focusing on things like health, work, school, relationships) affects your ability to do your job.

so to put it bluntly, I hate Musk, but I do not understand your concern for him smoking a joint if that's what you're zeroing in on. if you want to be sober 100% of the time, power to you bro, but you really don't understand drugs & the brain if you think that one toking up after work means you're impulsive and shouldn't run a company. I could see a reasonable argument being made that it's actually preferable to drinking a couple of beers after work.

this is about balance, and this is the point to drive home for you. it is possible to use some drugs responsibly. it is possible to crush it at work and be a habitual user of some substances. I've yet to see the data where habitual use of low toxicity drugs impairs judgment while not on those drugs (in fact, some of the research on psychedelics actually suggests that brain function while sober improves after just one dose).

again, I'm not saying you should do drugs, that's a personal choice, but I am saying you need to question your presumptions dude

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Oct 18, 2018
thebrofessor:

I don't think you get it. Musk toking up on Rogan doesn't mean shit. weed has lower dependence and toxicity than alcohol, it just "seems worse" because of the stigma and because it's illegal. now, if Elon toked up before he went into the office, no bueno. if he got super stoned and then drove home, irresponsible. but if he simply puffed a joint in the early parts of a 3 hour podcast in a state where it's legal, sobered up and drove home (or had a driver), how is that different than a glass of wine or two at dinner? how does that impair his judgment the next day when he has to make decisions? even if he does that nightly, show me the research that says habitual marijuana use impairs judgment when sober.

you assume that every substance has addictive qualities, they don't. nicotine, cocaine, opiods, amphetamines, yes, they have addictive qualities (I'm sure I'm missing some). dependence is a different thing. pot isn't even mentioned in this article (granted it's wiki, but the data are sound: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence#...). I absolutely agree, a crack addict, a heroin addict, a meth addict, you don't want them running your company. we're not talking about that though, we're talking about pot and psychedelics. show me empirically how toking up a little bit or tripping every once in a while (assuming you're not doing it instead of focusing on things like health, work, school, relationships) affects your ability to do your job.

so to put it bluntly, I hate Musk, but I do not understand your concern for him smoking a joint if that's what you're zeroing in on. if you want to be sober 100% of the time, power to you bro, but you really don't understand drugs & the brain if you think that one toking up after work means you're impulsive and shouldn't run a company. I could see a reasonable argument being made that it's actually preferable to drinking a couple of beers after work.

this is about balance, and this is the point to drive home for you. it is possible to use some drugs responsibly. it is possible to crush it at work and be a habitual user of some substances. I've yet to see the data where habitual use of low toxicity drugs impairs judgment while not on those drugs (in fact, some of the research on psychedelics actually suggests that brain function while sober improves after just one dose).

again, I'm not saying you should do drugs, that's a personal choice, but I am saying you need to question your presumptions dude

I'm not as much as a wimp as you might perceive me to be. Smoking weed is something I've done and I still enjoy drinking beer and the occasional cocktail. A lot of chicks and too many of my friends think sitting around high on weed is "fun", and it is nice every once in a while, only because it's such a rush to have not done it in months.

This is where my discomfort starts. It's when people celebrate the use of substances over everything else. There's this strange interest in people to sit comfortably with their substances (especially weed or psychedelics) and do nothing else. It really just looks like a moderate to full on addiction to me. I know people that go to work as high as a kite, mainly because they can't function without the stuff. It's impossible for them to be sober.

You say, "oh no it's just a chill substance that doesn't have addictive properties, it's chill it's chill", but can't say where I haven't seen it lead to the use of coke, pills, alcoholism, etc. I grew up in a lower middle class background. Smoking weed and then going to class was something some of us just did. It's not just something you do recreational, it's a whole lifestyle. So, balance is where I question how realistic you're seeing this.

The Musk thing is not viewed badly because it's illegal. He smoked it in Cali where it is legal, and even confirmed it with Rogan (who is a pseudo expert in everything). The use of substances, even if it's alcohol, brings up some real questions about state of mind.

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Oct 18, 2018

I see your conundrum, you haven't seen it so it's hard to believe. let me let you in on a little secret: there are people out there like that (maybe I'm one, maybe I'm not). people that stop at weed and psychedelics, don't do pills, don't do blow, don't get addicted to anything, and have their shit together.

some people have addictive personalities and don't have their priorities in line. I think you need to meet more people who've managed to strike a nice balance between working hard and playing hard. I believe I remember a thread where @InfoDominatrix said she tokes up and has a glass of whisky regularly, I don't think anyone here would say she doesn't have her shit together.

on sitting around and being stoned/tripping, of course if you're not on something it seems like an addiction. enjoyment and addiction are two different things, and I think you're still missing that piece. addiction means a physical dependence, as in you have a physical withdrawal type reaction. I'm telling you, the drugs we're talking about don't do that, for people with addictive personalities, it's in their head. it's why it's no problem for Rogan to step away for a month (sober october) and not have withdrawal symptoms. just because someone is sitting around stoned and chillin doesn't mean they're addicted. just like if you've ever gone on a bender and blacked out, does that mean you're an alcoholic? if you do it every night, probably, but what about once a month?

on the balance thing, I have a feeling we have similar backgrounds (class wise), I toked before class (not often, but I've done it), had lots of friends who went overboard with it, most of them don't work for a BB. for some, it became a lifestyle, for many others, it didn't. I realize that if you were to poll people who smoked 4 or more days a week, you'd find a lot of deadbeats. what I'm suggesting, however, is that the drug is not the issue, it's the person. look at other people who are deadbeats and not driven. do all of them get high all the time? no! some people are just fucking lazy and don't have their priorities in line. take the opposite side of the coin: are all successful people sober and don't use any substance aside from alcohol? fuck no. I think if you had a different friend group now, you'd understand. you should meet my friend group. if you looked at the cornucopia of substances taken as a whole, you'd think half of us were unemployed. some people can balance better than others.

sidebar: microdosing psychedelics is becoming a popular thing in SF because of the improved cognition. I'd also be curious to poll successful people in SF/CO/MA and find out how many people who have their shit together smoke pot. it's probably more than you think.

this may sound like a straw man argument but here's my thoughts on the whole matter: the substances in and of themselves are not harmful as long as you're not driving while impaired obviously (the data show this), therefore they should not be illegal, just because people abuse something doesn't mean you should take it away from the rest of us. this line of reasoning can be translated over to fast food, driving cars, drinking alcohol (though you still have the toxicity issue), and so on. the fact that you grew up around people who went nowhere in life has likely clouded your views of drugs in total. I'd suggest you remove those biases and open your mind to the possibility that moderate responsible drug use is possible, and it is not to the detriment of you as a person.

I've made my point, you're free to believe what you want, all I'm saying is open your mind a little bit (and no, you don't have to trip shrooms to do this), you may be surprised what you find.

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Oct 18, 2018

You don't see what I'm saying. I know enough people to see them go to work and no one knows they're high.

  • If you drink in a bar, no one cares.
  • If you drink at a bar and then get in your car and drive and no one knows you're drunk, no one cares.
  • If you drink at a bar and then get in your car and then everyone can see you're drunk, but no one does anything you might make it home safely without hurting anyone and no one cares.
  • If you drink in a bar, then get in your car, obviously drunk, then cause an accident, someone else dies (some poor teenaged chick on her way home from a friend's house) everyone wants your head.

It's a problem whether it hurts someone or not. Teetering on dangerous ground is not being responsible nor sound judgement and character. And trust me, when I was a teen, i've done my fair share of it all. But then I grew up, and I kind of expected other people would too. That's unfortunately not the case.

If you watch a child play, it's the best thing ever. They play by being curious and explore. Some things they do is destructive but it's out of curiosity and it's pretty great if you take a step back. Adults are pretty pathetic when playing. I'm part of it too though, but I try not to be.

Edit: at the end of the day, it's just be responsible and know that it can't just be all about the drugs. Too many people take the approach that is what it's all about and it's all good if it's legal. It's not. The amount of celebration of this shit recently is the worst pop culture thing since the Kardashians.

Edit2:

Just read past this part:

thebrofessor:

I see your conundrum, you haven't seen it so it's hard to believe. let me let you in on a little secret: there are people out there like that (maybe I'm one, maybe I'm not). people that stop at weed and psychedelics, don't do pills, don't do blow, don't get addicted to anything, and have their shit together.

Apologies @thebrofessor I think you and I are closer on this than it seemed at first.

I don't know if I fully agree that addiction is reserved to withdrawal symptoms. I think if it's hard to stay away longer than a month and easy to get hooked once starting, that's addiction. But definitely willing to concede that's just how I look at this.

And on the balance+trying shit part, can't say I'm willing to start dabbling in more substances. I like experiencing things sober. If there was something other than just "an experience, bro", I might be interested. But, point taken about your recreational use, and I don't have a problem with that, even if it may not be for me right now.

But we're definitely in agreement that the person makes up the worse of cases and I will add it feels like there are a lot more idiots using these days, and can't see that changing with legalization. But I'm for it. Let's get some tax dollars out of this. Plus, I'm not about to fight this either way, I'm just a little guy.

But, no I have no issue with what you're saying.

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Oct 18, 2018

Thanks to @thebrofessor for making my rebuttal more eloquently than I could have.

The main point he didn't make that's critical to this discussion is that we were discussing the medicinal potential of hallucinogenics - these are based on results being parsed out through relatively rigorous clinical studies, administered on a one-time basis, and conducted on people with debilitating mental illness.

Equivocating that with habitual, recreational drug use is incorrect. You can debate the merits of such a line of inquiry, but not (reasonably) on the basis you did.

Edit: Op was discussing the legalization of recreational drugs AND, as related point, their resurgence as a medical intervention. @iBankedUp was focused on the former piece in his follow-up responses.

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Oct 18, 2018
The Stranger:

Thanks to @thebrofessor for making my rebuttal more eloquently than I could have.

The main point he didn't make that's critical to this discussion is that we were discussing the medicinal potential of hallucinogenics - these are based on results being parsed out through relatively rigorous clinical studies, administered on a one-time basis, and conducted on people with debilitating mental illness.

Equivocating that with habitual, recreational drug use is incorrect. You can debate the merits of such a line of inquiry, but not (reasonably) on the basis you did.

I wasn't talking about hallucinogens because I don't follow the research on it enough. For the other stuff (weed, coke, etc.), I think it's bullshit. People don't use it for "brain enhancement" or whatever.

As far as hallucinogens, I've heard micro dosing is being used as a stimulant. Not so sure what's different about that from the cognitive improvement using caffeine or even adderall for people who are incapable of settling in and focusing.

But as I said, I have not look deeply into this. (Also, not sure I care to. People have have years or even a decade of training on that stuff. I doubt I can pick up a paper and make a reasonable objection or approval overnight).

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Oct 18, 2018

Cool. Glad we could clear that up and appreciate you being constructive in your response.

In case anyone would like a little light reading on the subject, I've included the link to the Hopkins Medicine School's proposal to reschedule shrooms and NYTimes article detailing some of their research (written for the lay people we all are).

https://hub.jhu.edu/2018/09/26/psilocybin-scheduli...
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/15/mag...
Disclaimer: Not encouraging (or condemning) recreational drug use. I'm mostly trying to make it clear that this a nuanced issue where sweeping, morally charged, generalizations could actually have a negative impact on people's ability to get the right care.

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Funniest
Oct 18, 2018

yeh it does, YOU ARE A GOD!! I know what you mean I STOPPED TAKING MY PILLS AND REALIZED WE'RE ALL JESUS!!1!!one

Fuck YOU LEXAPRO stealing MY CREATIVE GENIUS

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Most Helpful
Oct 11, 2018

Legalize all drugs. It's easy to get them. We waste billions on law enforcement and imprisoning people and cause havoc on the countries that produce it.

Oct 18, 2018

Nah fuck that, a lot of drugs should be banned because they're bad for all society. I don't want people drunk driving same as I don't want some assfuck on PCP and bath salts fucked out of his mind trying to literally eat kids in the neighborhood park. I'm usually a staunch defender of letting people do what they want, but some drugs are really just bad and should be universally wiped out.

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Oct 18, 2018

That logic implies that illegality stops people from doing it...

Oct 22, 2018

It does. I'm not here to argue edge cases that represent a tiny sliver of the population

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Oct 18, 2018

*Control all drugs and make sure people can take most in a decent environment. Imagine if people made a 'drug' theme park where you could go melt your face off acid and it was designed for you not to fuck yourself up and had backup medical attention if needed. A drug playground

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Oct 22, 2018

So like permanent Coachella? I'm in

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Oct 18, 2018

it's a combination of things: more empirical data showing uses for various things like pot for seizures in infants, shrooms & LSD for depression & neuropathy, MDMA for PTSD. that robustness of data helps water down the fear mongers' arguments. on top of that, public opinion and the lessening of negative social stigma.

the whole psychedelic thing is basically an attempt to roll back post-hippie era regulations where people got scared of psychedelics in the 60s, apparently there was research being done on their usefulness in the 50s and earlier, but that got cut off. as I said in a different thread, it will be interesting to see where this goes, because it'd be easy to just make a blanket statement that you should legalize all things with low propensity for addiction and low toxicity (pot and psychedelics fall into this camp, MDMA to a lesser extent), but what is "low?" and what about drugs with legitimate uses but have dependence or other issues? and what do you do about alcohol and tobacco?

and @iBankedUp you're not more superior just by virtue of being sober. you may think you are, but there's a big difference in you being superior to someone who's a junkie with no self control and someone who uses responsibly. would you say you're superior to @brotherbear who admits to using some uppers on a regular basis? I'd say not, the guy clearly has balance. I'd put myself in that same camp. I'm not suggesting you use, that's your call, but for the drugs with low toxicity, I've not seen high quality studies showing that it exacerbates mental/physical decline more than normal aging.

in theory, I agree with @TNA but I also have a hard time getting past the idea that legalizing heroin is a good idea. but then again, if you believe what happened in colorado could repeat, maybe people will stop abusing opiods if they can get high and trip balls (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/1...)

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Oct 18, 2018

Just to chime in--I also struggle with the notion of legalizing heroin. Even though some countries have certain public programs that revolve around keeping opiates legal, I also did grow up in MA where the heroin/opioid crisis has been absolutely devastating. I know legit several people from my town along who have been long dead from heroin overdoses, and these guys died before the crisis became national news. Sorry, I just cant imagine this stuff being legal.

Dayman?

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Oct 18, 2018

The illegality contributes to the deaths. Why do people overdose? A lot of the times it is because of the fentanyl added to the heroin. This wouldn't be the case in a legal market. On the other hand you are allowing them to have access but you are dramatically reducing the risk and focusing on damage control.

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Oct 18, 2018

Idk you're probably right but i guess im just stubborn on this one. Too many bad personal experiences (not from ever using it but the deaths around me) with it for me to even want to make it more accessible. It killed like 40 people in the town I grew up in last year. Like what the actual fuck is going on.

Dayman?

Oct 19, 2018

No I completely get it. It is very common where I grew up and live now. You know you are used to it when someone passed out on the city streets is normal. Boston isn't even economically depressed but nothing phases anyone anymore..

And honestly maybe longer term legalization of less addictive drugs will reduce use in the very long term. I think the solution for the next 5-10 years will be the hardest.

Oct 19, 2018

Opiates are also often used as pain killers (and they are legal in most countries for those types of medical uses). They are the best thing in terms of pain killers that we currently have. For example, when my mother was diagnosed with cancer, she was given opiates so that she wouldn't lie around screaming and crying out of pain. While opiates can kill people, they can also make some people's lives better (such as cancer patients, people who had their ribs broken, etc...) by preventing them from feeling physical pain. And since sometimes people do die from extreme pain, they also save lives in certain cases. I don't think that you would want to, for example, a cancer patient who is about to die anyways to not have access to the only drug that could make his or her last days a little bit better just because drug addicts exist in this world.

Oct 22, 2018

I 100% believe opiates should be permitted for medical use. There is just such a problem of them currently being over-prescribed by shady doctors, at least where I live. The addition of heroin and the more recent arrival of fent have made things worse, naturally. The crisis we are experiencing, in my opinion, is not an issue that can be fixed. I think it just needs to run it's course because there is not really much anyone can do about it. It's a tough situation. Also, sorry about your mom. Going through similar stuff with my grandma right now, so I think I kinda get how you feel.

Dayman?

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Oct 18, 2018
thebrofessor:

the whole psychedelic thing is basically an attempt to roll back post-hippie era regulations where people got scared of psychedelics in the 60s, apparently there was research being done on their usefulness in the 50s and earlier, but that got cut off.

A few years ago, my mom gave me her copy of "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" by Dr. Rick Strassman - all about DMT, MDMA, ayahuasca and other psychedelics' effects on the human mind as they relate to near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences and spiritual experiences. The book goes into exactly what you said, about funding getting cut for experimentation on psychedelics.

Interesting book, if a bit meandering and repetitive on the science/medical side of things, but the descriptions of patients' trip... wowzers... I still can't un-remember the story of one guy saying that in his trip he experienced being sexually violated by alligators or crocodiles?!?

I believe that Joe Rogan is included in the filmed documentary based on the book, but I've not seen it yet.

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Oct 18, 2018

Thanks for the shout out. There is a massive difference between addictive and recreational drug use. Some people cross the line. Some never get close to the line. Some never try it at all. I feel neither greater nor less than anyone else due to my attitudes on recreational drug use. Live and let live, am I right?

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Oct 18, 2018

DMTs as anesthesia

Oct 18, 2018

I've definitely seen first-hand the benefits of things like CBD oils and THC tinctures on people with anxiety issues, pain issues, Parkinson's and more. I really hope that NY jumps on the growing bandwagon for legal marijuana and its variations.

As for heroin, as others have said here, I'm not so certain that legalizing all drugs would be the most prudent thing to do, but then I look at drug legalization like I do legalizing prostitution, you could get revenues from it, you could implement safety and health standards and just because it's legal doesn't suddenly mean that people who never did drugs or never visited a prostitute are all of a sudden going to start using drugs or soliciting escorts.

And no one starts drinking liquor, smoking crack or shooting heroin or popping pills because they want to become addicted, but rather when they approach the point of abuse, it's far more to do with they want to become something else that they're not. Regardless of their legality or not, there will be some people who will always over-do it and we need to appreciate that there can be physical addiction AND/OR psychological addiction whether we are talking substances, alcohol, sex, gambling, food, other behaviors, etc.

One of my best friends since junior high became addicted to crack back when we were in our early 20's, roommates and waitressing - she'd quite literally would smoke away her paycheck on a binge. Her boyfriend turned her onto it. He also wound up having a seriously bad time with it, to the tune of stealing his kid brother's game system for drug money and giving his car to his dealer at one of his lowest points and wound up homeless for a time. Today she's married, her son is a college sophomore and she's a registered nurse with a passion for wound care management. Her ex beau is an elevator repairman - never married, no kids. They were each lucky and both managed to turn their lives around with different rehab programs. I know at least some of her addictive behavior came from her not feeling loved as a child and a great deal of neglect that she received [her mom was very hands-off to the point where my friend wound up in foster care for a time before other family members stepped in and she wound up being raised by her grandmother]

Then there are the ones that become statistics, like my brother in law whose alcoholism which began in his teen years and who died before his time.

I've seen a range of family, friends and acquaintances be effected by their personal drug of choice. It's definitely a personal thing, especially if you're using something to alter your memory/mind or fill a hole in your life. When you use to mask/block/contend/handle past abuse, stress or what-have-you, it can certainly become a slippery slope.

I admit I go back and forth occasionally on wanting to try DMT and especially ayahuasca. Hubby says he's done with everything except booze [he was a pretty steady user of coke, LSD, mesc and weed in high school and into his 20's - he tried an edible for the first time in several years on our recent Alaska trip and didn't remotely enjoy it]. I've tried crack, various pills and coke, none of them appealed to me. Although I did enjoy the all-night-long ability to dance that coke gave me in my 20s and 30s when I was still something of a club-kid, I never did like the post-nasal drip or that frozen-face feeling I'd get with some stashes [am guessing it related to whatever was added or whatever it might've been cut with].

The curiosity to try new things is still there, however I'm very content with what weed does for me mentally and physically - I rarely feel a true and deep draw or need to go further with today's offerings of substances.

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Oct 18, 2018

Joe Rogan is loving life right now.

Not too high, not too low

Oct 18, 2018

You guys are so cool

Oct 29, 2018

You just have to ask yourself: do you want people to buy drugs from mafia/cartel goons, or from legit companies that are regulated, taxed, and have some element of transparency/accountability? Because people are going to buy and use drugs no matter what laws you make.

You have to ask yourself: given realistic constraints, what are we trying to accomplish? Because right now, people arguing for all drugs to be illegal are really the lobby for funding criminal groups.

Oct 31, 2018
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Nov 1, 2018