This is BS and you’re the people that spread misinformation. You’re not sitting there paying interest or anything or that nature. You’re literally an advisor to companies, and are getting a paid a fee for that advice.

 

How about at boutiques like centerview etc? They do not have balance sheets so how can they work on financing transactions? They sell themselves as 'strategic advisors' so I assume they just do the m&a stuff and leave financing to a BB? 

Unfortunately, ECM has convertible stuff they do

 

I kind of depends on how you define “financing”. They don’t actually lend money, but they will absolutely be a part of the process of arranging financing (i.e. on the buy-side they will be closely involved with the LevFin banks that are issuing the debt in coordination with the acquisition)

 

Question - given you work in IB, i assume: 

so working at centerview/evercore/ftp etc for example, who have no balance sheet, and sell themselves as a strategic partner, will have financing elements to their m&a transactions? i thought these boutiques offer transactions wheres it just pure m&a and send the financing to a BB

 

First of all, sorry you're getting so much MS on here for your religion

Secondly, M&A/coverage role at a BB vs EB is really the same when it comes to this. You will set up 95% of the deal in-house, and the actual debt issuance is done through a DCM team, but you as the advisory team have to coordinate that with the client and whoever is issuing the debt. This is true whether you're at a BB in-house or an EB. If you're thinking at a Q/CVP you will never touch any debt financing and that all just disappears off to a BB, that's not correct. Your bank just won't be issuing it but you will have pretty much equal involvement.

Other ideas - consulting, valuations role? 

 

Its a very new industry, its not structured enough for me yet. But I deffo would entertain it later in my life

 

of course not, but financing based on debt is forbidden. based on another user's response, it seems like most financing is debt led and helping to create such debt is extremely uncomfortable for me. was wondering whether i can find a job where i can just do m&a valuation independent of any financing, but it doesnt seem like it :( 

 

yes, we arent allowed to get a mortgage. which is another problem i have as i do not want to rent for the rest of my life. any suggestions to how i can raise such capital would be highly appreciated!! ive thought about startups but its risky af

 

Companies raising debt is very different from lending to individuals, which is forbidden. But I would avoid finance/business if that is an issue for you. There's no way to avoid it.

 

It's because of usury, to all those asking. Islam holds it very strongly and Catholicism used to as well until the Medicis came along. The only major Abrahamic religion that does not forbid this form of financial practice is Judaism.

 

isnt the Judaism rule quite weird? they say not to receive interest from other jews or muslims/christians (as theyre abrahmic religions) but to accept interest with people outside of that? 

 
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I suggest you should focus on the underlying principle or the suggested underlying principle rather than following the exact doctrine to the letter. For any religion disciples and later on religious elites created a lot of arbitrary rules in the name of "religion" to gain money and control over the common people. In fact, one of your comments that I'm about to quote proves the irrationality of the doctrine you're proposing that you will follow.

yes, we arent allowed to get a mortgage. which is another problem i have as i do not want to rent for the rest of my life. any suggestions to how i can raise such capital would be highly appreciated!! ive thought about startups but its risky af

So instead of debt financing you're proposing equity financing instead. Which is in fact, more exploitative than debt financing! Because with debt financing you typically have known payments and interest rate (barring a custom swap/floating rate agreement). Whereas with equity financing, the potential upside of what your lender can take from you is limitless, not to mention that control of the company is diluted, and in some cases the owner loses control of the business after several rounds of equity financing. Which is why companies actually prefer debt financing to equity financing, but can't get debt financing until they show fairly stable cash flows, solid performance, etc. 

I think it's also important to consider the context of lending in the ancient days. Debtor's prison was a very real thing, and something that few can argue wasn't exploitative. Today most debt is dischargeable by bankruptcy, a luxury that simply didn't exist for the common man hundreds of years ago. I would consider today student loan debt to be the only real debt that is exploitative and usury as the rates are high, the debt is often not dischargeable, and colleges have no reason to not get students to borrow as much debt as possible. 

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firstly, it is not my role or your role to question the rules my religion requires me to follow. Trying to understand the rules is above my paygrade, I just have faith in the rules of my religion and will follow it forever. The religion clearly states that any payment of interest is forbidden, and anyone who is involved in receiving, paying and creating such instruments are committing major sins. 

I'm not a man of much knowledge on the subject of why equity is ok but debt isnt, so I would rather not comment. But I would appreciate it if instead of trying to disprove the rules of the religion, help me find a solution to my problem, which is 1. do boutique banks only work on m&a transactions (not financing) and 2. how can i afford to buy a house in cash. 

 

It actually is your job to question the rules of your religion. If you aren't questioning all of the teachings of Islam, then how can you truly understand your supposed faith? If you don't really understand what you are supposedly believing in, then you can not call yourself a true believer. I'm not saying that your interpretation is wrong or right, but as the above poster suggests, religion is often a lot more nuanced than it is black-and-white, even among the main 3 religions in the western world (and especially in Islam, given the wide variety of interpretations of most teachings there are across the different schools). I would suggest you actually heavily question this "law" and research the context behind this teaching and talk to many people with varying views of this within the Islamic faith. This will be a helpful exercise that will aid in actually deepening, refining, and developing more conviction in your faith, rather than just being a "blind follower."

 

firstly, it is not my role or your role to question the rules my religion requires me to follow. 

I've heard this too many times in my life (coming from a religious background), and I will never listen to this. I will always question doctrines, study the historical context, and analyze "both sides". 

To answer your questions more specifically:

I would suggest you avoid finance entirely if you're adamant against debt.

1) M&A transactions or any business transaction for that matter requires capital outlay. Businesses want adequate liquidity and cash on hand, so even if they could, they're almost certainly never going to pay for an acquisition fully in cash. I've already told you why equity financing isn't preferred so the chances of every deal you work on being purely equity financed is virtually 0. Even if your boutique isn't explicitly doing cap raises, another bank will be doing it on the exact same deal which seems to violate what you've laid out in the OP

2) Save aggressively. Work in a extremely LCOL area.

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Based on that definition you can probably get away as high up on the cap structure as PIK loans. PIK = pay in kind (or pejoratively, pay if you can). It’s a loan where the deemed interest accretes over the loan amount - effectively increasing the principal value - and is payable at maturity, generally. I don’t know of a group that only does PIK loans as it’s a niche product. Usually it’s lumped together with teams that do mezzanine financing, which also includes loans with both cash and PIK interest. Honestly man, just go to ECM ffs.

 

Ok, to answer your question succinctly, there is no investment banking role that does not have any involvement with the creation of debt instruments, apart from ECM (which you yourself excluded because they sometimes underwrite convertibles).

If you’re genuinely serious about this, maybe ER (you’ll still get to follow/comment on/call for M&A transactions). By your standards, there is no transactional work that you can reasonably do without having any involvement whatsoever in the issuance of debt.

 

I can't think of a single muslim billionare who follows islamic rules. you seem naive

 

Ask your local ustad for advice bro, none of us know enough to advise you

As others have mentioned many m&a deals have financing element to it, and as a junior banker you definitely cannot cherry pick which project you want to work on.

 

so working at centerview/evercore/ftp etc for example, who have no balance sheet, and sell themselves as a strategic partner, will have financing elements to their m&a transactions? i thought these boutiques offer transactions wheres it just pure m&a and send the financing to a BB

 

They may not underwrite the debt themselves, but they will be closely involved with arranging the financing (i.e. they will be on calls with LevFin teams, reviewing credit documents, providing recommendations on various debt alternatives to their clients, and increasingly even calling up direct lenders and undertaking the debt financing process themselves).

 

Yeah that was on my list. Do you see any problem working for strategy consutling firms? Do they help with the financing side of things? 

 

The problem is that your  recommendation as a consultant might include the business taking on debt for implementation of some long term strategy (ex. a completely new central software system, investments in manufacturing and PP&E, etc., or even proposed acquisition) and that will factor into your analysis and proposed recommendation.

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There is a hadeeth that the Prophet cursed those who charge interest, those who pay it, those who witness it, and those who write it down. In this case, you'd be witnessing and writing it down. I had a similar dilemma as you, which is why I stopped investing in the stock market, and I'm planning on starting my own business so that I can control my haram exposure

 

Catholicism aka Christianity bans interest too. So Muslims are better Christian’s in that respect than 99.99999 percent of Christian’s now. If you disagree you just might as well make up your own religion or no religion. 

 

As a child I read religions so I can constructively criticize them,  I had a few similar debates with people on whether they can work in finance or they can get a mortgage. Since Quran quotes verbatim  "Islam is a religion of all times" this line is quite redundant since you can't own slaves and get concubines in this century.

Never mind in Islam usury is banned, not interest. Usury is something different. Usury ban in Islam was because of two reasons firstly because of the tribes (Aus and Khazraj) that helped the prophet migrate owed a lot of interest to jews of Yathrib (Banu Nadir, the Banu Qainuqa, and the Banu Qurayza). which the prophet killed and some of them he expelled later on. Secondly, there was too much wealth inequality in Makkah. The Quraish were gatekeepers of Ka'bah and there was no war during the pilgrimage season so they got quite rich and they started lending money at 100% to 1000% a year after that many poor people who couldn't pay were taken as slaves and so were their children, the usury was banned to end this toxic cycle not to stop you from a mortgage and from a job where neither you are financing from your capital and neither are you at the receiving end.

In addition to that Quran's first verse revealed is IQRA which literally means read and you haven't read enough. You need to read religion heavily before practicing.  you don't need to get religion as baggage from your parents. Quran encourages it to believe by reading it not to dogmatically believe it. 

Here you can read the controversial parts of Islam that you don't hear in your sermons. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Main_Page                                                                           

and you would see that prophet consummated a marriage with a 9-year-old, married his step-son's wife, and beheaded a whole Jewish tribe and after beheading her father, brother, and Jewish husband he married this beautiful Jewish girl called Safiyah bint Huyayy

 

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