Giving Back or Giving Away? 
(Gorilla, 744 
Points) on 7/11/10 at 11:15am
Are you a graduating Ivy League senior? Do you have any classmates that are doing Teach for America ? Chances are (if you are from an elite enough institution), you have more then one. This past year's entering TFA class recruited 46,000 applicants. Some sobering final tallies suggested that 12% of all Ivy League grads, 7% of departing Wolverines and 6% of ex-dwellers of the Birkenstock/Free-Range Chickens with their own hacienda capital of the world, known as Cal-Berkley, are heading off to the hood to teach remedial math.
It was as recently as three years ago that even liberal artsy fartsy majors from the name brand halls of academia were wrestling over 100 hour per week vine swinging duties at Goldman and Morgan. The unworthy settled for F500/consulting gigs whilst the remaining mediocrity had the decency to do what disgraced young aristocrats have done for centuries when faced with
adversity .
But now a new day seems to have dawned out of the sphincter of the Nouveau Progressive movement. The noble score of art history and women's studies majors are not taking their rightful place at the "who-you-know-or-who-you-blow" hierarchy of corporate America. They are choosing instead to give something back to the communities they never came from and were previously afraid to visit, unless in lieu of picking up a fat dime sack of the sticky icky.
This disturbing news trickles out just as Wall Street hiring is purportedly ramping up again...bringing up some thought provoking queries...
Could the bleeding hearts have a master plan to steal the nation's best and brightest away from the heinous profit, achievement and wealth seeking of the private sector?
Is this the only way we can finally kill off the immortalized neanderthal known as the American Federation of Teachers?
Or just incentive compatibility in regards to the aforementioned dime sack and transport/storage risk?
So, what are we to make of this? Are the top young minds in America taking the altruistic route and shunning the vile pleasures of Wall Street for a more Brother-Loving version of high society? Or is there something else in play?
Comments
TFA seems to be a good way to
by Jerome MarrowTFA seems to be a good way to delay going into the real world and keeping any perceived 'negative' labels that may be attached to various areas of finance or business away for a short period of time while trying to figure shit out for graduate school. Considering how shitty hiring was the past few years (despite the recent pick-up), it makes sense for some people to do that if you are unsure of what to do and want to keep your options relatively open (esp if you plan on grad school anyway).
depends, how sticky is this
by Gold Man Sackdepends, how sticky is this icky you speak of?
@ Jermoe Marow - you must be
by ke18sb@ Jermoe Marow - you must be kidding me right. Teaching at inter city schools is not "delaying" going into the real world. Quite the contrary. Its jumping in head first. Its an incredibly difficult job to be a teacher in an under funded under appreciated school with minimal if any parental support. An analyst gig may be more grueling in terms of hours than being a first year teacher in the inter city but I guarantee that job is significantly harder.
That being said, I'm not a big fan of TFA. To me its kinda a joke. You get fast tracked to becoming a teacher and receive a normal teachers salary. Not to mention the "prestige" of the program. What are you really sacrificing, nothing really. Maybe if you get sent to a school in the middle of no where there is more of a sacrifice but its not comparable to something such as the Peace Corps where you don't receive a salary and live in the middle of no where, in a different culture and different language, isolated and away from friends and family.
TFA should be reserved for people that actually want to be teachers not people looking to beef up their bschool application or other grad school applications. What a waste of time and money to hire and train a bunch of kids only to have them leave after two years. I have friends that are "real" teachers that teach in the same schools as TFA kids are there is a certain level of resentment. They are doing the exact same job because they actually want to be teachers not because they want it on their resume. I've heard that often time TFA kids have a certain better than thou attitude even though they are really just under prepared first year teachers. Not to mention, a lot of the time, the TFA kids are thrown into situations way over their heads and class rooms they definitely can not handle.
I view TFA as a kind of a
by trackstar2k2I view TFA as a kind of a service to the country..similar to the military, peace corps or something similar. It is a way to give back to this country by trying to help students in underfunded schools learn. Yeah, TFA teachers may not always be serious about being a teacher but who cares? Being a good teacher is not hard if you are intelligent. All you need to do is identify someone's weakness and figure out a way to communicate the idea to them in a way they can understand. TFA is also a good way to keep teacher unions in check. School funding and health care costs are the number 1 and 2 drivers of property tax increases in municipalities (atleast in nj). If at the bargaining table with teacher unions we threaten to use more TFA teachers and employ less union teachers we can negotiate for a lower yearly salary increase for teachers and hopefully have them contribute to their health care costs. That in return, lowers the yearly increase we have to pay for property taxes.
trackstar2k2 wrote: Being a
by SteeloBeing a good teacher is not hard if you are intelligent.
Stopped reading your post right after this sentence
^ ha so true, its so funny
by ke18sb^ ha so true, its so funny that people think being a teacher is easy...clearly no one has every stepped into a class room of 30 wild, immature adolescents...some people are so naive sometimes.
Steelo wrote: trackstar2k2
by Mr_HerculesBeing a good teacher is not hard if you are intelligent.
Stopped reading your post right after this sentence
Stopped reading Steelo's posts after this comment
ke18sb wrote: @ Jermoe Marow
by Jerome Marrow@ Jermoe Marow - you must be kidding me right. Teaching at inter city schools is not "delaying" going into the real world. Quite the contrary. Its jumping in head first. Its an incredibly difficult job to be a teacher in an under funded under appreciated school with minimal if any parental support. An analyst gig may be more grueling in terms of hours than being a first year teacher in the inter city but I guarantee that job is significantly harder.
That being said, I'm not a big fan of TFA. To me its kinda a joke. You get fast tracked to becoming a teacher and receive a normal teachers salary. Not to mention the "prestige" of the program. What are you really sacrificing, nothing really. Maybe if you get sent to a school in the middle of no where there is more of a sacrifice but its not comparable to something such as the Peace Corps where you don't receive a salary and live in the middle of no where, in a different culture and different language, isolated and away from friends and family.
TFA should be reserved for people that actually want to be teachers not people looking to beef up their bschool application or other grad school applications. What a waste of time and money to hire and train a bunch of kids only to have them leave after two years. I have friends that are "real" teachers that teach in the same schools as TFA kids are there is a certain level of resentment. They are doing the exact same job because they actually want to be teachers not because they want it on their resume. I've heard that often time TFA kids have a certain better than thou attitude even though they are really just under prepared first year teachers. Not to mention, a lot of the time, the TFA kids are thrown into situations way over their heads and class rooms they definitely can not handle.
Give me a break you know what I meant. I was not putting an opinion on how hard/easy it is nor the reason why every person goes into the program. By the real world, I meant the private sector, but the phrasing may have been poor. Don't tell me it is harder for a second because, as one can easily argue, it is a matter of opinion and I know plenty of people in shithole areas of Charlotte, south side Chicago, etc. that are teachers and, while not easy, it is not necessarily any 'harder' than an analysts job.
The end of your post actually agrees with me. In recent history, it has been used by people as a way to delay going into other areas. A much smaller percentage (than is intended) goes on to continue within the education sector and plenty use it as a way to boost bschool or law school applications.
Gold Man Sack wrote: depends,
by Midas Mulligan Magoodepends, how sticky is this icky you speak of?
The type to squash a Charley Murphy/Rick James grudge match!
my wife runs a high school
by monty09my wife runs a high school with the largest % of TFA corp members in texas and I will tell you first hand they are legit. The interview process is no joke and you cant yussp foot through it. They weed out the people looking to beef up applications. I know a few people who got offers from various BB's and declined from TFA and vice versa. Who does Google and GS loss out to the most on hiring? TFA
I tip my hat after I learned more about the program and their mission
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monty09 wrote: my wife runs a
by jjc1122my wife runs a high school with the largest % of TFA corp members in texas and I will tell you first hand they are legit. The interview process is no joke and you cant yussp foot through it. They weed out the people looking to beef up applications. I know a few people who got offers from various BB's and declined from TFA and vice versa. Who does Google and GS loss out to the most on hiring? TFA
I tip my hat after I learned more about the program and their mission
I agree that TFA is a legit program. It's VERY selective, even moreso these days. I know several from my ivy undergrad who did TFA and after their stint they went to prestigious grad schools like Harvard Law.
Having said that though, I doubt Google and GS are concerned about losing talent to TFA. Google's main competitor is microsoft, and GS is competing with MBB consulting, hedge funds and PE firms for the top talent.
I have no doubts about the
by Midas Mulligan MagooI have no doubts about the veracity of the candidates. What worries me is can TFA really retain ambitious Ivy League caliber minds 4-6 years down the line when a now maturing 26-28 year old is looking at 45K versus 2 or 3 times that at an IB or F500?. It would be great if inner city schools actually got smart young profs for the long haul...however...where will all the entitled, unionized 55 year old former C students go in that case?
jjc1122 wrote: monty09
by monty09my wife runs a high school with the largest % of TFA corp members in texas and I will tell you first hand they are legit. The interview process is no joke and you cant yussp foot through it. They weed out the people looking to beef up applications. I know a few people who got offers from various BB's and declined from TFA and vice versa. Who does Google and GS loss out to the most on hiring? TFA
I tip my hat after I learned more about the program and their mission
I agree that TFA is a legit program. It's VERY selective, even moreso these days. I know several from my ivy undergrad who did TFA and after their stint they went to prestigious grad schools like Harvard Law.
Having said that though, I doubt Google and GS are concerned about losing talent to TFA. Google's main competitor is microsoft, and GS is competing with MBB consulting, hedge funds and PE firms for the top talent.
you are wrong. GS and Google both allow TFA corp members to complete their two years then start an analyst program. GS and Goog are very concerned. What other program do they allow to push back start dates?
It has been proven that they loss more college grad talent every year not to MS or MBB consulting, hedge funds and PE firms for the top talent but TFA
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Midas Mulligan Magoo wrote: I
by monty09I have no doubts about the veracity of the candidates. What worries me is can TFA really retain ambitious Ivy League caliber minds 4-6 years down the line when a now maturing 26-28 year old is looking at 45K versus 2 or 3 times that at an IB or F500?. It would be great if inner city schools actually got smart young profs for the long haul...however...where will all the entitled, unionized 55 year old former C students go in that case?
no they can not. they have a hard time keeping people for a 3rd year much less a 4-6 year and comp is closer to 55k...
i know my wife campus hired no ivy league kids so you have large number of corp memebers trying to get places... Houston, NYC and Balt. are the most popular markets
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1. i have more than a
by dave7421. i have more than a handful of friends that did TFA after graduation. they all did it as a resume booster. apparently they were smarter than the interviewers and bs-ed their way in.
2. what legitimate change can you make in the lives of these children in 2 years? i very much respect those who are lifers (i.e. monty's wife) but i'm very skeptical, especially considering the constant negative social environment that these kids are surrounded by.
2. what legitimate change
by monty092. what legitimate change can you make in the lives of these children in 2 years? i very much respect those who are lifers (i.e. monty's wife) but i'm very skeptical, especially considering the constant negative social environment that these kids are surrounded by.[/quote]
can not agree more with your point. Two years is nothing but when you have a campus that has used TFA for all its new hire needs you have new people every year for two years. Think about it like this.. does any BB lose much traction with new analyst class? not really.. you have first years mixing in with 2nd and 3rd with assoicates.. the big machine keeps going.. same holds true in education... very small amount stay in educations but TFA knows that.... so most schools have every bodies coming every fall to back fill those who are out the door...
and working with kids is not easy
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Monty, granted you are much
by ke18sbMonty, granted you are much more familiar with the situation that I am, however, I don't think you can compare the rotational program of a ibank to teaching. An analyst is the lowest cog on the wheel for the most part doing the least important work on a deal. Their work is check by associates, VPs, MDs etc. They real engine are the senior guys whose experience brings in deals and makes sure they are structured correctly; analysts just do the work under their guidance. Contract that to teaching, you own your classroom. You are not part of a team you operate as an individual. Granted after hours you can share ideas and get advice but at the end of they day you are alone in your class with no one there to hold your hand. I'd have to imagine to be a good/great teacher you need a couple of years of experience. So basically, TFA is just pumping out a bunch of rookies year after year, while motivated and intelligent, they are still rookies. Experience trumps all.
Also, as I wrote above, the premise is kinda arrogant and insulting, in regards to actual career teachers. The TFA kids get a resume boost relative to their nonTFA peers working at the same schools doing the same job. Except its not even the same because they aren't in it for the long haul, its just a cut and run to improve the resume and get into a better grad school or job. Granted not everyone is like this but I'd imagine a significant percent are.
I think the program is a great premise but should be more focused on targeting aspiring teachers and getting agreements with top education grad schools than allowing potential bankers and consults to take a 55k year job with a major resume boost.
They will all be back in
by cphbravo96They will all be back in finance after their TFA stint and B-school.
Regards
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."
- Ronald Reagan
Midas Mulligan Magoo wrote: I
by RetainedEarningsI have no doubts about the veracity of the candidates. What worries me is can TFA really retain ambitious Ivy League caliber minds 4-6 years down the line when a now maturing 26-28 year old is looking at 45K versus 2 or 3 times that at an IB or F500?. It would be great if inner city schools actually got smart young profs for the long haul...however...where will all the entitled, unionized 55 year old former C students go in that case?
The article from the WSJ notes "Two-thirds of TFA alumni are working full time in education, including 450 principals and school superintendents. Another 500 work in government and policy." While the article doesn't specifically mention what percent of Ivy grads continue to work in teaching, I think it is safe to assume many remain involved with education.
I think that people who end
by SinoMonkeyI think that people who end up going into TFA are more likely to end up in nice law schools or schools of government (Woody, Kennedy) rather than business schools and finance. It helps their application to those things pretty significantly.
I don't necessarily agree with TFA, like many prior posters. We had a few at our Governor's School (summer) during HS and while they were passionate and intelligent, they didn't possess the experience and ability to reach students that many of my older tenured teachers had. Personally, the real problem with public education is both the attitude that students must have towards school as well as the many under performing teachers that DC superintendent Rhee (for instance) is trying to eliminate.
ke18sb wrote: Monty, granted
by monty09Monty, granted you are much more familiar with the situation that I am, however, I don't think you can compare the rotational program of a ibank to teaching. An analyst is the lowest cog on the wheel for the most part doing the least important work on a deal. Their work is check by associates, VPs, MDs etc. They real engine are the senior guys whose experience brings in deals and makes sure they are structured correctly; analysts just do the work under their guidance. Contract that to teaching, you own your classroom. You are not part of a team you operate as an individual. Granted after hours you can share ideas and get advice but at the end of they day you are alone in your class with no one there to hold your hand. I'd have to imagine to be a good/great teacher you need a couple of years of experience. So basically, TFA is just pumping out a bunch of rookies year after year, while motivated and intelligent, they are still rookies. Experience trumps all.
Also, as I wrote above, the premise is kinda arrogant and insulting, in regards to actual career teachers. The TFA kids get a resume boost relative to their nonTFA peers working at the same schools doing the same job. Except its not even the same because they aren't in it for the long haul, its just a cut and run to improve the resume and get into a better grad school or job. Granted not everyone is like this but I'd imagine a significant percent are.
I think the program is a great premise but should be more focused on targeting aspiring teachers and getting agreements with top education grad schools than allowing potential bankers and consults to take a 55k year job with a major resume boost.
I tend to agree however more kids turn down google and gs to accept TFA.
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SinoMonkey wrote: I think
by monty09I think that people who end up going into TFA are more likely to end up in nice law schools or schools of government (Woody, Kennedy) rather than business schools and finance. It helps their application to those things pretty significantly.
I don't necessarily agree with TFA, like many prior posters. We had a few at our Governor's School (summer) during HS and while they were passionate and intelligent, they didn't possess the experience and ability to reach students that many of my older tenured teachers had. Personally, the real problem with public education is both the attitude that students must have towards school as well as the many under performing teachers that DC superintendent Rhee (for instance) is trying to eliminate.
Rhee is I want to say a TFA alum
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You have to be at least
by BrodhisattvaYou have to be at least considerably well off to consider Teach For America
If you are of a modest wealth family and your parents just forked out a fortune to send you to an elite institution, the income foregone to do this program is absolutely ridiculous considering the lucrative routes out of school.
Surely it is an altruistic venture and may be inspiring for some, but on the whole, it is quite the waste of time, foregone maturation, and most of all, money.