PM caught me shopping around
Deleting this for anonymity now, as it's getting a bit too popular. Thanks to everyone who responded for your input.
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IMO this is as good a reaction as you could've hoped for (unless of course he's just stringing you along and plans to donut you at bonus season to be vindictive).
There is no standard reaction. Have seen it range from ultra vindictive (actually pretty close to what you see in Billions) to constructive. Have you previously discussed your concerns about being capped out at analyst and your desire to get a carve? Is this MM or SM?
Lastly, don't expect "senior management" to move the needle or help you at all. Whatever your PM wants to happen is what will happen, "senior management" will fall in line and support him. Your PM didn't get to where he is by being bad at managing up.
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Are you at a citadel/p72 spinoff? (holocene, woodline, etc)
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What series of events led your boss to find out? Please tell so we can avoid something like this happening to us.
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What kind of questions would they need to ask to do due diligence?
Who would they ask to conduct DD? Would they ask people they know at your current firm?
This is a tough one, but will tell you the initial reaction always is anger and truly the initial reaction from senoir management is for sure anger.
Once everyone has calmed down the question is why is the situation is even occurring and could it be avoidable. To begin unless the PM has insane industry credit and power hurting you directly on your bonus or firing you makes zero sense. Typically a PM is already budgeting in their head what you will cost and how to treat it at year end and then some "subjective calculation" will occur on how to keep you around. It is rather clear the PM is already doing this and is already managing your expectations. That said if it becomes clear you are a lost cause, that "extra good faith" may come off at bonus time, this is a risk you need to manage and solve for yourself.
Next, the new found "criticalness" the PM cannot help it and while this "uncertainty exits" is going to not be a pleasant person to be around (based on what you said) that is the kind of personalities that exist in this business typically. Truly this PM may delete your phone # the day you leave the firm, so again not sure you should care about his "demeanor" cause the only solution will be if you stay/leave otherwise expect bitterness. I have seen even the best mentor relationships end the day someone leaves the firm.
Now, onto the major issue at hand the situation may not actually be solvable based on what you said. I do not think your PM is lying I think they are actually saying the truth and I do think you are correct in your "hunch" at this particular firm senior management has more sway. Most PMs really like the way he proposed things the way to look at it is this; you are given a book with limited risk, limited risk = limited upside. So give an example, you now know "30% of your bonus comes from sleeve", "70% comes from main book" so really makes no sense for you to slack on the main book. Now, senior management steps in and says look your analyst wants the optics to show they can run risk on their own but what is the strategy they are going to run, if it is the same strategy as you are running guess what you are netting all their losses (not us pal), cause you guys will just have duplicate strategies. So now PM is given a no-upside scenario and loses possibly focus on his book and best ideas. Typically in this scenario the best solution and especially the one senior management prefers "okay mr PM, you have someone you mentored, groomed, built, now they can run your strategy" time for you mr PM to lateral to slightly different product and grow your business and let the kid slay.
See where the issue lies, your PM does not want to be the one who adapts/changes they are putting that onus on you which is not reasonable. So possibly people in this firm do not think you are the best person to run risk or PM is really against change. One of the main reasons people change firms is situations like this be it either "senior management saying if we promote internally or hire externally, we need a differentiated strategy to allocate more risk/capital" or PMs who do not want to change their style even though someone on their team literally can execute the strategy they want.
Thanks for your response, I think you really nailed it here. Will respond in more detail when I have time to respond thoughtfully.
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So I'm not a PM while the other poster is, so take this with a grain of salt. I was also surprised to see them post the above. It doesn't make sense that a firm's EM rates "star PM" (for example) would consent to being shoved off EM rates to go learn MBS, and the firm would hand over EM rates to a "kid" that this "star PM" trained. The "kid" is almost certainly going to be less good than the original "star PM" (until they prove otherwise... which you need a seat to do... which you won't get here) so why would the firm hand over the original product to the second string player?
FWIW I have never heard (even anecdotally, IRL) except for here that it's the norm for PMs to get shoved off their original product. If anything, the original PM, in the event they are amenable to carves, would still want a cut of the economics of any tenured risk taker that came up under him. But my experience is in equities so ymmv.
Thanks for the information, this area I do think there is a potential path to fix the issues you all have. I do think your PM is being fair with this scenario but here is how I read it. The PM is saying "look managing risk" and "being a subject expert" are two different things right now the PM is the subject expert and over time you are becoming that person (ala career analyst). So the ask is, do you have the time to become a "subject expert" in something similar to what we look at and with the same scrutiny as the typical strategies where we find a potential edge. Truly in the long-run it makes no sense for both parties to spend time being a "subject expert". Then at that point we can find out who becomes the "risk management expert" in this new area/idea so while the PM is saying right now it will be you truly the path to get there may be different. As someone else mentioned seems your PM overall a nice dude and trying to work through this or for a fact can sense you are planning to exit.
That is a very reasonable ask cause many times a PM will have a hunch/idea another similar strategy could be worth looking into but is not sure the potential upside/volatility/edge of that market so unless it has more potential than the desk's core strategy why spend the most resources on it. Again "managing risk" is a different skill and the main requirement is a market with volatility and opportunities.
Now, how things could play out that new area/strategy has as much potential and you then say well I am now moving firms or I want the same payout as my PM which at that point you would become equals (senoir management wishes). So I think the PM is being fair to offer these options here.
For 99% of people I work with (1% being the real assholes), I wish all the best for them if they decide to pursue another role.
…Because at the end of the day, why would I demand someone to stay when they don’t want to? Not good for them, not good for me.
That being said, I do try to cultivate a positive/collegial work culture around me and hope my juniors are transparent with me (what they are happy about, what they are struggling with, what they are mad about, etc.). It’s possible that you simply caught your PM off guard and he simply wants to understand the “why” of the situation. It’s almost like you two are breaking up but the other person doesn’t understand the rationale, which can really get to their heads (“Did I do something wrong? Was it me?”). Consider maybe just having a direct conversation with him to clear the air and voice your reasons.
PS Don’t be guilt tripped into staying. Your logic matters more than your emotional right now: you thought through what the likely outcome would be if you stayed, you don’t like that probability weighted outcome and you’re now pursuing a different path. 100% acceptable career decision.
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Ur PM sounds like a saint; typical reaction is 100x worse
At Citadel it is standard to fire associates for shopping. Have seen it several times
It's funny, right? How else are shops supposed to hire except poaching? How else did those PMs get their seats in the first place (mostly by getting an offer away)? Yet everyone takes it so personally when they get poached from.
It's sort of a tax on being unlucky enough to get caught, but very hypocritical.
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At one place I worked at in the past, I was contacted by some recruiter to join another firm that I couldn't find any information on at all. I always suspected that the whole thing was a setup by my own managers to gauge my thoughts on leaving. Some managers really hate it when anyone even thinks of leaving on their own, as opposed to being fired.
Sounds like your PM is like 80th percentile+ in terms of reacting in a mostly favorable way. I would count your blessings that you can have healthy conversations with your boss, even if it doesn't always go your way. F that headhunter though - he or she put your in a really uncomfortable spot. I would never work with that HH again.
Some of the advice above is excellent. You sound really thoughtful about the situation and I'm sure you will handle it well. The tough part imo is accepting that way this person does is not in your control. The only part that's in your control is what you (tactfully) say and how you react emotionally. Just like you can sense his emotions through his actions, he can sense yours too. It's important that you don't build resentment if things don't go your way! I've done this before, and it's a regret of mine. You seem a lot more mature than me though here so I'm sure you'll avoid that mistake.
Do not have an upfront conversation about your wish to leave until the bonus is on your bank account mate!
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Do you work at a smaller place? It’s expensive for them to recruit so analysts departure can feel personal. I am @ a big shop and we all assume everyone is constantly shopping and plan the business as such. You sound brilliant so either way your career will be fine and you will get to where you want to be.
At the end of the day, this is a mistep but you'll be fine
No, this a scar that’s he will remember forever. Live and learn kid!
pretty bushleague for BD to be like that
I got the same reaction from my gf when she saw me swiping on Tinder
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