Advice for London applicants
There used to be a 20 FAQ London edition made by Pan Monkey which had everything you needed to know about London recruiting but it seems to have disappeared. I'm not going to remake that in any way but I thought I'd comment on more niche things/trends that I, and my friends, have noticed about London recruiting. This advice applies to SA and spring week recruiting: I don't know anything about off-cycles, placements or full-time.
FWIW: Just started work at a top US BB in S&T but had some EB IBD SA offers. Did a summer internship but no spring week. Went to "target" to study something irrelevant. Helped a few kids this and last year who ended up getting some good springs and summers so know a fair amount about recruiting. Will be a long post.
N.B. If you disagree with something, instead of blindly dropping MS and leaving, list what you disagree with; its useful for prospects to have multiple perspectives.
1) Do not listen to Americans (re: recruiting)
- Starting off with a simple one. If you're recruiting for London; listen to and use London-centric sources. A lot of the advice out there is US-centric and not relevant to London. Our recruiting culture is very different. The reputation of different banks here is very different.
- Given the industry, most sources and forums are American centric and a lot of them end up commenting (through no fault of their own) a lot of nonsense on London posts. The decisions you make based on their comments can have immense career ramifications. Please focus on London-focused advice.
- A few examples of differences: EBs are much stronger in the US than in London; I've seen a few people now take things like PJT over BAML because of what they have seen on WSO relating to exits which has honestly gotten tiresome. Unless you really like the culture/have a passion for Rx, there's no reason to take most EBs over a decent BB in London at all. They don't have the same reputation or dealfow as their NYC counterparts (LAZ and ROTH are notable exceptions). Networking isn't a standard part of recruiting in the UK as it is in the States and technicals are less relevant (more on these later).
2) Don't overcomplicate things + buy help
- Spring week and internship recruiting is pretty straightforward; you don't need to micromanage and overprepare. This includes reaching out to hundreds of people for advice or trying to get interview/hirevue questions in advance. There are diminishing returns on preparing for interviews and applications; once you reach a minimum threshold, you don't need to go further. Its hard to accept, but that's just how it is; you cannot micromanage recruiting to maximise your odds. It is simply not that deep. They want real human beings, not BIWS drones.
- All you really need: a standardised CV which has been checked by a few people, a cover letter you've spent no more than an hour making, a good "why IB/why this firm" answer. Competencies and behaviourals will generally test your ability to be articulate, think on the spot and have a structured answer. In order to succeed you need to: a) not have a rehearsed answer and b) have a collection of experiences you can talk about that can be spun to hit the most frequent competencies. If you learn to be calm during interviews and not too anxious (for some of you this isn't possible and I empathise with that), you will realise that you can think about your answer and put something together organically which is strong and makes you seem likable.
- The only service you should ever pay for is something like JobTestPrep which helps you practise for the tests. The tests cut a lof people; you need to practice to get better at them. Do not pay for CV writing/reading services, mentoring or masterclasses. They aren't worth it. You can find the same advice online for free if you ask the right questions on r/financialcareers or on WSO. It might reassure you that you're taking a hold of your future by purchasing masterclasses and seminars but in reality that's just lulling you into a sense of false reassurement. You can't buy an interview. You just need to apply. I saw a student-ran club run some masterclasses at some point (pretty sure the owners don't even have decent internships themselves but hey-ho) and I found it bizarre that people pay for them. Its a good business to run for the owners but you are not getting your moneys-worth as a consumer.
- Technicals aren't a major aspect of sellside recuiting. Most firms won't ask them. Myself and my friends were never asked them. They're not asked as much as they are in the states where pretty much all research/IBD roles will ask them but I have heard of a few smaller firms (and occasionally BBs) ask them here. I was under the impression its because people mention them or their CV alludes to them being present so the interviewer (who has quite a bit of free-reign outside of the HR-demanded questions) decided to grill them. Some PE firms probably ask about LBOs if you're wanting to break into one out of UG. I know some top hedge funds don't ask technicals though. Main takeaway: learn them if you want but most places won't ask them unprovoked. Its a personal decision unlike in the States.
3) Don't overdo networking
- Don't ignore networking, but for larger banks it won't usually lead to refferrals unless you've got an exceptional connection. Even then depending on the bank HR might end up blocking any impact it might have. You don't need to schedule multiple coffee chats to break in like you do in the states; definitely do some so you can learn more about the bank and culture and can talk about it in interviews.
If this post does well/there's enough demand I might make a buyside out of UG recruiting guide since I have some experience with it and there seems to be a lot of misinfo going around about it.
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I could make another account and PM you to preserve anonymity but I feel like the point of this post is to be visible and help others out. If you've got a question please drop it here and I and someone else can probably help you out.
Totally agree with the post.
Another thing to point out is the on-cycle recruitment for the buy side. In London you don't need to start networking and applying for PE gigs the week after you join the desk as A1. You will not miss the train to PE if by the end of your first year you don't have a PE offer. You can take your time and enjoy your analyst stint, and start working towards a jump to the buy side as A3 or associate level.
Yeah, I wouldn't know anything about this. Good to know though, cheers.
It is not like the analyst stint is enjoyable that you ll want to take yout time. Can you talk about the recruiting process of PE? And bank prestige
Disagree with a number of things, and I do think that while it’s helpful to simplify the process you haven’t really given the entire picture. This is what I have to say having gone through 2 SA cycles and now FT;
If you’re not black and / or female AND inexperienced, odds will not be in your favour (even if you’re at a target). It helps if you speak a euro language, but even then it’s an uphill battle. EVERY single first year student (who didn’t convert their spring) should find something to do in the summer; cold mail hundreds of small places expressing interest in unpaid work, ideally doing something m&a/accounting related. Even if you converted your spring, you might get fucked during team selection for SA if your team doesn’t want kids who don’t know anything (know multiple people this happened to).
Interviews CAN get technical, this is simply firm/program/interviewer dependent. Better to overprepare and call it a breeze retrospectively.
This leads me to my next point on technicals/experience; in my team there are 5 interns. 2 of them have done nothing but pull numbers and edit slides for “prospective” pitches. What are the chances they’ll be coming back?
Networking can materialise (again odds are slim), but you shouldn’t do it with the objective of it. You should speak to people to learn, they’re taking time to speak with you so appreciate it and cherish it. No one likes a kid who sets up a coffee to ask you shit you can find on google (another reason to spend time learning/preparing to your best).
Cumulatively, it’s a mindset. The sooner you understand the level of hard work, productivity and dedication needed to do all of this properly (AND manage your studies/student life), the better. From my experience people who recruited easily were the ones who were less productive/always bitching about work. Know what you are signing up for, understand what this really means and you’ll be less miserable.
Overall might seem a little pessimistic on my end but I just wanted this to be candid.
Forgive me if I'm wrong; but I don't see how this disagrees with anything I've said? I was pretty clear that I'm not establishing a guide for recruiting (pan monkey made one already and there's a useful on the student room) I'm just listing some more niche observations.
1) I didn't touch on the diversity piece because I'm not giving generic advice on recruiting. This may or may not be true. I can only speak from my experiences as someone who isn't female or black and found recruiting pretty straightforward alongside my friends who had similar circumstances. I haven't commented on this though so I don't see how its a disagreement. Unless my post came across in a manner that suggested recruiting is easy and a breeze for everyone. I don't think it has but the main point I wanted to stress in regards to the recruiting process itself was that micromanaging isn't a good use of time and people shouldn't start throwing money at the problem. Recruiting for good firms is obviously very competitive and I agree that getting XP after the first year is important, I just didn't want to talk about that in this post.
2) I haven't said interviews cannot get technical. Maybe I have understated how prevalent they are which is fair but I wanted to get across that they're not as prevalent as they are in the US where every single shop will ask you technical questions. I haven't advocated not learning them. As a side note: I am 100% in favour of getting familiar with technicals before a summer internship after you've secured one (if you haven't already brushed up on them during recruiting). Its not relevant to the SA recruiting process itself so I didn't mention it.
3) I don't think we're disagreeing on networking here.
Overall I don't see where we disagree outside of tonality; perhaps my post illustrated recruiting being much more straightforward and easier than it actually is which of course should be called out.
SB'd
EDIT: I wasn't trying to simplify the process at all fwiw, these are just extra points to consider once you know what the process actually is. As I've said in my OP and here, there are a number of resources that actually do elaborate on the process. I don't know what happened to Pan's post though...
OP is titled “London Applicants Advice”
1) If I could go back to when I needed to recruit, I would 100% have wanted people to tell me about my odds given that I’m not female/diversity/other. I don’t think this is necessarily advice, just something people should be mindful of.
2) I said interviews CAN be technical, and this is simply firm/program/interviewer/profile dependent. On the other hand you said emphasis on technicals isn’t as big as it is in the US. This was simply a clarifying point from me, because I found it to be misleading and generic.
Perhaps a difference of opinions, but hopefully it will help some prospects regardless. Hope you have a good weekend mate.
Big agree with 2.
On 1, apart from through official diversity schemes e.g. SEO, 10000BI, various in-house schemes, yet to actually see any bias gender or race wise in recruiting. Haven't been around long so we'll see but where it could've happened, I've not seen it. In fact looking at my FT cohort across the bank (100+ people) it's definitely majority white male lol and this is at a bank notorious for diversity efforts. There are probably Euros scattered in there too I guess though.
Spring week part is accurate in my experience to be fair. I know a couple people who had really senior family connections at a BB or two and got hirevues early though.
Here is the link to PEM's post:
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forum/investment-banking/20-most-freque…
Thank you, tried finding it a month ago and seemed like it was archived or deleted.
big SB
What advice would you have for prep if I have converted my spring at a US BB for next summer?
Relax for a while... enjoy life. Brush up on excel at some point so you're not completely clueless when you hit the desk and end up producing sheets that are uncorrelated with data vomit on them. Depending on the division I'd go over BIWS guide so you're familiar with the accounting concepts and you don't go over them for the first time ever during training. Maybe have a look at 3FS modeling but since you're not going to a MM hedge fund like Citadel for the summer this might be a bit overkill; I'd recommend it moreso if you're doing equity research. This isn't an exhaustive list but is a good starting point. If you're doing S&T I'd genuinely recommend just hovering over the trading sub forum on here and read some of the S&T AMA/Q&As because you pick up some good macro views via osmosis.
Sorry should have specified - will be in IBD, rather than S&T or ER. Not sure whether I should speak to anyone at the firm prior to starting (whether that would be viewed as weird?).
Thanks for the tips - will look at excel stuff before I start.
I'm heading to Citadel/MLP for my FT and was wondering what else you'd suggest for someone like that Cheers
I love interns arguing with interns on giving advice to would be interns
Question about grades- i'm at a low target/top semi (think Warwick, Durham, Bristol etc) and got a 2.2 my first year.
I'm extending my degree to 2025 grad via study abroad and so i'll be a second year of a 4 year program applying to spring weeks. However, I could hypothetically apply toSA positions too and scrap the study abroad year but I feel my 2.2 in first year will hinder me.
I just missed the 2.1 boat by 2% in first year and will certainly get a 2.1 for my last 2 years, but do they ask for exact grades for SA positions? Or can I just say 'expected 2.1'? I'm currently doing a summer internship with a LMM PE firm and am curious if my first year grades will be an issue, and even if they confirm a transcript.
Any colour would be great.
Thanks
PS: ignore my title; my mate letting me use his account (i’m new to WSO)
Following
You should 100% apply to spring weeks - I wish I did that in my 2nd year but it managed to work out in the end. And to my knowledge, no most BBs dont check for 2.1/uni grades for spring/summer, but your FT offer will be contingent on 2.1. Good luck!
Just say predicted 2.1 and you’ll be fine
congrats on bristol buddy
Hi - I went to one of the semi-targets you listed. Put expected grade: First Class Honours. I know countless people who did this without an actual first as after all it’s only an expected grade. Everyone is putting firsts, if you put a 2:1 you will stand out
Think there was an issue with the other message I posted - put expected degree: first class honours, a ton of my mates did that when they weren’t on a first as it’s just an expected grade. Not one of them had an issue and if you put 2:1 you will stand out negatively
Think there was an issue with the other message I posted - put expected degree: first class honours, a ton of my mates did that when they weren’t on a first as it’s just an expected grade. Not one of them had an issue and if you put 2:1 you will stand out
Think there was an issue with the other message I posted - put expected degree: first class honours, a ton of my mates did that when they weren’t on a first as it’s just an expected grade. Not one of them had an issue and if you put 2:1 you will stand out
In terms of what to apply for - apply for springs of all the firms you are eligible for but apply for summers for the others to gain the experience and then maybe say you are extending your degree after.
thanks for doing this~ i am a law student at a top 10 uni, does it matter for s&t if im from a non-quantitative background?
Lol this isn't an AMA or Q&A thread. But fyi no it doesn't, just have a solid why Markets/S&T answer.
Great advice thank you. It's so easy to get lost in American recruitment advice. Also know exactly the masterclass you're talking about lmao i thought the exact same thing.
Good post - I 'd like to see a buyside UG recruiting guide if you have the time.
So you don’t think it’s worth doing modelling courses to bump up your CV?
No
no
You do need to study technicals, don’t spend months on it, but if you don’t know the basics of the breaking into Wall Street guide and someone asks you, you’ll feel stupid.
re: networking, I have done 0 networking and got offers, however some of my friends swear by it, so you never know. I personally have recommended some students
Re: EBs, there are reasons to chose over certain BBs (although not GS/MS/JPM)
1) better pay
2) you like RX or want to exit into distressed HF
3) you have a strong preference for the team at a particular EB vs. your other BB choice
4) you want a lot of $1bn deal reps in a short period of time, and like the coverage + M&A combination
5) arguably I’d rather go to EVR / MOE / PJT / CV and obviously Roth/Laz than most groups at CS / UBS / DB and the debate is more vs. banks like Citi imo
This is fair; I didn't know shit and got away with it but better to be safe than sorry.
FWIW I meant decent BBs as in non-UBS/DB for IBD. S&T can be good at these places depending on desk.
American who successfully recruited in London. Got interviews at MFs, BBs, and EBs. Ended up going to MF PE RE. Here's some of my own thoughts.
1) Without networking, I wouldn't have gotten a single interview. Networking also helps you know more about the role and the various opportunities available in a certain field.
2) All places I interviewed at had some technical portion. Most asked me to do a paper LBO test or walk them through an LBO.
Recruiting isn't easy. I'm not saying that your post is wrong at all, your experiences might have been different. But recruiting and preparing for interviews, behavioral and technical (which in turn will help you get ahead on the job vs. knowing nothing), should not be taken lightly.
did you recruit for FT or SA positions?
Both. I was graduating this year but I know places may be open to having SAs convert to FT right after. I ended getting an off-cycle internship that converts to FT right after.
That's fair, but as someone has mentioned recruiting is different for everyone. Most people won't need to network or have an extensive technical aspect for a lot of firms. Again I can't speak for PE.
Learning technicals to do well on the job is slightly different to learning them for interviews though; but either way not discounting that some places will ask them.
I think you’re biased because you recruited for PE too. I have only ever had paper LBOs in PE associate interviews. I do agree that people ask technicals though especially for off cycle and FT
Sorry, yes I meant that interviews (in both PE and IB) were technical. I don't want to put an emphasis on LBOs, and I agree that maybe my PE interviews had more LBOs than IB, just saying that you should emphasize on preparing your technical interviews. I just disagree a lot that most sellside firms won't ask technicals. It will put a lot of uni students reading this with the wrong mindset when preparing for recruitment. You should know BIWS 400 qs up until the M&A and LBO parts cold. It actually gets pretty fun when you try to understand the concepts and apply them to real life scenarios while preparing. Not preparing for technicals is like someone going to the world cup without knowing what offside is... not trying to scare people off with this, but preparation is a better way to go to an interview vs. hoping that it's all behaviorals (this ain't no Big 4 audit gig lol).
Hey can I PM you? Not sure if I'm doing something wrong or it's just the road less travelled but it's quite tough to find people who went down the US --> UK path.
"some top hedge funds don't ask technicals"
Interested in hearing about which are these "top" hedge funds that don't ask technicals. They're only so many that recruit out of university. I did a fair bit of buyside recruiting in my final year and all of them were heavy on technicals.
Can confirm one of Point72/Citadel/DE Shaw didn't ask me anything technical for the SA.
Yeah I mean no one wants to work at Citadel bro it’s way worse than IB 😂 Even though for Asso I think the interviews are hard
Hey, first of all, thank you for your post. I'm an incoming Spring Weeks applicant without any relevant job experience, but I've done the Forage J.P. Morgan Virtual Internship Program and was wondering if it would be worth putting it on my CV? I've searched around, but most people recommended not to because it would be an automatic "ding". Is this true even if I'm applying for Spring weeks? Thank you so much for your input.
Won't be an auto ding but its not real experience nor useful and it would be misleading to label it as work ex... For springs you don't really need relevant work ex and it doesn't seem like banks value relevant work ex for spring weeks as much as they probably should. Any work experience and volunteering/ECs that make you look interesting and hard-working are useful. I CV checked a kid who got multiple springs and they didn't have anything relevant on it but it was well crafted.
I see, thank you so much. Also, would you recommend applying for Springs right after applications are opened? Or wait until October so that I can hopefully add a few more roles onto my CV
Here is the URL to what was Pan's London posting -
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/20-most-frequently-asked-questio…
Doesn't route to that page anymore.
Someone posted the correct link on here.
Hi,
with application season coming up, how is Frankfurt M&A experience usually viewed by UK HR? Asking since I have an SA at a US mid-market bank in FFM and would like to end up in London ultimately. Is it realistic to target EBs and BBs?
Yes it is,=.
I don’t know if my comment will get a reply/reaction from the person who posted this but I would like to get some advice from you, if that’s possible. I attended a non target and got a Business Management degree, was not able to get internships due to the fact that I did a year abroad and the rest two were online because of Covid. I don’t want to blame it all on Covid since I was immature and didn’t pay attention to internships (I didn’t even know what IB was). I am now a year out of graduation and I’m still trying to get a job. I have been struggling and by this point, I just want a job by now that is in Banking. If by any chance you come across by lengthy comment, please let me know what I should do because this unemployment phase is killing me. Thanks in advance.
Apply for a masters if you really want to get a banking gig and get an internship. Can't really break in without XP
Unfortunately the answer is: get your CV checked and then lower your standards.
Generally I thought this was a sensible list (particularly the points on networking) but I would take issue with the comment on EBs (and this is from someone that was at a non-elite London boutique... lol)
PJT / Evercore / HLHZ / Roths / Perella etc are all well regarded places with decent dealflow. From the PE recruiting side we would not ding someone or regard them as any less competent than a top BB, and would probably rank them over a mid-tier BB.
Gonna call you out on this. The consensus is that EBs are much weaker in London than mid-tier BBs so you are certainly a minority opinion. Getting MFPE from an EB outside of distressed is much harder here.
PJT? RSSG fair, I've already; but if you're talking about their M&A franchise... They covered 4 deals last year...
Consensus from students on WSO who have not yet worked in finance ?
I was recruiting in IB 2 yrs after my friends, and all of them advised me to go to some EBs I had offers for instead of mid/low tier BBs.
Once you’re on the job, it doesnt massively matter anyway as long as you get a foot in the door. In some process the Perella/EVR/MOE kid will beat the GS/MS kids and vice verca.
I don't know who establishes "consensus" - I can only speak to my own experience, which comes in three prongs. (i) we (London MF) get a ton of sell-side IMs from all of the EBs I mentioned, (ii) we hire from those firms and don't see a meaningful difference in quality of candidates and (iii) I myself moved to a MF from a low tier boutique (below Evercore etc).
A good candidate that's well prepped has an equal chance from any top firm, and given how short analyst stints are these days, what they actually work on during their time in IB is pretty irrelevant. It's kind of cool to put a multi-billion $ deal on your CV, but it's just bragging rights and has no bearing on the analyst's suitability to come and work for us.
I thought PJT Analysts in London only were generalists and that there is no pure RSSG?
Which firms (apart from BofA) hold ACs on weekends, or in January (apart from Barclays and JPM)? Doing an off-cycle at a European bank until christmas, but still want to recruit for SA. Gathered info on BofA, Barclays and JPM from last year's SA thread, so might not be relevant for this year anyway
Please can you direct me on how to get a cheap deal for Job test prep?
Some Unis have a deal with them, I’d check if yours does.
Oh no, I'm not a registered student - offer holder, anticipating A-level results
Share the account with 20 other people lol
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