For the first time sine 2013, no one made the HOF. Schilling was the top vote getter but he still did not make it and now he is asking to be removed from next year's ballot. There is no fixed criteria for getting into the HOF. It is very subjective but personally, I would not vote for any of the steroid users or Schilling. The data supports Schilling but some people do not like him due to his views about certain issues. For me, the standard should be the player was the best or near the best player among his peers at that time. Guys who have not made it, who I would have voted for for include Dale Murphy who won consecutive MVPs and Pete Rose.
Edit: Not decades. I am not sure where I got that from. The last time was 2013
No clue how Todd Helton didn’t get in. A buddy and I were talking about his stats last week and they are ridiculous! I get the whole “played in Colorado” but his splits home vs away are the same if not better in every stat category. Don’t know why it’s taken me this long to realize how good he actually was. Batted .372 one year and didn’t win mvp
this is a topic I feel very strongly about and have thought about often. I'm a lifelong baseball fan, and I think it's a travesty that people are bastardizing the character clause because Schilling has some disagreeable political views. I also think the "well they're cheaters" doesn't stand up to investigation. if you're going to hold new guys to that standard, go back and comb through the old guard. Ty Cobb literally stabbed a black guy because he was racially profiling and also sharpened the spikes on his cleats to cut up opposing players, Gaylord Perry and Whitey Ford were known for doctoring baseballs to get them to move in erratic ways. If those are not questionable character traits, I don't know what is.
what I do know is this - steroids don't turn you into barry bonds. if they did, his records would have been broken many times over, he is an elite athlete that is arguably the best position player the game has ever seen. I don't see how he is more morally objectionable than ty cobb. Enos Slaughter intentionally spiked Jackie Robinson and made the Hall of Fame, the hypocrisy is insane.
I am not saying you SHOULD go back and remove people because that is a terrible precedent, what I do think ought to be the standard for Cooperstown is merit. were you an incredibly valuable/dominant ballplayer/manager during your time? because here's the dirty little secret, plenty of guys take roids and never make it out of AA, so I have a firm belief that despite doping/cheating, the cream of the crop always rises to the top.
I'm also not saying I'm pro-doping. what I am saying is that there is no moral high ground when it comes to cheating, either you take the hard line and allow ZERO cheaters (which basically means there's no hall of fame aside from maybe Jackie Robinson, Honus Wagner, and Ted Williams), or you admit that in hindsight it's impossible to determine what's fair and what's not, and you should let people in based on statistics and merits, nothing else.
LSS - fuck baseball writers, it'd be a travesty if Bonds, Clemens, Pettite, Sosa, Ramirez, and others never make it to Cooperstown.
I agree. Is this why he isn't getting in? I mean, you could also argue that he has a huge positive profile because of the whole bloody sock thing, which isn't particularly reflective of his talents or lack thereof, either.
Well, Sammy Sosa also corked his bat. Whatever your views on steroids, that seems like a bigger and more unique deal. Bonds was convicted of obstruction of justice, as well - which means that even if you want to allege lots of steroid use in the 90s and 00s, he got caught and he lied about it. That seems like a "character clause" question to me.
Again, not saying Bonds doesn't deserve to be in (though I genuinely don't think Sosa does), just that it's more than a question of "he did steroids".
on Schilling, some writers say they won't admit anyone from the steroid era, I've heard others using some of his tweets as rationale.
on Sosa, is corking the bat more unfair than doctoring a ball by a pitcher? more unfair than pine tar? how many home runs did he hit before he was found with a corked bat and how many after? what was his strikeout ratio before and after? I'm not expecting you to have these answers, I'm just saying that if doctoring baseball equipment is what's keeping Sosa out of Cooperstown, then these people are hypocrites for not kicking out Perry and Ford as well.
on Bonds, is being untruthful worse than racially motivated violence?
I'm not saying what Bonds, Sosa, Perry, Ford, and others did isn't morally wrong, I would never encourage my children to do those things, but baseball is not the moral arbiter of society. what I am saying is that it's hypocritical to call out character flaws for some people but retain people in the hall with objectionable character traits. the character clause thing is just hypocritical as fuck and it bothers me
I strongly disagree with all of that. I think you have to consider the times in which they played. Cobb and others were racists when lots of people shared these views. Schilling's bizarre behavior is not consistent with the times in which he lives. I could be wrong but the guy implied support for attacking the Capitol. He also put out a comment chastising the people who vote for the HOF. His lack of character would make his election into the HOF a NO for me. It did not take long for the Mets to fire their GM Jared Porter. They literally let him go within 24 hours of the news that harassed and send explicit pics to a female reporter. If this happened 20 years ago, it would have been swept under the rug. Society has evolved and for the better.
I also disagree with letting steroid guys into the HOF. If a player is that good, he should not need to use steroids.
like I said to Ozymandia, we have different perspectives. I do not think the racially motivated violence I mentioned is excusable for any time period, but at the same time, it'd be a shame to keep Cobb out of Cooperstown because he was a dick. Cobb lacked character, Schilling lacks character, Bonds lacks character. All are great ballplayers, and for that reason alone I think they all belong in Cooperstown.
we will have to, it seems, agree to disagree :)
Weren't most of those stories about Cobb fabricated after the fact?
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