People’s Level of Maturity
Wonder how you guys think of the level of maturity of people in the industry.
Had the question after witnessing some 22 yo adults acting like kids (extremely messy home, don't know how to deal with emotions, or can't do some daily chores, etc)
Another thing is that I find "mature" (in my understanding) kids usually think a lot more (responsibilities, sense of fulfillment, and people around them), which could be a double bladed sword. As I find some of the more successful juniors to have the memory of a goldfish when it comes to mental stuff.
Full disclosure: I could be heavily biased because I'm not an American. Born and raised in another culture and lived alone through my four years of college.
I always heard people back home talking about how independent and mature the American kids are but end up being surprised by how they deal with things.
So Americans aren’t mature? Where exactly are you from?
people's republic of china my lord
hen hao
Bing chilling
Bro fuuuuuuuck you just because my apartment often looks like a war zone and I bottle up my emotions doesn't mean I'm not mature 😠 I know where everything I need is! /s
In all seriousness yes, I would agree a lot of younger men & women in the US are immature, mainly because our culture has extended institutional infantilization beyond even college with dumb shit like safe spaces, trigger warnings, and language policing. Social media has exacerbated this even further than the educational and social institutions, you'll be hard pressed to find an "average" American young adult that isn't glued to their phone on TikTok, IG, or Snapchat. They aren't exposed to opposing ideas unless it's forced on them in some way (often while they kick and/or scream in protest) and more and more people want the government taking care of things for them vs becoming truly self-sufficient. Terms "adulting" have become pretty common in the lexicon for even basic shit like cleaning, doing laundry, and running regular errands.
lol. I guess I'm curious about how common this is.
I updated my comment to give you a bit of a fuller picture. I'm part Chinese and have close friends who still lives in Shanghai so I understand your perspective somewhat.
You basically hit the nail on the head, but you can definitely see the impacts even within America generationally
It used to be you turned 18 and hit life on your own (most people didnt go to college decades ago, so this was when you started working and living on your own). People also got married much younger, leading to buying homes younger, having kids younger, etc. all of which force you to become more responsible as a result
In the last 30 years or so college became more commonplace and basically an extension of high school. For many, there is still little self discovery here because you are surrounded by peers supported by parents following a strict path etc.
Moving to cities like NYC or Chicago also delays adulthood. Again, this isn't all bad, you can have a ton of fun experiences this way and at your finger tips are services to deliver you food, transport you to different locations, do your laundry, etc. You dont really need to learn much outside of your job. You can still get drunk several nights of the week, have guilt free hookups, go get brunch hungover with friends, go to concerts and shows, etc. basically until your mid 30s in these cities and no one will tell you to grow up.
Internet has also attrbuted to this quite a bit. If you want a community you can find it anywhere, and if you want a shoulder to cry on you can also find it. In the past if you failed you were told to suck it up and get back to work. Now you can just go on Reddit and it's not your fault, it's the economy, it's the president, it's the rich, etc. You dont need to handle your emotions better. It's OK to perpetually need therapy, to be scared to go outside, to not have friends, to be weak.
People assume having a nice white collar job makes them a well rounded adult. It doesn't. It's a part, and there certainly is a correlation between good emotional intelligence / responsibility and climbing the ladder, but there are also a ton of people who just focus on that one aspect of their lives and intellectually/emotionally are still a child
Americans live completely coddled lives and dont even realize it.
Pretty much yeah, Americans are essentially the spoiled rich kids of the world that don't have to grow up till their late-20s/early-30s in many cases due to the bubble we exist in.
Not knowing anything outside your job is actually the point of capitalism and free exchange of goods and services. Optimal specialization and trade maximizes utility
Maybe I should put it in a different way. Like I expect to say some more mature cohorts for the industry, if that makes sense.
Born and raised in China, went to local school, and got bullied for a few years in a roll becuz my grades suck cock.
Not saying Americans are not mature, tho; more like not as tough as I thought.
How can you confidently say Americans are X or Americans are Y? We're both massive in population and relative diversity, there's no way you can confidently assert anything as broad as "maturity"
This is exactly what I was expecting. Should I just say people and not mention "Americans" at all?
Maybe refrain from making broad, baseless assumptions. Not to be harsh but its silly to have such an unspecific, unprovable debate in the first place
22 is still youth. I see people in their 30s and 40s acting childish.
messy home really doesn't matter. especially if you work long hours. what's the benefit of having sparkling clean home if you need to spend the only spare time you have mopping it?
having emotions is not bad. if you're a healthy young man with good level of testosterone, you'll get angry and such if somebody is messing with you. and people are having their first job at 22, so they're not used to it yet. at the end of their 20s they'll know how to behave cause they'll have more experience.
to get into high finance, you need to study a lot, so it's most likely they were not doing house chores at home, so they could focus on more important things like studying, engaging in hobbies, developing as a person.
u have a point. Could be that I have not figured out what the life shud look like yet
Don't really agree with any of the above. I do see lots of immaturity but mostly in regards to expectations and worldview. There is an obsession with prolonged youth.
To summarize, I think most young Americans see life like this: go to school, party, get into your 20s party/Sunday funday every weekend, Tinder one-night stands... nothing too serious, keep doing the same well into your early 30s and then WHAM! Suddently buy a house and start a family at age 36.
That buy a house and start a family adult mindset used to be for ages 20 to 25. Now, kids almost feel cheated if they didn't get to fuck around on Tinder for 15 years after college and drank themselves blind until 35.
EDIT: Also, what I think makes this particularly immature is that the "buy a house and start a family concept" doesn't come out of nowhere. Almost, everyone knows that it's coming but they just want to push it off as long as possible. In my opinion, that's the definition of immaturity. You know what it means to be an adult but nonetheless, you want to be a child as long as possible.
Blame media. 30s are 20s and 20s are new college, and you are selling yourself short if you dont leave college to go to a top 5 city and spend it hooking up with randos / drinking every week
Yup exactly. And it's such an elongated period of time. Looking back at my own life now that I have kids, I realize that I could have easily had them 5 years earlier and even earlier than that with some effort and planning. Do you really need 15 - 20 years of drinking and hooking up with randos to become fully actualized as a person? In hindsight, that looks like wasted time. Get it out of your system early and move on to becoming an adult.
“There is an obsession with prolonged youth” - so true.
Thx for the comments. Again, I would more likely describe my experience as a culture shock rather than somewhat of a flaming take on the general Americans. And I try to be objective when I am describing what I saw and thought of ever since I moved into the city. It could well be possible that a lot of the things people are used to here look kinda weird to me.
As I am from China, I will just talk about China: back in the nation of communist dictatorship, IMHO, many people of this age tend to think about a lot of stuff, including but definitely not limited to saving up for down payments, families and, for the underserved, extended families, and how others/ the society perceive them, etc. And people never hold back from calling someone a LOSER or make fun of those who are not as serious about their life. And I think the result is that people don't get offended easily and potentially live their life in a more stringent manner. Not saying this kind of culture is good tho; the level of toxicity and depression is through the roof at this point.
You think the nation whose policies led to a generation of spoiled only children will have more mature youth? If not, then this isn't just an American thing but a generational thing.
It is the generational thing for sure if you put them on a scale of time. I’m sure the new generation in China is way weaker than their parents generation. Bet it’s similar for this country and Europe.
But differences across cultures could still exist tho.
My hypothesis is that the age scale gets pushed further back/ delayed in developed markets. People in countries like the US have things like university and analyst programs and MBAs to go thru, where they have a perfectly socially acceptable phase to just fuck all and party until AT LEAST 22 (undergrad, basically). Cuz of all these nice, comfy little phases people get to stay in, people don't see themselves as true hardened adults until like 30 or smtg.
For thousands of years, humans were adults as soon as they were physically capable. You were expected to farm or do blacksmith work or whatever, at like 13 or smtg. Get married and start a family at 16, etc. And ofc, life expectancy rates were much lower so the pressure to adult the fuck up was super urgent to preserve the bloodline. This is still seen today in developing countries where the notion of college or further education doesn't exist, the line between kid and adult is blurry and people start farming the moment they're able to. They have the mindset of a hardened 30 y/o at age 16 or smtg. Idk.
It's societal progress tho
You mention “analyst programs” as part of the delayed adulthood progression - but truthfully and more so than ever nowadays, IB / consulting analyst programs are full time grown-up jobs which seat you comfortably at the top of the income distribution and set you up to stay there, if you take them seriously. Saw the difference at my bank between the silver spoon kids and the working class strivers. Latter group lived frugally, saved their bonuses, gunned for A2A (then VP, etc.) and never looked back. Built lives around their newly acquired six figure salary opportunities (while their friends and family are still struggling on minimum wage) and counted their blessings. It’s only the rich kids who thought the job was laughable / an extra college experience to play around with for 2 years.
Now, I think American culture also defines maturity in a weird way that is less about personal development and more about hitting superficial conformist milestones. You can be a married homeowner with children and still be completely immature, especially if you only did those things to hit some arbitrary timeline and not because you actually want / enjoy any of them.
lol 22. Brother if you live in a major metro then you can extend that fuck off and party phase until 32.
The expectation for the most part is to 'find yourself' aka sleep around , booze, travel, and delay major responsibilities basically all throughout your 20s untl maybe late 20s. As someone who did just that and turned out fine, cant really call the kettle black myself. But do cringe a bit at peers who clearly cant take bad feedback, cant process negative emotions, cant deal with conflicting opinions, want to brag about being a drunk uncle or wine aunt, etc.
IDK if it's truly progress or not. Time will tell.
yea I'm well aware of that and I see many people do it. Thing is, many people are very good at compartmentalizing their lives - you see them getting blackout drunk at the club but they still snag GS/ BX SA at the same time. I've tried it and I know now that I'm not good at compartmentalizing myself - lived the fast life once and nearly flunked out of uni. Not going to do it anymore because I know I just can't handle it
At OP, there isn't really one reason or the other, its a lot of reasons tied up together. I'll try to list some out buts its definitely not an exhaustive list:
- to begin, I don't everyone can overlook that people in their 20s/30s were raised on a steady idea of media that promoted the more ideal/"adventurous" life was to be a working adult without family or kids. Its no surprise that 30 year-olds who grew up on Seinfeld, Friends, Sex and the City or Entourage moved to cities to purpose drinking and hooking up. Put another way, these shows were about grown people acting immature, and that is in a way what we have now.
- I think people in their 20s/30s see after college/advanced degree as the finish line because everything from a young age is geared to that point. Once college is finished some need to let loose. Not that college is super stressful or hard compared to other countries youth, but a lot of these people (esp those who get jobs on the street) from day 1 of kindergarden throughout high school its grades, grades, grades, sports, extra curriculars, sports, sports, study, sports.
- I think in the USA we have somewhat of a parenting crisis. Not saying other countries don't, but we ether have helicopter parents who have kids that once they hit 23 they might be on their own for the first time and want to figure things out, or kids who didn't have good parents and still need to figure it out. So some kids never learned to clean up or put things away or work hard.
- a lot of kids go to college, get a lot debt, think they need to live a luxury live from day 1, and get into more financial trouble which is always hanging over their head when deciding to start a family. I think this couples with people not worrying about their careers or what they really want to do. I know a lot of people I went to college with who are doing something now they didn't need college for, but they went and paid +$200k anyway.
I think the structure thing is interesting. Would love to talk to boomers on this, but I have the feeling their lives were much less structured. Parents, especially fathers, were more hands off (for better and for worse). All they knew was at 18 it was time to move on. At that age it was a decision to get a local blue collar job, join military, or go to university if they so choose
Compared to millennials they basically had the 'desired life' laid out for them. Parents gave a college or bust mentality, focused on grades, maybe grad school, and a lot of kids got to 22-24 realizing the path they are walking might not even be their own
As for helicopter parents, I am amazed at both the number of peers I have that live at home with parents and how acceptable this is mainstream, at least online. If you try to berate anyone for this you will hear so many fucking excuses about the economy, cost of living, the rich, blah blah blah. Of course in private the truth is shared and if you live at home as an adult you are a loser with a giant L.
If your kid is past 25 and you are letting them live at home you are enabling their self destructive tendencies plain and simple. For 1-2 years after college whatever, use that time if you want to save money for a house down payment or pay off student loans. Maybe for one year as an adult past 23 if you get knocked on your ass from divorce, job loss, etc. then of course there is a safety net. But I know several people with good paying jobs who live at home into mid to late 20s completely delaying adulthood. There is nowhere where someone cant live on their own if they actually put some hard work in.
Also a combination of issues;
- most kids live at home because its a better life than living on their own. Most stay home don't cook, shop for supplies, have to take care of the property or pay bills.
- Most stay home because its a better living situation than living on their own. For example, if the parents have some level of wealth, they probably have a better set up than a 700 sf apartment.
- I think a lot of parents don't know what to do when their kids are gone, so they keep them around as long as possible. Some even let their kids gf/bf stay at their house, so whats the point of moving.
- Kids are way more online/connected, meaning, you can stay in your room and have experiences vs having to venture into the world.
Not got time for an in-depth comment, but this is an interesting discussion - keen to hear others' views. Definitely think it's a function of delaying the things that in the past would lead someone to be more mature (home, marriage, kids) because of their affordability. That said, I also think covid messed a lot of people up and lead them to not learn how to carry themselves properly, e.g., had an intern put their hood up at their desk in the office today...
Definitely a valid question and an interesting topic. Instead of addressing some of the high level issues (widely practiced helicopter parenting, delusional social media trends, covid stunting eq growth) contributing to this phenomenon, I’ll keep it simple.
The details you provided, specifically messy homes and general day to day incompetence, could be a result of these people never having to attend to such tasks previously. The maid picked up the laundry, housekeeper handled the yard, nanny made lunch - their parents essentially relieved them of as much responsibility as possible. An affluent lifestyle enables one to more or less solely focus on something like getting into IB, versus pulling weight around the house. No landscaping, laundry, dishes, general chores, the list goes on. To use your words, they might not have ever experienced a sense of fulfillment from responsibilities/hard work outside of school/career, and maybe even that’s been a predetermined path so isn’t truly fulfilling.
Someone else here noted that the rich kids were the ones who laughed at the job for two years while the hungrier kids were all over it knowing it’s a legit wealth building opportunity. I suspect the 22 yr olds you witnessed might trend towards the former. Point of reference - over a decade of east coast private school with friends just like this.
Trust me, the average 20-something in the US is a fucking joke in terms of maturity. He'll be eaten alive in, let's say, Moscow.
Old enough to have FWBs,OF,sugarbook account but still considered kids by many. Funny times
indeed
"22 yo adults"
This reads like an oxymoron to me. I know they are technically adults but as far as I'm concerned 22 is still a kid. Not expecting maturity from them at all. Some professionalism maybe but that's about it. And I say this being not that much older than that. Lot of people are still figuring things out at 22 and at that age it's still very much a transitional phase in your life because they likely just started working. Bit transformative there so I would somewhat expect slightly lower maturity at least in today's day and age.
Hi, Raijin,
This is Fujin. How are you
Stormy as usual Fujin, how about you?
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